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Is Jesus An Archangel

There are some people who believe and teach that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. What are your thoughts?

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"I do not know what the translators of the Geneva Bible were thinking when they put that footnote in their Bible." lee1538 (1)

The writers of the Geneva Bible footnotes are not alone in their views regarding Michael:

International Bible Dictionary Illustrated:

"Michael...in Dan. 10:13, 21, 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in Rev. 12:7-9 as the leader of the angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant." Plainfield, N. J., Logos International, 1977, page 35.
---scott on 4/19/12


"I do not know what the translators of the Geneva Bible were thinking..." lee1538 (2)

Adam Clarke (Methodist) in his multi-volume commentary (not his one volume abridged edition by Ralph Earle), regarding the occurrence of "Michael" in Revelation 12:7-10: "By the personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." New York and Nashville, Abingdon Press, Vol. 6, page 952.

Langes Commentary On The Holy Scriptures: (on Revelation 12:7-10):

"The warlike form of Christ." A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal, and Homiletical, with special references to Ministers and Students, Johann Peter Lange, 1802-1884,
---scott on 4/19/12


"I do not know what the translators of the Geneva Bible were thinking..." lee1538 (3)

Matthew Henry, (in his unabridged and concise commentaries, On Revelation 12:9):

"2. The parties - Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant [Compare Isaiah 9:6: "the Messenger (Greek, aggelos, "angel" of great counsel" (reference to the Messiah), Septuagint, LXX.] and his faithful followers..."

John Wesley (Methodist) - Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (On Daniel 10:21):

"...When Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation."
---scott on 4/19/12


"You said: God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ." StrongAxe

No. the writers of the Geneva Study Bible said this.

"Also, Hebrew (i.e. original) Isaiah 6:9 says "peleh yoetz", NOT "malach" (angel).." StrongAxe

I cited the (Greek) LXX..."angel". BTW..."Ya-ahts", not "yoetz"
---scott on 4/18/12


StrongAxle - //How can you know that? It is pure extrapolation based on a theologicl perspective, being neither stated directly, nor implied by the context. You may argue that other verses state it (so this one implies it), but this one carries no such implication on its own.

What Scott quoted from the Geneva Bible is a footnote. Suggest that you find a Geneva Bible with footnotes and you can read that yourself.

The Geneva Bible with footnotes is available free on the internet.

Yes, I do not know what the translators of the Geneva Bible were thinking when they put that footnote in their Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/18/12




"Hebrew (i.e. original) Isaiah 6:9 says "peleh yoetz", NOT "malach" (angel). Strongaxe

The Greek word for angel is a translation of the Hebrew, (construct case, = English possessive case, as in The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Volume 4/ Isaiah - Malachli, Edited by John R. Kohlenberger III.
---scott on 4/18/12


Francis and scott, Stop committing blasphemy and idolatry! Christ is God, not Michael: Michael is not Christ, only Jesus is the Christ. No where in scripture does it read that the archangel Michael, nor Gabriel, nor Raphael, nor Uriel, nor any cherubim nor seraphim were the incarnation of the Lord nor were any of them Jesus Almighty. There is only One Lord God Almighty, and it is not any angel, nor Mary, nor Peter, nor Paul, nor Buddha, nor any other creature, but Christ Jesus alone, name above every name, he alone is the proven Lord God Almighty, and he alone is worthy of worship.
---Eloy on 4/18/12


Scripture reads He comes with the clouds, and he appeared as a pillar of cloud by day. So does this mean God is a cloud? No, God forbid. Scripture reads: Here, he comes with ten thousands of his saints. So does this mean that the saint is the Lord? No, God forbid. Was Michael born of the virgen Mary in Bethlehem of Judea, from the line of Judah? No, God forbid. Only Jesus is God, and Jesus created Michael. Jesus is the only Lord God, and there is none besides him, none.
---Eloy on 4/18/12


scott:

First, Daniel was written to Israel. Second, you said: God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ,

How can you know that? It is pure extrapolation based on a theologicl perspective, being neither stated directly, nor implied by the context. You may argue that other verses state it (so this one implies it), but this one carries no such implication on its own.

Also, Hebrew (i.e. original) Isaiah 6:9 says "peleh yoetz", NOT "malach" (angel).



francis:

Yes, he will descend WITH the voice of an archangel - but also WITH the sound of a trumpet, and his voice is LIKE the sounds of many waters. Is Jesus an ocean? Is he a trumpet?
---StrongAxe on 4/18/12


"Daniel 12:1...John 5:28...1 Thessalonians 4:16:
Can you tell me based on these three resurrecton scriptures whose voice raises the dead?"
---francis on 4/18/12


You have the pieces of the puzzle/mystery Francis, but you have no idea how they fit together. The Arch Angel Michael heralds/announces/"voices" the arrival of the LORD (THE KING OF GLORY) as he comes in the clouds. As He did with Lazarus, Jesus "shouts" & the dead are raised. Believe it or not, it is Jesus (GOD), not Michael who raises the dead! Only Jesus, the Son of God can raise the dead Francis! FYI, That's how it all comes together.
---Leon on 4/18/12




Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,

LETS SEE WHO ACTUALLY STANDS UP FOR GOD'S PEOPLE AT THAT TIME

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

MICHAEL or JESUS STANDING UP FOR GOD'S PEOPLE?
---francis on 4/18/12


I can see that the "angel of the LORD" (Genesis 22:11) could be Jesus. Well . . . Paul calls Jesus "the man" or "the Man", in 1 Timothy 2:5. But we easily understand that this does not mean Jesus is only human. So, we also can see that if Jesus in places is "the angel of the LORD", this does not mean Jesus is only an angel.

Jesus is "the Son of God" (in John 4:15). A human son, "usually", is not created by his father (c: > each time, in the early scripture, where we see that a man is someone's father, it says the father "begot" his son, not that he created him!

Jesus is "the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (in John 1:14)
---willie_c: on 4/18/12


scott, stop blaspheming and substituting your own NonBiblical attachment of Christ the Creator in the place of the Bibilical creature Michael, which Christ the Creator created to do his will.
---Eloy on 4/18/12


Francis, Exactly, it is spelled out, The voice of whom? the voice of THE ARCH ANGEL! NOT THE VOICE JESUS, BUT CLEARLY THE VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL. And whom does scripture say which arch angel? Precisely, MICHAEL! NOT JESUS CHRIST, but MICHAEL. These are two separate beings, #1 Christ is The Creator, and #2 Michael is an arch angel that Christ created.
Michael is NOT The Creator, but MIchale is a creature.
---Eloy on 4/18/12


Justin Martyr (ca. 160 A.D.):

Justin quoted Is. 9:6 as "The Angel of mighty counsel". "Dialogue With Trypho," ch. LXXVI.

---scott on 4/18/12


Also:

Christ [is] Lord, and God the Son of God,appearing formerly in power as Man:
---Ruben on 4/18/12


scott//God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel."
---
So we could conceiveably translate John 3:16 as

For God so loved the world, that he gave Michael the Archangel, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Doubtful if it would have really cost God the Father much in having one of His angels pay the price for our sin.

We can conclude that the view Jesus was also the Archangel Michael is something shrouded in confusion but should not our doctrine be paramount?
---lee1538 on 4/18/12


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GENEVA STUDY BIBLE:

Daniel 12:1

"And at that {a} time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

(a) The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel."
---scott on 4/18/12


---Eloy on 4/18/12

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:29 .. unto the resurrection of life, ...resurrection of damnation.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shoutWITH A SHOUT , with the VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL , and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Can you tell me based on these three resurrecton scriptures whose voice raises the dead?
---francis on 4/18/12


Previous (Is) citation was actually Malachi 3:1 LXX:

Isaiah 9:6 LXX:

"A child is born to us, a son is given to us. His power is on his
shoulders. They will call his name "Angel of great counsel, mighty God, prince of peace, father of the world to come"
(Septuagint variant of Codex Aleph, A reading)

Justin Martyr (ca. 160 A.D.):

Justin quoted Is. 9:6 as "The Angel of mighty counsel". "Dialogue With Trypho," ch. LXXVI.

COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (A.D. 451): "...they shall call his name Angel of great counsel..." From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2,Vol. 14. Schaff and Wace. (Christian Literature Publishing).
---scott on 4/18/12


Isaiah 9:6 LXX:

Douay-Rheims Version:


"Behold I send [tov aggelos, ANG.geh.lahs] my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the [aggelos] angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts."

Darby:

"Behold, I send my [aggelos] messenger...and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts."
---scott on 4/18/12


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Francis, Jesus the Creator created Michael the creature to do his will, Michael is not Jesus, Michael is an angel sent by Jesus. Just as the Church is not God, but the Church is created by God and comissioned to carry out his will.
---Eloy on 4/18/12


---Eloy on 4/17/12
Check out ALL my scriptures where i show Jesus to be doing the exact same things which michael should be doing. including th evoice thatraises the dead

---Rob on 4/17/12
If you think i am saying that Jesus is a created being you are misstaken. Jesus is God.

---christan on 4/17/12
In 1 Thess 4:16 and John 5:28 whose voice is heard that raises the dead?

---StrongAxe on 4/17/12
Exodus 3:2-4 and John 1:18


---Mark_Eaton on 4/17/
I left out Jude actually. Michael- ONE ( the first) a reference to his headship over all the created being. Also because I gave so many text showing that Michael is Jesus it would be understood that this Michael who is the first of the princes is Jesus
---francis on 4/18/12


scott and francis, you sure have a full load of smoke bombs tucked away for a day like this, right?

Ruben, you say "as man, training us not to sin". Since when did Jesus become flesh and His mission was "training us not to sin"? You speak as though God wants to save the sinner in the flesh when He already condemned the flesh. Remember, "dust you are, dust you shall return"?

You are deceptively skillful in attempting to say the flesh can still be justified by works.
---christan on 4/17/12


scott, Read THE HOLY BIBLE, and not the surfeit of books containing blasphemy and foolish lies written by condemned sinners.
---Eloy on 4/17/12


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Francis, I am going to ask you a straight forward question. I want to see if you will answer the question, or if you will avoid answering the question by dodging it with with something else.

Francis, what does the Bible say in Hebrews 1:1-5?
---Rob on 4/17/12


Very nice, Mark Eaton. Very nice.
---CraigA on 4/17/12


Clement of Alexandria, (Church "Father", 153-217 C. E.):

"Well, they say that God pervades all being while we call Him solely Maker, and Maker by the Word. They were misled by what is said in the book of Wisdom: `He pervades and passes through all by reason of His purity' (Wisd. vii. 24) since they did not understand that this was said of Wisdom, which was the first of the creation of God. [SOFIAS THS PRWTOKTISTOU TWi QEWi]"

The Stromata, or miscellanies, book V Chpt XIV Greek Plagiarism from Hebrew.
---scott on 4/17/12


Mark V, you wrote you are schocked by Francis answers and questions.

Please google "WHAT SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST WON'T TELL YOU" and you will learn much more about SDA's. You will also learn things they don't want you to know about them, until they have you brainwashed and indoctrinated with their FALSE TEACHINGS!
---Rob on 4/17/12


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francis, you give "Scripture backing" (according to your interpretation) of John 5:28,29, Daniel 12:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and yet not one of those verses explicitly relate the arch-angel Michael and Christ as one. And when that happens, you're lying and worse still, you bear false witness against the Word.

Just like those who continue to express there's 'free-will' when Christ's simple declaration refute their understanding in John 6:44,65 - which the Lord declares these people to be liars. And the same can be said of your understanding. Your "imagination" of seeing something is prove that mankind is fallen and in darkness, until God shows mercy and shine His glorious light.
---christan on 4/17/12


One cannot make the Bible consistent with the theory that "Jesus is an angel" without making alterations:

Colossians 1:16-17 [NWT]: "by means of him all [other]* things were created"
(*added by Jehovah's Witnesses)

Luke 4:10 (also Matthew 4:6) "He shall give his [other]* angels charge over thee"
Hebrews 1:4 "Being made so much better than the [other]* angels"
Hebrews 1:6 "let all the [other]* angels of God worship him"
(* I had to add these here to make the Bible fit this theory)

Hebrews 1:4-8,13-14 is very specific about Jesus NOT being just another angel.



francis:

Can you show a scripture where Jesus is called an angel?
---StrongAxe on 4/17/12


Can you tell me based on these three resurrecton scriptures whose voice raises the dead?
---francis on 4/17/12

You forgot this Michael connection in Daniel 10.

Michael is called "your prince" to Israel in Dan 10:21 the same as in Dan 12:1. Some consider Michael the protector of Israel.

But he is also called "one of the princes" indicating that Michael is NOT unique as Jesus is.

Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there with the kings of Persia
---Mark_Eaton on 4/17/12


Clement of Alexandria, (Church "Father", 153-217 C. E.):

"Formerly the older people [the Israelites] had and old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an angel, "

The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, (herein after simply, ANF) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Vol. II (2), page 224, reprinting of August, 1980.
---scott on 4/17/12

The Lord ministers all good and all help, both as man and as God: as God, forgiving our sins, and as man, training us not to sin. (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 3)
---Ruben on 4/17/12


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The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, (herein after simply, ANF) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Vol. II (2), page 224, reprinting of August, 1980.
---scott on 4/17/12

Scott,

In the same chapter he said:

But our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word, who is the guide of all humanity.
---Ruben on 4/17/12


Clement of Alexandria, (Church "Father", 153-217 C. E.):

"Formerly the older people [the Israelites] had and old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an angel, but the fresh and new people [the Christians] has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared, and fear turned into love, and that mystic angel is born - Jesus. "

The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, (herein after simply, ANF) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Vol. II (2), page 224, reprinting of August, 1980.
---scott on 4/17/12


Leon, A-men. Metaphors and figures of speech are used to aid teaching, they are not literalities. For example, Jesus and we Christians are called the lambs of God, but that does not mean that we walk on four hooves as a sheep. And angel and archangel are "faces of God or faces of heaven", but that does not mean that they are God. Angels are creatures, and Jesus is The Creator: Jesus created Michael, Michael is not Jesus but instead a representative sent by Jesus to do his instruction.
---Eloy on 4/17/12


---Leon --christan on 4/17/12

I gave many scriptures EXAMPLE:
John 5:28 the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:29 .. unto the resurrection of life, ...resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shoutWITH A SHOUT , with the VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL , and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Can you tell me based on these three resurrecton scriptures whose voice raises the dead?
---francis on 4/17/12


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Wow francis, is it really that hard to believe Jesus Christ is God?
At this point, it really just sounds like you just dont want to believe it.

But, didnt Christ tell you this would happen? No?
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

You think by following the law it will lead to God, right?
So you dont have to understand it, just do it.
This is what I heard from you time and time again.

So, how is it you cant see Christ is God?
There is only one God, you know!
Not God and (a god.)

Even the Jews, know! How?
Who can forgive sin, but God alone?
Think this is a lie?
Peace!
---TheSeg on 4/17/12


Malachi 3:1 LXX

"Behold I send [tov aggelon ANG.geh.LAHN mou] my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts." Douay-Rheims Bible

"I send [tov aggelon ANG.geh.LAHN mou] my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts." Darby
---scott on 4/17/12


"Names for Jesus:
Son of God
Son of Man
Jesus meaning saviour
Christ meaning messiah
Emanuel meaning God with us
Michael meaning who is like (God) the father
Great prince*

Prince of peace
Arch Angel meaning chief of the angels
Angel of the Lord/God meaning messenger sent by God (the father)
"
---francis on 4/17/12


UNSCRIPTURAL, UNTRUE, FALSE DOCTRINE. *The Arch-angel Michael (a being created by God) is a "principal", chief (captain), lord (commanding general) over all the angels. His delegated authority (lordship) is given by the Omnipotent authority of the "LORD", i.e., Almighty God (Father, Son/"JESUS" & Holy Spirit).
---Leon on 4/17/12


scott, quoting John Calvin and the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia with regards to whether Michael was Christ or not means nothing. They are commentaries and not the absolute of God's Truth. As Scripture does not relate Michael to Christ as the same person, we should not even go there.

Only God decides what He wants to reveal to us for our learning, and most definitely He's silent on this. Moses admonishes, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29
---christan on 4/17/12


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Francis: AGAIN, what you say isn't true. English bibles follow the Jewish practice of substituting the word "LORD" for Yahweh, spelled in upper-case to distinguish it from lower-case "lord".

Michael introduced himself as leader of the LORD's army. He didn't say he was "the LORD" (GOD). He addressed himself as "am I", not "I AM" (GOD).

In Hebrew, Michael means "who is like God" (mi-who, ke-as or like, El-deity), which is traditionally interpreted as a rhetorical question: "Who is like God?" (which expects an answer in the negative) to imply that no one is like God. In this way, Michael is reinterpreted as a symbol of humility before God.
---Leon on 4/17/12


"Michael meaning who is like (God) the father" francis

O please, do show us the Scripture support for this. I need to see it. Please o please.

And if it's not in the Scripture, you are now adding into the Word, which God promised, He will add on the plagues unto you.
---christan on 4/17/12


John Calvin: (Regarding "Michael" at Daniel 12:1):

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." Commentaries on the book of the Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Dnl." 1930, Vol. 3, page 2048:
---scott on 4/17/12


Names for Jesus:

Son of God
Son of Man
Jesus meaning saviour
Christ meaning messiah
Emanuel meaning God with us
Michael meaning who is like ( God) the father
Great prince
Prince of peace
Arch Angel meaning chief of the angels
Angel of the Lord/ God meaning messenger sent by God ( the father)
---francis on 4/17/12


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But the one you need to examine more closely is the one in Hebrews
---lee1538 on 4/16/12

Jesus is also in charge of the angels
Hebrews 1:6 let all the angels of God worship him.
---francis on 4/16/12

As you can see I have looked at it already.

All the angels ( created beings) worshiped Jesus/ the creator

That verse only tells us that Jesus is God, and God only should receive worship.

This is further proof that another name for Jesus is THE ANGEL of the lord/ God. Because this Angel of the lord is the only angel to accept* worship

Do we agree that Jesus is also THE ANGEL OF GOD/ THE LORD?

If Jesus is THE ANGEL of God, can there be any other angels above him?
---francis on 4/17/12


Rob, I am shocked by francis answers and questions. I did not know that SDA's believe Jesus was an angel, I thought only Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons believed that. I learned something new today. I have been answering francis and opposing his views but didn't think that he could possibly believe that. That is why I said before that cults most important duty is to attack the divinity of Christ. Once they believe what they do, hardly nothing can ever change them. They are saved by an angel. That takes the cake.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/12


Francis //I made several post I put them up for examination
---
But the one you need to examine more closely is the one in Hebrews that speaks of Jesus being far superior to angels and the fact that God commanded all the angels to worship Him.

Agree that God did not send an angel into the world to die for our sins on the Cross. As angels are created beings, that would have cost God little if anything to atone for the sins of man.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


---Mark_Eaton on 4/16/12
I am sure that in what I wrote I said that Jesus is God. and also THE ANGEL OF THE LORD/ GOD. Angels had to watch over him because he took the form of human and gave up his divinity.



---Rob on 4/16/12
No one has shown any such text all they say is that Jesus is not an angel ( created being). But the Bible shows that Jesus is THE ANGEL OF GOD. The bible also says that jesus is incharge of the angels which makes him THE ARCH Angel

Is it the word ANGEL, ARCH, or the name MICHAEL that throws people off. Does Emanual throw people off also? where in the NT is Jesus called Emanual?


---christan on 4/16/12
I made several post I put them up for examination
---francis on 4/16/12


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Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.



Ye neither know me, nor my Father
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/16/12


Now can ANYONE who me one verse that says
---francis on 4/16/12

How about some Scripture and deductive reasoning? Specifically about Jesus not being Michael the Archangel.

When Jesus was tempted, the devil ask Jesus to jump from the roof of the temple:

Luke 4:10-11 "For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."

We need to straighten out the pronouns in the verses but I read it as "God will give His angels charge of Jesus to keep and watch over Him".

Therefore, if Jesus was only an angel and not the Son of God, why would God send other angels to watch over Him?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/16/12


Francis, you wrote can ANYONE show me one verse that says Michael is not Jesus.

Francis, others have shown you many verses in Hebrews Chapter one, but you reject them.

This probably because in the Bible Translations most people use, Hebrews Chapter one is completely diferrent from what is written in the SDA Clear Word Bible.
---Rob on 4/16/12


francis, challenging anyone to bring forth Scriptures to confirm your unbelief is an act of stupidity and ignorance. Since you know already know that Scriptures doesn't declare "The angel of the lord/God is never Jesus and that Michael is not Jesus", you want to use this challenge to prove your point? Well, what it proves is, you're ignoramus.

If Michael was Jesus and vice-versa, why did Scripture tell us, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS", why not Michael then since He already have a name? Michael is an angel and Jesus is God, that alone will tell you the difference in their "status".
---christan on 4/16/12


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Your comments show a lack of sufficient scriptural insight to understand, in proper context, what the Bible says on the matter. YOU can learn if YOU want to know the truth.
---Leon on 4/16/12
I have used all but one scripture related to michael and Jesus.

That is all anyone can do. we have to use what is available

I rest my case. Now the burden in on you to go back through all my evidence one by one and show that my comments show a lack of sufficient scriptural insight

Just saying michael is not Jesus is no proof, one has to show it to be so

I have made my case. I put it up for examination for anyone to make a scriptural case against it
---francis on 4/16/12


"...can ANYONE [tell] me one verse [saying]
1: The angel of the lord [lower-case]/God is never Jesus
2:...Michael [isn't] Jesus
3: ...show me how Gabriel (a created being) & Michael differ
4: ...catholics: show me how [R]aphael & Michael differ"
---francis on 4/16/12


The burden of proof is on YOU Francis since 1.) "You claim" the angel of the Lord (lower-case) is Jesus. 2.) "You claim" Michael is Jesus 3.) "You claim" the Arch-angel Gabriel is different from the Arch-angel Michael...etc.

Your comments show a lack of sufficient scriptural insight to understand, in proper context, what the Bible says on the matter. YOU can learn if YOU want to know the truth.
---Leon on 4/16/12


If you think that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then you are an Arian, and not a Christian.

This is the principal reason why SDAs must be baptized when they come to Christ's Orthodox Church.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/16/12


Now can ANYONE who me one verse that says
1: The angel of the lord/ God is never Jesus
2: That Michael is not Jesus
3: Please show me, how Gabriel ( a created being) and Michael differ
4: For catholics show me how raphael and Michael differ
---francis on 4/16/12


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"To start with what does " ANGEL" mean? Does it mean messenger of God, or does it mean created being?" francis

What's in the meaning of a name has nothing to do with whether an angel is a created being or not. You are simply trying to confuse and not educate. But if you were to ask, is an angel a spiritual being or a fleshly being, that would make a little more sense.

Now to answer your question about an angel, of course they are a created spiritual being from God. Outside of the Godhead, John said "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." Included is Satan and his cohorts!
---christan on 4/16/12


"Dan. 10:21...prophecies...are revealed to Daniel by an angel. The angel says only he & michael [???] can reveal this message[.]

Matt. 24:3...Jesus revealed what only Daniel's angel & Michael [???] can reveal..."
---francis on 4/16/12

"...Jesus was sent by the [F]ather[.] (Jn. 5:30) This makes Jesus THE ANGEL OF GOD/THE LORD [???] as in several OT passages[.]

MICHAEL means who is God...who is like God...(Jn. 14:9)...[J]esus is like the [F]ather/like God.

ARCH mean[s] chief...[M]ichael is [chief] of the angels[.]... Jesus is also [chief] of the angels[.] Heb. 1:6..."
---francis on 4/16/12


Francis: Untrue! You are seriously confused...
---Leon on 4/16/12


Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

In this passage the prophecies of the end times are revealed to Daniel by an angel. The angels says that only he and michael can reveal this message

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them...

So Jesus revealed what only Daniel's angel and Michael can reveal. I have shown several passages of prophecy about Michael which only Jesus fulfilled
---francis on 4/16/12


The word angel does not mean created being, it means MESSENGER

More specifically it is a messenger of God, sent by God to call people to Christ or God

Jesus was sent by the father
John 5:30 the Father which hath sent me.

This makes Jesus THE ANGEL OF GOD/ THE LORD as in several OT passages

MICHAEL means who is God, or who is like God.
The name God in the NT is mainly reserved for the father.
John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father,

So jesus is like the father / like God.

ARCH mean chief or in charge of.

No doubts that michael is in charge of the angels he is called ARCH ANGEL

Jesus is also in charge of the angels
Hebrews 1:6 let all the angels of God worship him.
---francis on 4/16/12


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Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD!
and my servant whom I have chosen:
That ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:
Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me!
Isa_43:11!

Isa_44:6 I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God!

Isa_45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

Isa_45:6 that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isa 46:9 for I am God, and there is none else, I am God, and there is none like me,


Ask yourself is Archangel Michael, God?
No right, he is an Archangel named, Michael.
Peace!
---TheSeg on 4/16/12


The word angel does not mean created being, it means MESSENGER

More specifically it is a messenger of God, sent by God to call people to Christ or God

Jesus was sent by the father
John 5:30 the Father which hath sent me.

This makes Jesus THE ANGEL OF GOD/ THE LORD as in several OT passages

MICHAEL means who is God, or who is like God.
The name God in the NT is mainly reserved for the father.
John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father,

So jesus is like the father / like God.

ARCH mean chief or in charge of.

No doubts that michael is in charge of the angels he is called ARCH ANGEL

Jesus is also in charge of the angels
Hebrews 1:6 let all the angels of God worship him.
---francis on 4/16/12


Michael will do, is always done by Jesus. And who ever the bible says Michael is, Jesus is also
---francis on 4/14/12

except for in the garden before cruxifiction Jesus ask God to please, if possible, save humanity another way by saying "please remove this cup (of wrath) from me." Jesus being God not an angel has the ability to go to the Father with request to change His mind and choose to follow or not to follow the Father. An angel does not have the ability to choose or not to choose. This is from Gen. CH 1 lets make man is our image. The image of choice of love.
---Scott1 on 4/16/12


Francis, I agree with your Joshua arguments except you are proving that God is triune. You have proven the existance of The Son "person" of the trinity with "...THE angel of the Lord...". Micheal and Gabriel the two archangels are different entities.
---Scott1 on 4/16/12


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---Leon on 4/15/12
Here is how we know that this leader of God's army is God himself.

Joshua 5:14-15

1: Joshua worshiped him and called him Lord ( when John in revelation did the same to an angel John ws forbidden. ) Only God is to be worshiped

2: Being in the presence of God the place where Joshua stood was Holy ( not so with created beings)

3: Joshua submits to him as a servant

4: Other passages:
Exodus 23:20-12
In this passage the angel can forgive sin, something only God can do

Exodus 14:14
The LORD ( not a created being) shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
---francis on 4/15/12


"What is the meaning of the name "Michael"?
Most often a name meaning tells a story! Like Em[m]anuel [God with us]!"
---1st_cliff on 4/15/12


In Hebrew, Michael means "who is like God" (mi-who, ke-as or like, El-deity), which is traditionally interpreted as a rhetorical question: "Who is like God?" (which expects an answer in the negative) to imply that no one is like God. In this way, Michael is reinterpreted as a symbol of humility before God.
---Leon on 4/15/12


What is the meaning of the name "Michael"?
Most often a name meaning tells a story!
Like Emanuel!
---1st_cliff on 4/15/12


"...the leader/captian of God's army is God/the Lord (Jesus):

Jos. 5:14 And he said, Nay, but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith MY LORD [lord] unto his servant?..."
---francis on 4/15/12


Fran: What you say isn't true. English bibles follow the Jewish practice of substituting the word "LORD" for Yahweh. It's spelled in upper-case to distinguish it from lower-case "lord".

Michael introduced himself as leader of the LORD's army. No more or less! He didn't say he was "the LORD" (GOD). He addressed himself as "am I", not "I AM" (GOD).
---Leon on 4/15/12


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Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble

When it comes to the time of trouble do we see Michael or Jesus standing up for his people?

Rev 9:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:13 and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So once again the prophecy of Michael standing for his people is fulfilled by Jesus
---francis on 4/15/12


Michael the Archangel did not take flesh, was not crucified for me, and did not rise from the dead for my salvation.

This is one of the many things that are wrong with SDA.

The Saturday Sabbath issue is the LEAST of their problems.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/15/12


Does not the view that jesus was also the Archangel Michael prior to being born of the virgin Mary indicate that He is less than the ONLY begotten Son of God the Father?

Did the fullness of the Godhead dwell in a being that was an angel?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And contrary to the Adventist view, Jesus was sent into the world into a human being would indicate that there is an entity that indwells man called a spirit as Jesus was that spirit that took on a human form.

And is not a spirit upon death of the body a conscious entity to goes back to God who gave it as in the case of Jesus who placed his spirit in God's hand when He expired?
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


Rob, Michael is referred to as "one of the 'chief' (primary) 'princes' (rulers)." and as "The archangel [or chief of the angels]". Dan.10:13>Jude.1:9
Jesus is referred to as "Only begotten Son of God, seated at the right Hand of God, where angels are subject to Him, as "head over every ruler and authority" John 3:16, 18>1 John 4:9, Mar 16:19>1Pe 3:22>Col 2:10 .
And "to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And "When He bringeth in the first begotten into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hbr 1:5,6
---joseph on 4/15/12


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In this passage the leader / captian of God's army is God/ the Lord ( Jesus):

Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay, but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith MY LORD unto his servant?

In this passage the leader of God's army is Michael the Archangel:

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,

So Either Jesus is michael, or God's army has two different leaders

Daniel 4:34 the most High..
he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,

Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
---francis on 4/15/12


There are some that would like to identify Jesus as being the Archangel Michael,however Hebrews 1 is clear Jesus is superior to the angels.

Hebrews 1:4 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son,today I have begotten you'?

The implied answer is "none".
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


Angel means messenger. It does not mean created being.

Here, and in many other text, we se that THE ANGEL of the lord of also god

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Does that THE ANGEL OF THE LORD is a created being? Not at all

Watch through this blog as I an others who have studied it show line upon line that whatever the bible says Michael will do, is always done by Jesus. And who ever the bible says Michael is, Jesus is also
---francis on 4/14/12


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