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Righteousness By Our Works

The law is not of faith, Galatians 3:12. As our righteousness is by faith (Galatians 5:5), why do some continue to teach righteousness by works of the law?

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 ---Haz27 on 4/24/12
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Craig, as I said before, at least for one day, speak the truth to others instead of making dumb remarks about others. Give the glory to God at least for one day. Contribute something for His glory. You are working for the wrong father.

Election and salvation don't seem to be important to you, and you are suppose to be one of the elect, one who is saved. The reason you don't like the subject is because men is not involve in his salvation and that get you real mad. Ask God to reveal the Truth to you, and you too will be speaking about God and His sovereign will all the time. You will be able to thank Jesus Christ for saving you. Instead, you want to take the glory because you used your own free will. Without God you can do nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/1/12


James L, you sure make many assumptions about other brothers. You assume you know Christan's heart. Which is totally rediculous. Why do you even have to resort to such slander? So that those who have opposed him, liars and hypocrites, can jump on the band wagon? Your intention was not to answer with a godly answer, but to slander him. If you don't like his answers or his approach, respond to them, instead of gossiping about him to others.
---Mark_V. on 4/30/12


JONWECK - May i went about the wrong way to get my point across - I'am with some other people here - What you have is a do it yourself Gospel, Weather it be repenting or Faith- these all end up as Works. I will keep read the Blogs maybe you all change my mind, but I don't Think So. God the one that has to Open the heart. not us, Because the unsaved person Heart - is deceitful - God is the one that has to draw that person.
---RICHARDC on 4/30/12


It really seems to me that Christan is trying to convince himself more than anyone else.
---James_L on 4/30/12


Exactly James! Take notice that every single blog (regardless of the topic) he works in election to salvation is some way.

If you tell yourself that the sky is purple long enough, eventually youll begin to see it as purple even though everyone else clearly sees it is blue. Self-delusion can be powerful
---CraigA on 4/30/12


jonweckl: You are correct, I did mention we are not under the law hence there is no sin. Actually I was quoting Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is NO TRANSGRESSION/sin.

I noted in your post to another blogger you sought to determine definitions to understand each other better. I agree with that type of approach and I do likewise on the topic of sin. I guess you had missed my earlier posts defining 'sin' from scripture. Using God's definitions of sin we see why 1John 3:9 says we "cannot sin".

This is not to say we do no wrong though. Christians who do wrong are disciplined (King David an example).

If you want to discuss it, it might be best to start a new blog topic on sin.
---Haz27 on 4/30/12




\\James L. I understand your point. But, whatever "aspect" of salvation we're talking of, Christan's views would not stand logically with what is in the bible.\\
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


As for Christan's take on scripture, you've run into one mess there.

I think if you're not a Calvinist, then Christan thinks you are damned. But don't accuse him of being a Calvinist, because he'll even turn on Calvin if it suits today's argument.

It really seems to me that Christan is trying to convince himself more than anyone else.
---James_L on 4/30/12


Jonweckl, you logic is completely wrong. Christan said, when you are saved by God, he is referring to the beginning of your walk with Christ. He initiates the beginning of your walk with Him when He makes you alive together with Christ. Without Him doing that you remain in trespasses and sins. Since you cannot change your own heart. And when we are saved at the beginning, our flesh is not redeemed. In order to follow Christ we need to walk in the Spirit not in the flesh which we still have. The whole New Testament is about teaching us, conforming us. We need to be taught of God, and the only way we can do that is by following His teachings. We are been sanctified through the Word.
---Mark_V. on 4/30/12


6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

MarkV, any good Bible scholar KNOWS our Old man is our first Adam, our first birth in Adam. That is who the Old man is.

We put OFF the OLD and put on the new.

We are ALL in Adam1 at birth.

Those IN CHRIST are now in the Second Adam and the first died with Christ. How do you think He destroyed the power of sin in us. And THROUGH DEATH, and our identification with Him in Death.

Don't you know that IN CHRIST your old man...Adam 1 DIED?

Colossians 1:21-23
Romans 6-8
Colossians 2
Galatians 2:20
Colossians 3:1-4
Galatians 6
Just a few here!
---kathr4453 on 4/30/12


RichardC... i didn't understand your post.

Are you disputing what i mentioned about "believeth in him shall not perish"? I don't get it, because you used Rom.10:9 which said "if thou confess with thy mouth...and shalt believe in thy heart" which concurs with what i'm saying that there is something we need to do for God to open our hearts, and make His words known to us. "..confess with thy mouth.. and.. believe in thy heart."

Who will "confess with thy mouth" and "believe in thy heart"? It didn't say God will make you confess with your heart, or make you believe.
---jonweckl on 4/29/12


Christs own words prove Calvinisms "Perseverance of the Saints" a lie. Those whose sins are forgiven (and that is ONLY done through Jesus Christ) will not be allowed entrance into Gods kingdom IF they themselves do not forgive others.

Matt 18:32

O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
---CraigA on 4/29/12




And no where in God's word are we told that believers have two natures. --
---Mark_V. on 4/27/12


I thought this was common knowledge.

You have your flesh and the Spirit of Christ. Romans 7 seemed pretty clear on this.
---Blogger9680 on 4/29/12


Haz, thank you.

Actually, as i remember it, i first had to react to that statement (am not sure where or whose post i first saw it) because the post also mentioned the scripture on sin is the transgression of the law, and since we are not under the law then there is no more sin.

I felt it was (again) a very sweeping statement so i just wanted to put it in the proper perspective.
---jonweckl on 4/29/12


Kathr, only Jesus Christ who is God has two natures and you are not God. As usual, you know not what you say. You are proof you still have your sinful nature. Nothing change. You even think you know what I belief, you keep saying, "markv believes his old Adam was rebirth." Pretty stupid remark, since there is no such thing as "Old Adam inside believers." That he got old is for sure. No person today has "old Adam"
Then you follow it with another dumb remark when you say'
"our 1st Adam was crucified with Christ" Where do you come out with that nonsense? Old Adam did not get crucified, he just died of old age.
More religious talk to sound as if you know what you are saying.
---Mark_V. on 4/29/12


But when you are Born FROM Above, that old thing called adam is done away at the cross. our 1st Adam was crucified with Christ, and now CHRIST lives in us. We do have 2 natures. Christ in us...HIS NATURE and our old sin nature. The CROSS is to keep our old man rendered dead, yet some still keep it alive by saying they have only THAT nature.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/12

AMEN and amen!!
If your old man is not nailed to the cross, then how are you walking in the spirit of Christ and made a new Creature?
Hmm, maybe you aren't and that means you are still dead and still in sin.
---ginger on 4/29/12


JONWECKI -4/27/12 - Believeth in him shall not Perish - Thats our part -{ Is it ? }

Going to take a verse here we all know and look at it.
ROMANS 10:9 That if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe IN THY HEART that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be Saved.
What do you know about a unsaved person HEART ?

JEREMIAH 17:9 The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can Know it.
God First has to give that person a new heart - Then they can truly Believe.

EZEKIEL 11:19 And I will give them one Heart, and I will put a new spirit within you and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.

---RICHARDC on 4/29/12


jonweckl: It's good to see where both on he same page now.

Rom 8:2, which I originally quoted, is very clear which of the 2 laws Christians are under, so your unusual questions towards me had me wondering if you were trying to direct the discussion towards Christians still being under the law of sin and death.

Due to the understandable word limits on this forum, misunderstandings can easily occur. But the 'law' (meaning law of sin and death), has not been one that has needed such clarification before, especially when Rom 8:2 is quoted.

Anyway, welcome to CN if your new here. Looking forward to your input.



---Haz27 on 4/29/12


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\\Matt 10:22 ...This verse is dealing with a timely salvation (deliverance) of the saints from the persecutions at hand\\
---trey on 4/29/12


But you have not rightly divided.

Jesus said, in the context of perscution "He who endures to end will be saved"

Paul said, also in the context of suffering, "if we endure, we will riegn with Him."

Hebrews 2:9-10 says Jesus was crowned with "glory" and honor because He suffered. And He is bringing many sons to "glory" with Him.

"glory" is an inheritance that is earned by Christ, then shared with those who suffer with Him (Rom 8:17)
---James_L on 4/29/12


Only Jesus Christ has two natures. And no where in God's word are we told that believers have two natures. --
---Mark_V. on 4/27/12

This then explains why markv believes his old adam was rebirthed. Markv still lives in that ONE OLD NARURE of Adam.

But when you are Born FROM Above, that old thing called adam is done away at the cross. our 1st Adam was crucified with Christ, and now CHRIST lives in us. We do have 2 natures. Christ in us...HIS NATURE and our old sin nature. The CROSS is to keep our old man rendered dead, yet some still keep it alive by saying they have only THAT nature.
---kathr4453 on 4/29/12


Matt 10:22 ...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. This verse is dealing with a timely salvation (deliverance) of the saints from the persecutions at hand. This verse is not dealing with eternal salvation.
Christians must learn to rightly divide the word. For example, when Moses spoke to the children of Israel and said "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" he was speaking of a timely deliverance from the Egyptians. (Exod 14:13)
The early Christians had a rest from persecution for a short time after the destruction of Jerusalem for a time period spanning the succession of the next 5 Ceasars. (Two of these only lasted 18 months each.)
---trey on 4/29/12


"Why all your ambiguity and dissension on the clarity of this scripture? Is it deliberate?"

Haz, the ambiguity was not from me. I understand that that particular verse tells that christians were set free SPECIFICALLY from THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. However, your original statement to which i reacted to, was that christians were NOT UNDER THE LAW (period) -- which is a very general statement.

I was asking if you are talking about a specific set of laws that we are not under or are you saying that we are not under ANY AND ALL LAWS. That's why i used Rom.8:2 since it talks of TWO DIFFERENT laws -- one law, "nullifying" the other.
---jonweckl on 4/29/12


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Haz, as to your question...

NO, i am not an SDA. I am not arguing for (or in favor) of the law of sin and death.

This is my belief:
No, we are not under the law. What law? the law of works, the law of sin and death, the law of Moses whereby we cannot be justified (Acts.13:39)
but...
Yes, we are under the law. The law of the Spirit, the law of faith, the law of Christ which we are commanded to fulfill (Gal.6:2)
---jonweckl on 4/29/12


Jonweckl: Rom 8:2 CLEARLY speaks of being set free from the law of sin and death. Why all your ambiguity and dissension on the clarity of this scripture? Is it deliberate?

Your argument is against my stating that Christians are not under the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2 shows CLEARLY that we are not under the law of sin and death. Likewise Gal 5:18 and 1Tim 1:9 I quoted.

As you appear to be arguing for the law of sin and death I'm wondering if your an SDA or similar. You missed answering this question last time but can you please let us know?
---Haz27 on 4/28/12


James L. I understand your point. But, whatever "aspect" of salvation we're talking of, Christan's views would not stand logically with what is in the bible.

Christan said, God saves us and we don't have to do anything.

#1 (let's relate "saved" with our sins having been purged) If christan is correct, Jhn.3:16 is useless and illogical. Christan says i don't have to do anything -- i don't have to believe. And for that matter, i CAN'T believe because i'm dead in sins, as christan also says.

#2 (if we relate "saved" as being heirs of the promise) If christan is correct, Mat.10:22 is useless and illogical. We don't need to do anyting, says Christan. So, we don't need to endure to the end.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


Haz,
It's not i who think christians are not under the law of the spirit.

It was you who said "christians are not under the law." So i gave you Rom.8:2 and asked, that since the verse talks of two laws - law of the spirit, and law of sin and death, which law are we not under. Or are we not under both these laws.

If your belief is that we are not under both these laws, then how can the law of the spirit (if it is your belief that we are not under it) free us from the law of sin and death.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


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\\"he that endureth to the end shall be saved."(Mat.10:22)?\\
---jonweckl on 4/28/12

You have the wrong aspect of salvation in mind. You're thinking "saved from hell", when Jesus was speaking in the context of suffering, and thereby securing an inheritance.

Romans 8:17
We are joint-heirs with Christ "IF" we suffer with Him

Hebrews 1:14
Angels are appointed to assist those who shall Inherit "Salvation"

Our inheritance is called "salvation", and will only be sucured by those who endure through suffering.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven
---James_L on 4/28/12


//why do some continue to teach righteousness by works of the law?//

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
---michael_e on 4/28/12


Christan, i didn't notice this from your post earlier. Sorry but i cannot let this pass without answering it.

You said "You really think it was easy for Christ to come and die for the sins of His people."

Did i ever, at any point, explicitly or implicitly mentioned that it was easy FOR CHRIST? O c'mon...

This was my post on 4/28/12: "I just realized, you have a very easy path to christianity and salvation." I said YOU have a very easy path... not CHRIST.

I think it's you who better think long and hard before answering. Read the post first with an open mind so that you will understand what the "writer" is saying and the meaning would not be skewed by your biased mind.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


christan* Ruben, using Matthew 23:37-38 to justify 'free-will'? Just because it says "you would not!" Seriously? that man has no 'free-will'.

Wiil this work for you:

"Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."( Jhn 5:39-40)


According to Christ, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

And according to God the Father you will let you leave from his hand:

"And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living." (Lk 15:12)
---Ruben on 4/28/12


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"...that's because you want to add on to the work of Christ..",

"...add to your faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge, ... etc" (2Pet.1:5-7)

Well, it's not me who wants to ADD on. Christ, through apostle Peter told me to add a lot of things to faith. And i will obey, because "he that lacketh these things is blind... and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."(v.9). So who told you that faith ALONE saves? Obviously not the same Christ preached in the bible.

And while we're in this chapter, let's see verse 19 "...whereunto ye do well that YE TAKE HEED..."
Now again, if God saves or don't save me REGARDLESS of what I do, why would Peter tell me to "TAKE HEED"?
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


Christan, you say it's not easy but you didn't answer my question.

If, as you say, no one can take you away from God, why would God need to say "he that endureth to the end shall be saved."(Mat.10:22)? Why would God have to tell christians that they should endure to the end to be saved, if as you say, you are already with Christ and no one can take you away from Him.

If no one can take you away from Him, then you are already assured that you are saved. So, there would be no need to remind you to endure to the end. It would be illogical for God to utter those words. Unless what is illogical is how you interpreted part of His words.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


"I just realized, you have a very easy path to christianity and salvation." jonweckl

Easy? Because I believe salvation is 100% God's grace and 0% man's effort? That makes it easy? Why don't you try it since "it's easy"?

You can't and that's because you want to add on to the work of Christ and when told that only by faith in Him are ye saved, you think "it's easy". You really think it was easy for Christ to come and die for the sins of His people?

You better think long and hard the next time you assume one of having "it easy". I assure you that there are sufferings to come for being a Christian.
---christan on 4/28/12


"Oddly enough MY Bible says the Spirit is convicting the entire world of sin (John 16:8). Why would He do that if He didnt want men to repent and turn to Jesus Christ?" CraigA

Do not quote John 16:8 without verse 9, which says in continuation to verse 8, "of sin, because they do not believe in Me". The "conviction of sin" in this context in John 16:8-11 is not to bring the unbeliever to repentance but condemn him that he does not believe Christ is God. ie, unbelief in Christ is good enough for God to send one's soul to eternal death.

Pharaoh and Judas according to Scriptures "repented" (Exodus 9:27 & Matthew 27:3) but something was missing in their "repentance".
---christan on 4/28/12


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"does Jesus declare anywhere else that you have to do your part? "

"TURN YOU at my reproof..."(Prov.1,23)
"...OBSERVE all... i have commanded..."(Mat.28:20)
"...he that ENDURETH to the end..."(Mat.10:22)
etc...

If God already has a list of who He will save and who He won't, REGARDLESS of what man does, why would He still command us to TURN at His reproof, to OBSERVE all that He commanded, or to ENDURE to the end? If God will not save me regardless of what I do, it would be useless, illogical, and downright stupid to command me those things because He will not save me anyway regardless of what i do.
And GOD is not illogical or stupid -- at least not the God i believe in.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


Christan,I just realized, you have a very easy path to christianity and salvation.

First: without doing anything, God saved you. Second: now that you're saved, you still don't need to do anything because no one can take you away from Christ since the Father drew you to Him.

"...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Mat.10:22) So who is Christ talking to here, who should endure to the end to be saved? Obviously not you... you're just coasting along smoothly.
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


The heavenly Father CAUSED salvation/purification by sending His Son to be the final "sin" sacrifice. In obedience, JESUS hung on the cross and then also left us the Spirit of the Father so we could learn to be holy and peaceful.

As to traditional teachings, we were taught to mock all of what GOD did and steal His glory by acting as though WE are responsible/worthy for salvation and all DIVINE favor, so we....

"RAIN ON GOD'S PARADE".

.....STOP IT, let GOD have His "day in the sun", it would be "very kind of you" (sarcastically said) to let God have all the glory for the "works of God".
---more_excellent_way on 4/28/12


Doesn't it strike the fear of God in you that it's not up to you to be saved? If it doesn't, I'm sure the Spirit isn't working in you ---Christan

If its not up to us to choose then conviction serves no purpose.

Oddly enough MY Bible says the Spirit is convicting the entire world of sin (John 16:8). Why would He do that if He didnt want men to repent and turn to Jesus Christ?
---CraigA on 4/28/12


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"Now, because God loved me first, does that mean that I don't have free-will?" jonweckl

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 - does Jesus declare anywhere else that you have to do your part? The consequence of this action is, you will believe, period!

"God had long ago already foreordained who he wants to save and who he will not save."

Doesn't it strike the fear of God in you that it's not up to you to be saved? If it doesn't, I'm sure the Spirit isn't working in you. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7
---christan on 4/27/12


Christan, you think i CAN'T?

It is God who first loved me. He loves us that even while we were dead in sins, He gave His only son to die for our sins because He wants that all men be saved (1Tim.2:4)

Now, because God loved me first, does that mean that I don't have free-will? No. So, God had already made the first move. He had shown us His love by giving His son to die for our sins. What's next? How will we be saved by His blood? "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish." That's our part there. He's telling us that if we believe in Him we'll be saved. The verse doesn't say whoever He chooses to believe in Him. The decision to either obey His command -- which is to believe in Him, OR reject His words is left to us.
---jonweckl on 4/27/12


Christan, from your posts, this is how i understand your belief. (And please correct me if i'm wrong.)

God had long ago already foreordained who he wants to save and who he will not save. And that no matter what man does, it will not help him, nor hurt him. with regard to whether he will be saved or not.
---jonweckl on 4/27/12


Jonweckl said: "LAW OF THE SPIRIT (which we are not under)"
Why do you think Christians are not under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?
By the way, it was the Jews who were set free from law of sin and death. The Gentiles were never under it. They still perished without the law anyway (Rom 2:12) as they were unrighteous.

Scriptures speak of 2 ways to righteousness. Either the law of righteousness (aka, law of sin and death) OR righteousness by faith.
Walking/being in the flesh is establishing your own righteousness under law, thereby not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).
Walking/being in the Spirit is righteousness by faith. Such are NOT under the law of sin and death.
---Haz27 on 4/27/12


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Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes,.. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

2 Samuel 22:21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them. I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity. Therefore the LORD hath recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to my cleanness in his eye sight.
---francis on 4/27/12


broad and wide is the path that leads to distruction,and narrow and straight is the path that leads to heaven ,and few find it.
---tom2 on 4/27/12


"But to conclude that because i HAVEN'T said it, means that i CAN'T say it, is interpreting what you read out of context and creating a conclusion which naturally would be out of context and incorrect." jonweckl

Say it then. You can't right? That's because all you fight for in the 'free-will' will just be flushed down the drain if you say it. I do know you can't say it is because you don't believe the Scriptures, period.

Oh, the hard Truth, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 and "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65
---christan on 4/27/12


there is nothing righteous about human beings,all have sinned,only thru faith in christ do we obtain it,iam the way the truth the life no one comes to the father but by me.
---tom2 on 4/27/12


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"We're each defining "flesh" differently." ginger

Is there another particular kind of flesh that has a soul and spirit other than man that God created?

Flesh is explicitly used in the Scripture to describe the fallen man. It is said the flesh can never please God as Haz27 rightfully quoted Romans 8:8,9. Only those "born of the Spirit" that's still in the flesh can please God. And that's because of the "gift of faith" that God so graciously gave them. God glories only in His own work of salvation.

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Isaiah 42:8
---christan on 4/27/12


"You can't even say it was God..." Are you sure that i CAN'T say that? Just because i haven't said it (yet) does not necessarily mean i CAN'T say it. Do you really like to read a little of something then create a big conclusion out of that? Not a good practice to have christan. At least be mindful of the words you use (and read for that matter). They may all be gramatically correct, but may not mean the same thing. If you had said "You HAVEN'T even said..." I would not disagree because it is a fact that I haven't said it. But to conclude that because i HAVEN'T said it, means that i CAN'T say it, is interpreting what you read out of context and creating a conclusion which naturally would be out of context and incorrect.
---jonweckl on 4/27/12


Christan, please answer me first, because we may have a different "definition", "interpretation" of what free-will is. It would be unfair for both of us and a waste of both our time and space on this site to continue exchanging opposing view if we first don't have the same understanding of what free-will is. Thank you.
---jonweckl on 4/27/12


jon,

Christan is ignoring an entire book in the Bible...JOB.

He could have turned away from God. In fact, his wife said for him to "curse God and die".
does that sound like Job didn't have a choice to follow God? No i sure doesn't.
Job could have turned from God. In fact, that was the challenge God gave to satan. To get Job to change his mind and turn away from God.
But of course Christan ignores a lot of what the Bible says for his own purposes.
---ginger on 4/27/12


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Only Jesus Christ has two natures. And no where in God's word are we told that believers have two natures. All man have one nature, each animal has its own nature.
"Therefore If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, old thing have passed away, behold, all things have become new"
"Old things have passed away" is saying that after a person is regenerated, old value systems, priorities, beliefs, loves, and plans are gone. Evil and sin are still present, but the believer sees them in a new perspective (v.16) and they no longer control him.
---Mark_V. on 4/27/12


jonweckl, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10. You can't even say it was God who first loved you that you may love His Son. 'Free-willer' always put themselves before God, that's why they can't even say it was God who first drew them (John 6:44) to believe in Him. They deny saying: "you've to believe first", an outright lie!

Christ said, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Did Scripture say, "choose to follow me"? Or even, "by their 'free-will' they chose to follow Christ"? Nothing of that sort!
---christan on 4/27/12


christan, why do you equate having free will as trying to be equal or "as almighty to God."? As i said Christ, in His gospel had laid down everything that a christian needs to do. All we need to do is obey all that He commanded. We cannot "create" our own method on how we should act to show we are christians. So in that regard, yes our will is not free. We are not free to do whatever we want. We must follow what christ commanded that a christian should do. But ultimately, does God tie a string to you and make you move and act the way He wants you? Or does He command you and let you, obey Him because you love Him? Did He say "I WILL MAKE YOU follow me..." or did He say "follow me."
---jonweckl on 4/26/12


Ginger: We're each defining "flesh" differently.
Consider Rom 8:8,9
"they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are NOT in the flesh, but in the spirit"

Rom 7:5,6 and Gal 3and5 describes what being in the flesh is. It's establishing your own righteousness through the law thereby not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).
Walking in the Spirit however, is righteousness by faith (Gal 5:5).

In Christ we do not sin (transgress the law, 1John3:4) as we're not under law. And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15. Our righteousness is by faith instead.
Now as Christians we love one another. And should we do wrong God disciplines us (consider King David).
---Haz27 on 4/26/12


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Haz, as a reply to your post in Get Right With God Now.
You mention We are not under the law, which as I said is too general a statement. Rom.8:2 "For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from THE LAW OF sin and death." (capitalized only to highlight those parts). Notice, TWO DIFFERENT laws are mentioned: #1= LAW OF THE SPIRIT, #2= the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. Law #1 set us free from law #2.
So if we relate your statement to this particular verse, what law are we not under? the law of the spirit, or the law of sin and death. Or is it to both? If we are not under both laws then how could the LAW OF THE SPIRIT (which we are not under) set us free from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
---jonweckl on 4/27/12


Haz, If that is taught, it is taught from a lack of understanding. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal 2:16-20 See also Gal 4:9>Rom 8:3>Gal 2:4
---joseph on 4/27/12


Ruben, using Matthew 23:37-38 to justify 'free-will'? Just because it says "you would not!" Seriously? Scripture's completed and revealed by the Holy Spirit about the workings of God, that man has no 'free-will'.

Do you know why "you would not!"? According to Christ, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Reaffirming v44, Christ declared "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto Him of my Father."

Even the rejection of Christ is purposed by the Father because He has not given "these" to His Son. So, what 'free-will' do you have?
---christan on 4/27/12


Your mind thinks even after the fall of Adam who represented mankind, God is still desperately testing you to see whether you will be obedient to Him// Christan

Isn't that what God did to Job? Yep it sure is.
So now you are ignoring and entire book in the Bible?
WOW!!
---ginger on 4/27/12


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In answer to Matthew 23 v.37 & 38, the suggestion is that God wants to do something and people are stopping Him. But that is wrong meaning for the passage. Since we already know that God is utterly sovereign and therefore fully capable of bringing to pass whatever He desires Isa. 46:10. Including the salvation of whomever He chooses yet He sometimes expresses a wish for that which He does not soverignly bring to pass. These statments do reveal the essential aspects of the divine character, He is full of compassion.
---Dan on 4/27/12


"neither does the Lord's prayer prove that ONLY God has free will." jonweckl

Yah right. You are just as almighty to God then. Do you even know what 'free-will' means? For God, His free-will is "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." Psalm 135:6 - let me see you do that.

Your mind thinks even after the fall of Adam who represented mankind, God is still desperately testing you to see whether you will be obedient to Him. So what is it that Paul declared you do not believe, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12
---christan on 4/26/12


christan * How does a sinner who's sin is not even forgiven by God go around forgiving people? He's not even right with God and he goes round forgiving others?

Unless your God, how would you know God has not accepted his forgiveness?

christan * ONLY God has a 'free-will'!

Really:


Matthew 23:37-38 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! "
---Ruben on 4/26/12


That's what Christ calls as hypocrisy!

--Christan

No, actually hypocrisy is you always saying "Hahaha, I am saved and you can't be unless God lets you be!" This is what you are preaching...GARBAGE!

That is not what Christ taught.

Haz, When we get saved, we don't have one nature anymore, we have 2. The flesh we live in in this world and the Spirit of Christ which we abide in. When we were in sin, we needed the law to tell us we were sinners.
In Christ, we can still sin BUT have the choice everyday not to. We have Christ in us to tell us what sin is and no longer have to look at the law. It is written in our inward parts.
---ginger on 4/26/12


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In James chapter two >

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)

Paul speaks of "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6. So, there are works that are needed.

Works of salvation include repenting and trusting in Jesus.

Then we need to do works of love so we grow and exercise and develop in God's love . . . like how a child needs to have wholesome activities with a good example parent so the child can learn how to relate in love.

In this same chapter, James gives examples of works that justify > works of personal loving.
---willie_c: on 4/26/12


For many, many years I was taught and believed the Lords Prayer was found in Matthew 6:9-13. After years of personal study, I have learned this is not the Lords Prayer. It is Jesus teaching the Disciples how to pray.

The Lords Prayer is actually found in John Chapter Seventeen.
---Rob on 4/26/12


Christan, neither does the Lord's prayer prove that ONLY God has free will. "thy will be done..." tells us how we should submit to the will of the Father. Since God had already laid down the "way" by which christians should walk in, then yes we don't have a free rein on how we want to serve Him. Every aspect of how a christian should live has been explained in the gospel. However, our free will comes in on whether we would choose to endure the hardships and trials that comes with following God to the end.
We are guided and strengthened by the spirit of God that is in all true christians. This helps us to endure to the end and keep us from evil. But God does not hold us by the neck and forces us to obey Him.
---jonweckl on 4/26/12


Ruben, the Lord's Prayer is peculiar ONLY to the Christian as taught by Christ. The Lord's Prayer does not apply to the whole of mankind. Forgiveness can only flow when God has first forgiven the sinner of His sins through Justification by Faith.

How does a sinner who's sin is not even forgiven by God go around forgiving people? He's not even right with God and he goes round forgiving others? That's what Christ calls as hypocrisy!

By the way, the Lord's Prayer does not teach or justify man's 'free-will'. And here's why, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." ONLY God has a 'free-will'!
---christan on 4/25/12


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If a man does righteous works it is because God has made him a righteous man. (Matt 12:33, Eze 11:19.) God has created in him a new heart. God has given him a new nature. (2nd Cor 5:17) Until God works on a man the man cannot do righteous works. (Eph 2:2-5, Heb 11:6, Gal 5:22). Man cannot of his own free will choose to do good until he has been changed by God. (John 6:44 - study the true meaning of the word "drawing". It doesn't mean to give a choice or tempt someone. It means to drag. Also see Jer 31:3).
---trey on 4/25/12


"Be Doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Therefore to one that knows to do good and does not, to that one it is sin. Can faith save a person? Will you know, O foolish person, that faith without works is dead? You see then how that by works a person is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead." James 1:22+ 4:17+ 2:14,20,24,26.
---Eloy on 4/25/12


1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 4/25/12


christan* He has left mankind with the ability to obey and it comes in the form of their imaginative 'free-will'.

Very true:

" If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. "
( MT 6:13-15)

"If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever . ( ! tim 5:8)
---Ruben on 4/25/12


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Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory, with exceeding joy." Jude 24.

RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH is the imputing and imparting of the results of Christ sinless life and atoning death. It includes both justification and sanctification. He imputes, or credits, to us the merits of His sinless experience to deliver us from the penalty of sin. This is justification.

To deliver us from the power of sin, He does not merely reckon us as righteous, but He actually imparts the strength to overcome sin. In either case, He bestowS upon us what He attained through His own incarnate experience as the Saviour of the world.
---francis on 4/25/12


Our righteousness of faith produces fruits of the spirit which creates works. It depends on the order of the works, Faith then works. This is the main theme in James 2. Not works then faith. However, after more works (tithing, sabbath, generousity) you are more likely to place more faith in God thus your faith grows from a salvation standpoint to a daily life standpoint.
---Scott1 on 4/25/12


I should clarify I refer to the righteousness by works of the law doctrines such as SDA's teach.

Scriptures say we are not under the law (Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 8:2) but some, such as SDA's, contradict this, teaching that if we don't keep the commandments we are lost.
---Haz27 on 4/25/12


Like what? Like offering "A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons" when a male child is born?
---Nana on 4/25/12


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ultimately faith is what,when we believe in christ,makes us righteous in the eyes of the father.our works are a product of this faith,done for love of him who saved us,and because we love those who need to know him.
---tom2 on 4/25/12


Many will deny what Scripture declares, and that everyone born into this world is born "dead in their sins and trespasses". They assume that when God gives a command, He has left mankind with the ability to obey and it comes in the form of their imaginative 'free-will'. If this was true about 'free-will', Jesus Christ coming in the flesh was a waste of His time, since the sinner has the ability to use his 'free-will' to obey God and be justified by works instead of faith.

Just like the law, God's commands is to demonstrate the inability of the fallen man to ever obey Him. That's why He gives "His people" the very gift of faith to believe in His Word.
---christan on 4/25/12


Haz, they teach righteousness by works because they are deceived by Satan.
---Trish on 4/24/12


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