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Explain Romans 9:8

Romans 9:8 says, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." What's Paul teaching in this chapter and particularly this verse?

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ginger I apologize if you think I was yelling at you. I bold, but MY bolds are not yelling. I'll watch that.

I just found out last night I'm going to be a Nanna AGAIN!! Congrats to you too!

I do know in Adam all die. and I know death is the result of Adam's sin, so death as a result of sin has in fact passed to all.

Hebrews 2 state Jesus came to deliver us from the bondage of death never says curse of death or curse of total depravity.

In adam all die, in Christ will all be made alive.

next
---kathr4453 on 5/28/12


14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/12


So all men are under the bondage of death. I believe all men mean all human beings.

I know when it comes to babies, every demonination has their own beliefs about that because it is a hard subject to deal with. One baptizes infants believing this insures heaven, one believes there is an age of accountability.

The Bible IS SILENT on this subject.

I also know God is a fair and just and merciful God, and because of that I KNOW whatever His plan is for babies, mentally retarded, etc, He will do what is right in His eyes.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/12


Kathr, you did great. Everything you said is very true in your answer to Ginger. That was awesome. And ginger, it's not about sides, but about the Truth and Kathr spoke Truth, what really matters.
Concering total depravity of the human race. "Total depravity" means radical corruption. "Utter depravity" is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. And no one is "utterly depraved" Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. If we lift our glaze to the Ultimate Standard of goodness, "the Holy character of God," What humanism considers to be basically good, is corrupt to the core,
---Mark_V. on 5/28/12


Also Kath,
agree with the sin nature and conscience. We all have these.
I don't however believe if a baby dies after birth that they go the hell. They don't know what sin is so How could God judge them?
Also, when does the conscience to know right from wrong develope? I have had children and getting ready to be a grandma and I have yet to see a baby with these things.
Many contribute selfishness to this, but God created all of us with basic needs, food shelter, clothing. And a baby cannot get these things for themselves.
I believe we adults teaching them has a lot to do with it.
---ginger on 5/27/12




I don't believe we are born totally depraved...a different subject.
//kathr

And I totally agree with this kathr. I disagree with MarkV because he uses this verse to back up total depravity which I completely disagree with.
Children are not born knowing good and evil though. We adults teach it to them.
Children are born only knowing how to breath cry, etc..basic instincts survival.
Children don't know anything unless we teach them, correct? I believe so.

I would like it to if you did not yell at me. I am in your corner by the way.

Look at Samuel. From birth all he knew was God and that was how he lived.
---ginger on 5/27/12


Ginger, NON CHRISTIAN Jewish sites?? David's mother isn't mentioned in SCRIPTURE, so any fable's about his mother is just that, a fable, of which Paul warns against.

NO SCRIPTURE even hints at the fact that David was born our of adultery or anything of the sort. David was the youngest of 7 brothers.

I agree with the Seg and MarkV and have always believed that verse means we are all born in sin. Babies are not born sinless. We are all born with a fallen sin nature, WITH A CONSCIENCE to know both GOOD and Evil. Remember they ate from the tree of GOOD and Evil, not JUST EVIL. JUST EVIL would mean total depravity. I don't believe we are born totally depraved...a different subject.

ONLY ADAM & Eve were CREATED sinless.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


well Kath, that is exactly where I learned it from. Researching jewish sights.

I don't see where it would not be truth as many scripture has double meaning to it.

My point to MarkV is that, that scripture does not mean all of us are created in sin as the verse says. David was not talking about everybody. He was talking about himself.

The Bible tells us all plainly that children are a GIFT from God.
He is trying to make that one verse stand for total depravity and it just does not work.
Hope that clears if up for, God bless!
---ginger on 5/27/12


ginger, rejecting the truth is what you are doing. I left the Catholic church for one reason only, they are idol worshippers. Jesus is not even second choice, He has to get in line behind so many others.
You are holding to their believes, works for salvation. Yet you say that when the Holy Spirit came to you you believed. And I said, what if He hadn't come to you? Where would you be. When the Holy Spirit comes and makes someone alive, you have nothing whatsoever to do with that supernatural act. It is all of God, for without Him you can do nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/27/12


...I read the history of David.
His mother was a not nice woman. That is why he says he was conceived in sin.
ginger//

Ginger, Can you provide any scripture stating David's mother was ????? not a virtuous woman.

I do know that unbelieving Jews take Psalms totally out of context when Jesus writes, "They put gall into my meal and give me vinegar to quench my thirst" Psalms 69
It is for Your sake that I have borne disgrace, that humiliation covers my face.

I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mothers sons.

and such scriptures and have fabricated a story about David and his mother when it's about these prophetic words about Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/12




MarkV,
Please stop cutting the most important part out of that verse.
PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST!
Children who are born out of wedlock are concieved in a sin. No marriage!
You can believe what you wish. I've done the research on this.
Just because you say its truth DOES NOT MEAN IT IS.
You are not the only one with a direct line to God.
All who believe in Christ DO!
So of us get some things wrong yet you seem to be the only one who refuses to admit when you are wrong about something.
You need to set aside what you believe and maybe God will show some stuff.
You used to be catholic, but because they disappointed you, you went way opposite of them instead of seeking God you sought a religion.
---ginger on 5/26/12


ginger, I agree with Trey. And your trying to find reasons for rejecting the Truth. You said, when you heard the word of God preached, the Holy Spirit came on you and then you went on from there. Think, If the Holy Spirit had not come on you, what would have happened? Nothing. Your free will means zip. Without God you can do nothing.
Then you said because of what God did with you, you were predestined. Predestine is define as? "Pre" means before in time. "destine" means "bound for" to predetermine. (Eph. 1:4-6) tells us before the foundation of the world you were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, "according to the good pleasure of His will" not you will.
---Mark_V. on 5/26/12


Actually no MarkV, he is not.
I read the history of David.
His mother was a not nice woman. That is why he says he was conceived in sin.
Children are a blessing from God PERIOD.
If they die before knowing what Sin is, they go back to God.
Do a search on King David. The Bible is not the only history on him. You will see I am telling the truth.
Look At Jeremiah. God says he knew him from the womb. TOld him what he had put in him and chose him.
See the differences in him and David?
Yet David was a man after God's own heart.
---ginger on 5/25/12


Ginger, let me state the following with loving Christian kindness. Please read Romans 5:12. Paul is teaching that Adam sinned and his sin brought death into the world. He goes on to explain that we die because we are sinners. We are sinners because our parents were sinners, and they were sinners because their parents were sinners, etc. all the way back to Adam. Rom 5:18 tells us that the offense of Adam caused us all to die, because we all were in Adam (biblically speaking) when he sinned in the garden. Rom 5:19 tells us that Adam's sin made us sinners. In Psalms 50 when David said he was conceived in sin, he is simply stating that his parents were sinners. "shapen in iniquity" means that even in the womb he was a sinner.
---trey on 5/24/12


MarkV,
When I heard the word of God preached, The Holy Spirit came on me and convicted me of my sins. I repented, and God came and made his abode in me making me predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (ongoing). That was my spiritual birth!

And you are truly twisting something David said about his conception. The way his mother got pregnant with him.
Marriage isnt sin. Do you believe babies conceived within marriage is being conceived in sin? NO.
If that is the case, then HOW did David have the spirit of God in him? He didn't. It came upon him when he accepted what God gave him to do.
---ginger on 5/24/12


ginger, if you feel like you were never cursed, how can you believe you were ever saved from the curse? "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5).
The natural man is a child of the flesh. "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7,8).
From the womb a baby born does not need to be taught how to sin, he is born a sinner, he needs to be taught how to do good.
---Mark_V. on 5/23/12


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MarkV

Notice that scripture says from his YOUTH and NOT from birth.
That blows total depravity out of the water.

Could it be that children are pure and we adults make them depraved? I believe so.

Again, you still have not proven that man was cursed. They were punished by having to endure death for their sins.
Enoch was not. I wonder why he did not see physical death? Oh I know why, he was righteous and walked with God his whole life. No curse here at all. And he certainly did not have the Holy Spirit indwelled in him as we do to help him.
---ginger on 5/22/12


Kathr, your the mystery. Did you hear me say the ground was cursed forever? I said Mankind was cursed, all descendants of Adam are born cursed, condemned. All men are born sinful.
When God said,
"Then the Lord said in His heart, I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, "although the imagination of men's heart is evil" from his youth, nor will I again destroy every living thing as I had done."
God accepted Noah sacrifice. In the future God promised not to engage in global catastrophe by flood again (9:11). Check ( 2 Peter 3:3-10) for how God will destroy the earth in the future.
The rest of what you said was all just talk again. A lot of topics together to make something out of nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/12


In Eph, Paul is teaching the Gospel according to the MYSTERY, that was hid in the OT and revealed in the New.

Election is not a mystery.. Christ in you is that mystery. AND the results and effects of Christ in you is called GRACE.

Ephesians goes deeper into the effects of Christ in you,...like being strengthened by might in the inner man, or He is able to do abundantly above all that we could possibly ask or think, by HIS POWER that works in us. It can only work IN US if Christ is IN US.

The Mystery of being members of His Body...and so much more.

All as a result of being baptized into His death, and RAISED up together with Him RIGHT NOW, in His Resurrection POWER! AKA The Children of the SPIRIT! Phil 3 clarifies.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/12


8 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged,

-------

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour, and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

So MarkV, and StrongAxe, right out of God's Mouth. AFTER the Flood, the earth was cleansed. So if God said He would never again curse the ground for man's sake...then man in your understanding is not CURSED either!
---kathr4453 on 5/18/12


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Paul is teaching ELECTION.
---trey on 5/17/12


And that faith comes only to those who are together with Christ. (Eph. 2:5).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


THAT FAITH????

So all who are already together with Christ are given faith? THAT FAITH?

You can't be TOGETHER with Christ until you have first been crucified with Christ. THAT FAITH you don't have. NO ONE is raised up together WITH CHRIST until they have first been buried with Him in Death..Romans 6. THE RESULT OF OUR FAITH.

MarkV, why do you continue to fabricate and make up lies not found in scripture.

Ephesians 2:5 is BUILT UPON Romans 6, to those who are already IN Romans 6-8.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/12


WHERE DID GOD SAY, I curse you to death??? Can you show the exact verse where God said to Adam & Eve, I f you eat of this tree I WILL CURSE YOU TO DEATH.

I'm not wiggling my way out of anything. God told Adam , if you eat you will die.. He didn't say I will CURSE YOU TO DEATH.


We know death entered, we know it affected the whole of heaven and earth, and one day we will have a NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH along with being NEW CREATURES, but then you have to say God CURSED Heaven too.

When did God also CURSE Heaven?

Keep trying MarkV, but it only digs you in deeper and opens up questions over your head.

When God Cursed Satan/serpent did he also curse Heaven?
---kathr4452 on 5/16/12


Kathr, no matter how much you wiggle around you cannot escape the curse. All descendants of Adam are cursed to death. Whether the law is written or spoken by God it is still a law. Breaking moral laws is sin. Sin is the breaking of the law. God is the law, and when you sin you break away from God, separation from God, rebellion against God. So stop trying to cover up your sins. Just changing the Word of God and what God says is a curse is sin. No amount of religious talk will remove you from the curse, unless God brings faith to your heart. And that faith comes only to those who are together with Christ. (Eph. 2:5).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


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(Rom. 2:12) The law is written in their hearts.
---Mark_V. on 5/12/12

MarkV, The verse in Romans 2:12 is not the Law of Moses written in their hearts. It was/is the moral LAW showing man was given a conscience of right and wrong even before the Law of Moses.

Therefore we have from Adam to Moses the Moral law of Conscience, from Moses to Christ, the WRITTEN LAW given to Israel that had over 600 laws and ordinances they had to obey. THEY meaning Israel. There were with that WRITTEN LAW given to Israel blessings and cursings based upon THAT LAW alone Deut 28.

THAT is the curses WRITTEN in the BOOK, not the conscience, of which Galatians 3:10-14 is talking about.

YOU took GAlatians 3:13 totally out of context.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/12


//We have two different LAWS here MarkV, the MORAL Law was written in their hearts. It was not written in a BOOK.

While those that walk in God's Spirit do not need the law and are not under the law, Scripture should not be contrary to what the Spirit has the beleiver to do or believe.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Christian that is illiterate as many have been, are very successful in their walk with the Lord.
---lee1538 on 5/12/12


Mark_V. on 5/12/12


We have two different LAWS here MarkV, the MORAL Law was written in their hearts. It was not written in a BOOK. No MORAL law required anyone to observe the Sabbath Day. IF you insist it was the exact same LAW, then you agree with the SDA's that ALL Jew and Gentile were put under the Sabbath law FROM Adam & Eve.

So now MarkV, are you agreeing with the SDA's and Sabbath Keepers that the Sabbath LAW was NOT Given to Israel alone? That it actually was given somewhere in a book given to Adam & Eve?

Rather than accuse others of LYING, maybe you should spend more time LISTENING, before shooting off your mouth and cursing others.

You show your ignorance in your arguments.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/12


MarkV,
Type and Shadow!!!!

The law was not written on anyone's heart UNTIL Christ came.Prophesied in Joel and fulfilled in Acts.

That is why God gave Moses the stone tablets..THEY HAD TO SEE the law.

Abraham is an example of having faith without seeing stone tablets or the law being written on his heart.
Abraham did not have Christ in him!
Because Christ had not been given as a sacrifice yet.
God was demonstrating what he was going to do when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.
Such lack of understanding. Praying that God gives you understanding and takes away your cavlvinistic beliefs.
---ginger on 5/12/12


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Kathr, you need spiritual guideness. You have none. It is amazing to me how you knownly change the truth to a lie every day. Only those with another spirit, or destined to do such things.
Any breaking of the law is sin and a curse. Whether the law is written or spoken by God. Our first parent Adam cursed all mankind.
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transression of Adam, who are a type of Him who was to come." (Rom. 5:14)"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law." (Rom. 2:12) The law is written in their hearts.
---Mark_V. on 5/12/12


The CURSE OF THE LAW, THAT IS, THE LAW OF MOSES


Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/12


For those who care to KNOW what the Blessings and Curse of the Law of Moses was and what Paul was referring to in Galatians please read all of Deuteronomy 28.

The SCHOOLMASTER of the LAW of Moses was to show man that no one could perfectly keep the law. Paul askes these gentiles in galatians 3 WHY on earth do you want to go and NOW after beginning in the Spirit live under the LAW.

However Israel was under the LAW with promises of blessings and curses. This was that HEAVY YOKE Jesus promised to give them REST FROM.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/12


Amen Kath!!

Abraham was greatly blessed by God. So blessed, that God told him that anyone who was good to Abraham would be blessed! (this is OT, by the way)
Anyway, MarkV simply does not understand.

No, MarkV, the tree of Life was in the beginning. They had a choice: TO obey and eat from the tree of Life right in front of them.
God was teaching them obedience verses disobedience and the result of BOTH. They disobeyed, so they got death instead of Life.
Go back and read what God said Adam and Eve could EAT and could not EAT without your preconceived beliefs.
---ginger on 5/12/12


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"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree" (Gal. 3:13).
---Mark_V. on 5/11/12
IT SAYS:
Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree, THAT the Blessings would come on the Gentiles.
The CURSE here is the Curse of the LAW, the Law of Moses. Romans 5 from Adam to Moses there was no LAW, therefore there was no curse. There was of coarse SIN that lead to death. DEATH passed on to everyone...nothing about a curse that passed on to everyone.

But Galatians is talking about the Law of Moses VS GRACE! The Galatians were being persuades to go under the Law, not BACK under Law, since Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/12


Here is the WHOLE sentence.

Galatians 3:13-14


13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: NO PERIOD HERE MARKV!

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Abraham was not CURSED!

You simply DO NOT understand these verses.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/12


ginger, you guys are too much. You deny the existence of a curse on all mankind. How far will you guys go?
Don't you know that the breaking of the law of God brings a curse? Don't you know that Adam broke the law of God? Adam did not obey God's law, "And He said, "who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat" ( Gen. 3:11). God would have given them life, as a blessing for obeying Him, and a curse they got for disobeying Him. Did you not read,
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree" (Gal. 3:13).
---Mark_V. on 5/11/12


MarkV,
Re-read the story.
I am assuming you are talking about the ground being cursed because of Adam.
Eve's pain in child birth.
And of course the death of their flesh.
BUT Why did God cover them with skin to PROTECT them?
In fact, why would God protect them?
And He even promised to send someone to reconcile them back to him in Gen. 3:15..THE seed..Christ.
Also, God knowing what they would do does not mean God MADE them disobey.
Show me where God punished them BEFORE they sinned?
Show me where God created them to sin on purpose?
They knew to obey and CHOSE not to.
Show me where God says any different when concerning Adam and Eve?
---ginger on 5/10/12


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He could have forgiven Adam for sinning, instead He didn't, and let is all unfold, knowing full well man would sin, and He would execute the curse on all mankind. When you witness to the lost, don't you tell them they are condemned already and need a Savior?
You have another gospel.
---Mark_V. on 5/10/12

Condemned is one thing being CURSED is quite another.

God did FORGIVE Adam & Eve and COVERED them in aminal skins. So in fact God cannot forgive one and also CURSE one at the same time.

Blessings and Curses....James says it can't be so. If man cannot do this NEITHER CAN GOD!
---kathr4453 on 5/10/12


ginger, you say that it was not God who put the curse, and suggest it was Adam. You suggest Adam put the curse on himself and all his posterity. What Bible are you reading? Every bit of Truth, you turn it to a lie.
God created the heavens and the earth, created man, and set Adam, Eve in the garden, with a tree in the middle. Since God is God He could have but angels around the tree so no one would eat of it. He could have stopped Satan from even appearing. He could have forgiven Adam for sinning, instead He didn't, and let is all unfold, knowing full well man would sin, and He would execute the curse on all mankind. When you witness to the lost, don't you tell them they are condemned already and need a Savior?
You have another gospel.
---Mark_V. on 5/10/12


MarkV, I just re-read Genesis 3. I see God cursed the serpent/Satan and the ground. He didn't even curse the animals, except for the serpent. I do not see anywhere he cursed Adam & Eve. He did not tell Adam & Eve they would eat dirt the rest of their days and crawl on their bellies.

He told them life would be difficult now outside of a Perfect Garden of Eden.

Even as Christians MarkV, it is not a curse for a wife to be in submission to her husband. And Having children, God says is a blessing.

God did not curse man.

Man DIED as a result of their disobedience. If there was any curse, it couldn't be any worse than death they brought on themselves.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


From everlasting, God was alone, self-contained, self-sufficient, self-satisfied, in need of nothing. Had a universe, angels or human beingss been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them when He did, added nothing to God essentially. He changes not (Mal. 3:6), therefore He hopes for nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/9/12

MarkV, that has nothing to do with anything here discussed.

God is PERFECT & HOLY etc. He changes NOT! God's HOLINESS has nothing whatsoever to do with SUGGESTING he picked you out to be His elect.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


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Kathr, now you are asking where did God put the curse on mankind. You have got to be kidding. (Gen. 3:12-19). He sure did not give mankind a blessing. Adam is mankinds representitive. All of Adams descendants are cursed because of his sin.
God is our hope, He doesn't hope for anything.
From everlasting, God was alone, self-contained, self-sufficient, self-satisfied, in need of nothing. Had a universe, angels or human beingss been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them when He did, added nothing to God essentially. He changes not (Mal. 3:6), therefore He hopes for nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/9/12


Amen Kath and Ruben!

God did not curse man. Man disobeyed and brought it upon themselves.
Cain disobeyed and brought the curse upon himself.
Funny, God was STILL merciful with Cain though.
Why would God do this if he truly hated him?

MarkV wants God to hate those who disobey him but God does not. Even when Adam and Eve disobeyed, God still had mercy upon them.
He loves mankind but hates sin.
Don't we still love our children when they disobey?
I know I do.
And MarkV should realize that the love he feels for his son even in his disobedience, is a mirror of how God is with us.
---ginger on 5/9/12


---God put the curse on mankind. My God. "He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His Hand"
Your god is not God.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12
MarkV, please provide scripture where GOD put a curse on man?

That's nit what Hebrews 2 says at all. No one is going to hell because a CURSE has been put on them.

Scripture please.

OH and please don't use OT scripture concerning Israel's blessings and curses.

Did God put a curse on Cain.

Let's start a the beginning...Can you PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt GOD put a curse on Cain? BEFORE Cain disobeyed!
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


Mark V * What kind of god hopes for something? Not my God, not the One of Scripture.

Really:

"For we are saved by hope:" ( Romans 8:24)

"and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." ( Romans 5:5)

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." ( 1 JHN 3"3)

Mark V * Do you know why people are going to hell, because God put the curse on mankind.

Not according to scripture:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

"Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( james 1: 13-15)
---Ruben on 5/8/12


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MarkV,
I noticed something. When you post scripture, you almost never put where you got it from.

God is a God of mercy, love, joy, peace, longsuffering....
THe fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5) are the fruits of HIS SPIRIT. God portrays these and we who follow are expected to also.
WHat do you do with this verse here MarkV?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The "some men" would be you cause you think God CAN'T and won't. What kind of god is that?
---ginger on 5/8/12


Steven, how little you know about my God who seats on the Throne, He does as pleases Him. Men like you strip Deity of His omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence if you could. Here is your god,
"God does not want any man to go to hell. He's hoping that everyone repents and and comes to Him."
He is hoping you say. What kind of god hopes for something? Not my God, not the One of Scripture.
What is He hoping for, that men change their own hearts? You say God is hoping. Do you know why people are going to hell, because God put the curse on mankind. My God. "He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His Hand"
Your god is not God.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12


Mark_V.: "ginger, just because you do not believe or can see or hear, you do not have to cherry pick something and just throw it out there. We are here to speak Truth."

What truth have you found among all the different opinions and different interpretations of scripture you find on these blogs. Woe to those who depend upon worldly references (i.e. concordances, dictionaries and other christian reference books), but do not look to the Holy One of Israel.

God does not want any man to go to hell. He's hoping that everyone repents and and comes to Him. There is only one word that will get a person into heaven - LOVE. Genuine love. But during these end times love has waxed exceedingly cold.
---Steveng on 5/7/12


Thanks Craig, I just want to get understanding about what you are talking about.

MarkV does not believe that God has given every man a measure of faith.
he doesn't understand that faith in general and faith increased by God are different. He puts them in the same category. That is why he believes not every man has faith.
He does not understand that God asks us to believe (place our faith and trust) in his son thus believe HIM.
He doesn't even understand HOW he was saved in the first place. He thinks the Holy Spirit was already in him and that God just activated it some kind of way. Scripture says only one man had God's spirit in him at birth. CHRIST.
---ginger on 5/7/12


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Oh I know he did Ginger, but Romans 12:3 is clearly talking about the things we receive when we are made members of one body in Christ (v 4).

Don't misunderstand me please. I agree that all men have faith and just place it in the wrong things and their focus needs to be changed, but that passage isn't the one I would use to back up my belief that God gives it to us when He made us.
---CraigA on 5/7/12


CraigA,
Do you think that Paul did not preach or teach those who were not Christian?
If so,then how do you explain so many people being converted when he preached/taught?
He was not just addressing the saved in that particular preaching/teaching. When Paul says every man, he means every man.
God has given faith to every man. THe Holy Spirit has been poured out on every man(to include ALL).
Christ died for the sins of ALL.

On Romans 9:8, Paul is stating that the Seed which is Christ are those who believe in Christ and accept him as lord are the children of God.
---ginger on 5/7/12


Craig, God is not a man. His spoken, written it, and it's finished before His eyes. There is no such thing as luck, or chance for God. All genuine believers depend only on God. It was not by chance Christ died on the cross, it was not by chance or fade that Jacob's name was change by God to Israel, or that Pharoah was even born. No writer of Scripture use the expression "it rains" they instinctively speak of God sending rain. The possibility of accident and chance are excluded and even "the lot was an accepted means of obtaining the decision of God" (Joshua 7:16: 14:2: 1 Sam. 10:19: Jonah 1:7). All things without exception, indeed, are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12


As much as it pains me, I must agree with Mark/Christan here. He is speaking to the brethren here. Its scriptural that God does give every believer a measure of faith and along with that faith different gifts.

What is not scriptural is that He withholds the capacity to understand and believe the gospel from anyone.
---CraigA on 5/6/12


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Ginger, you are right on.
Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to EVERY MAN that is AMONG YOU, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly,(why?) according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith
---michaei_e on 5/6/12


ginger, just because you do not believe or can see or hear, you do not have to cherry pick something and just throw it out there. We are here to speak Truth.
"A measure of faith" you seem to think this measure is given to everybody in the world but you are wrong. The context does not allow it. Paul was speaking to the brethren (believers) (v.1) "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith." (emphasis added). "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith."
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12


MarkV,
The Bible says that a measure of faith is given to every man.
When they hear the word of God, they have to choose where that faith will go. To God or to something else.
You are confusing the faith we already have to God increasing our faith we already have.

What is confusing about "Christ died for your sins. Christ rose again to give you new life. Christ died to free you from sin"?
Asolutely nothing!

Predestination has to do with the plan God set before time. Christ coming to die for the sins of the world.
When it concerns Christians. It means we are predestined to BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. TO be like him.
Yet here you go again, cherry picking to back up your false doctrine.
---ginger on 5/5/12


ginger, faith comes from God, without God you can do nothing.
Then you say,

" For by grace you have been saved through faith, "and that not of yourself" it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9). if man has faith already, why does the Bible say it has to come?
"Faith comes" from hearing, and "hearing by the Word of God"

Then you say:
"This is why we need the preaching."

But "The preaching of the Cross is "to them that perish foolishness," but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" ( 1 Cor. 1:18).
It is still foolishness to you, why?
---Mark_V. on 5/5/12


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Amen Kath,
Nothing happens before we believe but a lot happens after we believe.
The bible does not say we are given faith to believe. It teaches that we have a choice to believe or not. God is looking for a people that will put their faith and trust in HIM, because he has given all a measure of faith. It is where we put that faith that is important.
This is why we need the preaching.
It is why Paul preached. No one receives the holy spirit until AFTER they believe.
There is proof of this through out the entire bible.
---ginger on 5/4/12


Adetunji, great answer. Those of the flesh are not children of God. There is an "Israel after the flesh" (1Cor. 10:18) and an "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). Paul said,
"I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am an apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" Paul was a Jew, and hoped that as the Gentiles responded to his preaching about the Messiah, that this would "provoke". some of his Jewish friends to examine the claims of Christ, hopefully this would lead "some" to believe in Jesus. This would not be necessary if all Israel was going to be saved. Thanks
---Mark_V. on 5/3/12


The great father of the faithful saw the day of Christ through the telescope of God's promise, by the eye of faith. Abraham, Isaac, Jocob, and others, did not obtain the fulfillment of that promise, because they died before the coming of Christ, Yet they trusted in the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/12


Yes exactly, OT saints did not receive the promise of the SPIRIT. However they sure saw the promise of SAlvation. These are those in Hebrews 12..The Spirits of JUST MEN made Perfect.

There were no little seeds or spirit babies before the foundation of the world. That again is Mormon Belief.
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


"We are born of above, meaning Born Again of the Spirit of God, that makes us Spiritual children." kathr

Strange, very strange indeed.
---christan on 4/27/12

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

SEE Spirit here is a CAPITOL S.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


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1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God, and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is "born of God" sinneth not, but he that is "begotten of God" keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Born of God, Begotten of God is what it is to be BORN AGAIN.
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


God made promises before time was time.
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2). To help us, the promises were not only spoken but written.
"in the volume of the book it is written" (Ps. 40:7). "The promise is sure to all the seed" (Rom. 4:16).
Did not the Lord say, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad" (John 8:56).
The great father of the faithful saw the day of Christ through the telescope of God's promise, by the eye of faith. Abraham, Isaac, Jocob, and others, did not obtain the fulfillment of that promise, because they died before the coming of Christ, Yet they trusted in the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/12


christian: I believe Apostle Paul was emphasizing that true children of God by Abraham are those who believe what God says and walk in faith by His words[like Abraham did]. That is, a great grand children of Abraham {by flesh} that walks not in faith on God's instructions will not inherit eternal life in Christ Jesus (the Seed).
---Adetunji on 5/2/12


Only those of the Seed are of the promises.
Jesus said to a group of Jewish people who claimed to be descendants of Abraham,
"If you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham" Jesus denied their claim.
---Mark_V. on 4/28/12

MarkV, I see you quoted Romans 8 and then 9, but the answer you should be looking for is answered in Romans 10.

What exactly happened to Israel...you will find the answer in Romans 10.

They failed to do the WORKS OF ABRAHAM!!!!What exactly are the WORKS OF ABRAHAM???

Answer is in Romans 10.

There is only ONE SEED markv, not many little elect seeds. That's again MORMON! Look it up if you don't believe me.
---kathr4453 on 5/2/12


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The Children of PROMISE are those who are Born Again of the Spirit. The Spirit of the Life of Christ is and was that PROMISE.

Isaac was a child of PROMISE. In Isaac will thy seed be CALLED. The seed is Christ.

The children of the flesh are all who remain in their old adam 1 unregenerate state of which we were all born into.

That which is flesh is flesh...Adam 1,

That which is Spirit is Spirit...those in the Last Adam...

You have to be IN CHRIST to be a Child of PROMISE.

You MUST be Born Again of Christ. Your old adam1 is not rebirthed. and even if it was, is STILL FLESH!
---kathr4453 on 5/1/12


Christan, (Romans 9:8) "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"
Abrahams other children by Hagar and Keturah were not chosen to receive promises.
The Pharisees and Sadducees had no faith like Abraham, yet they claimed to be his children. John the Baptist exposed this delusion, "Don't think that" he said. John then laid the "axe" to the root of the trees by saying that if they didn't bear "good fruit" through faith in God like Abraham did, they would be "cut down and thrown into the fire" Clearly natual lineage alone is not enough. Without faith and a spiritual connection with the Almighty, those Jews were doomed.
---Mark_V. on 5/1/12


//Kathr, it's obvious Romans 9-11 is Israel's past, present and future.//

Amen
---michael_e on 4/29/12


Christan, Kathr gets caught in her own web.
(Rom. 8:14,15,16) says "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Rom. 9:6) then, "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel" Refers specifically to the privileges and promises God had revealed to Israel. Because not all of the descendants of Abraham are true heirs of the promises. The children of the flesh are not of the Seed who is Christ. Only those of the Seed are of the promises.
Jesus said to a group of Jewish people who claimed to be descendants of Abraham,
"If you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham" Jesus denied their claim.
---Mark_V. on 4/28/12


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"Does anyone here find it STRANGE that neither MarkV nor christan can come up with any verse that says we are re-birthed? Or that the SPIRIT re-births our man spirit?" kathr - from New Birth or Rebirth

And from this very same and confused heart comes,

"We are born of above, meaning Born Again of the Spirit of God, that makes us Spiritual children." kathr

Strange, very strange indeed.
---christan on 4/27/12


"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly" > in Romans 2:28-29. So, I would say Paul means the real Israel is those who obey Jesus.

Also, this chapter nine of Romans shows how our being blessed with God does not depend on our own ability to choose (2 Corinthians 3:5, Philippians 2:13, 2 Corinthians 12:9). So, this scripture shows that being a flesh and blood Jew can not control God and decide who God considers that person to be.

We all need to be humble and obedient. I need to totally trust and depend on how He is able . . . to deny myself (Luke 9:23) . . . how God has me do this.
---willie_c: on 4/26/12


Michael_e, I love in Galatians that we are Sarah's children, ABOVE and free. Nothing about Jacob's seed or children in Galatians.

If Romans 9 contradicts Galatians, re flesh/spirit, and Galatians compliments Romans 6-8, along with Colossians, Philippians 1st Corinthians 15, etc, it's obvious Romans 9-11 is Israel's past, present and future.

Isaac=children of the Spirit.

It's interesting too, betweer Jacob and Esau, Jacob renames Israel is not considered children of the SPIRIT either. As we see the majority of Jacob's children rebelled against God.
---kathr4453 on 4/26/12


Rom. 9:7 (The Seed of the woman through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.)
Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, (those from Ishmael and later from Esau) these are not the children of God: (they're children of Abraham, but not in the line of the Covenant)but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Isaac and Ishmael have to be separated. Gen 21:9-12
Paul says
Gal.3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Romans is basic to understanding doctrines of Grace, as Paul brings out in Rom.9,10,11 God dealing with Israel, and where Israel stands even today.
---michael_e on 4/25/12


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We are born of above, meaning Born Again of the Spirit of God, that makes us Spiritual children.

The first man Adam was a life giving SOUL.

The Last man Adam, Jesus Christ is THE life giving spirit. That was not first that was spiritual. Our old man or Adam 1 nature was never spiritual, but carnal. So re-birthing of man's spirit is not what Born again of Christ is about. Even if Adam had a spirit that never died????he would still be carnal, according to 1st Corinthians 15. So re-birthing your man spirit???? does not make you spiritual.

Anyone can be Born of Above when they receive that Life Giving Spirit, that is The Spirit of the LIFE of Christ.

---kathr4453 on 4/25/12


Romans 9:8 is dealing with the doctrine of election.

The children of God are God's chosen (Eph 1:4-6, John 6:37, Rom 9:11, 2 Thes 2:13 etc.)
---trey on 4/25/12


Compare this with Gal 4-5, where the two sons of Abraham are compared in an allegory about Christians and Jews after the flesh.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/25/12


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