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New Birth Or Rebirth

New Birth or Rebirth? Do you know the difference? There is a difference.

Rebirth is re-incaranation. We know reincarnation is not taught in scriptuure.

But so many use Born again as rebirth rather than being Born Anew, as being a NEW CREATURE. Why? Is it ignorance or false doctrine?

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 ---kathr4453 on 4/25/12
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I don't mind others agreeing with you. I have disagreed with them too, they preach works for salvation---MarkV

I have not once preached works for salvation. When are you gonna stop this lying? Is everything black and white for you? Its either faith in predestination or works for salvation. One day you will actually listen to what people say they believe!

Just as scripture declares, I called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:12,13) believing that He died for my sins and rose again to give me a new life and He came into my heart and changed me. Those are not MY works. They are HIS.
---CraigA on 5/8/12


Steven, again you want to criticize what I say to Kathr, but she is special. Nothing like you or anyone else. I tried for two years edification, and that did not work. So I answer her with the same respect she shows me.
And you say,
"If I was a newly born christian and take you as an example, I would surely think twice about being one."

If you were a newly born Christain, you would have the Spirit of God, and you would love the Truth and the gathering of believers, Jesus Church, you would not tell others it is the church of satan, and you would defend Almighty God and not tell others He is hoping for something when He knows all things, and you would defend God with your life as so many have through history.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/12


Mark_V.: "Kathr, false teachings get into the church because of people like you who like to question the deity of Jesus Christ by confusing every topic that has to do with HimSteveng on 5/7/12

Well I've never questioned the DEITY of Jesus Christ who in the beginning was the Word, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God, and the WORD was made flesh.

MarkV hates and detests this verse. Even John said in 1st John, they handles the WORD OF LIFE. So does John too deny the deity of Christ? Revelation calls Him the WORD OF GOD.

Again MarkV, please show us scripture where our old man Adam was re-birthed by the Spirit.

Talk about changing every subject to AVOID the question.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


The flesh is continually been change by the Spirit all through the believers life. That is called sanctification. The Spirit is changing us to be more Christ like everyday. Those are the fruits of the Spirit. Why can you not see this? That is really the question. Kathr, says we crucified the flesh but it is very much there. It is a battle that goes on in our minds and hearts, but we are not slaved to sin anymore, we have been set free.
---Mark_V. 5/7/12


Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


So MarkV is OPENLY admitting he is NOT CHRIST'S.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


MarkV, how can you say Kathr doesn't post scripture? She does all the time.
Do you bother to read the scripture she posts? I read the scripture you post, that she posts, that anyone posts just to see if it is truth.

A person should not pick 1 verse or 2 verses and make doctrine out of it. That is what cults come from. We must read all the verses in their context so that we can understand and become strong.

Why are you praying for your son, when you told me that it does not good?
You should pray for him but how does it do any good when you don't believe God WILL save him?
---ginger on 5/8/12




Mark_V.: "Kathr, false teachings get into the church because of people like you who like to question the deity of Jesus Christ by confusing every topic that has to do with Him,.."

Not really comforting words of edification. If I was a newly born christian and take you as an example, I would surely think twice about being one.
---Steveng on 5/7/12


Kathr, I pray for my son everyday, because I know only God can change his heart, give him eyes to see, ears to hear spiritual Truth. I also pray for you that He changes your heart. I know my son, of himself, cannot change his own heart, neither can you. God has to quicken his spirit and bring him to Life together with Christ. If God does not do this, I will never know, since one day I will die. We do what we are called to do, teach them the gospel truth. The word of God brings faith, when it comes with power, you will hear it. It comes with conviction. So don't feel sorry for me, I know where I'm going.
"It shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer, and while they are yet speaking I will hear" (Isa. 65:21).
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12


Such hostility. Such bickering. Such, oh well, you get the idea.

Juliet: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell just as sweet."

Both old and new testaments show:

> born again
> rebirth
> reborn
> a new creature
> born of God
> redemption
> new life
> change
> restoration
> put on Christ
> a new heart
> a new spirit
> pass from death into life
> our old man is cusified
> put on a new man

Maybe not in these exact words, but you get the idea that man has changed from unrighteousness into righteousnes.
---Steveng on 5/7/12


So MarkV, am I to understand you have never prayed for your son? So you figure why pray for him, he's either going to be saved or not. My prayer means nothing..right. So is preaching the Gospel to others a waste of time too.

I mean the Gospel that Jesus died for our sin, that is the sin of all mankind everywhere, past , present and future.

MarkV, you sound so bitter. I really feel so sorry for you.

And exactly what is it you minister to WOMEN anyway.

I also don't believe men should be ministering to women. God said older woman are to minister to women.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


Kathr, more talk, more gossip. More insults and until your heart is change, I will treat you as hostile. I don't mind others agreeing with you. I have disagreed with them too, they preach works for salvation. They pray to God to change the hearts of their friends and family members but in their hearts they don't believe God can do anything unless the people let Him. God is really not God in your minds. He is just a man waiting for you to have mercy on Him, instead of Him having mercy on you. I understand where you guys are coming from. And you know what? I know you are not able to see the Truth, because after all, you say you don't need spiritual eyes to see, ears to hear or a heart to perceive, you believe you have it all while lost.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12




"NO MAN acts as you do. Catty, emotional, name calling, etc. You have all the symptoms of a woman, emotionally as well. LISA!"
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12

For a man to bring that charge, he would be called a woman biggot. That, not neccessarily from the one levied on but from others,
specially women in particular who would say, 'Is there something wrong with being a woman'?

Nevertheless, I concur with this truth "NO MAN acts as you do". Been here sice 2006 and remember Lisa all too well.
---Nana on 5/6/12


CraigA, back around 2007 or so there was Lisa, John T who were this overbearing. Lisa was a fanatic on no free will, and hijacked every question turning into no free will,( same exact arguments almost word for word) and also used the same EXACT poor grammar as MarkV does. They were all kicked off. But anyone can comeback with a new MO.

Lisa had hissy fits too, just like MarkV.

I've never seen a MAN or heard an man act and speak like MarkV. As soon as he/she is questioned, he pouts, plays the martyr, and makes it look like he's the victim. That's a woman thing you know, and emotionally immature woman who just can't get her way, that is.
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


Since you are a woman using a man's name here. You have all the symptoms of a woman, emotionally as well.---Kathr

Ive had that feeling for a long time... Its a little more evident on "Christan" though. It would certainly explain his/her paranoia that others are hiding behind different names so often.

What proof do you have that he is actually "Lisa"?
---CraigA on 5/6/12


Kathr, I'm praying for God to make a change in your life, as I did three years ago. I didn't force my wife to believe anything. She is a big girl with a true love for our sovereign Lord. She finally saw the real light. For twenty years she had taught, what you teach, free will, the works of man.
What was hard for her was admitting she had been wrong for so many years. Now her dependence is on God alone not on man. My grandson who just finished siminary has began to preach the gospel truth to my son, whom you always talk about. With God's will, he too will come to know the truth. I'm still praying for God to change him.
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12


MarkV I have never attacked your wife. What I really have issues with you on MarkV is that you are a pathological liar.

Now I have questioned YOUR ABUSE of your wife, so in fact I've defended her, NEVER ATTACKED her, like YOU did when you fought with her tooth and nail UNTIL she was forced to believe your doctrine.

You couldn't force your son to believe it and now you call him lost.

AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.

But MarkV, I really don't believe you even have wife anyway. Since you are a woman using a man's name here.

NO MAN acts as you do. Catty, emotional, name calling, etc. You have all the symptoms of a woman, emotionally as well. LISA!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


MarkV, People who read their bibles and KNOW the Word of God don't need to have the same verses pointed out word for word each time OVER & OVER.

Now I know you do that. How many times have we had to have Your exact 15 verses ( all that you believe) plastered here again and again and again? And even with that MarkV, it's all BLA BLA BLA BLA!

Where is the verse where our old man is REBIRTHED, since you want to get grumpy about scripture!

It isn't there, and that is why you get so nasty to me. Because I KNOW it isn't there. You KNOW I KNOW it isn't there. AND You hate that I call you on these things!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


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And besides MarkV, when I say Galatians I mean Galatians..the WHOLE BOOK.

When I say Romans 6-8 I MEAN ALL OF ROMANS 6-8.

The difference between you and me is I read the WHOLE of scripture, and you cherry pick. Your called a verse snatcher.

When I say Hebrews 10, I mean ALL of Hebrews 10.

Since I cannot post ALL of Hebrews 10 in 125 words, I really hope you will read it or remember what it says.

I See, your a baby, and I'll have to remember that. Just give you little sips of milk at a time out of a Sipy Cup.
(I I bet it's cute too, calvins face on it??)
Your not able to chew WHOLE FOODS yet. Thanks for letting me know.
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


Kathr, again you are talking a lot with no Scripture. Anyone can do that. Put a lot of religious words together mention Galations, but give no passage, mention Romans 9 give no passages. All a lot of talk. You can try to mix everything together, but you refuse to give context. Just a lot of talk.

I love brother Mark E. even if he does not agree with me on many things. I disgree with many, that does not mean I don't love them. He is a good brother who answers great. On the other hand you are not a very good person, In fact, you are the worse person I have answered, who has even attacked my wife. You also change the truth of Scripture to a lie on purpose, just to argue, but I am still not afraid of evil, no matter from where it comes from.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/12


MarkV, what you won't do and say to AVOID the question.

Weren't we now discussing the power of the Cross, of which you also attacked Mark_Eaton with?

And the fact that we are a NEW CREATION, old things, yes our old Adam too pass away.

We're not discussing your unmerited saved by FAITH through Grace doctrine! No, I didn't make a mistake. Although you deny it, that is what you believe and teach.

Abel didn't find favor in God's eyes, Abel's SACRIFICE did!
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


Genesis 4:3-5
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offeringfat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.


NO such thing as unmerited favor MarkV. And no such thing as any FAVOR without your evidence FIRST that you believe and obey.

Abels' offering and Abel cannot be separated any more than Cain and his offering.

Abel through his offering ADMITTED he was a sinner, and put his faith in the only one who could forgive SIN, through a BLOOD offering.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


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There was a flood and a man sitting on his rooftop had NO HOPE of survival. He could not swim, and saw no land. So He prayed. Lord save me. So God sent a boat to rescue him. The man said, no thanks, God is going to save me.

The man prayed again and theLord sent another boat. Again, he sent the boat away.

He drown. When standing before God, God asked, why didn't you get on the Boat? I sent 3 boats to save you. YOU HAD TO GET IN FIRST TO BE SAVED. Did you think I was just going to throw you in the boat? It was your responsibility to get in!

I sent the Boats.

God SENT His Son!
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


Mark E, you changed what you were saying. You said,

"This is how I visualize sin, death, and the new birth. I have no chance for life before I accept God's free gift of grace. I have no hope and I am alienated from God."

If you have no chance for life how can you accept God's free gift? That means you have a chance for life. And you lied.
You also said, "I have no hope and I am alienated from God." What is no hope? If you accept Christ when you said you had no hope, you lied again, there was a hope your own acceptance.
There's no line on the floor. What your claiming is that while lost you can hear the words of Christ and then follow Him. No one hears His words unless they are His sheep already.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/12


The preaching of the cross to USWARD ( those who are saved) is Galatians 2:20-21.

The whole of Galatians is THE CROSS as our way of life after salvation as well as before. It begins at salvation and continues to be through out all our life.. No longer I but Christ in me.

Those who rejected THE POWER of the cross, went back and tried to live in the flesh AGAIN under the Law.

Paul said these have FALLEN FROM GRACE. You can't fall from Grace unless you were once IN GRACE.

Paul ends Galatians that we are a NEW CREATURE. Not a REVISED REVIVED REMADE RE anything. When God looks at you he sees ONLY the NEW CREATURE In Christ. I AM BRAND NEW!
---kathr4453 on 5/2/12


"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight"

I know, you just forgot that part.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12


No MarkV, you don't understand this part. Here again Jesus is saying we are not rebirthed. We were reconciled through the body of His Flesh THROUGH DEATH....NOT REBIRTH.

This is what the preaching of the CROSS is all about.

Is THIS the part YOU think is foolishness? You must, since you argue against it constantly believing it foolish.
---kathr4453 on 5/2/12


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You do know that "the preaching of the cross to them that perish foolishness right? But unto us who are been saved it is the power of God," maybe God is wrong and you guys are right.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12

I do not follow your connection to this verse. I do not understand what I have said that would give you reason to think that I believe I am right and God is wrong.

My view is that God has told us that we need to be born from above, born of the Spirit. That we are not transformed, remade, changed, quickened or memamorphosized. Rather, newly born as in a new creature that never existed before. There is no "re-" anything. This is entirely new. Just as Scripture says, God makes all things new, including me.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/2/12


"... maybe God is wrong and you guys are right."
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12

... alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works
God asks , "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
1 Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

You have no place to call a man out who repeats what the word says, to be diligent in action.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---Nana on 5/2/12


Mark E, what you probably forgot to mention was the context. Those people you spoke of in (Col. 1:23) were already saved. They were willing. I know, you just forgot to mention (Col. 1:21,22):

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight"

I know, you just forgot that part.
You do know Mark that "the preaching of the cross to them that perish foolishness right? But unto us who are been saved it is the power of God," maybe God is wrong and you guys are right.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12


//If...the smallest of words God uses to ask us, are you willing?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/30/12//---I like this Mark Eaton.

//We are born 'from above'. Which the term 'born again' actually means.
---joseph on 4/29/12//---Agreed.

//Amen Kath and Nana! ---ginger on 5/1/12//---Amen.

The elect/chosen:Still---Stand.
Others:the process of elimination is in effect---who so ever...

Born from above---placed in a temporary existence --[process of elimination] ---for/into timeless existence.

Only those who truly love Him--rescued from this time/space existance into the timeless...

One God-different dimension(s).
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
---char on 5/1/12


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Amen Kath and Nana!

I believe that is why testamonies, preaching and teaching are so improtant.

If we never hear of how Great, Good, and merciful God is or never hear what he sacrificed for the whole world, then we would never know the truth.

And yes, anyone can hear that Christ died for our sins. That is not hidden. It is the truth. Nothing mysterious about it.
I heard growing up from my grandma all these things and guess what? it made me want to know more and God seeing this drew me in with his words. "Christ has died for your sins. Do you believe this?" I answered and said "YES!"
God gave me a new heart and made me a new creature!
---ginger on 5/1/12


Thank you kathr4453. You captured the essence of what I intended to convey which also is a clear message and a recurring theme in Scripture. The record show so many that simply sought the ways of the Lord and found grace in his eyes, Moses, Mary, Cornelius to name a few. Only I would add (which thing you know as santification) that those who find do not find a destination but rather a way. An example: "But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister,".
---Nana on 5/1/12


Nana, love your verses. Those already saved don't need to knock or seek.

You are correct. Markv fails to see Paul quoting OT here in Romans 3 and has taken it totally out of context.


The three wise men, did SEEK. Were they the elect? NO, but they HEARD about the Coming KING, just as Herod did and had all the firstborn murdered. Herod was not the Elect either, but was scared out of his wits that the SCRIPTURES foretelling of Jesus were true and right at his doorstep!

If no one absolutely NO ONE seek for God, how do you explain Joseph and Mary, etc.

When Jesus looked for his disciples, He said, Oh here is one without guile.

Did Abel, a sinner seek after God? Job? YES! Were they sinners..YES!
---kathr4453 on 5/1/12


Nana, great passage you gave concerning those who are the children of God. They can ask, and God will hear them.
But it is said of the Lost, (unbelievers)
"What then? Are we Jews better off? No, not at all, For I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin". As it is written, "None is righteous, no, not one, "no one understands, no one seeks for God" All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, "no one does good, not even one"
According to Scripture none of the lost seek God. You say they do, but God's word say they cannot.
---Mark_V. on 4/30/12


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Luke 11:9_10: "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you, seek, and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Luke 12:31 "But rather seek ye the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you."

John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

Are they 'natural man' who 'ask' and 'seek'?
Notice that the, "Father seeketh such to worship him."? Seeketh!
---Nana on 4/30/12


Well I had a natural birth and. A spiritual birth. The spiritual birth is the only thing that is important
---Shira4368 on 4/30/12


Kathr,
Here are some biblical terms that I believe all mean the same thing:
Born Again: John 3:7, 1 Pet 1:23
Quickened: Eph 2:1
Translated: Col 1:13
I will give them one heart... (spiritual heart transplant): Eze 11:19
Regeneration: Titus 3:5
Is passed from death unto life: John 5:24

In each case there is one that is passive and one that is active. The active one is always God. The passive one is the one born again or regenerated.
---trey on 4/30/12


Ruben, here are some verses for you:
Joh6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ro8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Until God regenerates us we cannot follow him. One more:
1Cor2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
---trey on 4/30/12


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"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12.13

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6,7

What's STRANGE, it's there in the Scriptures and you can't see!
---christan on 4/27/12

What strange about those two scripture verses is that (WE) have to do our part:

First one says 'many' receive him' Some did and some did not!

Second one tell us we 'must be born again" not we will be born again:)
---Ruben on 4/30/12


How is that possible if you have no chance before? You also say you have no hope, but you say you can accept God's free gift, meaning you do have a hope, and it is found in you.
--MarkV

Because God took the old lump and made a new one..NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST!!! Not reborn.
God did not create 2 seperate lumps.
he says he takes the lump of dishonor and makes a lump of honor out of it. Right there in Romans 9.
The SAME LUMP not a different lump.
One lump 2 seperate births, MarkV. Do you really believe you have to obey your flesh?
Wow, then why does God say not to walk in the flesh but IN the Spirit? Because your old fleshly man is dead and it is Christ in you that lives. You are a new creature not a remade, reborn one.
---ginger on 4/30/12


You also say you have no hope, but you say you can accept God's free gift, meaning you do have a hope, and it is found in you.
---Mark_V. on 4/29/12

Not so, my hope is in Jesus. My favorite chapter in the whole Bible tells me about the hope laid up for me and how Jesus rescued me from the domain of darkness and has reconciled me to God.

Yet, the chapter still has one little verse that many skip over because it makes the reader take diligent action:

Col 1:23 "if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..."

If...the smallest of words God uses to ask us, are you willing?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/30/12


jonweckl, you said,

"But as many as RECEIVED him..." Oh wait, that's also you quoting Jhn1:12 on 4/27/12. Why don't you tell him (er, yourself).. how can one RECEIVE him if that someone is dead?"
Your correct, no one can receive Him while he is still dead. He has to be made alive together with Christ by God. The dead refuse eternal life (Christ).
"And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins". And further explains,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (talking about believers the "us") even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved" (Eph. 2:1,4,5).
---Mark_V. on 4/30/12


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You have no chance for life before, but after you accept you do have a chance, How is that possible if you have no chance before?---Christan

Because God says we must show FAITH in Jesus Christ before we receive anything!

Is it so much for God to ask for a little acknowledgement for what He went through for us before He gives us that precious gift of his Spirit?
---LindaH on 4/29/12


Mark E, you said,

"I have no chance for life" before I accept God's free gift of grace. "I have no hope and I am alienated from God""

You have no chance for life before, but after you accept you do have a chance, How is that possible if you have no chance before? You also say you have no hope, but you say you can accept God's free gift, meaning you do have a hope, and it is found in you.
Concerning the word "rebirth" that you say is not found in Scripture, but the words "atonement" "sanctification" "redemption" "spiritual life" "awakening" are all synonyms to the word "rebirth"
---Mark_V. on 4/29/12


One would receive Him by learning and obeying His Words given to us by His eyewitness disciples. Are you willing to receive the words of Jesus Christ or not??

When we are born of a woman we are born into darkness because we have no knowledge of God or His Son. When we enter into the Light(truth) we are born of the Holy Spirit. John 3:20-21. John 8:31-32, John 12:46-50.
---barb on 4/29/12


Why don't you tell him (er, yourself).. how can one RECEIVE him if that someone is dead?
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


Excellent point, jon.
---CraigA on 4/29/12


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"New Birth or Rebirth?" New. We are born, or brought forth into life anew, by and through the Spirit. For "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Each happens once. "Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life." And that life is found only in Christ Jesus. The new birth is the Father's Spirit placed within us, and brought forth from us. Which causes, or enables us to walk in His statutes, and keep, and do, His judgments. Eze.36:26,27 For it is by His Spirit and grace, though His faith, that we are given to believe on the Lord Jesus, The Christ. We are born 'from above'. Which the term 'born again' actually means.
---joseph on 4/29/12


Here a fact so exciting, and when the Lord showed me this, I can't tell you how excited I was. Only those who really seek truth THROUGH God's Word will understand that excitement.

Here is for the Spiritually minded.

Calvinists say God has to circumcise their heart FIRST. Yet we see a different picture. Remember outward circuscision was a picture of the inward, just as our baptism is.

Look in Joshua, and read what all the men did AFTER all crossed over into the promised land.

The Jordan represents the CROSS, and Circumcision represents identification and the Land represents our Promise land, who is Christ Himself.

HE IS OUR LAND!!He is our LIFE! HE is our Milk and Honey.
---kathr4453 on 4/28/12


God may "draw" you toward the line but I do not believe He makes the decision for you. You still have to take the action and accept His Lordship and His free gift of grace. Once you do that, you are moved across the line into life.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/12


Exactly. this is exactly what Hebrews 3-4 is all about. God did not take Israel INTO the promise land against their will. Yes, He brought them to the line, and we see they had to FIRST have faith to cross over.

All scripture is for our edification, and this is a picture of salvation, as clearly stated in Hebrews. God did not give them any gift of faith. The GIFT was the Land. Faith was their own obedience to take what God already promised them.
---kathr4453 on 4/28/12


If God offers you eternal life, and it's for you to accept or reject, you really need to be institutionalized.
---christan on 4/27/12

What side of the "death" line were you on before you accepted the free gift of God?

Please do not tell me that God moved you over the line before you accepted His free gift.

God may "draw" you toward the line but I do not believe He makes the decision for you. You still have to take the action and accept His Lordship and His free gift of grace. Once you do that, you are moved across the line into life.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/12


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Christan> "Who in the right mind would reject eternal life if it was an offer?"

Jhn.3:19 "..the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light..."

Christan, those who love the darkness, those who does evil rejects the Light. They rejected the eternal life offered by God through His sons death.

By the way, someone contradicted your statement:"how does one who's dead able to accept..."

He said, "But as many as RECEIVED him..." Oh wait, that's also you quoting Jhn1:12 on 4/27/12. Why don't you tell him (er, yourself).. how can one RECEIVE him if that someone is dead?
---jonweckl on 4/28/12


Who in the right mind would reject eternal life, if it was an offer?---Christan

Because that eternal life is attained by Jesus Christ living IN you and some men don't want the be changed from their sinful ways. They are unrepentant.
---LindaH on 4/28/12


Mark Eaton, be prepared for the "I", "I", "I" thing... Here it comes. They don't believe man has any responsibility in the plan of salvation. God makes you do everything.
---CraigA on 4/28/12


God has to grant you faith to believe and convict your heart of the aweful sin you are in, and make you a new creation.

Nothing wrong with what you just said, however, you're missing the point in the middle where a man must trust in Jesus Christ to be made that new creation. That does not happen before Christ. It does not happen before faith.
---LindaH on 4/28/12


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Who in the right mind would reject eternal life, if it was an offer?
---christan on 4/27/12

Well christan, what about the other way around? According to MarkV God made a covenent with Adam /Eve. He said God promised them eternal life IF THEY OBEYED. Now they already had a spirit according to you, and with that perfect fellowship etc, THEY CHOSE to die.

And according to you they died and their spirit man died. Now you say the spirit man is quickened and somehow today that GUARANTEES obedience?

It's still man's spirit..correct? Can spirits of anykind really DIE? Jesus preached to the spirits in prision. Were they not conscience?
---kathr4453 on 4/28/12


"This is how I visualize sin, death, and the new birth." MarkEaton

You're right about death. ALL mankind born into this world is already "dead in sins and trespasses", that's 100%! As for the "new birth" in Christ, not all of mankind receive this.

"I have no chance for life before I accept God's free gift of grace. I have no hope and I am alienated from God."

Accept? How does one who's "dead" able to "accept" anything, especially the spiritual things of God? If God offers you eternal life, and it's for you to accept or reject, you really need to be institutionalized. Who in the right mind would reject eternal life, if it was an offer?
---christan on 4/27/12


That's why Christ came to die, but only for the sins of His people (Matthew 1:21).
---christan on 4/27/12

Let's try a visual example.

There is a line on the floor. Before Adam sins, everyone in history is on the side of the line with God. After Adam sins, everyone crosses the line and is on the opposite side of God. The line is death.

This is how I visualize sin, death, and the new birth. I have no chance for life before I accept God's free gift of grace. I have no hope and I am alienated from God.

When I accept Christ, I cross the line to life with God. I am given a new birth of life from God inside of me. A spiritual life with the HS living in me.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/27/12


New Birth or Rebirth? Do you know the difference? There is a difference.

Rebirth is re-incaranation. We know reincarnation is not taught in scriptuure.

But so many use Born again as rebirth rather than being Born Anew, as being a NEW CREATURE. Why? Is it ignorance or false doctrine?

---kathr4453 on 4/25/12

WOW. I have to commend youon your posts

Although I am not sure that rebirth is reincarnation
I have to say ignorance
---francis on 4/27/12


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"Does anyone here find it STRANGE that neither MarkV nor christan can come up with any verse that says we are re-birthed? Or that the SPIRIT re-births our man spirit?" kathr

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12.13

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6,7

What's STRANGE, it's there in the Scriptures and you can't see!
---christan on 4/27/12


Dictionary defines "quickened" as "to make alive". Refer to the dictionary once in a while instead of always kicking and screaming.
---christan on 4/27/12

Sorry Kathr. You have been holding the fort for me. This is a subject near and dear to me. Thanks.

Christan, the dictionary also defines the word born as "brought into life" and "the coming into existance".

"Brought into life" and "to make alive" sound like the same thing to me. Both dicuss something being done to us (GK passive) and both discuss new life.

The key difference is Jesus taught us about being born again. Your interpretation of regeneration supplies the other definition.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/27/12


Does anyone here find it STRANGE that neither MarkV nor christan can come up with any verse that says we are re-birthed? Or that the SPIRIT re-births our man spirit?

Anything to AVOID the question.

Bla, Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla...

BLA all you want. Where is your scripture to back up your false doctrine???

There is none...So what do we do when we are caught with our pants down....

Start cursing, accising others, calling names, telling others they are not saved..

Yea, Yea Yea, some ol same ol same ol....

So very underwhelmed by your "Election!"
---kathr4453 on 4/27/12


Kathr, you speak so much unbilical things that you don't even want to admit your own sin. I have no time to look up your lies, they are too many.
Second, you say. "Markv wants us to believe"
I don't say things so that you may believe. I say them because they are Truths. I know you don't believe, I just finished saying that. God has to make you alive together with Christ, God has to grant you faith to believe and convict your heart of the aweful sin you are in, and make you a new creation. Nothing but a miracle from God can do that. I cannot.
---Mark_V. on 4/27/12


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kathr, here's bursting your 'free-will' bubble, Truth be told, it was all in God's plan from eternity to chose a people for Himself - and where's mankind at this point? According to Scriptures, He will manifest His love unto them unconditionally, not because they did good that He should save them.

In this Holy plan, He will forgive them because He loves them. He'll give them His gift of faith through regeneration that they will repent and believe in His Son for salvation. That's why Christ came to die, but only for the sins of His people (Matthew 1:21).

Dictionary defines "quickened" as "to make alive". Refer to the dictionary once in a while instead of always kicking and screaming.
---christan on 4/27/12


MarkV, WHEN did I ever say I came to Christ with NO FAITH??

More lies MarkV...


Lie, lie lie. All you can do is lie lie lie to justify your false doctrine.

God did not rebirth my Old adam in order to believe.

My Old adam placed faith in Jesus Christ TO SAVE me.

If I were already Saved, I would need no faith at all.

So what you are really saying is you were given faith to believe in Calvinism!

My faith is in Jesus Christ, where God Justifies the Ungodly. I did not have to already be Godly in order to be Justified.
---kathr4453 on 4/27/12


45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy, the second man is the Lord from heaven.
---

MarkV still wants us to believe the Last Man Adam EXISTED and quickened Abel giving him POWER to believe called faith.

You are saying the MAN Christ Jesus existed prior to His incarnation.

What a load of LIES from HELL markV.

only Mormons believe Jesus the MAN existed from the beginning.

I still believe you re Mormon trying to cause trouble/confusion among the body of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 4/27/12


Colossians 2:12-14
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
,

christan, is saying he was baptized into Christ DEATH Compare Romans 6, and already Forgiven before faith in Christ.

. This happen when and after we believe not before.

And still nothing about our man spirit being rebirthed first.
---kathr4453 on 4/27/12


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So christan, if you were already quickened before ever hearing the gospel, already forgiven, already crucified with Christ, and raised up a new creature..that's what quickened means...(the Last man Adam was a quickening spirit)your sin and flesh already nailed to the cross( Colossians 2) why do you have to BEG for mercy AFTER all this takes place?

And it appears you, today, STILL HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE of being crucified with Christ, and totally refute that doctrine. NO LONGER I BUT CHRIST in me. ( Adam was crucified with Christ...NOT REBIRTHED!

Adam was a life giving soul, and not a spiritual being. 1st Cor 15. Yet you claim he was and just needed his spirit man re-birthed?
---kathr4453 on 4/27/12


Kathr, you do not understand spiritual truth. Why?
"..The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
You said you came to Christ with no faith, you thought you could come before Christ with your free will, in your filthty sin, and somehow God was obligated to give you what you want. But you are wrong. In fact, most everything filthy that was in you, is still in you, nothing has changed. Ginger and Linda sound just like you, give each other amens. Why not try a man's name? You even tried a godly name, which didn't work, it gave you away.
---Mark_V. on 4/27/12


Paul clearly tells the Ephesians of their spiritual state before coming the Truth, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" Ephesians 2:1

It's also consistent with Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" - Paul wasn't talking to "dead people" and he was referring to the spirit man in these verses.

But alas, there are multitudes who think they are not dead in the spirit. All because they imagine they have a 'free-will' to obey God's commandments. That's why the epistles were written in the first place, to tell us we're "dead in the spirit"!
---christan on 4/26/12


You are upset because your false doctrine is in question.

Show proof with scripture rather than slinging mud!
---kathr4453 on 4/26/12


A natural reaction when one is running out of defenses
---LindaH on 4/26/12


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MarkV, please find the word REBIRTH in scripture. You presume Born Again means re-birth rather than NEW BIRTH.

And again I ask, instead of throwing MUD and a smoke screen, show where God regenerates man's spirit.

If what you say is true, you are no better than the first Adam before he sinned. STILL EARTHLY, still made of CLAY, and still capable of sinning and DYING over and over. Your teaching re-incarnation of the MAN.

It's just not scriptural.

I'm not on a mormman web-site am I? If so, then I can understand being accused of causing trouble.

You are upset because your false doctrine is in question.

Show proof with scripture rather than slinging mud!
---kathr4453 on 4/26/12


MarkV, lies again. When have I ever stated Jesus with a sinful nature?

You see, making up lies about thise IN CHRIST is the same as making up LIES about Jesus Christ.

When you attack His saints you are actually attacking Christ. The SINLESS spotless lamb of God who takes away teh sin of the world.
---kathr4453 on 4/26/12


Where did you get the idea that this Ravi Zachariah person==or you, for that matter==had the truth?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/26/12


Kathr, false teachings get into the church because of people like you who like to question the deity of Jesus Christ by confusing every topic that has to do with Him, His two natures, the deity of the Father, and the Holy Spirit. You have attack every espect of the essentials of the Christian faith. Only heretics do that. That is how wicked teachings get in the Church. You twist the word by using words like reincarnation, Jesus with a sinful nature, no indwelling of the Spirit in the Old Testament, to questioning the eternal Son of God. You have not stopped since I have met you. Does that answer your question?
---Mark_V. on 4/26/12


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Well, there are people who say they are "born again", but how they are now is the same as before. So, that old person has only been born all over again.

But "born again" can mean I have died to sin and now I'm born again but as a different person.

So, it depends on what it means. The same words can have exact opposite meanings. A "citation", for example can be a fine or praise. "Fine" can be trouble or . . . things are just fine (c:

So, we need to know what God means, for each word, and get to know a person so we know what that person means > "swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19).
---willie_c: on 4/26/12


Well Cluny, Ravi Zachariah wrote a book about it, and obviously did not consider it foolish disputes over words.

Beeing he came from India, and preaches all over the world and witnesses to Hundu etc, seeing how our Church has been inultrated with false teachings, I disagree with your attitude.

If you chose to stay ignorant Cluny do just that.

Others may actually want to know what is happening in our churches and HOW these false teachings get in.


The TRUTH is a matter of LIFE and DEATH.
---kathr4453 on 4/26/12


kathr, you are indulging in foolish disputes over words, which the Bible forbids.

The Greek word "anagennisis" means "re-born" or "re-birth." But something that is "re-" is also "new" or even "again".

And while I've got your attention, read Luke 1 for two people who were filled with the Holy Spirit (that means He was IN them) before Jesus ascended, namely St. John and his mother St. Elizabeth.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/25/12


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