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Purpose Of Holy Spirit

If men are predestined to a particular fate, what is the purpose of conviction by the Holy Spirit?

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 ---CraigA on 4/29/12
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//Was Adam cursed or the ground?
The ground was cursed.
Why?
TO punish Adam. So is Adam cursed in all this or is Adam being punished in all this?// ginger

does "for your sake" in Genesis 3 mean because of you or for you sake. i think both. either way, we have to depend on Him and Him only.
---aka on 5/17/12


Another interesting point is found in Deut 28. God gave Israel the Promise land. The Land of Milk and Honey. That is also a foreshadowing of our life IN CHRIST. Today, the Church does not inherit land , but Christ and those blessings in Christ in Heavenly places, In Christ. HE is our Milk and Honey, and grapes so big and juicy etc.

Those earthly blessings given to Israel in comparison to what God told Adam & Eve shows us a very deep truth here.

Of coarse markv will find this to be a depraved statement.

God cursed Cain, not the land of NOD.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/12


No one that is convicted by the Holy Spirit is going to hell. Christ said this:
Joh10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
His people hear him. They respond to the Master.

Christ also said:
Joh8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
All the sheep hear but the goats don't. Both sheep and goats are sinners. The difference is that the sheep are convicted when they sin, the goats are not.
In other words, the Holy Ghost doesn't speak to the wicked. The Holy Ghost speaks to God's children.
---trey on 5/17/12


No MArkV, I am not cursed, because Jesus became a curse for me. I don't have to Keep the things written in the Law of Moses whereby if I fail to keep them I am cursed.

Praise God! I am AT REST in Christ!

Are you?? Oh but when were you ever under the Law of Moses??

James tells us the same thing. If you want to keep the LAW, you have to KEEP all the Law for if you offend in one, you have offended in all.

NOW we are under the law of Liberty in Christ.

Not Liberty to sin...or use it as a cloak to gossip about others behind their backs etc. But you wouldn't know anything about that now would you.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/12


Thank you Strongaxe.
You explained it beautifully.

Now look at what you wrote.

Was Adam cursed or the ground?
The ground was cursed.
Why?
TO punish Adam. So is Adam cursed in all this or is Adam being punished in all this?

The question was, was Adam cursed? NO. Punished? YES.
Now do you see what Kathr is trying to say?
---ginger on 5/17/12




ginger:

You wrote: Do you believe that punishment is the same as a curse?

Why did God curse the serpent? He did not do so on a whim. He did it to punish the serpent for what he did to Adam.

Why did God curse the ground for Adam's sake? He did not do so on a whim. He did it to punish Adam for disobedience.
---StrongAxe on 5/17/12


Kathr, what's really interesting is that you think you are not cursed. That is what is interesting, maybe because you say you are a Jew. Even Jesus became a curse for us.

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree)" (Gal. 3:13).
All mankind was cursed by Adam, for God imputed his sin to all descendants of Adam. And only through Christ becoming a curse for us, can that curse (eternal death) be removed.
---Mark_V. on 5/17/12


Strongaxe,
Do you believe that punishment is the same as a curse?

I think Katr is right. I don't think that they are the same.
Death of our physical bodies is the punishment for sin.Sickness, stife, all these things.
Eternal death is only avoided by being in Christ.
Even though we are in Christ we still have to go through the first death..physical death.
Curses are something that we carry around with us and they can be broken...by Christ.
Not sure If I am explaining right but I believe there is a difference between curse and punishment.
---ginger on 5/17/12


Adam brough DEATH upon HIMSELF. Yes, in Adam ALL die.

But no where was any BOOK of LAW (S) and Ordinance (S) given to Adam & Eve that they had to continue in, before or after the fall.

Let's learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

The Serpent was CURSED, and the Ground was CURSED. and the only other PERSON CURSED was Cain.

Deut 28 seems to say that God would BLESS the ground and that their grain, etc would in fact be blessed out of obedience AFTER the Fall.

God did not put any MARK on Adam & EVE.

Those who are slain with the Sword of God's mouth( Revelation) will be those who take the MARK of the beast out of their own free will, bringing upon themselves God's wrath.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/12


kathr4453:

Blessings and curses of Deutronomy 28 do not supercede curses mentioned elsewhere.

Adam was originally without sin, but after the Fall, ALL are tainted with sin, and "by one man Sin entered into the world". Is this not the very archetype of a generational curse?

Jesus's said whoever follows him will never die, but that was metaphorical, not literal. All Christians in history (except a few alive at his Second Coming) will have physically died, all because of Adam.

In Revelation, Jesus will slay many with a "sword that comes out of his mouth". This is likely a metaphor for speaking death with a word. That is surely a most powerful curse, yet the word "curse" is not mentioned.
---StrongAxe on 5/15/12




What's really interesting about Markv saying God told Adam if he ate of the fruit of the Tree of GOOD and Evil, God would CURSE Adam to Death. Can anyone find such words stated in Genesis? I can't find that verse.. " If you eat of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil, I will CURSE you to death"

So God PREDESTINED that Adam would disobey, and God Predestined that God/He would CURSED HIS OWN SOVEREIGN WILL. Then you are saying God CURSED Himself, satan,man, earth and Heaven along with woman's ovaries.

TOO Funny MarkV.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/12


Kathr, any breaking of God's law is sin. Sin is defined as a trasgression of the law. Sin of commission is committing sins of actions. When God says, "You shall not" and we do what is disallowed, we commit sin. A sin of Ommision is failure to do what God commands. If God commands us to love our neighbor and we fail to do so, that's sin. Sin is the breaking of God's commands, whether written or spoken by God.
Sin is the action performed by reasonable creatures. As creatures made in the image of God, we are free moral agents, because we have a mind and a will, we are capable of moral sins. When we do what we know is wrong we chose to disobey God's law and sin. Adam disobeyed the commandment of God.
---Mark_V. on 5/16/12


Men are not predestined to a particular fate. That sounds like some kind of Jehovah's Witness teaching or something. They do not believe people have the ability to make choices for themselves. I'm not sure if anyone has ever done a count of how many times the word "choose" appears in the Bible, or how many times God specifically commands someone to make a choice, but it's probably more times than most Jehovah's Witnesses can count.
---Jed on 5/15/12


StrongAxe, MarkV keeps using OT Mosaec Law to prove his point. WHAT Book of LAWS and ORDINANCES did God give Adam/Eve to do all that was written in those Books TO DO?

God said to Abraham, I will bless those who Bless you and CURSE those who Curse you.

WE see in Romans 9 that is exactly what happened to Pharoah.

I believe we are talking about two different issues here. MarkV still doesn't get it. He makes up things based on scripture that oesn't apply to the situation at hand.

And some will NEVER see death, if Jesus comes today...I won't. I'll just have a new glorified Body when I meet Jesus in the clouds!.

I believe you all are watching too many TBN shows where curses are taught that they are passed down.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


StrongAxe even went as far as saying the CURSE on Adam & Eve cannot be lifted even in Jesus. However, Strongaxe, how then do you explain Deut 28.

You see, if you actually took the time to READ and follow through with what someone else shares here, we all may learn something. BUT when MarkV gets involved, it does get ugly, people take sides and NEVER read what the conversation is all about.

BUT even with that said no verse ever says God CURSED Adam /Eve.

So Cluny, how bout them apples. TWO FACED HUH!

And you got all antsey about WHERE the Mark was ands wasn't?

OK where is the verse God SPECIFICALLY CURSED ADAM/EVE!
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


LIFE BEGINS AGAIN:

Genesis 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Because of Cain who was CURSED who mingled with the line of SETH , turning away from God, GOD brought an end to all those who lived before Noah and his sons. Even Noah's ants and uncles cousins etc also died in the flood that covered the whole earth.

The New Earth, that which came out of the Flood was not cursed.

Now all this old creation will pass away and a NEW heaven and earth will be. BUT one must say that even Heaven now must be CURSED that it needs a New One.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


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unless you are in Christ you are cursed. For it is written.
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12

Not trying to be smart or anything, just a question..
I am a woman in Christ, saved..
If the curse has been lifted, then why do I still feel pain in child birth?

I know why, but I am wondering if you do?


I don't think any of them have realized the difference between what happened to Adam and Eve and the law given to Moses.
---ginger on 5/15/12


...Cursed is everyone who does not conintue in all things which are written in the book of the Law, to them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith. ----Mark_V. on 5/15/12

Ginger, MarkV still can't distringush the difference between the BOOK of the Law, the Law of Moses, and Galatians being that of the Law of Moses vs Grace.

And he thinks he's a teacher. You can't be a teacher markv, if you can't rightly divide the word of truth.

MarkV's "PRIDE" keeps him bound and blind!
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


\\Cluny, it bothers me more than it bothers you. A Mark it is. Where??? sorry, no forehead mentioned. Hand Forehead foot, ear, nose???Does that change the fact that Cain was cursed? NO..
\\

YOU were the one who made the non-Biblical claim that the mark was placed on Cain's forehead, kathr, not I.

\\But you teach cannibalism Cluny...clearly NOT in the bible.\\

The Bible DOES teach that the bread becomes the Body.

Not only do you prove that again, you don't believe the Bible, but you show yourself of one mind with the Roman pagans who accused Christians of paganism and the modern atheists who mock the Eucharist.

Good company, kathr!

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/15/12


kathr4453:


Whether or not the word "curse" was actually used, it was still a curse. Let's suppose, say, God told you "I will curse the ground for your sake - everywhere you walk, all plants within 10' of you will wither", and if plants died anywhere you went. EVERYONE would agree, YOU are under a curse.

Woman would suffer labor pains, and be subservient to men. Men would have to toil to get food from the earth. How are these not curses? And if not, why would God mention them specifically as punishments?

And despite Jesus's sacrifice, Christians STILL physically die, suffer childbirth, till the soil, etc.
---Strongaxe on 5/15/12


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Strongaxe, thanks for diving right in. Not many do. You wiggle the waters and watch out, you might get drowned. With Eloy, you just get condemned, with Kathr, you get her wrath.
She says she has jewish background. Now, if they are cursed (Jews) that puts her and her kind cursed. Oh, she thinks they are blessed. As long as they reject Christ they are cursed. Cursed to death. And so is everyone who is not in Christ. They have broken the law and owe a debt to God they themselves cannot pay. Only faith in Christ can take care of that debt for them. Most Jewish people would just admit they don't believe in the Messiah period. Instead, she rather deny there is a curse on all mankind who is not of faith. Just another twisting of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


ginger, my believes are God centered, not man centered. You said,
"MarkV thinks that consequences for disobedience is the same as a curse."
Don't you know that breaking God's law brings the curse? Adam broke God's commandments. Sin is rebellion against God?
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not conintue in all things which are written in the book of the Law, to them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith. Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them" (Gal. 3:10). unless you are in Christ you are cursed. For it is written.
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


StrongAxe, we've been all through this. There was no "CURSE" put on Adam & Eve.

When a "CURSE" is stated, the word CURSE IS USED. No such WORD was used to or against Adam & Eve.

You call it what you want,with your extra biblical thoughts and I'll stay EXACTLY with what God's Word states.

He CURSED the Ground and CURSED the Serpent...PERIOD!

He didn't CURSE all the other animals, and believe me even a horse experiences pain in child birth.

So we can argue till the cows come home. But I'm DONE!

NO "CURSE" was put on Adam & Eve.....
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


StrongAxe, after you jumped in here, before Cluny, before MarkV, I just researched and realize this is an RCC doctrine. MarkV still has some of those RCC teachings.

However, not everyone here is RCC or comes from an RCC background.

My Jewish background states God did not CURSE Adam & Eve. And since I am not RCC, never was never will be, we will never agree.

I would go even deeper into this, but I'm not sure you would be open to listen anyway.


And Strongaxe, are you a woman? If not, the JOY of giving birth to a child far outweighs any birth pains, that are QUICKLY forgotten.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


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Furthermore, not even Jesus lifted those particular curses.
---StrongAxe on 5/14/12

Seems He did Strong Axe. ETERNAL LIFE !!! If you insist that death was a curse.

Disobedience brough on death which put man under the power of Satan. Hebrews 2.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham, who came from the line of SETH, not Cain.

Abraham was not cursed but blessed.

We can "choose" LIFE OR DEATH, Blessings OR Cursings even TODAY!.

The End!
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


kathr4453:

God DID curse Adam and Eve.

In Genesis 3:16, God cursed Eve to suffer pain in childbirth, and in 17-19, he cursed the ground for Adam's sake, saying he would toil, and eventually return to the ground.

To this day, women suffer in chidbirth, and man has to toil for his food, and turns to dust after death.

Furthermore, not even Jesus lifted those particular curses.
---StrongAxe on 5/14/12


15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Cluny, it bothers me more than it bothers you. A Mark it is. Where??? sorry, no forehead mentioned. Hand Forehead foot, ear, nose???Does that change the fact that Cain was cursed? NO..

But you teach cannibalism Cluny...clearly NOT in the bible.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/12


Ginger, MarkV doesn't realize the line of Cain was cursed. The line of Seth was not. Through the line of Seth came Jesus Christ, as we see Jesus Genealogy goes back through Seth. All of Cain's descendants died in the flood, Yet God spared Noah( THROUGH SETH'S LINE) and blessed him and his family for the purpose of keeping the promise of Genesis 3:15.

If God in fact cursed Adam & Eve, Cain Abel and Seth would be cursed too. I wonder how that would have affected the fact that Jesus was made flesh. He would also have inherited a curse as well.

A Curse is totally different. MarkV hopefully will realize that and admit he is wrong. I was wrong..((forehead)), and can admit it..SORRY, and thanks Cluny for pointing that out.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/12


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Kath, I am thinking that MarkV thinks that consequences for disobedience is the same as a curse.

I wonder if MarkV thinks about what God said for the angels to do to keep Adam and Eve from living forever?

By one man's disobedience..this is significant. sin is disobedience to God. death is the consequence.

Obedience to God through Christ is life..eternal life.
That is the consequence for obedience.
Yet he seems to think that none can obey or hear God without being born with the holy spirit in them FIRST.
If that is so, how was it Abraham, Noah, Abel were able to obey/hear? The Holy Spirit had not even been given yet.
---ginger on 5/14/12


\\God Cursed Cain AFTER Cain murderd his brother because his brothers offering was accepted and Cain's was not, and put a mark on his forehead.\\

Wrong, kathr.

Read Genesis 4:15. There's NOTHING there about God putting a mark on Cain's forehead.

Doesn't it bother you to say things that are not in the Bible?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/14/12


God Cursed Cain AFTER Cain murderd his brother because his brothers offering was accepted and Cain's was not, and put a mark on his forehead. And what a difference between that and God cursing the earth for Adam's sake.


After Cain killed his brother Abel, God declared to Cain, "Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth" (Genesis 4:11-12). Cain lamented, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence,

No such CURSE was put on Adam & Eve.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/12


If that's what you want to call it MarkV, but Galatians 3:13 was the CURSE associated with the Law of Moses, not Adam & Eve.

So please find an appropriate verse stating God "CURSED" man in the very beginning.

God didn't even curse all the other animals.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/12


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Kathr, the curse of death is very clear where it started. Without writing all the passages,
"For as by one man's disobedience (Adam's) many were made sinners, so also by One Man's obedience many will be made righteous. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, Grace abounded much more." (Rom. 5:19,20). Adam broke the law and all men were cursed with death. Second, while Jesus was on earth, He was still God. So you conclude that Jesus words were only for Jews, suggesting everything He said, has no meaning for Gentiles, only to you because you say you are a Jew.
It matters not who you are, Jew or Gentile, there is only one way into heaven, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---Mark_V. on 5/14/12


Galatians 3:14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Purpose? Holy Spirit= Living Word, Comforter and Guide.
John 14:16, :26
John 15:26
Luke 1:79 "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."
---Nana on 5/13/12


(Rom. 2:12) The law is written in their hearts.
---Mark_V. on 5/12/12

MarkV, The verse in Romans 2:12 is not the Law of Moses written in their hearts. It was/is the moral LAW showing man was given a conscience of right and wrong even before the Law of Moses.

Therefore we have from Adam to Moses the Moral law of Conscience, from Moses to Christ, the WRITTEN LAW given to Israel that had over 600 laws and ordinances they had to obey. THEY meaning Israel. There were with that WRITTEN LAW given to Israel blessings and cursings based upon THAT LAW alone Deut 28.

THAT is the curses WRITTEN in the BOOK, not the conscience, of which Galatians 3:10-14 is talking about.

YOU took Galatians 3:13 totally out of context.
---kathr4453 on 5/12/12



"Kathr, you guys are too much. You deny the existence of a curse on all mankind. How far will you guys go?
Don't you know that the breaking of the law of God brings a curse? Don't you know that Adam broke the law of God? Adam did not obey God's law, "And He said, "who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" ( Gen. 3:11). God would have given them life, as a blessing for obeying Him, and a curse they got for disobeying Him. Did you not read,
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree" (Gal. 3:13).
---Mark_V. on 5/11/12


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---God put the curse on mankind. My God. "He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His Hand"
Your god is not God.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12
MarkV, please provide scripture where GOD put a curse on man?

That's not what Hebrews 2 says at all. No one is going to hell because GOD put a CURSE on them.

Scripture please.

OH and please don't use OT scripture concerning Israel's blessings and curses.

Did God put a curse on Cain.

Let's start a the beginning...Can you PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt GOD put a curse on Cain? BEFORE Cain disobeyed!

Cain heard, Listened, TWICE even. But like a SELF WILLED Child DISOBEYED!
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


MarkV,
Do you realize that Jesus was talking to the Pharisee in these verses?
He was refering to the fact that they had hardened their hearts against him. They thought Jesus would come as a physical king to them, not a spiritual one.
And don't try to use where God hardened Pharoah's heart. This is different. God did not harden the Pharisees hearts. The Pharisees did it to themselves by the sin they practiced and thinking they were holy.
By the way, can we get the actual scripture passages where you got this from? You never provide those. It makes me think you are hiding or reading from something other than the word of God.
---ginger on 5/9/12


There is two kinds of children, Children of God, and children of wrath. Those under the curse cannot change their own hearts. They have no spiritual ears, eyes, or a heart to percevie.
They answered Jesus and said to Him, "Abraham is our father"
Jesus said to them "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me, "Why do you not understand My speech?" "because you are not able to listen to My word"
Jesus didn't say, they didn't want to hear,
"but that they were not able"
The ability to hear was not there. The Word of the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/12


MarkV, what exactly do you thing God did not give them a heart to hear and preceive?

What exactly do you think you see that no one else can see?

You see nothing. You don't even see Deut 29:29 which is the final conclusion of what God spoke to Israel in Deut 29. Again cherry picking out of context.

UNTO THIS DAY, THIS DAY if you read all of Deut 29 is the day God made a Covenant with Israel. VS 29

THAT DAY God told Israel that they were HIS PEOPLE , fulfilled His promise re LAND and the blessings and curses for obedience or disobedience.

It had NOTHING to do with having eyes to see and hear for personal salvation. What you are saying is NO ONE in Israel was saved EVER!
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


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4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day

Please do a word study on the word UNTO.

I know markv has a serious problem understand the English language.

Up until or UNTO that day, no one saw the land. The whole purpose of the wilderness journey between Egypt and the Land was walking by faith and NOT BY SIGHT.

NOW that day they saw it, and were charged to cross over and possess it.

AND unto that day, or until that day, God did not make a covenant concerning the Land, called the Palestinian Covenant.

Without that foundation MarkV, it useless to show you anything.

YOU REFUSE TO SEE!
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


That's the most perplexing thing about their doctrine. They honestly believe God would condemn someone for being UNABLE to obey rather than being able to obey but CHOOSING not to.

Thats like having two children (one of which has no legs) commanding both of them to follow you in the store and stay close behind you, then beating the legless child to death because he cant keep up.

What kind of "love" is that?
---CraigA on 5/7/12


Amen Kath, you did a great job there.

Those in the OT believed and did not have eyes to see nor ears to hear what the MYSTERY was.
They had faith and it was not given by God. Their faith came from seeing what God had done and hearing what God had done. They believed without having the spirit of Christ in them.

This is why I think the doctrine MarkV is trying to put out there is so strange.
Like with Cain and Abel. They both KNEW what God wanted from them. He told them. Cain CHOSE not to listen.
Abel CHOSE to listen.
God knew their hearts. He knew Abel wanted to obey and he knew Cain did not. But in no way did God make Cain disobey nor kill his brother, Abel. Cain chose that all on his own.
---ginger on 5/7/12


Craig, of course you did not see, now you claim you do. But it is the blind leading the blind.
(Deaut. 29:1-6) is pretty clear in the context what God wanted Moses to tell the people of Israel. This has nothing whatsoever about any "mysteries" it has to do with spiritual blindness, spiritual hearing, and a heart to perceive the Truth."
These people could physically hear, and see, Moses had just told them what they had physically seen. Why would Moses tell them
"Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to here, to this very day"? Both of you are blind also for you do not see the Truth either as they.
---Mark_V. on 5/7/12


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Nicely done Kathr. I didnt even see that myself. Hopefully now it will sink in .
---CraigA on 5/6/12


Moses Blesses Israel on the Plains of Moab
2-4 Moses called all Israel together and said, You've seen with your own eyes everything that God did in Egypt to Pharaoh and his servants, and to the land itself the massive trials to which you were eyewitnesses, the great signs and miracle-wonders. But God didn't give you an understanding heart or perceptive eyes or attentive ears until right now, this very day.


Here is another version of Deut 29:2-4.

MarkV, I believe you are WRONG and need to read the WHOLE and not cherry pick again verses.

Again the Mystery too was HIDDEN and Not revealed in the OT. Does that PROVE one is saved and another is not?

Absolutely not.
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


Deut 29: 29 CONCLUSION


New Living Translation

"The LORD our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.

King James Bible

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

No one was BLINDED here.

UNTO this day means UNTIL this day.

To say all Israel was purposely blinded is a LIE!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


If God had to give spiritual eyes and ears to hear and see, we do have Abel and Cain for an example that they both had eyes and ears to hear and see.

God did not give Abel any special ears and eyes to obey, and snicker behind the scene with the rest of the Trinity saying " OH look, poor Cain, He can't obey, even though I gave him a second chance, because I didn't give him special ears and eyes to obey". As they sat back and laughed their heads off.

So again, no scripture to prove our old man was re-birthed, and no scripture stating God GIVES special ears and eyes to only His favorites.

Just More false doctrine.

AND MarkV wants to accuse others of not giving scripture??????
NUTS TO THAT!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


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ginger, you proof the need for spiritual ears.
Here is what you said.

"I don't see where MarkV keeps coming up with needing spiritual ears to hear comes from. One can read the bible for themselves.". Many read it but God has not given them ears to hear Truth.

(Deut. 29:2-4)
""You have seen all that the lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharoah and to all his servants and to all his land..the great trails which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders.
"Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear," to this very day"

These people had ears and eyes but could not see spiritual truth.
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12


You don't believe that it's God who saves by grace through faith. ---Mark_V. on 5/4/12

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God,

???
---aka on 5/6/12


Craig..AMEN on that last post.

You too Kath.
That is what predestination is.

The purpose of the holy spirit is to convict the world of sin.

THe purpose of the bible, god's holy word is to tell us about Christ.

I don't see where MarkV keeps coming up with needing spiritual ears to hear comes from. One can read the bible for themselves.
MarkV forgets that the spirit of God was poured out on all flesh. No one was left out.

I will be the first to say I don't understand a lot of wht the Bible is telling me..yet.
But I do know from it that Christ died for my sins when I was a sinner.
He says he did not come for the righteous, he came for sinners.
---ginger on 5/5/12


John 20:31: "These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name."

So very nice CraigA! Thanks for bringing forth that concordance and correlation between John 20:31 and Romans 10:17!
---Nana on 5/4/12


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The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them? Just think, it is foolishness to you too. You don't believe that it's God who saves by grace through faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/12


Well since I do not find in any way the preaching of the cross FOOLISHNESS in any way shape or form, and seeing it is the power of God to USWARD, and since I believe and live Galatians 2:20-21, How can you accuse one of being blinded to that truth when I SEE IT AND YOU DON'T.

Mu old adam was crucified with Christ, not REBIRTHED!
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


The lost (natural man) is depraved from spiritual truth. He needs the Spirit to give him eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to perceive.---MarkV

That is the purpose of the written word of God! Which in all actuality was written by the Holy Ghost! Why?

John 20:31
These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
---CraigA on 5/4/12


\\Most people do not understand the doctrine of predestination.\\
---trey on 5/3/12

it's more important to understand what the bible teaches about predestination.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone being "chosen" or "elect" to be redeemed.

The primary passage is in Romans 8. Virtually the entire chapter, after verse 15, is speaking of SUFFERING.

8:17 says that we are joint-heirs with Christ "IF" we suffer with Him. Recipients of an inheritance.

Those who God foreknew as HEIRS, He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through SUFFERING (1Peter 2:21). The end is that those who suffer will be GLORIFIED, as Christ received glory (Hebrews 2:9-10)
---James_L on 5/4/12


The purpose of conviction is to show a person they are guilty! Who will not know they are guilty on judgment day?

There is a reason why God chooses to convict us in THIS world. Its so we realize our need to be ransomed and reborn by the Lord Jesus in THIS world before we meet Him in the judgment!
---Blogger9680 on 5/4/12


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Kathr, your a good example of someone with no spiritual ears to hear the Truth. You read it, talk about it, yet don't believe it. Does anyone stop you? No. you have freedom. Yet you reject the truth.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, "Nor can he know them," because they are spiritualy discerned"

The lost (natural man) is depraved from spiritual truth. He needs the Spirit to give him eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to perceive. Otherwise he is spiritualy depraved. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them? Just think, it is foolishness to you too. You don't believe that it's God who saves by grace through faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/12


trey, If God determined beforehand( predestined) those who put their faith in Christ will be conformed to His Image, hay, I have no problem with that at all.

O If God predetermined beforehand those who are members of Christ Body/The Church will actually be in a position HIGHER than the Angels in the New Creation and that's WHY we are being conformed to His Image. Again, I have NO PROBLEM with that.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


Trey,
Yes predestination is in the Bible. Most do not understand it.

So, I have to ask, what do most believe predestination is and what or who does it pertain to?
---ginger on 5/4/12


Most people do not understand the doctrine of predestination. The scriptures do not teach that a man's actions are predestinated. Predestination pertains to people not actions.
If you do not believe in predestination, what are you going to do with all the verses that discuss predestination? If you don't believe it does that change the fact that it's in the scriptures? If we choose to disregard predestination, what else should we disqualify: justification, glorification, the resurrection, the Love of God, the atoning work of Jesus Christ upon the cross?

Moving on, if it were not for the convicting Spirit of God, how would we know good from evil,if our actions grieved the Holy Spirit of God within us, God's law written in our hearts?
---trey on 5/3/12


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Thank you Nana.

Those who teach that WE have to be given something, whether having our supposed man spirit rebirth first, or given spiritual ears/eyes First, truly undermine the Power of God and the Power of His WORD. He already told us where the Power lies.

That is why man is repsonsible for what he knows and has heard and has either obeyed, or disobeyed.

Abel HEARD what was expected as did Cain. One obeyed, the other didn't.

No spiritual eyes or ears were necessary. Their parents told them what God expected.
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


Well said kathr4453, well said for sure!!!
---Nana on 5/3/12


The Spiritual Hearing is in itself the Word of God, that is LIVING, and POWERFUl and sharper than a two edge sword. THERE lies the POWER...HIS WORD. My WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE. Not our EARS!

A POWER so strong that it penetrates even the most depraved of sinners.

There is no verse that God has to GIVE YOU Spiritual ears and Eyes.

According to Revelation 3, Jesus said BUY OF ME suave for you eyes that you MAY SEE.

MarkV, why do you always use OT scriptures spoken to a NATION and apply it to individuals??


Even that verse says nothing about God giving anyone spiritual eyes/ears to see /ear.
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


Jonweskl, you said,

"
"If men are predestined to a particular fate, what is the purpose of conviction by the Holy Spirit ?""


The Spirits conviction is so that those who lost will see their own sin against a Holy God. God has to give you eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to perceive, otherwise you will always reject the Truth.
Remember Moses?
"You have seen all that the lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharoah and to all his servants and to all his land..the great trails which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders.
"Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day"

---Mark_V. on 5/3/12


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//---ginger on 5/2/12//


Blessing sis...
---char on 5/2/12


Amen Char!
understood 100%

MarkV,
Please tell me where that verse says we have to have spiritual hearing to hear the word of God?

I just don't see that.
Sinners who hear the word of God preached either believe or not. Repent or not. It is that simple.
There is nothing mysterious about the gospel at all.
When we get saved, and start to grow in Christ there are mysteries that are revealed depending on where we are in our growth process. Those require spiritual hearing.
But the Gospel itself is so simple that Jesus said even children will hear and understand.
---ginger on 5/2/12


//CraigA on 5/1/12//--Agreed--Amen.

Hearing comes by the Word of God:
Faith comes by Hearing---His Word----Not ours.

In Spirit He will Bear Witness only [His Word]--Spirit/Truth.
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Holy Spirit---God confirming His Word.
Father/Son:
Emmanuel-God with us.
Y'sha-God Savior
Is45:23 [I have Sworn By Myself,the Word is gone out of My Mouth in righteousness],and shall not return,That unto Me every knee shall bow,every tongue shall swear.
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Humbled Believers-Follow.
---char on 5/2/12


Here is a purpose, the santification of the Gentile converts as a living sacrifice:

Romans 15:16 "That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost."
V18 "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.."

Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
---Nana on 5/2/12


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"For faith comes by hearing, "and hearing by the word of God"
If you do not receive spiritual hearing by God, you will not receive faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12

Where does this verse say anything about spiritual hearing, MarkV?
No where!

The word of God is the Bible, the preaching of Christ.
People can certainly hear these things.
There is no spiritual meaning behind "Christ died for the sins of the world".
It is what it is.
Yet you ignore it.

Tell me, how was it the people of Neneva repent? God's spirit was not here with us yet. Jonah preaching the word of God is what did it.
---ginger on 5/2/12


If all men were literally drawn by God to Himself, they all would be saved---MarkV

Obviously not and since Jesus said He is doing that very thing, your logic if flawed somewhere.
---LindaH on 5/2/12


"If men are predestined to a particular fate, what is the purpose of conviction by the Holy Spirit ?"

Exactly. That's why the belief that we are predestined to a particular fate -- i.e. regardless of what we do, the fate that awaits us will not change -- does not conform to the bible's logic.

Consider the many admonitions, warnings, commandments of God, throughout time, to turn from our sins, to believe in Him and in those whom He sent, to walk according to His commandments. If our fate si already predestined, it would be useless for God to tell those things, because it would not change the fate that awaits us.
---jonweckl on 5/2/12


If all men were literally drawn by God to Himself, they all would be saved. He only draws those who are His. His elect. When God draws them to Himself, they are no longer separated from God. The lost are separated from God. They need a supernatural awakening by the Holy Spirit. When they are awaken from their spiritual death, "since they are not physically dead", they are given spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear, and are granted faith and repentance,
"For faith comes by hearing, "and hearing by the word of God"
If you do not receive spiritual hearing by God, you will not receive faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/12


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Jesus send us the Holy Spirit (John 16:7) TO:

testify of Jesus Christ (John 15:26)
convict the world of sin because they don't know Jesus (John 16:9)
teach us the ways righteousness (John 16:10)

No conviction no redemption--MarkV

And redemption is only found in Jesus Christ. If the Spirit convicts a man then He is leading that man to Jesus Christ. Just like Jesus said, He is drawing all men to himself, by the Holy Spirit.
---CraigA on 5/1/12


The purpose of the Holy Spirit is first to bring the elect to life together with Christ. They were chosen from the foundation of the world, by God. Since all who are born are descendants of Adam, including the elect, are born spiritually dead, the Spirit brings them to life, grants faith and repentance, indwells them, seals them, sanctifies them. The purpose of conviction is so they can see their sin against a Holy God. No conviction no redemption. All that are brought to life are convicted by the Spirit. All should give thanks to God, for without God we can do nothing. Zero.
---Mark_V. on 5/1/12


To open a mans eyes to his need to repent and place his trust in Jesus Christ

Men arent predestined to heaven or hell. If we were then it wouldnt matter what god we believe in.
---LindaH on 4/30/12


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