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Are We Justified By Our Works

In (James 2:24) and in (Romans 3:28), Paul and James seem to oppose each other. James says we are justified by our works, and Paul says we are not justified by our works. How can both teachings be the Truth?

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Grace is unmerited favor, and the believer is justified without any merit of his own - E.G. White, God's Amazing Grace, p.182
---jerry6593 on 5/10/12


Jerry
Jesus taught God favors those who keep the Lord's commandments.
(John 14:21)
He that has My commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves Me, and he that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him.


If you believe what Jesus taught is the Truth, wouldn't that make what E.G. White taught a Lie ?
---David on 5/11/12


Well JamesL no one is making fun of God here. You somehow have appointed yourself the EXPERT on James, and only your view is correct.

Those who are truly Born Again JamesL WILL endure, ARE over-comers and WILL bear fruit of some degree, even if it's 1%. ALL in Christ WILL win the prize, WILL be Glorified together with Christ and WILL reign and rule with Christ.

Christ will present TO HIMSELF a Glorious CHURCH not having spot or wrinkle.

Did you get that James...CHURCH, as in BODY of Christ.

You see yourself as an Individual, Christ sees the CHURCH as a WHOLE. These promises are to the WHOLE CHURCH ALL THE MEMBERS OF HIS BODY!

WHY, Because Jesus is "SURETY" of the Covenant.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/12


JamesL, here is a SURETY promise, that might be a smidge over your head.


2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/12


JamesL, now take that verse in 2 Timothy and ask yourself, Did Peter deny Jesus..3 times even...but Jesus WAS faithful and did not deny Peter. Peter had a laps of faith meaning if we believe not, He meaning Christ cannot deny Himself. Peter belonged to Christ.

SO deny in 2nd Timothy must have or mean to deny in some other way.

Peter DENY 533 Strongs

2nd Timothy DENY 720 strongs, same as deny in 2 Timothy 3:5 ( apostates, Titus 1:16, Apostates, JUDE 4 Deny WOW!

Get a strongs James, and LEARN.
---kathr4453 on 5/11/12


James, by "dead" I feel sure we are being told faith which is not followed by deeds is not a living, breathing, heart-felt faith. Just something philosophical, something in the mind, but not in the heart, not accompanied by action. Dead!

James 2:15,16 "If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" It is "useless" as James says vs.20.
---Warwick on 5/11/12




"..., then you MUST embrace the idea that e believer can go to hell.

Because ALL those warnings were written to believers, about believers"
---James_L on 5/11/12

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
There are believers whose abode is hell. Believers, about believers?

Romans 11:20 "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

Romans 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

Was it not to a 'Close' disciple Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan..."?
---Nana on 5/11/12


\\faith without actions is dead...if you don't put action behind it it's not really faith.\\
---Tim on 5/10/12

"dead" means "not really" ???


So a dead body is not really a body?

a dead electrical circuit is not really an electrical circuit?

a dead car battery is not really a battery?

dead skin from a sunburn is not really skin?

accoustically "dead" wood is not really wood?

if your car dies on the interstate, does it stop being a car?

Or, if your car comes to a "dead" stop, does that mean you really didn't stop?


There isn't ANY context in which dead means fake
---James_L on 5/10/12


\\Did Job choose his own sufferings so he could get a reward or prize?\\---kathr4453 on 5/10/12

That's just plain retarded, Kathr.

you foolishly make fun of God, because HE is the one who has given the great promises of future reward to help spur us on to the prize.

WHY does scripture teach us:
PRESS ON
DON'T SHRINK BACK
ENDURE
DON'T FALL AWAY
PERSEVERE

Because It Is A REALITY That Some WILL Shrink Back

If you want to protect your fallacy that only those who endure will go to heaven, then you MUST embrace the idea that e believer can go to hell.

Because ALL those warnings were written to believers, about believers
---James_L on 5/11/12


The point of James is in the last verse of chapter 2. "Indeed just as the body without the spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead." In other words, if you don't put action behind it it's not really faith.
---Tim on 5/10/12


The LOSS of all things is from the fact that we are crucified to this world and the world to us.

The pride of life, lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes ( of the things of THIS WORLD) is of the devil. Those who mind earthly things are enemies of the cross.


WE are crucified to the world and the world to us.

WE have been translated out of this present evil age.

ALL who are in Christ will suffer tribulation...PERIOD!

1 Thessalonians 3:3-5
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation, even as it came to pass, and ye know.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/12




I love how James CONCLUDES and Summarizes his letter.

He gives hope, in using Job for an example to us. Did Job choose his own sufferings so he could get a reward or prize? NO! JOB was FAITHFUL and endured to the end.


James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/12


Correct. The new creation is our spirit, which has been born again. All things HAVE BECOME new. That part is finished. Your spirit cannot be any more like Christ that it already is. JamesL//

WRONG james, The new Creature is NOT OUR old adam man spirit that has been reborn.

Now you sound like MarkV!!!

If it's our spirit that has been reborn, then it isn't
NEW.

You CANNOT put New Wine in old wineskins.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/12


Grace is unmerited favor, and the believer is justified without any merit of his own, without any claim to offer to God. He is justified through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, who stands in the courts of heaven as the sinners substitute and surety. But while he is justified because of the merit of Christ, he is not free to work unrighteousness. Faith works by love and purifies the soul. Faith buds and blossoms and bears a harvest of precious fruit. Where faith is, good works appear. - E.G. White, God's Amazing Grace, p.182
---jerry6593 on 5/10/12


\\The New Creature is not being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ?\\
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12

Correct. The new creation is our spirit, which has been born again. All things HAVE BECOME new. That part is finished. Your spirit cannot be any more like Christ that it already is.

What's being conformed to the image of Christ is our will.

Paul said in Philippians 3:8
I count all things to be loss "in view of" the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, "for Whom I have suffered the loss of all things"

and then in 3:15 "Let us, as many as are perfect, have this attitude"

Setting aside our own will, in favor of His will - that's suffering, according to scripture
---James_L on 5/9/12


\\Are you saying the PREDESTINED, and Joint Heirs BOTH suffer, but are in two different groups?\\
---kathr

No, Kathr. Predestined to become joint-heirs.

Hebrews chapters 1-2 say that Jesus BECAME God's heir by suffering, and inheriting a more excellent Name (SON, or HEIR of God)

Romans 8:17 says that IF we suffer with Christ, we will share HIS inheritance (joint-heirs).

Christ will judge our works (at the Bema, James 2:12), and only those who have suffered with Him will inherit the Kingdom with Him

God already knew His heirs. And those He knew already, He has "predestined" them to become "joint-heirs" of the Kingdom
---James_L on 5/9/12


Richard C writes an awful lot like Mark V
---James_L on 5/9/12


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So Jamesl, Are you saying the PREDESTINED, and Joint Heirs BOTH suffer, but are in two different groups?

Are you saying the Joint Heirs are not necessarily the Predestined, or vice versa?

Ist Peter 4:1 says those who SUFFER with him have ceased from SIN. Is this here another GROUP of sufferers?

And then those parallel 1st Peter 4:1 are those in Romans 6: AGAIN you say THESE are not being conformed to His Image OR Joint Heirs? These however are the NEW CREATURE created after WHO, Frankenstein?

So some are saved but not by GRACE?? is that it??? Some are new Creatures and some are not

The New Creature is not being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ?
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


James L, The very MOMENT you RECEIVE Jesus Christ into your life, YOU ARE RECEIVING to yourself HIS DEATH and resurrection life.

Phil 3:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings,being made conformable unto his death,

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: JAMES 1 but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul concluded in Phil 3 all else ARE ENEMIES OF THE CROSS.
YOU SAY just another class of saved???

NUTS TO THAT!
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


JamesL I don't know what kind of suffering you are talking about, but I DO KNOW the kind God talks about in scripture.

AND James was very instrumental in giving me strength and guidance through it.

SO I know from a very personal experience with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit USING James with other scripture. That truth led me far beyond any rewards we may receive.

There are only those who read about it, but can never put it all together, and those who have lived it and live to tell about it.

Either you KNOW it or you don't.


"KNOW" here, I mean...or rather do not mean head knowledge.

All who suffered in Hebrews 11 SUFFERED because they were SIMPLY SAVED.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/12


\\James is not about PRIZES but sanctification.\\
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12

Unless you can prove your point from scripture, it's just useless drivel.


\\Many walked away in John 6 too. ARE THEY SAVED? Not according to Jesus.\\

I agree. John 6:64-66 says why - "But There Are Some Of You Who Do Not Believe....AS A RESULT OF THIS, MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES WITHDREW"

And John 12:42-43 says "Even Many Of The Rulers BELIEVED IN HIM, but because of the Pharisees THEY WERE NOT CONFESSING HIM...For They Loved The Approval Of Men"


You ignorantly try to equate believing with following.

MANY followers did not believe in Him, and MANY believers did not follow Him.
---James_L on 5/8/12


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\\God PREDESTINED...those who place their faith in Him, will be conformed to His Image.\\
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12

W R O N G ! ! !

What the bible actually says is that those God FOREKNEW were predestined to be conformed to His image (Romans 8:29).

And those He predestined were set on a course of suffering in this life. He called them, justified them, and then after conforming them to the image of Christ through suffering, He bestowed GLORY on them. SAME AS Hebrews 2:9-10.

This is the glory that James and John sought in Mark 10:37. And Jesus said - Are you able to suffer? It is for those who have been chosen.

Romans 8:17 We are joint-heirs "IF" we suffer with Him
---James_L on 5/8/12


RichardC, Predestination is NOT Jesus believing FOR YOU anymore than Jesus walks for you.

The lame man had to by FAITH get up and walk on his own.

Those in the OT were told to LOOK UP at the serpent and if and when they did, God would heal their leprosy. God did not LOOK UP for them.

John 3:16 really begins with verse 14 and concluded with verse 17.

God PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world those who place their faith in Him, will be conformed to His Image.

The prosess of being conformed to His Image is what James is all about, as we count it all JOY when we are put into these testings KNOWING God's purpose is to make us perfect and entire lacking nothing.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


KATHR - No I'am not a calvinist, was raise RC - Just person that studies the Bible - I read through the Blogs , Sometimes put down a verse if a person is off, on what there saying, Or to see what they come back with, Or write a opinion that is out there to see what people come back with. Sometime I think there right, sometimes not - Now saying all of that, the word predestinated is in the Bible.
---RICHARDC on 5/8/12


The parable of the talents illustrates that God the Father wants us to engage in the secular world around us to use the abilities that He gave us to produce positive results in the world for his greater glory. You are the conduit through which Got takes action. Breakfast is being prepared do you want to follow Gods plan for the day or just be burnt toast that goes in the garbage.
---Blogger9211 on 5/8/12


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(John 1:17) For the law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.
Which of these two covenant's are we under?
The one which God gave to Moses?
Or the one given to Jesus Christ?

If you believe we are under the covenant of Christ, did Jesus teach Grace to be the "Unmerited" favor of God?
(John 14:21) He that has My commandments and keep them, he is the one that loves Me, and he that loves Me, shall be loved by My Father.
---David on 5/8/12


1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.


Well GEEWIZ JamesL, maybe just MAYBE you JamesL will be that ONE who wins the prize.

Go for it JamesL. Win that prize.


There is only ONE WINNER.

So tell us, what are you doing to try to WIN THE PRIZE?
Can you give some examples of your good works so we can all learn from you? Not that any of us have a chance to win the Prize.


JamesL, you have a problem with scripture. James is not about PRIZES but sanctification.

Many walked away in John 6 too. ARE THEY SAVED? Not according to Jesus. He compared them to Judas.

You really have missed the mark JamesL.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


The problem is that you have an extremely narrow view of "saved" (just like Calvinists and Arminians
---James_L on 5/7/12


Matthew 7:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Read it and WEEP JamesL! If you don't enter in at the NARROW GATE there is no prizes or inheritance at all.
---kathr4453 on 5/8/12


\\So is the conversation now FRUIT?\\
---kathr4453

Well, you're the one who is foolishly advocating your "fruit" doctrine.

\\And you say you can be saved and have NO FRUIT?\\
---kathr4453

You need to take that up with Christ Himself. He's the one who gave the parable of the sower, in which he said the second and third HEARD THE WORD, or RECEIVED THE WORD, yet fell away, or bore no fruit.

The problem is that you have an extremely narrow view of "saved" (just like Calvinists and Arminians).

But you're trying to mix the two together, which doesnt work.

The ONLY mediating position is to properly undestand our rewards and inheritance
---James_L on 5/7/12


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James where did you get the idea I believe Paul and James are not in harmony? And it is James who says "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead" 2:26. James also says that faith without deeds is useless vs 20.
---Warwick on 5/7/12


\\Hebrews 11...says nothing about Rewards EXCEPT that the LORD Himself IS OUR REWARD.\\
---kathr4453

Really ???

Hebrews 11:
8-10 By Faith Abraham...obeyed by going out to a place to which HE WAS TO RECEIVE for an INHERITANCE... FOR HE WAS LOOKING FOR THE CITY

24-26
By faith Moses...choosing rather to endure ill treatment......FOR HE WAS LOOKING TO THE REWARD

39
And ALL THESE...DID NOT RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED


\\some reward like a prize or something\\

12:1-2
Therefore...let us run with endurance...fixing our eyes on Jesus...WHO FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross

even Jesus was motivated by a future "glory" (heb 2:9).
---James_L on 5/7/12


JamesL, if you care to read Romans 7, it clearly states ( speaking to Jews) that you have to die to teh law to be married to another for the purpose of bringing forth FRUIT?

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


So is the conversation now FRUIT? And you say you can be saved and have NO FRUIT?
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


Earlier you were espousing an "inevitable fruit" dctrine, teaching an unbeliever to do an inventory of his works to see if he has enough to call himself saved.////


NO, I did NOT! GOD SAID:

Galatians 5:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


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So JamesL, you figure it out.

What does GOD SAY about salvation? WHY were you saved?

Then we have the issue of overcomers. Yes Revelation 2 state those who do not OVERCOME will see the second death.

Do overcomers bear fruit?

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


Its all faith only if you want works that are righteous. The only way to have good works is through faith. Faith is the producer of good works. Works does not produce faith.
Think about it.
---duane on 5/7/12


//---michael_e on 5/3/12//

Understood--Amen.



James presents instructions for all believers, however, addressed "to the twelve tribes" -- "which are scattered abroad"...

Jm 1:1
JAMES, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
---char on 5/7/12


Kathr,
I agree that James wrote to believers. Now you're backtracking.

Earlier you were espousing an "inevitable fruit" dctrine, teaching an unbeliever to do an inventory of his works to see if he has enough to call himself saved.

That, sister, is the "P" in Calvinism's TULIP.

Suppose a man has faith in Jesus, yet he has no works, will that man go to heaven or not?

Now I'm sure you're gonna try the same old Calvinist routine of "well if he has real faith..."

if that's your route, then give me a scripure that says PLAINLY that there is a differencce between real faith and fake faith.

Oh, and we don't work FOR rewards, but some will receive them
---James_L on 5/6/12


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What is the Law?
Isn't the Law something you must keep? And if you do not keep the Law, are you not subject to punishment?

Why does Paul call the New Covenant, "The Law of Christ"?
If you do not have to keep this covenant, why is it called the Law?

(2 Thessalonians 1:8)
In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would the Lord take vengeance against those who do not obey his gospels, if it is not a Law you must keep?
---David on 5/7/12


So Richardc, what you are saying is YOU BELIEVE the Gift was Faith, that is Jesus believing FOR YOU correct. So you are saying you were saved by the Gift of Faith Jesus gave you in believing for you. What exactly did Jesus believe FOR YOU?


Its really simple to resolve here richardc..I DON'T.
And believe it or not John 6 does not teach such a thing either. YOU still have to eat His flesh and drink His Blood...He's not going to do the eating and drinking FOR YOU!

Richardc, please clarify, are you a Calvinist, or are you something else?
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


JamesL, Hebrews 11, that great chapter on FAITH says nothing about Rewards EXCEPT that the LORD Himself IS OUR REWARD.

Your certainly not suggesting all those listed in Hebrews 11 did so because God was going to give them some reward like a prize or something

Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Isaiah 58:8
Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee, the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.
---kathr4453 on 5/7/12


Warwick,
Our faith and works must go together - but to what end? or WHY must they work together? What does it accomplish? That's where we disagree


\\those who say they have been saved by faith but have no (post salvation) "deeds' have no saving faith\\

Why do you think that's "obvious" ?

Why does he twice mention a believer's future judgment (2:12, 3:1)

what about other passages which say that we will be judged by our works? And where?

1Cor 3:10-15, 2Cor 5:10, etc

James is in harmony with Paul. If a BONA FIDE believer has only faith, and no works, he will not be "saved" from suffering loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

That's the context
---James_L on 5/6/12


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KATHR - Now you want him to Believe for you -

This has nothing to do with what I want- Now it does say in Galatains 2:16 - Justified by the Faith of Christ- Not works - Right ?

1 THESSALONIANS 1:3 Remember with out ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and and patience of hope in our LORD Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and the father, - also Refer - 2 Thessalalonian 1:11 -
( Faith is a work - and we can't be save by any of our works -Right ? )

EPHESIANS 2,8 For by grace are ye saved through faith , and not of yourselves, it is a gift of GOD.
---RICHARDC on 5/6/12


RICHARDC on 5/6/12


Richardc, Jesus did all the work, being born of a virgin, taking our sin upon Him, being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Dying in our place, and rising again for our justification.

Isn't that enough Richardc, now you want Him to believe FOR YOU?

Come on, you still have not proved that our initial salvation is Christ believing FOR YOU.

To live by the faith of Christ Gal 2:20-21 is to Live BY HIM, meaning our sanctification.

99% Inod the NT is talking to Christians who are already saved. Christ is our life.

Can you show where Abel or Cain lived by the faith of Christ? Where God believed for Abel but not for Cain? Faith is faith in both NT and OLD!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


James, in context Scripture says we cannot be justified by deeds but that our faith and deeds must work together. The other James says "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14. Also James says of Abraham (a man of faith see Hebrews 11:8-12) "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works." vs. 21,22

James obviously believes those who say they have been saved by faith but have no (post salvation) "deeds' have no saving faith. "Can that faith save him?"
---Warwick on 5/6/12


\\Faith without works is not true faith. True faith produces good works.\\
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12

totally wrong, Mark

Scripture teaches that one either has faith, or he doesn't. It's that simple. And according to scripture if you have faith in Christ, you are born again.

Stop adding unbiblical qualifiers to faith. Stop taking James 2:14 out of context

James 2, written to BELIEVERS

v12 We will be judged by the law of liberty (WHERE ??)

v14 Can faith without works "save" you (FROM WHAT JUDGMENT - WHERE ??)

3:1 Teachers will be judged stricter (STILL TALkING ABOUT A BELIEVER'S JUDGMENT - WHERE ??)
---James_L on 5/6/12


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Kathr, you are so full of water. You said, "Besides Calvinists don't believe in the fellowship of His sufferings. So calling this calvinism is way out in left field!"
you have no clue what you are talking about. Of course Calivinist believe in the fellowship of His suffering.

Linda, I agree with your last quote. Faith without works is not true faith. True faith produces good works. Only those with true faith produce good fruits, some a little and some more. It is the evidence of saving faith.
When we ask Christ to be our Lord and Savior it is because we have been given that faith to believe already by God. What would be the purpose of asking Christ to come into our hearts if we had no faith? So you are correct.
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12


KATHR 4453 - Get all in arms here , Far from it - sorry if it came across that way-

Did Jesus put Faith in God ? Let's see what we got here -

GALATIANS 2,16 - Knowing that a MAN is not justified by the works of the law, BUT BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even WE have BELIEVE in Jesus Christ, that we - MIGHT BE - JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

( How does Christ faith justify a man ? It would have to do with Christ doing all the work - How that can be ? you got me ) )
---RICHARDC on 5/6/12


JamesL, The book of James talking to those who are already saved. The WORKS of faith here are the works of our sanctification, not works for rewards. Sanctification is CHRIST IN YOU. "To be PERFECT and ENTIRE lacking nothing" James BEGINS chapter 1, is the end result of our sufferings is in Paul's Philipians 3...THE WHOLE CHAPTER OF PHIL 3. Paul here uses PERFECT as well as SUFFERING. AND The warning at the end of Phil 3 is not loss of rewards .

Besides Calvinists don't believe in the fellowship of His sufferings. So calling this calvinism is way out in left field!

PICK up your cross and follow me is not Calvinism!

Paul also says after you have suffered a while God will strengthen establish and settle you...
---kathr4453 on 5/6/12


Craig, if you will seek God with all your heart you will find Him. Only believers seek God with all their hearts, because their hearts have been change. Read the New Covenant. For we are told about the lost,

"for I have already charged that all men are under the power of sin, as it is written, None is righteous, no not one, no one understands, "no one seeks God." All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, no one does good, not even one"

God's word speaks against you again.
"..The hearts of men are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live.." (Eccl. 9:3)
God has to change the heart before you can seek God.
---Mark_V. on 5/6/12


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This is the answer:
We are not justified by our works under the Law of Moses.
But we are justified by our works Under the Law of Christ.


Paul was a teacher of the Law of Moses before he became a Apostle of Jesus Christ. He was the only New Testament writer who was effectively trained to teach the changes in the Law.
This is why Paul says in (Romans 2:5-10) we are justified by the Law , and in the very next chapter (Romans 3:28) he says we are not justified by the Law.

The Law of Christ is to "Love our neighbor", and we are justified by those works that show we love our neighbor. This was clearly written by both Paul (Romans 2:5-10) and James (James 2:8-26).
---David on 5/6/12


I would say that your works are proof that Jesus Christ is now living in you. So works come after faith in Christ. If you have no works, its a sign something is wrong. Jesus makes us "a peculiar people, zealous of good works".

Works are proof that your faith is real. That's how you show others your faith, by your works, just as James said.

Isn't this essentially what we do when we call upon Jesus? We are accepting his as Lord and Savior and asking him to take over our lives and give us a new heart. He does it if you are sincere.
---LindaH on 5/5/12


Many will never understand the Truth of God. Such a God cannot be found out by searching---MarkV

Mark, Gods word says that if we seek him with all of our heart that we WILL find him (Jer 29:13). It also says that if we seek him we must believe He is a rewarder of those who seek him (Heb 11:6. I dont know where you get your ideas from sometimes.
---CraigA on 5/5/12


\\James is stating very clearly if you say you have faith, yet have no sanctification.....then your original faith was all in your head and you have no real faith at all.\\
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


He wasn't stating that nonsense at all, much less "clearly"

How in the world do you find a context that leads to that?

You can't.

That is the "P" in Calvin's TULIP. a necessary, inevitable "fruit"

Also, can you demonstrate from scripture your heart/head faith concept? It's found nowhere, Kathr.

Mind and heart are the same thing. Dead faith is "saving" faith at the White Throne. But dead faith is "useless" at the BEMA
---James_L on 5/5/12


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Cluny, RICHARD wasn't quoting me but addressing me.

I agree Faith has to have an object. I asked Richard, Did Jesus put His faith in God? In you or Himself. Does God put faith in Himself?

Strange indeed.

Bit that question needs to be addressed to Richard and MarkV who now pats him on the back for here ANOTHER quote NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.

The list just gets longer and longer.
---kathr4453 on 5/5/12


It appears scripture says we are justified by His BLOOD, nothing about justified by His faith.

We are justified by His Blood and saved by His Life.

Cluny, to date, I've never understood your drive by shooting remarks?
---kathr4453 on 5/5/12


\\KATHR 4453 - That's the way I Got It right Now - That we are Justified by his Faith, not are Faith, Because are faith is a work,\\

That's interesting, kathr.

Faith has to have an object. It can't be something that simply exists in isolation. What/who was the object of the faith of Jesus?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/5/12


If you want to call faith a WORK, Don't worry, Jesus has no problem with that. Jesus said the WORKS OF ABRAHAM correct?

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


Since Jesus said it was OK, I feel so much better now!

Those who are Abraham's seed and HEIRS according to PROMISE do the WORKS OF ABRAHAM!

Now Go tell GOD how wrong He is! Or better yet, go tell markv, RIVCARD, Leej, christan and all those who have continially accused here!
---kathr4453 on 5/5/12


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So RICHARD, don't get all up in arms here. No one said the WORKS OF MOSES. Nor did Jesus.

But the fact is faith is not a WORK in the sense of the works of teh Law. James never teaches a works salvation either and neither did Jesus.

However the use of works, or works of Abraham is clear that the responsibility is with man. If that were not so, Jesus would be dealing in DUPLICITY when rebuking the Pharisees.

Now tell me, is God a two faced lair? A doulbe talking double dealing liar? Careful now!
---kathr4453 on 5/5/12


Richard, worth repeating,
Many will never understand the Truth of God. Such a God cannot be found out by searching. The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known. Nor is God known by the intellect. "God is Spirit" and therefore can only be known spiritually. But fallen man is not spiritual, he is carnal. He is dead to all that is spiritual. Unless he is born again, supernaturally brought from death unto life, miraculously translated out of darkness into the light, he cannot see the things of God.
No amount of free will, can move them from darkness into the light. God has to do that miraculous work. The 'free willers" say they have that power, but, Without God they can do nothing.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/12


KATHR 4453 - That's the way I Got It right Now - That we are Justified by his Faith, not are Faith, Because are faith is a work,

KATHR you wrote on 5/4/22 - You Receive Jesus- Now If a person says I Receive Christ or I accept Jesus - But in fact when a person this, in fact is- trying to do the work of getting themselves save? I RECEIVE - I ACCEPT _ It is Christ that first Draws a person First - right - Just would like to hear your opinion on this.
---RICHARDC on 5/5/12


JamesL, You see James as a rewards chapter. Yet, James is stating very clearly if you say you have faith, yet have no sanctification ..that is the works of Christ in us, through obedience of faith( also necessary after salvation) then your original faith was all in your head and you have no real faith at all.

Our TESTING that conforms us to the image of Jesus Christ is somethign EVERY CHRISTIAN will go through. We don't plan out our own suffering. The very MOMENT you receive Jesus Christ, that DEATH BLOW at the Cross goes into effect.

Those who Christ has Justified HE HAS ALSO GLORIFIED. So those who suffer with Him will also be glorified together with Him.

NO such thing as an unglorified Christian who is IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


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CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

Both were speaking of "escaping negative judgment"

Paul was speaking of unbelievers escaping the judgment of the Great White Throne, by faith WITHOUT WORKS (Romans 4:5)

James was speaking of believers escaping negative judgment at the Judgment Seat Of Christ, by faith PLUS WORKS. He says in 2:12 that WE (believers) will be judged by the law of liberty. In 3:1 he is still speaking of this judgment, saying that teachers will be judged stricter (1Cor 3:10-15, 2Cor 5:10)
---James_L on 5/4/12


works through the power of the flesh and works through the power of the Spirit are diametrically opposite.

do not toil to understand works. if you let it be, it will work itself out.
---aka on 5/4/12


As Kathryn wisely said, In (Romans 3:28) Paul is writing about the Old Covenant Law of Moses, the Law which came through Moses.

In (James 2) James is writing about the New Covenant Law of Christ, the Law of Grace which came through Christ.
(John 1:17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

This is also why both men not only seem to contridict each other, but themselves in their own writings.
Paul in (Romans 2:13) and James in (James 4:2) as Francis wisely pointed out.

(Hebrews 7:11-12) says when the Priesthood is changed, The Law must also be changed.
---David on 5/4/12


"How can both teachings be the Truth?"
James was referring to the works of faith, or the empowered implementation of our professed confidence in the Father, and His Word, though words and actions that correspond to that profession.
Paul was referring to the works of the Law, the carnal efforts, traditions and rituals that had nothing to do with faith.
---joseph on 5/4/12


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ROMANS 3:28 - Justified by Faith - The Faith here is not our Faith - But by The faith Of Jesus Christ. By his faith a man justified, Refer to GALATIANS 2:16 -Without deeds - ( Christ has done the work )
---RICHARDC on 5/3/12

By the Faith of Christ, Richard can you explain. Are you saying Jesus lives BY FAITH in us? Explain that? God has to have faith in God? Faith is in someone more powerful than you. Are you suggesting Jesus is not God?

And Galatians is talking about SANCTIFICATION in 2:16-21, NOT Justification. Galatians is talking to those already saved.

If it were justification, then are you saying Jesus is justifying Himself in us?



---kathr4453 on 5/4/12


Justification is a legal term. It is to be pronounced or declared to be just or righteous.
Court Room #1:
Rom5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Paul states that before God we are justified by the blood of Christ.
Court Room #2
Rom5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Paul here is stating that we feel God's justification by faith (which is a fruit of the Spirit of God).
Court Room #3:
James2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
We cannot see if the blood was shed for Abraham. We cannot feel Abraham's faith, but we can see Abraham's works.
---trey on 5/3/12


Who is speaking, to whom are they speaking, what is the context?
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES(ISRAEL) which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Rom11:13 For I(Paul) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye(Jew and Gentile) are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
---michael_e on 5/3/12


ROMANS 3:28 - Justified by Faith - The Faith here is not our Faith - But by The faith Of Jesus Christ. By his faith a man justified, Refer to GALATIANS 2:16 -Without deeds - ( Christ has done the work )

JAMES 2:24 - Work a man is Justified - (To get this You need to keep reading down
JAMES 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so Faith without works is dead.--- A believer wants to obey Gods law - One command is to Love GOD - Refer - DEUTERONOMY 6:5 - How do we love God ? -
JOHN 14:15 - If you love me ,keep my commandment, ( So the Love of God is a Love of works - These works does not save a person, there just good works we do )
---RICHARDC on 5/3/12


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Our works are the result of what GOD has done in us. So we do the right thing because we love GOD. Not to be saved but because we are saved.
---Samuel on 5/3/12


kathr4453 is correct. It's works of faith.

Consider Jesus' answer when he was asked what works should we do (John 6:29). Jesus replied "believe on him whom he hath sent".
---Haz27 on 5/3/12


Both are true and these verses do not contradict one another.

When Paul uses WORKS, he exclusively is talking about works of the LAW.

Jesus Himself said " The Works of Abraham, yet Abraham was never under the Law of Moses.

What then is the works of Abraham Jesus was talking about. I believe James uses this same wording as WORKS OF FAITH. If you see all of James examples of WORKS, none are the Law, but rather the works of Faith. Or Obedience of FAith, as Paul says in Romans 16:25-27
---kathr4453 on 5/3/12


We as fallen human being have no righteousness of our own. All our righteous comes from christ.

whether it is imputred righteousness:: God crediting to us the perfect sinless life of Jesus for our sinfilled life, or imparted righteousness: christ in us enabling us to do good works, all righteousness comes from God
---francis on 5/3/12


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Righteousness by faith is the imputing and imparting of the results of Christ sinless life and atoning death. It includes both justification and sanctification.

He imputes, or credits, to us the merits of His sinless experience to deliver us from the PENALTY of sin. This is justification.

Imputed righteousness, the perfect life of Jesus is given to us by faith. It covers all our sin, our inability to obey and to do good works.




To deliver us from the power of sin, He does not merely reckon us as righteous, but He actually imparts the strength to OVERCOME sin.

Imparted righteousness, righteousness by Faith is Gods righteosness given to us to enable us to do good works, even to obey his laws
---francis on 5/3/12


IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness



James 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and not by FAITH only
---francis on 5/3/12


Lets us honestly compare these two set of verses. On the surface do they not contradict each other?

James 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)
---francis on 5/3/12


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