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Really Know Who God Is

Finally I know who God really is! Sermon yesterday told me the TRUE nature of God. When we stray from the path following Him, he does not angrily wheel around and kick us to the curb, he turns lovingly toward us to help us up and readjust. My new name for him forever is Daddy God.

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 ---Geraldine on 5/7/12
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"You lie about my Gesenius' comment. I said that as a Jew he wouldn't accept meanings of words or verses that Christians view as pointing to Jesus." Marc


When and where did you say this? If you can't provide the post with the date we would have to ask...who's lying?

Take your time.
---cott on 5/30/12


"Citations about Theodotian, Symmachus, and Aquilla being Gnostic occultists...no supporting evidence...plagiarised error." Marc

Epiphanius of Salamis-

"But according to his [Aquila's] former habit, while yet thinking the things of the heathen, he had been thoroughly trained in vain astronomy, so that also after he became a Christian he never departed from this fault of his, but every day he made calculations on the horoscope of his birth. He was reproved by the teachers...But instead of standing rebuked, he became bold in disputation and tried to establish things that have no existence, tales about fate..."

Epiphanius of Salamis, Weights and Measures (1935) pp.11-83. English translation
---scott on 5/30/12


Sure Warwick is frothing at the mouth.

Trinitarians negate the meaning 'Alpha and Omega' if as Warwick says on 5/25/12 he 'died and rose again'. God Almighty- the eternal God who cannot die, which is what Alpha and Omega means. Yet Warwick and trinitarianism believe the Alpha and Omega "died"... really! Nowhere in scripture is Jesus described as 'El Shaddai' (Almighty God), only Jehovah is. Only via trinitarian misinterpretation and false teaching is Jesus called Almighty God and creator.

Revelation 22:12,13 say nothing about Jesus being 'pierced' or dying and being raised. As already seen with Warwick's corruption of Luke 13:34, trinitarians will twist these and many other scriptures to push their pagan identities.
---David8318 on 5/29/12


David, wrong again!Trinitarians believe in 1 God while JW's have a major God and minor gods, similar to the Hellenistic assemblage of gods.

In Isaiah 9:6 the Messiah is the Mighty God but in 10:21 Jehovah is the Mighty God. Jehovah/Messaiah therefore must be one and the same God. Your reasoning makes Jehovah likewise 'a god.'

Isaiah 43:3 and Luke 1:47 The Lord God is 'Saviour.' However in Titus 2:13 Jesus is '..great God and Saviour.' Also John 4:42.

In Genesis 1:1 and Isaiah 40:28 God is the 'Creator', however In Colossians 1:16, John 1:3 Jesus is Creator.

Unless you allow for 2 Creators, 2 Mighty Gods, and 2 Saviours you must accept this means there is one God-God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
---Warwick on 5/25/12


"You lie about my Gesenius' comment. I said that as a Jew he wouldn't accept meanings of words or verses that Christians view as pointing to Jesus. Don't misrepresent me." Marc

"Gesenius was a Rationalist and Jewish, naturally it's not Jesus." Marc 2/15/12
---scott on 5/25/12




David, read Revelation 22:12,13 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Here Jesus says it three ways, just in case we are slow in understanding. The Alpha and the Omega is shown as the one who is coming, He who was pierced, who died and rose again. It is only Jesus who fits this description. He is the Alpha and the Omega, therefore God.
---Warwick on 5/25/12


'Within Scripture, ...the Messiah is also El-Shaddai!'- Warwick.

No he's not Warwick! That is your assumption based not on scripture, but on your false Hellenic trinitarian mythologies. You cannot show any scripture to show the Messiah is titled 'El Shaddai'. You assume the Messiah is El Shaddai purely because antichrist trinitarianism dictate you must.

You assume this to be true to support the Neo-Platonic view, the pagan Greek mythology of the 'logos' being at one with the supreme deity- if you don't of course you will be booted out of your fundamentalist trinitarian outfit.

Scripture simply does not assign the Messiah (Jesus Christ) the title 'El Shaddai' and for good reasons- he is not the Alpha and Omega.
---David8318 on 5/25/12


'you didn't follow the pattern'- Marc.

Yes I did. I didn't say anything about Jesus. You're changing your premise by saying- 'Jesus being God'. If Jesus is God then your initial argument: 'Jesus has the nature/form of YHWH' is non-sensical... "of course Jesus has the nature/form of YHWH... He is God".

'Marc's conclusion to this in his bizarre formulae is that the son IS the Father!- No, David, your argument is unsound'

But you do believe 'the son IS the Father' Marc- that's your premise. '4. Jesus has the nature/form of YHWH. If you have the nature and form of someone, you are that person'- (Marc 5/21/12).

Marc you've tied yourself in knots and shown that you simply do not know what you are talking about.
---David8318 on 5/25/12


'Jesus is Creator, (all humans are His children)'- Warwick.

This is trinitarian psycho-babble, thankfully unsupported by scripture. As usual, Warwick is assuming what is to be regarded as truth based on his indoctrination into the heathen trinity, not on scripture.

Jesus does not have 'children' or 'sons' in the same way that Jehovah as the Alpha and Omega does (Rev 21:6,7). As I've already shown, Warwick must twist what Luke 13:34 says in his ridiculous attempt to show Jesus has 'children'.

I do not doubt Jesus is our redeemer. However the Alpha and Omega has 'sons', something which Jesus does not, a point of fact that Warwick struggles with.
---David8318 on 5/25/12


Scott,

Mollenkott was not a translator but a modern English style consultant. And you know that. Nice try. I suppose you'd reject the printer because he was an atheist.


The only citations about Theodotian, Symmachus, and Aquilla being Gnostic occultists were from 200 sites, all saying word-for-word exactly the same thing, and all JW sites. There is no supporting evidence to back up this cut-and-paste, plagiarised error. Care to do some work and explain your claim? Even Wikipedia doesn't mention this.

You lie about my Gesenius' comment. I said that as a Jew he wouldn't accept meanings of words or verses that Christians view as pointing to Jesus. Don't misrepresent me.
---Marc on 5/25/12




"Dangerous quotes" Marc

Marc also casually dismissed citations from Wilhelm Gesenius (The 'Father of Hebrew/English Lexicography) because he was...wait for it...Jewish.

So there you go.
---scott on 5/24/12


Scott, as usual your quotes do not stand up to inspection.

I researched H-J Becker 1979. "And the word was a god." He does not agree with your story. He continues "Through this Mediator (Logos) all things came to be. In contrast to Genesis 1:1, the creation comes into existence not directly from God, but from the Logos.... There is no past creation of the Logos. The totality of Creation is his work" (Ibid). Becker says the Logos (Christ) is not a creature (as you claim) but the Creator. In Genesis 1:1 God is Creator while in John ch.1 and of course Colossians 1:16 the Creator is none other than Jesus Christ the Logos. They are therefore one and the same God. Becker does not support your case at all!
---Warwick on 5/24/12


Scott, Seigfried Schultz wrote "ein Gott (oder: Gott von Art) war das Wort"-"von Art" is idiomatic German for "by nature" or "in essence" therefore equal to God. Luther used "Gott von Art" of Jesus in his hymn, "Nun komm der Heiden Heiland"

In his wording Schultz is not calling the Word 'a god' as the literal English translation may suggest, but plainly distinguishing Him from the Father. He emphasizes His "divine essence" is that of ho theos, therfore equal in nature to God. "and the Word was God by nature."

Schultz does not support you, the opposite.

Again you are in trouble because of literal translation from one language to another.
---Warwick on 5/24/12


Scott,

We're all still waiting for the official explanation about how God the Father becomes God the....Grandfather. Or have God's only approved organisation on earth changed their minds?

Care to take a stab at it in the absence of any offical prevarication from HQ in Brooklyn?
---Marc on 5/25/12


"Young's own translation reads, ''And the Word was God.'' Marc

Yes, but his Concise Critical Commentary (more lit. 'and a God (i.e., a Divine Being) shows that he recognized the significance and implications of the missing definite article of John 1:1c. (See Rolf Furuli's "The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation".

"Thompson claimed to be directed by "some being"..." Marc

The NIV used Dr. Virginia Mollenkott as a consultant throughout its creation. Yet her book, Sensuous Spirituality, tells of her spirit guide and contact with her dead mother.

Origen's OT, the Hexapla makes use of texts by Theodotian, Symmachus, and Aquilla. All three were Gnostic occultists.
---scott on 5/25/12


1. ''And the Word was God'' more lit. 'and a God (i.e., a Divine Being) was the Word,' i.e. he's existing and recognized as such'' (Young, Concise Critical Comments the Holy Bible).
It's significant Young capitalizes ''God'' and ''Divine Being"'' in his commentary.
Young's own translation reads, ''And the Word was God.''
2. J.S. Thompson claimed to be directed by "some being" who entered his room at night and directed him: ''in all your writings, be careful to represent Jesus as only the instrument of God in all he does'' (American Quarterly Review, 1830, Vol. 8, pages 227-245). Like Greber, the Watchtower again gets support from someone communing with demons.
Warning: Scott's quotes are dangerous for spiritual health.
---Marc on 5/24/12


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"Any more high quality quotes?" Marc (1)

"And the word was a god"
Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

"And the word was (a) god"
The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)

"And the word was a god"
Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)

"And the word was a god"
The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958)

"And the word was a god"
The Monotessaron, or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

"And the word was a god"
Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975)
---scott on 5/24/12


Scott,

A tendentious culling of Horner's work.

''We may first note that, unlike English, the indefinite article is used in Sahidic with abstract nouns and nouns of substance.''(Walters, CC, An Elementary Coptic Grammar of the Sahidic Dialect, p. 12). An example of this usage may be found in John 1:16, which Horner translates: Because out of fulness we all of us took [a] life and [a] grace in place of [a] grace.

In the Sahidic version of John 1:18b, the anarthrous theos in the Greek is translated with the definite article. Horner's translation reads as follows: "God, the only Son."

Scott, the Watchtower cant have it both ways.
---Marc on 5/24/12


Scott,

Re Heinfetter's translation, he believed that God (when referring to the Almighty) is ''certainly'' preceded by the article. However see John 1:18.

Furthermore, he translated the same verse as ''No one hath perceived truth yet.'' Where does that come from? How scholarly! Any more high quality quotes from your Felix the cat bag, Scott?

Warning: always check Scott's sources.
---Marc on 5/24/12


Scott, you give testimony to the efforts the WTS goes to find someone, anyone, who appears to agree with their specious ideas. You, following their dictates, pluck things out of context.

In Isaiah 9:6 the Messiah is the Mighty God while in 10:21 Jehovah is the Mighty God. As both Jehovah and the Messaiah are the Mighty God they are one and the same. Therefore your reasoning makes Jehovah likewise but a god.

Isaiah 43:3 The Lord God is 'Saviour.' Also Luke 1:47. However in Titus 2:13 Jesus is '..great God and Saviour.' Also John 4:42.

Isaiah 40:28 God is the 'Creator', however In Colossians 1:16, and John 1:3 Jesus is Creator.

Therefore in your 'reasoning' the Saviour, and the Creator are only a god!
---Warwick on 5/24/12


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John 1:1- Rob

"And the Word was a god"
NT of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from Greek by Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D.), 1694.

"And the Word was a god"
NT in an Improved Version, 1808.

"The Word was a God"
NT In Greek and English, Abner Kneeland, 1822.

"As a god the Command was"
A Literal Translation Of The NT, Herman Heinfetter, 1863.

"And a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word
Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible, Robert Young, c. 1885.

"And (a) God was the word
The Coptic Version of the New Testament, George William Horner, 1911.

Etc., etc.
---scott on 5/23/12


Galations 1:6-9 ...removed...to another gospel..pervert the gospel...preach another gospel...accursed...
2Co 11:3-4 ...beguiled..corrupted...another Jesus...Spirit...gospel...not accepted...
Isa 45:6 ...none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:21 ...[there is] no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour, [there is] none beside me.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD...and my glory will I not give to another...
Isa 48:11 ...I will not give my glory unto another.
John 17:5 ...O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand...
Jw's say 'a god' is beside Jehovah sharing His glory.
---micha9344 on 5/23/12


David, I believe in the trinity, so fire away! I read in the scriptures where Christ stated:
John14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
I believe one is on shaky ground when they try to seperate God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are three and they are one.
1John5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
They are of the same will, mind, and purpose.
---trey on 5/22/12


Warwick, you are correct concerning David.

In John 1:1, it reads "IN THE BEGINING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD".

In the Jehovah Witness Bible, they have changed this to read "THE WORD WAS A GOD".

Why, because the Jehovah Witness reject CHRIST and who CHRIST truly is.
---Rob on 5/22/12


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David that is weak, even for you. Jesus is Creator, (all humans are His children), Redeemer, the Mighty God and the Alpha and the Omega, He is also the Son of God. As to His flesh He was made "like His brothers in every way" Hebrews 2:17. Of course other humans are His brothers but you would have us believe that stops Him being Creator, Redeemer etc-doesn't follow.

Consider Obama: president, husband and father. Does one preclude the other?

In Isaiah 9:6 "The Mighty God is applied to the Messiah and He is called God elsewhere e.g. John 1:1, 20:28, Romans 9:5, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8 and I John 5:20. There are 3 in the Godhead and we do not confuse them. In avoiding the obvious the WTS has 2 separate Gods.
---Warwick on 5/22/12


David, as you admit, the Messiah is called "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6. However in Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is also called "Mighty God." To those who accept the Trinity of the Godhead (three in one) this is quite simple, both are God. But in Watchtower reasoning this must mean there are two separate Mighty Gods! All you need is a third one and you have the heathen trinity of three separate Gods!

But thinking logically, within Scripture, as Jesus the Messiah is Mighty God, and Jehovah is likewise Mighty God then the Messiah is also El-Shaddai!
---Warwick on 5/22/12


David: ''A son has the nature/form of his Father.''

Nice try. However, you didn't follow the pattern.
Jesus being God is like drawing the connection of Marc to man. Jesus to the Father is like any specific human person being compared/contrasted to any other. It's first-year philosophy on particulars Vs universals.

David: ''but Marc's conclusion to this in his bizarre formulae is that the son IS the Father!''

No, David, your argument is unsound because your premiss is false. Jesus, as the Scriptures tell us, has the form of GOD. That is why Thomas said to Jesus ''The LORD of me and THE GOD of me.'' And Jesus did not rebuke him but accepted the title. Fancy that!
---Marc on 5/22/12


Scott: ''clearly God was not Father before creation.''

To the Watchtower, YHWH BECAME something he wasn't before i.e. gained Fatherhood. I guess then and only then was YHWH able to love because before YHWH created there was no object for YHWH's love. Being in love with nothing (i.e. before archangel Michael aka Jesus existed) makes zero sense. Despite YHWH BEING love (1 John) YHWH couldnt be loving anyone because there was no other being.

As is elsewhere, the Watchtower theology is self-contradictory and a morass of illogic.

And, Scott, tell us about the official line on how Father YHWH becomes Grandfather YHWH. How does that go?
---Marc on 5/22/12


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Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called, I [am] he, I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts, I [am] the first, and I [am] the last, and beside me [there is] no God.
Rev 2:8b ...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive
John 20:27b ...be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
---micha9344 on 5/22/12


"No idea what I'm talking about!" Marc (1)

Agreed.

The term father occurs some 1,750 times in the Scriptures, in singular, plural and possessive forms. Primarily it is used to refer to literal fathers, male ancestors, the older men of ones people, etc.

Early on Jehovah was spoken of as the Father of his people. (Deut. 32:6, ASV, Ps. 89:26, Isa. 63:16, 64:8).

Abraham is called the father of all those having faith. (Rom. 4:11) At Genesis 4:21 Jubal is called the father or founder of musicians. (RS) And Jesus termed Satan the father of the lie. John 8:44.

Respectfully Elisha called Elijah my father. The apostle Paul said he was a father in a spiritual sense to others. 1 Cor. 4:15.

Continued
---Scott on 5/22/12


'Jesus has the nature/form of YHWH.'- Marc.

Let's add a fifth point to Marc's list.

5. A son has the nature/form of his Father.

Which is true, but Marc's conclusion to this in his bizarre formulae is that the son IS the Father! Marc's farcical reasoning is because the son has the nature/form of his Father, the son must be the Father!

An oak has the nature/form of a sycamore. Yet they are two different and distinct types of tree. Does sharing nature/form make the two 'one and the same'? It does in Marc's world.

Honestly Marc... listen to yourself. Your reasoning is laughable 1st grade rubbish distilled through antichrist trinit'arian paganism.
---David8318 on 5/22/12


"No idea what I'm talking about!" Marc (2)

Continued-

Whether literally or spiritually, all of the biblical references to Father(s) have something in common- a paternal (real or figurative) or authoritative relationship with others.

With the simple meaning of the word Father in mind- clearly God was not Father before creation. And you are wrong to suggest that JWs believe such a thing. They dont.

By contrast, while the title Father is applied to God some 15 times in the Hebrew scriptures (245 NT?) His personal name Jehovah (YHWH) appears almost 7,000 times in His inspired word.

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father...and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV
---Scott on 5/22/12


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'As God we are Jesus' children'- Warwick.

Oh... so Warwick is calling Jesus a liar! According to Warwick Jesus was wrong to call his disciples 'brothers'- Matt.12:50, 25:40.

Even the scripture Warwick cites- Luke 13:34, doesn't prove Jesus refers to his followers as his children. Jesus refers to children of 'Jerusalem', not his! Evidence Warwick wishes only to twist and distort the scriptures to suit his man-made trinity abomination.

No where does Jesus refer to his disciples as his children. Only as his 'brothers'. Jesus thus is not the Alpha and the Omega.

As for Is.9:6, the Messiah (Jesus) is never referred to as 'El Shaddai', which separates him from his Father Jehovah, who alone is called 'El Shaddai'- Gen.17:1.
---David8318 on 5/22/12


David,

Listen!

1. That house has the nature of a tree????

2. That shoe has the nature of a fly?????

3. That car has the nature of a newspaper??????

4. Jesus has the nature/form of YHWH.

If you have the nature and form of someone, you are that person. The first three don't make sense because they are incommensurate, chalk and cheese. By Jesus' essential being he is YHWH. That is why Jeremiah called him YHWH, why Thomas called him ''The God of me''.

Stop filtering the texts through your Johnny-come-lately theology.
---Marc on 5/21/12


David, as God we are Jesus' children-Luke 13:34, Isaiah 8:18. Relevantly Isaiah 9:6 shows Jesus is the Mighty God, the exact same title given to Jehovah-10:26. Two Mighty Gods?

As man we are His brothers-. Hebrews 2:17. This is His human body He refers to in Hebrews 10:5 "...a body have you prepared for me," Jesus Creator of everything ever created Colossians 1:16. Who "being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" Philippians 2:8.

What a mystery,the Mighty God, Creator of everything, humbled Himself, taking a human body to die that all who believe in Him would not perish but have eternal life-John 3:16!
---Warwick on 5/21/12


'As God the Son he did not have to, but as you quoted he did in the scriptures you mention! How can his brothers be equal to Jesus?'- Ruben.

What!? We're not talking about 'God the Son' Ruben. The issue is whether Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. In Revelation 21 the conquering Christians are referred to as 'sons' of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega- Rev.21:6,7. Jesus never said he has sons, but rather 'brothers'- Mt.12:50, 25:40.

Jesus is a brother of the sons of the Alpha and the Omega. Thus the Alpha and the Omega is rightfully Jesus' Father- Jehovah God. Jesus is the 'Son of God', and correctly refers to his disciples, the Christian 'overcomers' (Rev.21:6,7 NIV) as his brothers, not his sons.
---David8318 on 5/21/12


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Trey, you ask regarding Philippians 2:6. Can I suggest you try looking outside the 'trinity' box. You appear to only consider your trinitarian translations on this verse.

'who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God.' The New Testament, by G.R.Noyes.

'He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God.' Today's English Version.

'Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.' The New Jerusalem Bible.

'who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to greedily make his own.' La Bibbia Concordata.
---David8318 on 5/21/12


'How can bothe Jesus and Jehovah be the one thing?'- Warwick.

They're not, it's only you who is saying they are. Only Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega. As I've shown, Jesus is a brother of the Christian 'overcomers' (Re.21:6,7 NIV) described as 'sons' of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega.

So what you're saying Warwick is that Jesus was lying when he referred to his disciples as his 'brothers'- Mt.12:50, 25:40. Jesus as the 'Alpha and the Omega' should have referred to them as his 'sons' to conform to what is stated at Rev.21:6,7.

Or did Jesus take time out being the Alpha and Omega when he was on earth? Or just maybe Jesus was not, is not 'the Alpha and the Omega'.
---David8318 on 5/21/12


Scott, in reality the NIV Study Bible has a footnote explaining 'origins' as 'goings out' as most translations have it, in the main text. Relevantly it has a footnote connected to 'from ancient times' saying 'Or from eternity, again as most translations have it.

You have ignored Habakuk 1:12 (NIV) where the Hebrew 'qedem' is applied to Jehovah showing He is eternal. In Micah 5:2 (NIV) 'qedem' is applied to The Messiah, showing He, likewise is, eternal.

Quite often these are terms with an accepted meaning just as in Daniel 9:7,13 Jehovah is called "the ancient of days" when He is not ancient but eternal existing outside of time, having no 'days' at all! Applying your reasoning Jehovah is not eternal at all.
---Warwick on 5/20/12


Scott,

Play innocent, that you have no idea what I'm talking about!

Look, it's the LOGICAL IMPLICATION of what JWs believe. If YHWH is always Father and if Michael aka Jesus was the first created being, how can YHWH be Father to someone who had not yet existed?

Fatherhood is not just an empty title but has to have content. You can't be Father to nobody.

Even your belief that YHWH becomes a grandfather has a content and context i.e. Jesus becoming the Father.

Care to take a stab at something that you may not believe but still is the logical implication of your heretical, Johnny-come-lately theology?
---Marc on 5/20/12


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Scott, Micah 5:2 Barnes Notes on the Bible "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting - Literally, "from the days of eternity." "Going forth" is opposed to "going forth," a "going forth" out of Bethlehem, to a "going forth from eternity," a "going forth," which then was still to come, (the prophet says, "shall go forth,") to a "going forth" which had been long ago (Rup.), "not from the world but from the beginning, not in the days of time, but "from the days of eternity." For "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1-2
---Warwick on 5/21/12


Micah 5:2-

Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets-
(Lutheran, Theodore Laetsch):

"The word [olam] tells that the Ruler would issue from Bethlehem...the context, however, clearly defines this going forth as the bringing forth by she which travaileth (v.3), as the birth of a human child by a human mother...

...Scripture speaks of another birth of this Child, born at Bethlehem...God Himself, speaking to His Anointed, the Messiah, tells Him Ps. 2:7 [You are my son, today I have become your father.] Wisdom the Son of God speaks of His birth before all times (Pro. 8:22-31)...It is to this birth in the timeless eons of eternity that Micah refers here." pp. 271-2.
---scott on 5/20/12


"Care to take a stab?" Marc

At what? Before you started channeling Yoda (5/10/12 "Was Jesus a real man?") you falsely accused Witnesses of believing (5/6/12):

"For eternity, minus 6,000 years, God WAS NOT Father..."

So let me see if I have this straight...you want me to argue against something that I (we) don't believe to begin with?

'Your homework do you should.'
---scott on 5/20/12


Micah 5:2 (Mowtsaah)- The NIV Study Bible-

(Footnote) : "origins...from of old. His beginnings were much earlier than his human birth."

Gesenius, "origin, springing"

Alexander Harkavy Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary: "going forth, hence: origin descent... "

Brown, Driver and Briggs: "Going forth / Origin"

Lexicon In Veteris Testamenti Libros- Wm. B. Eerdmans: "origin"


Jesus said:

"As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me." ESV


---scott on 5/20/12


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Scott,

I really don't know why it's hard to explain the JW Father-God concept. It's all here:

''The second Adam, however, has become a life-giving spirit. In this capacity he can fulfill Isaiah's prophecy and become the 'Eternal Father'...In such a way the heavenly Father of Jesus Christ will become the heavenly Grandfather of the restored human family.'' (WBTS, 1986, p. 169)

Scott, do you begin the Lord's Prayer like this: 'Our Grandfather, hallowed be thy name...'?
---Marc on 5/20/12


Scott, seeing you use the NIV I will also do so.

My references show 'mowtsaah' means 'goings' as in goings out/forth, not origins. I note ESV, NASB,KJV,ASV,Douay, Darby, Webster and Youngs etc render it this way. I see no case that'mowtsaah' (when applied to the Messiah, the Mighty God) should be interpreted to infer He has an origin.

Relevantly the NIV uses the same word 'qedem' in Micah 5:2 to refer to Christ and in Hakakuk 1:12 of Jehovah "My Lord are you not from everlasting" (eternal). Both called eternal!

Daniel 7:9,13 undermines your case calling eternal Jehovah "the ancient of days." What, Jehovah is only ancient, His life measured in days! How can He therefore be eternal?
---Warwick on 5/19/12


Scott,

I continually marvel at your ability to tendentiously select quotes from your Felix the cat hat and then Procrusteanly fit these to your JW THEOLOGY.

Clearly Micah 5:2 is poetry. Micah was emphasising for Jews before Jesus incarnated that his ''origins'' (not always literal!) or his ''comings and goings'' (i.e. movements) are from eternity. The root word also is applied to YHWH e.g. Ezekiel 10:18 (''YHWH's glory LEFT the Temple''), Judges 5:4 (''YHWH, when you went out from Seir'') and, unfortunately for you, Micah 1:3 (''YHWH is coming out of his place'').

BTW, met a JW yesterday. Couldn't answer my question about the illogic of God always being a father before anything/anyone else existed. Care to take a stab?
---Marc on 5/19/12


"Answer my question..." warwick

I'm happy to respond to any and all reasonable questions but since I posted my comments first (in response to Mark_V) regarding Micah 5:2 and "Mowtsaah" (origin) I will await your scholarly and enlightened comments on this meaningful Hebrew word first.

According to Micah 5:2 did the Messiah have an "origin" or not?

And oh yes...do take your time.
---scott on 5/19/12


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MarkV, I have no Idea who arius is/was, but I told you what I believe. SO STOP telling me what I believe.

I believe EXACTLY AS SCRIPTURE SAYS.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Where on earth does THIS SAY Jesus was a created Spirit?

Jesus was NOT CREATED.

Are you really all there MarkV, or is it just your way of slandering me and making up lies?

Liars do not inherit the Kingdom of God...remember that before you post lies again.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/12


I really don't know what it is about MarkV HATING John 1. Everytime I post this he goes off the deep end trying to make accusations that this means Jesus was created and not God.

How unclear is John 1 to you MarkV.

Maybe your Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture.

I posted Isaia, ALSO JOHN, Before Abraham was I AM, I AM being again God's name in the OT....when Moses asked God, "Who shoud I say sent me". GOD SAID, TELL THEM "I AM" SENT YOU!

GOD spoke to Moses...God gave Moses the 10 Commandments. The GREAT I AM did that, not I AM Junior!

Oh, Did you read Genesis 8:21???
---kathr4453 on 5/19/12


Scott, stop your evasion and answer my question: who is the ancient of days? See Daniel 7:9,13.

My reference says the word at the end of Micah 5:2 is 'qedem' which when applied to the coming Messiah (who is the "Mighty God" as is Jehovah) means eternal, as most translations render it. You always endeavour to rip Scriptures about God the Son out of context.

Your Watchtower indoctrination does not allow you to take Scripture as written. If you disagree with your masters you will be disfellowshiped. You are akin to a staffer on an election booth. You have no ability to state anything other than the party line.
---Warwick on 5/18/12


Micah 5:2...again.

"...whose origins ("Mowtsa'ah") are from of old..." NIV, RSV

Young's:
"His comings forth are of old, from the days of antiquity."

NAB:
"Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times."

The Hebrew root word "yatsa", of which "motsaah" is the feminine plural, is the same word used in Gen 15:4 where Abraham is promised "A son coming from (yatsah) your own body will be your heir."

See also 2 Sam 7:12 where David is promised, "I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from (yatsah) your own body, and I will establish his kingdom."
---scott on 5/18/12


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Scott, who is the ancient of days? See Daniel 7:9,13.

Micah 5:2 "....From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity"-'qedem' is, (in the context of who it is applied to) properly translated as eternal/eternity. Isaiah 9:6 says of the coming Messiah "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, And the government will rest on His shoulders, And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Is the Mighty God, a created being? Remember also Jehovah is called "Mighty God" in 10:26.

Are there 2 Mighty Gods? No as Jehovah says there is only 1-Isaiah 44:6,8, 45:5.
---Warwick on 5/18/12


Micah 5:2

"...whose origins are from of old..." NIV, RSV

Hebrew= "Mowtsa'ah", Strong's- "Origin, springing"


Webster "ORIGIN":

"Ancestry, parentage...rise, beginning...from a source...the point at which something begins or rises..."

"From everlasting..." Hebrew "Olam"

Olam can mean "everlasting, eternal" but it can also mean: (Gesenius) "Hidden time..the beginning...which is uncertain...not defined...time long past..."etc.

While "Olam" doesn't define when (20 billion years ago?) clearly the Son of God had a "Mowtsa'ah", an origin.

And origin simply means beginning.
---scott on 5/18/12


Kathr, Jesus Christ said of Himself?,
1. "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). His listeners understood that Christ was claiming to be eternal and thereby was asserting Himself to be God.
2. "I am the Light of the world" (John 8:12). The Jews took up stones to stone Him, which was the prescribe penalty for blasphemy.
3. "Whose goings forth have been from Old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2). O. T. evidence for the eternity of Jesus Christ is spoken of as the child to be born in Bethlehem.

What you teach is the same thing Arius taught, that Jesus preexisted but held that Christ was the first of created spirits, he did not believe that Jesus Christ was eternal.
---Mark_V. on 5/18/12


Scott,

Before I had my son, 4 years ago, according to the Watchtower illogic, I was a father even then. If God the Father can be a father before he brought his firstborn son into existence, i.e. Michael the archangel aka later known as Jesus, then I too can be categorised as a father before I had my son.

Scott, you refuse to debate this issue of your theology, preferring instead to believe you've answered it by telling me to go ask a door-knocking JW. That's just not honest.
---Marc on 5/18/12


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David,

You refuse to argue from the scriptures but choose to defend your Johnny-come-lately organisation. Jesus declares he is ''coming quickly...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.'' (Rev 22:12,13).

As Isaiah also declares, ''Thus says YHWH...''I am the First and I am the Last. Besides me there is no God.'' (44:6)

Watchtower or Scripture? Hard choice.
---Marc on 5/17/12


David,
Please explain what the Apostle Paul meant when he wrote:
Php2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
It is my belief that the Apostle Paul knew Christ better than you!!!
---trey on 5/17/12


IN THE BEGINNING was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD.

So MkV, how is it you find that the WORD is not eternal?

Revelation ( The END) also declare, and His NAME is called THE WORD OF GOD...

Do you not believe the WORD who is Christ is not eternal?

All things were made by Him and for Him.

The worlds were made BY the WORD of God.

In The BEGINNING God Created the Heaven and Earth.

In the End the New Heaven and earth and the NEW Creation and New Creatures in the New Creation are all IN CHRIST.

Why do you not believe the WORD is not the Beginning and End, who is eternal?

Mark V is the one who does not believe Jesus Christ IS GOD Incarnate.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/12


David, what you have written does not agree with Scripture says. As I showed Revelation describes Jesus as the Alpha and the Omega (not an Alpha and an Omega), as is Jehovah God. How can bothe Jesus and Jehovah be the one thing? Only by being the one and only God. Both are also called the Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, and the God. That two of each of these exist is nonsense. The plain answer is that they are one.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" This clearly says Jesus does consider we are His children.
---Warwick on 5/17/12


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Why did Jesus Christ not refer to his disciples as his 'sons'? He would have done if he were the Alpha and the Omega. But he doesn't, because he is not their Father- Matt.12:50, 25:40.

So rather than being equal with the Alpha and the Omega whom we all agree is the Almighty God, Jesus is in fact as testified by himself equal with his 'brothers', who are themselves 'sons' of the Alpha and the Omega- Rev.21:6,7.

The fact remains that when the title 'the First and Last' is twice applied to Jesus (Rev.1:17,18 and 2:8),

David,

As God the Son he did not have to, but as you quoted he did in the scriptures you mention! How can his brothers be equal to Jesus?
---Ruben on 5/17/12


David, like others, you question the Divinity of Christ, by making a case against Jesus Christ by attacking His human nature. It's save to say, no attack on the doctrine of the Trinity can be made without attacking the Person of Christ. And no attack on the Person of Christ can be made without attacking the doctrine of the Trinity, as they stand and fall together. It is this reason that current liberalism is usually Unitarian, that is, denies the three Persons of the Godhead, or is modalistic, that is, affirming simply that the Persons are modes of existence of one Person and not actual entities. You, as they, provide passages where Jesus, in His humanity talks with the Father. You try to separate the Person of Christ from His Divine nature.
---Mark_V. on 5/17/12


Why did Jesus Christ not refer to his disciples as his 'sons'? He would have done if he were the Alpha and the Omega. But he doesn't, because he is not their Father- Jesus is not 'the Alpha and the Omega'. Jesus described his relationship with his followers and his disciples as his 'brothers'- Matt.12:50, 25:40.

So rather than being equal with the Alpha and the Omega whom we all agree is the Almighty God, Jesus is in fact as testified by himself equal with his 'brothers', who are themselves 'sons' of the Alpha and the Omega- Rev.21:6,7.

The fact remains that when the title 'the First and Last' is twice applied to Jesus (Rev.1:17,18 and 2:8), it is always with reference to his death and resurrection- not because he is God.
---David8318 on 5/17/12


We must remember Revelation 1:1 states, 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him...' which shows the Revelation was given by God through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking through angelic representatives at times is Jehovah God himself, and other times it is Jesus Christ. Re.1:1 also shows that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are not one and the same.

Revelation 21:6,7 indicates that Christians who are conquerors ('overcomers' NIV) are to be 'sons' of the one known as the Alpha and Omega. That is never said of the relationship of Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his 'brothers'. (Heb.2:11, Matt.12:50, 25:40) But those 'brothers' of Jesus are referred to as "sons of God." (Gal.3:26, 4:6)
---David8318 on 5/17/12


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Kathr, the gospel is veiled to you, since your Jesus is not eternal.

" And if our Gospel is veiled it is veiled to them that perish: in whom the god of this world (by which he means the Devil) hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them" (2 Cor. 4:3,4).
For we are told that Christ was,
"Foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" ( 1 Peter 1:20). Paul speaks of the "eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord," (Ephn 3:11), The writer of Hebrews refers to the "blood of an eternal covenant" (13:20).
---Mark_V. on 5/17/12


MarkV, I have no Idea what you are talking about. The verses i put in Isaiah state He is GOD, nothing about saying He was teh Eternal son.

Again John 1 verifies that the WORD was/ Is God, not the Eternal Son.


There was no fully God fully "MAN" in the OT who's name was Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/12


Kathr, I do not know how you can argue one point in Scripture and then speak for that point you argued against. You had already told me that Jesus did not become Jesus until He was born, I told you He was eternal Son of God. That He had no beginning. You argue forever that He did. Now you say,

"Jesus as the alpha and omega is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament."

Do you see now why I try to correct you? But no, you want to argue Jesus had a beginning. How can you argue to just argue against something and turn around and support what you argued about? You know why? Because the Truth is the Truth, and you cannot escape the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 5/16/12


A careful reading of Revelation - david

so, let's start our careful reading from the alpha of Rev...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,...

let's go to the omega...

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
---aka on 5/15/12


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David, Revelation 1:7,8 it is Jesus who is coming with the clouds (Luke 21:27), it is Jesus whose side was pierced (John 19:34) and His hands and His feet on the cross. Verse 17,18 this is Jesus the First and the Last, He who died upon the cross and rose again bodily. Revelation 22:12,13 again it is Jesus who is coming "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Here He tells us the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ALL apply to Him. They all mean the same thing that He is the all in all. These titles are also applied to Jehovah God meaning only one thing, they are one and the same God.
---Warwick on 5/15/12


---"Alpha and the Omega" refer's to the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. An alphabet is an ingenious way to store and communicate knowledge. The 26 letters in the English alphabet arrange in almost endless combinations can hold and convey all knowledge. Christ is the supreme, sovereign alphabet, there is none outside His knowledge, so as there no unknown factors that can sabotage His Second Coming (v.7). His Almighty God occures 8 times in Revelation, underscoring that God's power is supreme over all the cataclysmic events it records (4:8: 11:17: 15:3: 16: 7,14: 19:15: 21:22).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


MarkV, where did you copy and paste this from?
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


This may explain more clearly WHO GOD IS.

As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

Jesus as the alpha and omega is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus nature as part of the triune God in several places. I the Lord, the first, and with the last (41:4). I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). I am he, I am the first, I also am the last (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.
---kathr4453 on 5/15/12


David, You changed the Alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 1:8. 22:13 to mean something completely different then the context shows. "Alpha and the Omega" refer's to the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. An alphabet is an ingenious way to store and communicate knowledge. The 26 letters in the English alphabet arrange in almost endless combinations can hold and convey all knowledge. Christ is the supreme, sovereign alphabet, there is none outside His knowledge, so as there no unknown factors that can sabotage His Second Coming (v.7). His Almighty God occures 8 times in Revelation, underscoring that God's power is supreme over all the cataclysmic events it records (4:8: 11:17: 15:3: 16: 7,14: 19:15: 21:22).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/12


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Know who God is? I am asked 'How many 'First and Last's are there? How many 'Alpha and Omega's are there?'- Marc.

A careful reading of Revelation show these titles refer to Jehovah God- Rev.1:8 and 22:13.

When Jesus refers to himself as 'the First and the Last' it is always with regard to his death & resurrection. Jesus said-

'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One, I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.' (NIV)

God is eternal and cannot die. Jesus however was the 'first' to be resurrected to immortal life, and the 'last' to have been personally by Jehovah God. Everyone else will be resurrected 'through Jesus'- Ro.5:21,Jo.11:25.
---David8318 on 5/14/12


sweet. "If my children will return to me I will bless them and heal their land." many verses of the OT. Though the readjustment hurts he is always there.
---Scott1 on 5/8/12


Geraldine. The title "Father" for God is written in both the old and the New Testaments. As far as straying away from God, if the strayer does not repent back to the Lord but instead continues down the path of destruction away from the Lord, then the end of that strayer will perish in their sins eternally separated from God. That is why he says, Look not to the right hand nor to the left, but have singleness of heart, looking straight on Jesus up to the end. When Peter was walking towards the Lord on top of the sea, when his eyes strayed from Jesus and he began to look at the surroundings and at what he was doing, he began to sink and to perish, and so Jesus had to save him from drowning and perishing because of losing his faith.
---Eloy on 5/8/12


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