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Born Of Water And Spirit

Please explain what you believe Christ was teaching when he stated that "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 3:5)

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 ---trey on 5/15/12
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Ruben, the Church of Christ consist of believers only. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. The Church of Christ (those who are saved) were given two ordinances and only two. Baptism and the Lord's supper. These to be perpetual and memorial. Only the saved are members of the Church (Acts 2:47). These saved ones and they only, to be immersed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). And only those thus received and baptized, to partake of the Lord's Supper, and the supper to be celebrated only by the Church in Church capacity. The inspired Scriptures, and they only, in fact, the New T. and that only, to be the rule and guide of faith and life, not only for the Church as an organization, but for each individual member.
---Mark_V. on 6/9/12


Heb 10:22 " Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.//

Here again it's the Blood of Christ that purges the Conscience..and the Washing is the washing of theWATER OF THE WORD, being the only thing that is PURE.

If it just said water??? but says PURE WATER. Even a Priest blessing any water does not make it PURE Ruben.

There is no doctrine on HOLY WATER in Scripture.

Peter, John etc, did not carry around Holy Water in Acts to Baptize anyone with either.

Out of Jesus side flowed both Blood and Water.

And the Water, Blood and Spirit are ONE! 1st John 5:8
---kathr4453 on 6/9/12


"but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst, the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to Eternal Life." (John 4:14

"Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three agree." 1 John 5:5-8

----I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To his that is athirst I will give from the fountain of the water of life freely." Rev 21:6
---kathr4453 on 6/9/12


Sorry Ruben, Corneluis received the Holy Spirit first and then was baptized.

That why Calvin believed himself to be regenerated at his infant baptism.

Baptism does not save anyone or regenerate anyone.

Ruben, you did not quote all of Peter either. I see where you left out the part, NOT the washing away of the sins of the flesh, of sin, but a good conscience towards God BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

Peter is clearly teaching that it's not John's Baptism, but a Spiritual one.
---kathr4453 on 6/8/12


Ruben, I will not debate with anyone whom refuses to accept the plain scripture, and instead supplants it with their own catechismic teachings.
---Eloy on 6/7/12

Fine but lets look at Acts 8:30-39:

God send Philip to explain scripture to the Enuch "And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?v 31, notice Philip did not say ask the HS and he will guide you. we need a interpreter who has authorithy and Philip is one (Acts 6:5-7) Second eunch knew after being explain that he needed to be baptize in water and Immediately after the baptism is when the Spirit comes.
---Ruben on 6/8/12




You must have some cross reference that water Baptism=a birth of some sort.

Can you find 2 or 3 passages to back up what you believe John 3 says.
---kathr4453 on 6/7/12

Yes:

Other 3:5/Jhn 3:5

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( Acts 2:38)

1 Peter 3:20-21 "eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US.... but the answer of a good conscience toward God,"

Heb 10:22 " Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Romans 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27, Acts 8:30-39, ! Cor 12: 12-13, EZE 36:25-27 and much more.
---Ruben on 6/8/12


He, God poured that washing on us. It was not by our works, our ability to walk to a place and have a priest pour water on us. It is the work of God not ours. So simple Ruben.
---Mark_V. on 6/8/12

Mark,

It is the work of God but God ordain men to do his job!



"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"(MT 28:19-20)
---Ruben on 6/8/12


Ruben, you gave (Titus 3:5) first and didn't get what the passages was teaching
(Titus 3:5) Paul reminds the believers to be gentle, kind, ready for good works showing all humility to all men. And remember they also were once like them, lost but
"When the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured on us abundantly through Jesus Christ or Savior"

He, God poured that washing on us. It was not by our works, our ability to walk to a place and have a priest pour water on us. It is the work of God not ours. So simple Ruben.
---Mark_V. on 6/8/12


Ruben, We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Jesus explained it perfectly when He said, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God anyway.

we also have in Ephesians, "the Water of the Word."

And Peter or maybe it's James who said we are Born again of the WORD of God.

Jesus said my word is Spirit and life. John never said his water baptism was equated to being Born of anything.

You must have some cross reference that water Baptism=a birth of some sort.

Can you find 2 or 3 passages to back up what you believe John 3 says.
---kathr4453 on 6/7/12


kathr4453* you are in need of a another birth
Ruben///

Sorry I'm too old. However I am going to have another grandbaby.

As far as being Born Again, Oh yes, that was over 30 years ago. But I was born of the spirit FIRST, and then I was baptized, but not because I felt I needed to be to be saved. Yet if you take Jesus words as you say you think it means then water comes First and then the Spirit. My baptism identified me with His death and resurrection life, as a testimony as to what already took place 3 weeks prior to my water baptism.

The man who died next to Jesus was not water baptized. If it was an absolute, believe me, God would have opened the heavens and dumped a bucket of water on him.
---kathr4453 on 6/7/12




ginger, you said,

God loves his creation so much that he will allow them to do what they want with their lives. He gives them a choice because he loves them."

If He loved them He would not give them that choice, and He doesn't. You see, if God allowed everyone to do as they wanted? No one would be saved. It is God who restrains evil. If He didn't we would all murder each other. God gave free choice to Adam and Eve and just look what happened? Would God give again something He knows (He is Omniscient) will fail? How far He is willing to let us go is in His control. We have freedom but God has Ultimate freedom.
---Mark_V. on 6/7/12


Ruben, I will not debate with anyone whom refuses to accept the plain scripture, and instead supplants it with their own catechismic teachings.
---Eloy on 6/7/12


Woops, My water just broke, so I will be out for a few days giving birth

Praying for you! And congratulations! I had no idea! :D
---CraigA on 6/7/12


kathr4453* you are in need of a another birth

No he did not, Otherwise all he had to have said was ' Born of the spirit'. Jesus did not say 'No one can enter the kingdom of God without being "FIRST" born of water and "THEN" being born again of spirit! He is talkng about water baptism, Titus 3:5 and Acts 2:38.

[God] saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit . (Titus 3:5)

And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit . (Acts 2:38)
---Ruben on 6/7/12


Woops, My water just broke, so I will be out for a few days giving birth.

Something else also interesting. When God created the heavens and earth, does it appear even the earth was covered in water...that God had to separate the sea from the ground to make the ground visible.

Why would Jesus explain, that which is born of the flesh is flesh if He was teaching John's Water Baptism?

Being baptized into Christ Romans 6 has no water, and we are baptized into His death, not water.

If He were teaching water Baptism, he would have used Noah and the flood as a reference. He didn't.

Jesus wasn't teaching water baptism at all. Jesus never even mentions baptism here in John 3.
---kathr4453 on 6/7/12


No, it was Nicodemus who insinuated that He was already born, "... can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Already born)
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

In the washing of regeneration is that we play a part. God gives the Spirit, should we not rather be concerned with what is ours to give?
Furthermore, it is our duty (Romans 12:1), and God gives forgiveness and the Spirit - to whom?
Matt 3:8
Acts 26:20
Isaiah 1:16,17

I am saying no more.
---Nana on 6/7/12


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Jesus explains very clearly what He meant by the two " That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Born of water is that born of the flesh.

THEN Jesus explains the difference, telling Nicodemus you have already had a physical birth, you are in need of a another birth Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Literally from the Spirit above to enter the kingdom. You must be born again that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The new birth from above is a second birth which gives us eternal life
---kathr4453 on 6/7/12


You need to keep Scripture in it's context .
---Eloy on 6/5/12


Let's look at the surrounding context which you have ignore:

After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized" (JHn 3:2)

"although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."(JHn 4:2)

And not mention Jesus own baptism "Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water , he saw heaven being torn open and the spirit descending on him like a dove"

Romans 6:4buried in baptism, raised to walk in a NEW LIFE
---Ruben on 6/6/12


Eloy* Ruben, You cannot change the word of God. Jesus meant exactly what he said, and he also explained his words so that Nicodemus could understand.

If Jesus was talking about physical birth(water), then you would had said 'No one can enter the kingdom of God without being FIRST born of water' or told Nicodemus since you are already born of water then all you need is to born of the Spirit but he didn't, WHY?
---Ruben on 6/6/12


Ruben, You cannot change the word of God. Jesus meant exactly what he said, and he also explained his words so that Nicodemus could understand. He did not instruct Nicodemus for water baptism, else he would have clearly said this to him, but he did not. You need to keep Scripture in it's context and not re-attach a different meaning to what was scripted. If you want to know about baptism, you read scriptures specifically written about baptism, and if you want to know about heavenly birth as Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus, then you read scriptures about the New Birth. This is well-known contextual criticism, to keep the scripture in its context of use.
---Eloy on 6/5/12


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Eloy* but being born, first in the flesh, and then born-again from his Spirit.

Then Jesus should had said No one can enter the kingdom of God without being FIRST born of water and then being born again of spirit.We must see the context before and after the conversation. Jesus is batized with guess what 'Water and Spirit' and the word anothen is use on both Jhn 1:33-Jhn 3:3,5, then Jesus tells Nicodemas to be born again with what 'Water and Spirit' at the same time that happen to Jesus in Jhn 1:33. Right after that scripture tells us that Jesus and the Apostles went baptizing V 22, Do you seriously think that the Apostle John just happened to place of being born of water and spirit with the surrounding context just a mere coincidence?
---Ruben on 6/5/12


Eloy* When they heard, they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus.

Same words Peter use in Acts 2:38 "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and
ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Again water and Spirit! In fact in Acts 22:16 Paul himself had to be baptized to be saved " Arise, and be baptized, and
wash away thy sins , calling on the name of the Lord.


Eloy* And when Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." Acts 19:3-6.

Where in Jhn 3:5 does Jesus say to be born again involves laying of the hands? Paul is refering to the sacrament of confirmation!
---Ruben on 6/5/12


Nana, You are doing what is commonly called misapplication and miscontexting. No water baptism is spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus in John chapter 3, none, but the birth from the Holy Spirit. "John indeed baptized with water, but you all will be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Act.11:16. "They said to Paul, We were baptized to John's baptism. Then said Paul, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard, they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." Acts 19:3-6.
---Eloy on 6/5/12


"Let's look at both John 3: 5 and Titus 3:5

John 3: 5 " Born of water
Titus 3:5 "Washing of regeneration"

John 3:5 " and Spirit"
Titus 3:5 " and renewing of the Holy Spirit"
---Ruben on 6/4/12

Absolutely agree and that cross-reference works perfectly well with 1 Peter 3:21.
Also Isaiah 1:16_20 where the true cleanliness of the water is revealed in regeneration, "put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil, Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."
John the Baptist ran the same bell, "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:".
---Nana on 6/5/12


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Ruben, "Amniotic fluid" did not come into print until over 16 centuries after Christ spoke these words of being born of water: it comes from the Greek word "amnion" first found in print the 1660s. Now if Jesus was speaking of water baptism in this passage, then he would have said "You must be batized", but he is not talking of baptism, but being born, first in the flesh, and then born-again from his Spirit. You see, Nicodemus was a religious leader, and Jesus was instructing him that religion cannot save the soul, but only being born from the Holy Spirit. For scripture is clear, unless you have the Spirit from Christ you are none of his, none. That means no entry into his kingdom until you get his Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 6/4/12


Ruben, Although this chapter speaks of water, it is not speaking of water baptism, but of water birth which happens naturally to all people born from their mother's, and the mother's protective water breaks before the baby is born naturally into the world.
---Eloy on 6/4/12

Eloy,

Since Jesus did say "you must be born of Water...

Where is there anywhere else in scriptures that mentions of amniotic fluid as water being an interpretation?

Let's look at both John 3: 5 and Titus 3:5

John 3: 5 " Born of water
Titus 3:5 "Washing of regeneration"

John 3:5 " and Spirit"
Titus 3:5 " and renewing of the Holy Spirit"
---Ruben on 6/4/12


Ruben, Yes, The whole point of the chapter, is being born of the Holy Spirit, and has nothing to do with being born of the water. The religious leader's understanding was that people are born from their mother's, as life is. And he asked, do we have to repeat this process to become born again from our mother? And Jesus' answer to him was not at all, for all that are born of water are flesh, but to be born-again you must be born from the Spirit of God. Although this chapter speaks of water, it is not speaking of water baptism, but of water birth which happens naturally to all people born from their mother's, and the mother's protective water breaks before the baby is born naturally into the world.
---Eloy on 6/4/12


Eloy* ruben, Simply put, you are incorrect. When Jesus asked about becoming born-AGAIN, he asked, How? crawl back up into the mother and be born a second time? And what did my Jesus say? You must be born of the water AND from the Spirit.

Water baptism and like Jesus in Mark 1:10 "On coming out of the 'WATER' he saw the Heavens being torn open and the 'SPIRIT', like a dove, descending upon him"


Eloy *Jesus continues: "That which is bornof the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Notice the two separate events?

Yes I notice but did you notice Jesus is not talking about the physical birth but the spiritual birth. ' Born of water AND Spirit'
---Ruben on 6/1/12


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John 3:30_31 "He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly,..." We are on earth.
Hebrews 12:1_3 "... , lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds." Also as Christ said, Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." There, spiritual and earthly - hence the water. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit".
Infant birth?, Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." Lost after birth, 'lost sheep'.
1 Peter 3:21, ...'conscience' toward God? Of your spirit, No... (Mark 12:30,33).
---Nana on 5/31/12


ruben, Simply put, you are incorrect. When Jesus asked about becoming born-AGAIN, he asked, How? crawl back up into the mother and be born a second time? And what did my Jesus say? You must be born of the water AND from the Spirit. All natural human births are already born of the water, as I have already detailed, but not all are born from the Spirit. Jesus continues: "That which is bornof the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Notice the two separate events?
---Eloy on 5/31/12


No, a person is born naturally, and then they must be born-again supernaturally which has zero to do with the person's mother, but has to do with being born from the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 5/30/12

Eloy,

Jesus isn't speaking about two events but one. It's Nicodemus who said about being born again twice. Jesus would had to say 'No one can enter the kingdom of God without being "FIRST" born of water and "THEN" being born again of spirit if he was using your agrument! Instead Jesus said "one must be born of water "AND" spirit..
---Ruben on 5/31/12


ruben, Have you not heard of the amniaotic sac? The pregnant woman has an amniotic sac of water in her which surrounds the unborn infant. When the sac breaks releasing the water before the baby is born. This happens for natural birth. So when Nicodemus asked if a person re-enters their mother's womb in order to be born-again. Jesus was answering him, No, a person is born naturally, and then they must be born-again supernaturally which has zero to do with the person's mother, but has to do with being born from the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 5/30/12


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Ruben, you posted that Jesus was telling Nicodemus he needed water baptism, and that is falsehood. The whole passage is about being born from God, from the Holy Spirit. And unless a person has the Spirit from Christ then they cannot enter his kingdom of heaven.
---Eloy on 5/29/12

Eloy,

Jesus did not say only with the Spirit is he born-again but with 'Water and Spirit' and after talking to Nicodemus scriptures tell us he goes out baptizing with his disciples (Jn. 3:22)Mere coincidence? Nope! Early christians taught that the Gospel of Jhn 3:5 was about water baptism.
---Ruben on 5/30/12


It is not falsehood that John was baptizing with water ahead of any baptism of the Spirit- even continued on par with Christ's ministry, so then water baptism is not exclusive to baptism of the Spirit, it is inclusive. 'Sprinkle', 'wash you' and the like expressions preclude a new heart which we know is a renewed heart rather. An unwashed heart receives not the Spirit (Simon). "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light" which is what John was teaching as he taught "a people prepared for the Lord."
---Nana on 5/30/12


Ruben, you posted that Jesus was telling Nicodemus he needed water baptism, and that is falsehood. The whole passage is about being born from God, from the Holy Spirit. And unless a person has the Spirit from Christ then they cannot enter his kingdom of heaven. No religion, no ceremony, no oblation, no liturgy, no candle-burning, will ever move God. Only the redeemed by Christ are gathered to him, and all else are dross, with their white-clad garments and shiny shoes, and all, all dross.
---Eloy on 5/29/12


ruben, you should not believe that Jesus had no Holy Spirit until he was baptized by John. Jesus is God whom created the earth and the heavens, and Mary and Joseph, and every human being, and is from everlasting to everlasting he God, and he always has the Holy Spirit, even before he created the New Testament baptism as he prophesied hundreds of years before John, in Ezekiel 36:25-27.
---Eloy on 5/28/12

Eloy,

Never said Jesus did not have the HS! Speaking about Ezekiel, that is why Jesus told Nicodemus "You are Israels teacher, said Jesus, and do you not understand these things?" (Jhn 3:10) he should had known about being born again with Water and Spirit as Ezekiel prophecy in the OT.
---Ruben on 5/29/12


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ruben, you should not believe that Jesus had no Holy Spirit until he was baptized by John. Jesus is God whom created the earth and the heavens, and Mary and Joseph, and every human being, and is from everlasting to everlasting he God, and he always has the Holy Spirit, even before he created the New Testament baptism as he prophesied hundreds of years before John, in Ezekiel 36:25-27.
---Eloy on 5/28/12


"... Identified with Him in Death.
---kathr4453

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Rom8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
2 Cor 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2 Cor.4:1_2 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not,
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
AFTER = ALWAYS.,
---Nana on 5/28/12



MarkV,
A person has to want to change.
God REQUIRES a broken heart.
God ALLOWS people to do as they choose.
They have to seek God FIRST.
This doesnt require a person to be saved. Many people know there is a God and arent saved.
Remember that verse you posted? Thats exactly what it means.
You keep thinking thats giving God permission when it isn't.
God loves his creation so much that he will allow them to do what they want with their lives. He gives them a choice because he loves them.
Its like a parent telling their grown child not to do something bad and they do it anyway. The parent doesn't just rescue the child, a GOOD parent lets the child suffer the consequences.
This is what God does.
---ginger on 5/28/12


trey, John 3:5 says Kingdom of God, not Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is "Thy Kingdom Come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven is for the Millennial Kingdom that is to be on earth.

Jesus said MY KINGDOM is not of this world.

It's THAT Kingdom that flesh and blood cannot enter. It's THAT Kingdom one must first be Born Again to enter and then be translated out of this present evil age through Jesus Christ, no longer part of this world...crucified to the world, crucified with Christ.

It's THAT Kingdom no one can see until they are Born Again, Born of the Spirit of the LIFE of Christ. We are Born of the spirit of the Life of Christ only AFTER we have Identified with Him in Death.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/12


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ginger, you say,

"Especially when you don't believe God can change any body"

That is exactly what I believe and you don't. God is the One who change us. Man cannot change himself. He cannot make himself born again. He cannot create the love of Christ in his heart while lost. You love Him because He first loved you.
You believe He cannot change anyone unless man, sinful at that, give Him permission. So it is you who believes God cannot change anyone, unless man let Him. God bound by sinful man.
---Mark_V. on 5/28/12


"What do you want with us, Son of God? they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" ///MarkV

THis is funny. Of course don't need spiritual ears. They are spirits! Just the wrong ones.
They can see God and Jesus for who they are. And yes they can hear! How else did they hear what Jesus said to them.
Now you are compairing human beings who are sinners to demons?! WOW, that is a low low, MarkV.
---ginger on 5/28/12


Again MarkV,
Jusy because you believe and speak does not mean I have to. I read the Bible, I know what it says.
I know what it does not say too. And most of it is your false religions interpretation.

That verse says people can know God and hear his word and yet still sin and not follow him.
The Bible says what it says, I take it at its whole in context. I don't choose or twist what it says. I read it and believe it.
And it does not say anything about total depravity, or God creating some purposefully for heaven or hell. What you believe is false.
Especially when you don't believe God can change any body. I don't believe that God exists. My God loves and can change anyone.
---ginger on 5/27/12


ginger, my hope for you is that one day you stop questioning the Truth. You said,

"Do you realize this verse PROVES that men can believe God and still not be saved?"
of course, (Matt. 8:29) "What do you want with us, Son of God? they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

The passage indicate the demons knew the Son of God and also knew their destination. But that does not mean man have spiritual hearing while lost. That only comes when a person is born of the Spirit. They can hear physically in the flesh, they can see with their own physical eyes but do not have spiritual hearing or spiritual sight.
---Mark_V. on 5/27/12


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Bringing as you say is not equal to giving. For if God gives and forces the issue, to whom was John the Baptist saying, "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance", to the man or to the spirit of God in man?
To whom was it said, "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."
To the man or to the spirit of God in man?

Man's disposition never changes for it needs to be managed always (Matthew 26:41, Col. 3:5).

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

There is the water and there is the Spirit. Why you take away?
---Nana on 5/26/12


"because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Rom. 1:21). They are without excuse.
---Mark_V. on 5/26/12

Do you realize this verse PROVES that men can believe God and still not be saved?
Yet you think they can't even hear him, but this verse says they do but do not glorify him.

Can you please decide on what you believe.
---ginger on 5/26/12


Nana, when God through the Holy Spirit brings spiritual life to a sinner, his dispostion changes. God is always doing the works. That is why the glory goes to God. If a man tries to change on his own without the Spirit everything he does is sin, for it brings no glory to God. For anything without faith is sin. If your actions are on accunt of you, and not on account of Christ who lives in you, then you get the glory. The wrath of God is on those who "because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Rom. 1:21). They are without excuse.
---Mark_V. on 5/26/12


Mark 2:22
Colossians 3:9_10

When apostacy comes or when some receives the 'seed' in the rocks or by the wayside, whose fault is it? If all is Spirit, you are blamming God, not rightly dividing purely human affairs with those of the Spirit."Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil," James 4:17

2 Peter 2:19_20

The thing needing the work, that you ignore...
Matthew 5:24 "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."
---Nana on 5/25/12


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John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jesus told Nicodemus that he should know all the things about being born again since he was a ruler of Israel.

Nicodemus only had the O T. He should have been able to find out how Israel would live on earth during the kingdom. Israel will live on this earth in a natural body and will be born again and go into the kingdom with Him. We, in the body of Christ, will receive a glorified body and live in heaven. Compare Ezekiel 36 & 37 with John 3.

How can we go to the Book of John for the doctrine of salvation when Christ hadn't died yet?
---michael_e on 5/25/12


ruben, after you become born-again, then you will know exactly what the new life is, but until then you and every other NonChristed person will not and cannot know, even as the religious leader Nicodemus did not know what our New Birth is, nor where it comes from, nor how it happens.
---Eloy on 5/24/12


Nana said,
" Simon the sorcerer was born to a woman. What stopped him from being born of the Spirit?"

Simon needed the Holy Spirit to bring him to spiritual life. Simon could not, and neither can anyone, make themselves born of the Spirit. Only the Spirit can do that supernatural act.

Again Joseph, very good points you brought out. Thank you brother.
---Mark_V. on 5/24/12


Ruben,
Just because Christ says "water and spirit" does not mean they happen at the same time.
It is just the requirement.
One must first be born flesh and blood then born of the spirit.
Check out 1 Corinthinans 15:44-46.
It speaks of the natural being first then the spiritual.
Water baptism is a sign of natural death and spiritual birth.
Romans 6:3
Water baptism means baptized into Christ's death.
---ginger on 5/24/12


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Christ said, "of water and of the Spirit". Simon the sorcerer was born to a woman. What stopped him from being born of the Spirit?
What is Jesus saying, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
Is there an extra requirement beyond water and Spirit? John said, "fruits meet for repentance", another thing?
Isaiah 1, "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil... Come now" There is no come now or later for one who 'doeth evil' as he is not 'prepared for the Lord'.
---Nana on 5/23/12


How can a person enter a second time into their mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a person be born of water, and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." This means, born once is natural birth from the water, and born again is supernatural birth from the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 5/22/12

Shouldn't Jesus said 'truly, truly, you were already born from the water now you need to be born from supernatural birth' :) No, Jesus is speaking of one event Born water and spirit. Jesus shows us in his baptism in Jhn 1:33, he goes down into the water and the HS descended on Him. Right after that scripture says he goes out baptizing with his disciples (Jn. 3:22)
---Ruben on 5/23/12


The emphasis is not on the water, but the whole passage emphasizes being born of the Spirit. When Jesus told Nicodemus, "Except a person be born again, that one cannot see the kingdom of God." Then Nicodemus asks, How? can a person enter a second time into their mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a person be born of water, and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." This means, born once is natural birth from the water, and born again is supernatural birth from the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 5/22/12


shira, throughout the bible is the comparison and contrast of flesh and spirit. it simply follows,

and it is well documented that man continues to want to "ritualize" spirit to turn what is made to feel like spirit back into flesh.
---aka on 5/21/12


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"thank you joseph, thank you aka, i totally disagree." You are quite welcome Nana, and we can always agree to disagree at the very least:o)
---joseph on 5/22/12


aka, you are absolutely right. there is a natural birth and a spiritual birth.
---shira4368 on 5/21/12


thank you joseph, thank you aka, i totally disagree.
---Nana on 5/21/12


I spiritualize the passage in my previous post, taking it out of context. In this particular instance, based on the context, Jesus seems to be making a distinction between that which is natural, and that which is spiritual. In that case, "born of water" I believe is referring to the bag of water from which we are born into this world.
---joseph on 5/18/12

thank you joseph. i totally agree.
---aka on 5/20/12


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Joseph, I completely agree with your answer. "Born of water and Spirit" here Jesus referred not to literal water, but to the need for "cleansing" (Ezek. 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the Old Testament, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, "especially when used in conjunction with "Spirit" (Numb. 19:17-19: Ps. 51:9,10: Isa. 32:15: 44:3-5: 55:1-3: Jer. 2:13: Joel 2:28,29). Thus Jesus was making reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Eph. 5:26: Titus 3:5) required for belonging to His Kingdom.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/12


Nicodemus understood the reference to a grown man, therefore he said "... mother's womb, and be born?"
Jesus specified a twofold event which at first called it 'born again' in general (John 3:3), "born of water and of the Spirit."
John 3:20 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
Isaiah 1:16_17.
Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
There, the water and the Spirit. Why you take away?
---Nana on 5/18/12


Yes, it does.
---Cluny on 5/17/12

I must firmly disagree.

No where in the Bible is baptism called "born of water" or "water birth' or anything like that. Baptism is synonymous with death, Christ's death. We as believers are baptised into His death, so that we may be freed from sin.

Also, if two things (new birth and baptism) are required, then why would Jesus not give Nicodemus both at the start? If two things are required then Jesus seemingly contradicts himself by saying two different things. Jesus also omits the "born of water" when He repeats it again in John 3:7.

No, only one thing is required, to be born again. Anything else is reading INTO the verses.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/18/12


Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."


John 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
"... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

When the word takes strong root, it is then that a man is born of water. Cluny mentioned 'confirmation' and I agree:
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
---Nana on 5/18/12


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I spiritualize the passage in my previous post, taking it out of context. In this particular instance, based on the context, Jesus seems to be making a distinction between that which is natural, and that which is spiritual. In that case, "born of water" I believe is referring to the bag of water from which we are born into this world.
---joseph on 5/18/12


Trey, 'I believe' Jesus was teaching that those who will enter into the Kingdom are sanctify and cleansed, with the washing of water by the word, washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, by the Spirit of our God. In His own words, "Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit," Jhn 4:14>1Pe 1:23>Tts 3:5 See also John 7:37-39
---joseph on 5/17/12


\\To be born of water refers to physical childbirth, from a woman. It does not mean baptism.

Yes, it does.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/17/12


To be born of water refers to physical childbirth, from a woman. It does not mean baptism. Anyone alive today has already been born of water. To be born of the Spirit means to experience the new birth from the Spirit of God, often called "born-again".
---Jed on 5/17/12


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Human birth?

Disagree on account that Jesus said, " Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Isaiah 1:16_17 "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil,
Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."
Luke 1:16_17 "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
---Nana on 5/17/12


The requirements for resurecentrance into the kingdom of heaven for the human form is first to be born as a human from a mortal parent.
The next requirement is to have been born of the spirit whereas a person has a birth of a soul-reborn- God consciousness.
---earl on 5/17/12


The FLESH is not innately or intrinsically evil or wicked, it is simply the spiritual handicap/weakness of being human/"mortal".

The woman who washed Jesus's feet used "living water" from her "heart of flesh" (tears of sorrow from a gentle heart).

...look up in the concordance or the blueletterbible website all of the words that I've put in quotes.

God's SPIRIT agrees with the WATER and the blood...

1 John 5:8 "There are three witnesses.....".

1 Corinthians 15:39 "not all flesh is alike".

Ezekiel 36:26 "the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh".

Verses are from the RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 5/16/12


\\Nicodemus was a priest he probably had the entire OT memorized,aka he knew the Law.\\

Wrong.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee. The cohenim were for the most part of the conservative party of the Saducees.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/16/12


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Jesus uses natural things to talk about spiritual realities. For example, Jesus says the Holy Spirit is "rivers of living water", in John 7:38. And in chapter 4, after Jesus tells Nicodemus (chapter 3) to be born "of water", Jesus tells the woman He has water that she does not know about, meaning the living and loving water of eternal life.

So, I would not advise people to try to be born of physical water, then, because this would be idolatry, to seek to be born creation's water instead of the water who is the Holy Spirit.

"Spirit" is not capitalized in original Bible manuscripts, to my knowledge. This word can mean breath or a breeze refreshing.
---willie_c: on 5/16/12


It is a reference to baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit which comes with it.
---Catholicus on 5/16/12


Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation.

That's what was believed from the beginning, as can be seen in the ancient Christian writers.

Only at the Reformation did people try to get away from this.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/16/12


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