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Did Jesus Christ Preexist

Did Jesus Christ preexist as the Son of God or did He become the Son upon his incarnation into this world?

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micha9344 VERY NICE!

And lets not forget Gen 32:24:
Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:28: this man changed his name!
Gen 32:30: Israel, called a man, God! A man!

And the beginnings:
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
They did can't hear his voice, yet!
They heard the sound of the voice walking!

Anyway, I would say, God bless you all.
But, I all ready know he had! Take that to the bank!
So I'll just say, I do love you all!
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/29/12


Some have contended that Hebrews 7:3 implies that the Son of God existed before Melchizedek, since the ancient priest/king was made like unto the Son of God. The phrase made like unto is not intended to emphasize a chronological order of existence, rather, it merely stresses an analogy in terms of priesthood. Christs priesthood abides continually. So did Melchizedeks, i.e., it did not have a genealogical commencement and termination. Predominately in Hebrews, Christ is said to be a priest after the order of Melchizedek (5:6, 6:20, 7:17). It is clear that the order of mention is not germane.

No one saw God in the OT, or could say what God looked like. THE SON in the OT had the form of a man???? So the MAN/Son preexisted? How?
---kathr4453 on 5/29/12


22 My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me, and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.

God sends an angel for Daniel, and sends the Son of God to the others??/

The original in "The furnace" is "the son of a god"= he saw an angel.

Neb, a wicked king, says he knew and recognized someone who looked like the Son of God??? Hardly! He didn't even believe in God much less the Son of God.

None of these verses explicitly say either WERE in Fact THE SON OF GOD!
---kathr4453 on 5/29/12


Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest continually.
--Wow, Mechisedec was made like the Son of God, what 2000 years before He was born on Earth?
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
--The Son of God even known back then? 600 years prior?
--and some here would tell you that The Word of God, made flesh, only became the Son of the God of all spirits upon physical birth.
---micha9344 on 5/28/12


I too agree with James and Kathr on this one.

By the Kathr, I wanted to say thanks on the romans 9:8 blog but ran out of room. Its a girl by the way and I am so excited!

Anyway,
Jesus met by Mary, he said do not cling to me, haven't ascended, glorified yet.
Doubting Thomas said he needed proof, got to touch the nail holes.
I believe there is a difference here.
Mary wanted to keep him here.
Thomas just wanted to see.
While here before ascension, he had not YET been glorified. Christ says this himself.
Christ is the word and is the son of God and is God.
---ginger on 5/28/12




\\Psalms 2:7 "..Thou art MY SON, this day have I begotten thee.".....(Pro.30:4)

Perhaps what you're saying is that Jesus Christ was only really introduced to His people as His son when He said "This is my beloved Son,... hear ye him." (Mat.17:5)\\
---jonweckl on 5/25/12


No, that's not what I am saying. Psalm 2 is speaking of when Jesus returns as King. This "inheritance" (verse 8), is the fulfillment of Israel's covenant. Hebrews 2:9 says it (glory) is because of Christ's suffering. Jesus was "anointed" the Christ (Suffering Servant) at His baptism, which prefigured the suffering He would endure.

I agree with Kathr at Proverbs 30
---James_L on 5/28/12


14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/12


Of course He preexisted. What else could this verse mean?

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world was.


---jerry6593 on 5/28/12


So, God did not become the Father until after Jesus was born?
And the Word did not become the Son until after He was born?
When does one become a parent? birth? conception?
Why are we concerned about the unborn "child" if he or she is not truly yet our child?
Even with that, did God become the Father upon conception?
This sounds more like Arian doctrine than the eternal Son does.
For those who adhere to Arian theology cannot grasp the equality and the eternality of a son and father from a human standpoint.
But we all know His ways are above our ways.
---micha9344 on 5/28/12


Kathr, Jesus is both man and God. You cannot change Him. In the incarnation Christ added a human nature, but the divine nature is unchanged and is immutable. Christ has never changed, the same Person who existed from eternity past is the One seen on earth during the period of the Gospels and the One who is the glorified Son of God in heaven. As a confirmation of specific attributes it is also revealed in Scripture that in Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead, "For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9).
---Mark_V. on 5/28/12




Joh_1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Clearly, this is saying The Word(Christ) is God.

Joh_1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things were made by Christ(God.) This means anything and everything was made by Christ!
To say Christ(God) made himself is foolish or that somehow he changed.

Joh_8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh_14:7, Joh_14:9, 1Jn_2:23

Anyone who would try to separate the son from the father is also foolish.
Joh_10:30, Rom_8:38-9!
Good day, Peace
---TheSeg on 5/27/12


" But going back again to Prov.8:23, he was "set up from everlasting" So when you said the God is from everlasting to everlasting, it does not contradict that the Son was begotten because he was begotten from evelasting, hence he is from everlasting... to everlasting.
---jonweckl on 5/27/12
Proverbs 8 speaks of wisdom as a SHE. And it is only your interpretation that proverbs 8 is referring to Jesus Christ.

There are no scripures in the OT other that prophetic scripture pointing to the Comming Messiah as a son.

Jesus was not "brough forth" in the beginning. Where was He then before He was "SET UP" or "Brought forth?? HE IS the Beginning and the end.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


Question:

Many of the early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Athanasius etc., believed Proverbs 8:22, referred to Christ in his prehuman existence. Yet Proverbs 8:22 says that Yahweh created Wisdom. Since many Christian writers believed that this reference is about Christ doesn't this prove that he is not God Almighty, but the first creature that God made?

Answer:

Even though the NT describes Jesus in language that is reminiscent of the Wisdom texts, with the early Church using Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus' prehuman existence and generation, the reference itself is not speaking of Christ. The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom:
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


MarkV, I have no clue why you changed the subject. What you are talking about was never in the conversation...no one is questioning Jesus as the mediator betwen God and man.

You stated Jesus was in a GLORIFIED BODY while on earth for 40 days.

WE don't even know what WE will be like, but we know according to scripture WE will be LIKE HIM, for we shall see HIM as HE IS. 1st John.

If He was already in a Glorified Body before His ascention, that verse would make no sense.

But, not wanting to admit you were wrong, you changed the subject??? WHY? Oh Because you can't admit you were wrong.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


Kathr, i don't know anything about the "dogma" nor any of the other "theological" stuff you spoke of. But for me, this is just how i see it:

You say "if.. the 2nd person.. was begotten.." Doesn't Prov.8:22-31 speak of the Son as having been begotten or brought forth? As well, even in the OT the "2nd person" has been named as "Son" (Ps.2:7) (Prov.30:4).

Then you conclude "...he is not enternal God," But going back again to Prov.8:23, he was "set up from everlasting" So when you said the God is from everlasting to everlasting, it does not contradict that the Son was begotten because he was begotten from evelasting, hence he is from everlasting... to everlasting.
---jonweckl on 5/27/12


If language is to have any discernible meaning at all, it is not possible to have both an eternal son, and an eternal father, for in the nature of the case, a Father is always perceived to be anterior to his son, and a son subsequent to his father. Thus, if God is the father of the pre-incarnate son, the son cannot be eternal, hence, must have been created as the heretic Arius alleged, and the Jehovahs Witnesses affirm. The dogma of eternal generation paved the way for the Arian view though it would be unfair to equate modern denominationalists with the total Arian theological package.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


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If it is the case that the Second Person of the Godhead was begotten, he is not eternal God, for eternality is an intrinsic quality of deity, God is from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). If a doctrine, by necessary implication, negates the deity of Jesus Christ, can one be considered faithful who espouses it?


The dogma is discredited logically by self-contradiction. To contend that the Son was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of terms. It is the equivalent of saying, Christ had an eternal beginning. Can an object begin, and not have been begun?
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


The concept of eternal sonship is inconsistent with the language of the prophets. Isaiah declared that the virgin would conceive and bear a son, whose name would be called Immanuel (7:14, Matthew 1:22-23). The son status is said to follow Marys conception. If conception is the equivalent of begotten, and Christ was eternally begotten, would not this suggest that he was eternally conceived? Later Isaiah prophetically declared, a child is born, a son is given (9:6). Does not this connect the role of being son with that of the birth of the child? If not, how can one ever have confidence in the meaningful interpretation of language? And if the son of this text is an eternal son, would this also imply that the child is an eternal child?
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


Origin and Growth of the Dogma began here:


Origen (c. 185-254), a scholar in Alexandria, wrote:

Jesus Christ Himself, who came (into the world), was born of the Father before all creatures, that, after He had been the servant of the Father in the creation of all things -for by Him were all things made- He in the last times, divesting Himself (of his glory), and became a man, and was incarnate although God (De Principiis Preface 4).

Please note the underlined and bolded text is FALSE right from the get go. That would make Him less than EQUAL right from the beginning.

Although Jesus did not find it wrong to say He was equal to God, HE humbled HIMSELF.
*****Philippians 2*****
---kathr4453 on 5/27/12


Kathr, you have no clue who the Mediator is. The Mediator is someone who intervenes between two parties. God and the sinner. By necessity He must be different person from each of the parties, whom it is His design to reconcile. The Mediator between God and men cannot be God only, or man only. These is taugh in (Gal. 3:20). A mediator is not of one, but God is one. In His nature He never changes. God is only one party. Man is only one party. Consequently, the Mediator between God and men must be related to both, and be equal of either. Therefore the eternal Son must take man's nature into union with Himself if He would be a mediator between God and men. The same truth is taught in (1 Samuel 2:25).
---Mark_V. on 5/27/12


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The real translation should be with Mary, don't CLING TO ME, being different than Thomas touching Him. Their wasn't a problem with touching Him, but clinging to who Mary thought He was after His resurrection, the same Jesus with the same relationship.
We have a NEW relationship with Christ, and this is my belief why Jesus said, I have not yet ascended to my Father. It's the RISEN GLORIFIED Christ we have a relationship with. And I believe this is what He was trying to say to Mary, and to US through what He said to Mary.

I don't care to argue about this with you. THIS IS MY Conviction of what that means. I just know it wasn't a problem with Thomas or did Jesus even say that to Thomas, because it was addressing two different issues.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/12


God had the Word internal, eternal. The Word was begot (brought forth from within) on His command.
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
(Proverbs 8)
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him...
Begot does not always mean physical birth.
---micha9344 on 5/26/12


Francis, I agree with your view.

If we are created in the image of God and we are spirit, soul and body (three but yet one) (1 Thes 5:23), God is also a threesome but yet one being.
---CraigA on 5/26/12


kathr4453, I hear you!
I would like you to consider these two lines in the bible.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Isa_9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Im just saying its not God that changes, its man!
This light has exited from the beginning.

Joh_1:5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

Not everybody can see the light.
And it doesn't mean the light is not there.
I believe there are some who know this light.
Therefore do see, its just hard to believe.
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/26/12


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Jesus was glorified and given a spiritual body after he ascended to the Father in Acts, chapter 1, not before. During the forty days after his resurrection, which he spent with his disciples, he remained in his natural body. He walked and talked with them daily. When He ascended into heaven, He was still in his natural body. The Father glorified the Son with a spiritual body, one that outshines the sun in brightness. If Jesus had been in his glorified, spiritual body while here on the earth with His disciples, they could not have endured the power and brightness of it. Even in John's vision of Christ in Revelation 1, he was overwhelmed by the power and majesty of Jesus' glorified body:

Paul was blinded by the brightness of His Glory.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/12


I am not sure that there is hierarchy in the Godhead. I am sure that they are ONE, and Equal.

But there is in the OT evidence of division of labour from the Godhead

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Daniel 3:25 and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God

Equal, but seperate, but ONE
---francis on 5/25/12


Kathr, you are wrong concerning the passage that speaks about Jesus talking to Mary. You said,
"Jesus wasn't glorified until He went into Heaven. That's why He told Mary Mag not to touch Him. HIS PHYSICAL BODY rose from the grave B4 He was Glorified." The passage does not say such things. Mary was expressing a desire to hold on to His physical presence for fear that she would once again lose Him. Jesus reference to His ascension signifies that He would only be temporally with them and though she desperately want Him to stay, He could not. He said to her "Do not cling to Me" Jesus told Thomas to touch Him, to reach his finger and touch the nail holes on His hands.
---Mark_V. on 5/26/12


Elder, I take the words of Jesus in (Luke 24:39) literally. For Jesus to say first, "Behold My hands and My feet. that it is I Myself Handle Me and see" He was indicating He had hands and feet as He had before He died. Then He said, "for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" refering to what He had just told them about His hands and feet, they saw with their eyes. God does have hands and arms but they are Spiritual and we cannot see them because He is Spirit and spirits don't have hands or feet that we can see. After showing His flesh, they still did not believe Him, so (v.41,42) He ask for food to show them flesh eats and spirits don't. If you read the passage differently I respect that.
---Mark_V. on 5/26/12


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I think the key word here is "begotten".

There's only one time I see in scripture where theres ANY mention of God begetting a Son and that was at the virgin birth.

Before Christ was born into this world we see no evidence of a Godhead hierarchy. The Father greater than the Word, the Word greater than the Spirit, etc etc. If anyone has evidence of this please post the scripture. If not we must go with ONLY what we know. That the Word of God who IS God was born in the flesh as the "Son" of God, and ONLY then was He subservient to the Father and ONLY because He was in the flesh and living as an example to all of us! He is now restored to his previous glory with the Father. He IS our Creator.
---CraigA on 5/25/12


Jesus taught it also when He entered the room in His glorified body they thought they had seen a spirit. ---representations" used to make God's actions more understandable to our finite minds, but God has no material substance.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/12


Jesus wasn't glorified until He went into Heaven. That's why He told Mary Mag not to touch Him. HIS PHYSICAL BODY rose from the grave B4 He was Glorified.

It's the RISEN Christ in bodily form that sits at the right hand of the Father.

When Jesus comes again we will see the nail prints in His Hands.

Zechariah 12:10 --- and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, ---.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/12


JamesL > "The only place in scripture where we actually see this fulfillment is at Jesus' baptism"

I would have to disagree.

Psalms 2:7 "..Thou art MY SON, this day have I begotten thee."(Psalms 2:7) , "...what is his name, and what is HIS SON'S name..." (Pro.30:4)

meaning that even before Jesus Christ began His earthly ministry, He has been mentioned (in the OT) as the "Son".

Perhaps what you're saying is that Jesus Christ was only really introduced to His people as His son when He said "This is my beloved Son,... hear ye him." (Mat.17:5)
---jonweckl on 5/25/12


\\You said "God asked for help from a little minion god?" -- The scripture never mentioned the Son as a little minion god so why use such term?\\
---jonweckl on 5/23/12


I use the term because the JWs !! LOVE !! to cry "pagan polytheism" against Trinitarians. All the while, they are hypocrites.

They believe in an "Almighty" God, and lesser gods - one of whom is Jesus, an angel (supposedly).

"Almighty" created His "son", and then the "son" created everything else.

Compare that to Canaanite polytheism - one "Supreme" god (El), and a whole host of lesser minion gods.

The cults of Canaan were the forerunners of JWs with their minion gods
---James_L on 5/23/12


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Of course He preexisted. What else could this verse mean?

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


---jerry6593 on 5/24/12


Gen_3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

This voice they heard in the cool of the day.
Who did it belong too?
They said the voice of the LORD God.
Then this voice is the word of God! (Walking)

Well people, the word is walking!
But maybe God voice and God word are different.
Not in this book!

By the way he got finger too.
Exo_31:18, written with the finger of God.

Ps.
To you that think, Christ is sitting beside himself.
Think again! Maybe you just can't see it.
Peace all
---TheSeg on 5/22/12


micha9344, love your post! Amen my sister in Christ!!!
I totally agree that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.
---trey on 5/22/12


James L,

I know that you addressed your post on 5/22/12 to Scott but please allow me to give my five cents worth on your question.

You said "God asked for help from a little minion god?" -- The scripture never mentioned the Son as a little minion god so why use such term? While a human is born as a baby, it doesn't necessarily mean that when God had begotten the Son that the son was brought forth as a baby (or little God). Prov.8:22-31 tells us that the Son was brought forth before God's works of old. While God was doing His creations, the Son was already there rejoicing before the Father.
---jonweckl on 5/23/12


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Do you believe that Jesus is "three-in-one" (the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost)? OR, do you believe that Jesus is "one-of-three" (the Son only, being one God of three Gods)? And does it really matter which way you believe in Jesus when Jesus is your only Lord God in whom you worship and obey? The Judeo-Christian belief is One God in three manifestations or aspects. And sometimes the Father is magnified, sometimes the Son is talked about, and sometimes the Spirit is emphasized, and sometimes all three are shown at once: the omnipresent voice from heaven, the dove descending from heaven, and the flesh body of the Son walking on top of water.
---Eloy on 5/23/12


\\Please explain.\\
---Scott on 5/22/12


How about you explain Gen 1:26-27 ??

So, God asked for help from a little minion god?

And then determined to get help making man in not only His own image, but also in the image of this little minion god?

And then just changed His mind and decided He didn't need the help of His little minion god?

And made man Himself, only in His own image, and not in the image of the little minion god also?

Please explain
---James_L on 5/22/12


Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
--This doesn't say Jesus was sent into this world to become His Son, He was already His Son before He was sent.
--He was King, Christ, Heir and Son well before His baptism.
--I believe you are wrong, JamesL

---micha9344 on 5/22/12


Jesus preexisted as the Word of God. John 1:1,14 In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh,and made his dwelling among us. When Jesus was born a man he was called the only begotten of the Father,God's son Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said",This is my son whom I love,with him I am well pleased.
---Darlene_1 on 5/22/12


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"Both Divine and Human natures, including a physical body." Cluny/Mark_V

So since "God is spirit" (John 4:24) are we to understand that one person of the Trinity (Christ) has a physical body in heaven while the other two, the Father (John 4:24...again) is spirit, and the Holy spirit is...well...spirit?

Please explain.
---Scott on 5/22/12


This is great, does God have hands and feet.
Is God sitting next to himself? Kind of like Mar 3:21!

Or maybe Christ isnt even God, being he has to sit at his father side.
Oh, Im sorry, I mean God side. Wait a minute, maybe he isnt even sitting.
Act_7:55! So, is Jesus lying?

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

What a dilemma
Luk_21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:



By the way James_L
Do you know who was wrestling with Jacob in Gen 32:24?
He said God
---TheSeg on 5/22/12


\\...and the Word became flesh (Jn 1)....Jesus was the Son before his birth\\
---Peter on 5/20/12

Where do you find biblical support to take the leap that "Word" = "Son" ???

Does "Word" = Servant ???
Does "Word" = King ???
Does "Word" = Priest ???
Does "Word" = Prophet ???

You should study the Old Testament significance of a son.

How was Isaac the "only son" of Abraham, when Ishmael was already born?

Why do you think the WatchTower nuts keep pressing on? Because they are right on one accord - There Is Not One Scripture That Mentions an Eternal Son

Jesus is the Eternal WORD of God, who BECAME The Son (HEIR) of God
---James_L on 5/21/12


Mark I can accept your explaining as why you wrote to Scott.
But, you still are taking a position that the Bible does not teach in trying to explain Lk 24:39. This verse still does not say a spirit is without hands. Jesus spoke of flesh and bones.
I don't care what "Anthropomorphisms" means, it is not a biblical word. So that doesn't apply either.
We are created in God's image, God is a spirit, God spoke of His left and right hand. So again, do you know something the Bible doesn't teach? How can you know it is even near the truth?

---Elder on 5/22/12


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Daniela's post on 5/17/12 was correct. In Gen.1:26 when it says "let US make man in OUR image..." we can see that God was talking to someone: "let US make man." And this someone has the same image as God: "in OUR image."

Col.1:13-15 tells us that the image of the invisible God is his dear Son.

The Son which at a certain point in eternity was in the bosom of the Father (Jhn.1:18) was begotten by the Father (Heb.1:5). When was the Son begotten?

Prov.8:22-31 tells that the son was already there before God's works of old. "From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth." (v.23) the Son was already there with the Father, rejoicing always before Him. (V.30)
---jonweckl on 5/22/12


Linda, I don't know why you would say what you did to my response. No one has seen God. They have seen the incarnated Jesus Christ because He has a body. They saw the manifestation of God in the Angel of the Lord, and in many other cases. But as God He has no immaterial parts.
We were made in His image alright. Man (Adam) was made holy, as God, but it is the soul of man that especially bears God's image. And Adam saw Divine things clearly and truly as God. As God, man is a personal being with power to think, feel, and decide. He has the ability to make moral choices and the capacity for spiritual growth. The fall changed this. Man's spirit was so altered by sin that he fled from God and now loves evil more than righteousness (John 3:19,20).
---Mark_V. on 5/22/12


\\So is the risen Christ spirit or flesh and blood?
---scott on 5/20/12\\

This is not an either-or question.

Since His incarnation in the womb of the Virgin, He has the fullness of both Divine and Human natures, including a physical body.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/21/12


"....because God does not have hands, He is Spirit. How could He seat at His right hand?"
Mark_V.


Are you serious or just being argumentative?

(Gen 1:27)
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them."
---LindaH on 5/21/12


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Elder, my response to Scott had a purpose. He wanted to indicate Jesus was not God because He set down at the right hand of God as if the passage was literal. That was the reason I answered with what I did if taken literally.
My answer was going to be that sometimes when the right hand of God, or the right hand of the Father, or the right hand of Majesty is mentioned in the New Testament, it represents a place of honor.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/12


In the beginning was the Word........ and the Word became flesh (Jn 1)

Jesus was the Son before his birth
---Peter on 5/20/12


Elder, you asked,

"Mark, just asking... how do you know that a spirit doesn't have hands? Do you know something that the Bible doesn't teach?"

The Bible does teach it. Jesus taught it also when He entered the room in His glorified body they thought they had seen a spirit. He calm them by saying,
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39). The words used are called "Anthropomorphisms" a word meaning "human form." They are "symbolic representations" used to make God's actions more understandable to our finite minds, but God has no material substance.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/12


\\"If you were right to proof I'm wrong, your wrong again because God does not have hands, He is Spirit. How could He seat at His right hand? Mark_V

So is the risen Christ spirit or flesh and blood?
---scott on 5/20/12\\

No mature believer has ever understood such phrases as "hand of God" in an earthly material sense.

I know the mormonoid mutants from Kolob do, but I'm talking about Christians here.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/20/12


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"....because God does not have hands, He is Spirit. How could He seat at His right hand?"
Mark_V.
Mark, just asking... how do you know that a spirit doesn't have hands? Do you know something that the Bible doesn't teach? If God said "Right Hand" then it must be right hand!!
---Elder on 5/20/12


"If you were right to proof I'm wrong, your wrong again because God does not have hands, He is Spirit. How could He seat at His right hand? Mark_V

So is the risen Christ spirit or flesh and blood?
---scott on 5/20/12


Kathr & Blogger 9680,

Sorry, I realized that I failed to tie togehter Jesus becoming the Son at His baptism, and that His inheritance was secured by His suffering,

Jesus' baptism was not for any forgiveness. Rather, he was "immersed" as a picture of His immersion in suffering

And this suffering secured His inheritance (Heb 2:9). Look in the OT, how the first son was the principle heir (Deut 21:15-17, Num 27))

God's Son means God's Heir.

Jesus is not King of Kings YET. He is not called that until Revelation 17:14 at His return to sit on the throne
---James_L on 5/20/12


Scott, I was under the impression you knew that when the writers wants to express something that happen between the Three Persons of the Godhead, their titles are given. In many cases God is called the Father, not just father, for if it said father only, no one would know which father. When it mentions the incarnated Christ, it says, Jesus Christ, or Lord. When it mentions the Holy Spirit it makes the distiction One from the other. You want to divide Jesus from God with you dumb theology. But you are wrong,

"He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God".
If you were right to proof I'm wrong, your wrong again because God does not have hands, He is Spirit. How could He seat at His right hand?
---Mark_V. on 5/20/12


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\\they suffered in Egypt because they were in BONDAGE. Then came the Passover\\
---kathr4453 on 5/19/12

I agree with your post, Kathr.

But I was not saying what causes suffering. What I was saying is - what comes of our suffering? Inheritance

Jesus is the Suffering Servant

Hebrews 2:9-10 says that "glory" was bestowed upon Christ BECAUSE He suffered. Also that He is bringing many to "glory" with him. This is what James and John wanted - to sit at his right and left "in Your glory"

Jesus asked "are you able to suffer?"

This is what Satan tempted Jesus with - to not suffer. Insetead, to bow to Satan, and the whole world would be His.
---James_L on 5/19/12


"Jesus is at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19)" Mark_V

Notice that Mark_V changes the wording of the text to avoid the theological dilemma that the actual language creates for him.

Mark 16:19 says that Jesus "sat down at the right hand of God." (NOT the "Father).

Is God a trinity or not? If so then Mark 16:19 describes Jesus as sitting at the right hand of the Trinity.

This is clearly problematic from a trinitarian perspective so watch for the language switcheroo and the use of unscriptural terms like "God the Son", "two natures", etc., when trying to fit "square" theology into the "round" hole of God's inspired word.
---scott on 5/19/12


Not according to scripture. God ordained that His heirs will suffer. And this suffering secures the inheritance

For example, Israel was not led to inherit the promised land until they had suffered in Egypt.
---James_L on 5/18/12


I disagree with this part James L, they suffered in Egypt because they were in BONDAGE. Then came the Passover,( BLOOD) delivering them from that bondage.

Moses left Egypt suffering the REPROACH OF CHRIST counting the reproach of Christ far greater than the treasures of Egypt.

Suffering comes when we identify with Christ as being FREE from bondage and sin.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/12


And how can the Father, or the Holy Spirit, for that matter, have "physical aspects"?
Cluny on 5/18/12

I hope, I can disagree with you and them.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is Jesus Christ fully, God?
Then here are the physical aspects!

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The first commandments
Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord

1Jn_5:7 three are one
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/19/12


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Jesus prayed, "now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (in John 17:5) So, "before the world was", Jesus was with the Father in the Father's own glory. So, yes Jesus existed "before the world was".

Acts 13:33 shows that God begetting Jesus can mean begetting Him from the dead > so He is "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18). But Jesus was His Father's Son, before that. Or how could the Father be His Father? (c:

And I understand "Father" means a Person, and "Son" means a Person . . . not manifestations or "gods", but Persons of love. The Son is not His own Father (c:
---willie_c: on 5/19/12


//"This is nothing more or less than the heresy of Sabellian Modalism, which was rejected in the second century."//
...from one needing "presbyterian bi-focals"
---Eloy on 5/19/12


\\Jesus is The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost- One Triune God evidenced in three physical manifestations or aspects:\\

This is nothing more or less than the heresy of Sabellian Modalism, which was rejected in the second century.

If youm believe this, then youm are not Christianed or saved, Eloy, because you don't believe in the real Jesus.

And how can the Father, or the Holy Spirit, for that matter, have "physical aspects"?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/18/12


\\Ive always thought of Jesus Christ as the heir of Earth\\
---Blogger9680

I can see your point there, too. Jesus will will come back to earth and establish His kingdom here.


\\He would have become the "son" or "heir" the day He was born in the flesh.\\

Not according to scripture. God ordained that His heirs will suffer. And this suffering secures the inheritance

For example, Israel was not led to inherit the promised land until they had suffered in Egypt.
---James_L on 5/18/12


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Jesus always was, always is, and always will be the Everlasting God. Jesus is The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost- One Triune God evidenced in three physical manifestations or aspects: Yahwah and Yeshuah and Shiloh is one God Almighty, not three. Thus into the fulness of the Godhead is the Christian baptized.
---Eloy on 5/18/12


The Word of God became His Son from conception.
God is infinite, all knowing, and not bound by time.
God did not conceive His Son, His Son was already there.
Just the same as God's wisdom, He did not produce it, it was part of Him, Who He was.
The Word of God was 'brought forth' just like any of us would bring forth a word, but we have to think of it first...God does not.
The Word became flesh.
There was never a time when the Father was without His Son, nor the Son without His Father.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
---micha9344 on 5/18/12


"Son" describes His POSITION as HEIR of God's throne.
---James_L on 5/18/12


Ok James, and given that position, does it make sense for an eternal God who cannot die to have an heir? Its not like the Father will die one day and the Son take over the throne in Heaven.

See Ive always thought of Jesus Christ as the heir of Earth since He paid for all of our sins with his blood. In which case He would have become the "son" or "heir" the day He was born in the flesh.

What do you think?
---Blogger9680 on 5/18/12


\\"Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee."

So when was this "day"?\\
---Blogger9680 on 5/17/12


The only place in scripture where we actually see this fulfillment is at Jesus' baptism.

Jesus became the Son at His baptism. See Luke 3:22, ref Hebrews 1:4-5

Today I have begotten You....
He "will be" a Son to Me


But "Son" does not describe Jesus' essence at all. Just like "Messiah" is not His essence. Just like "King of Kings" does not describe His essence

"Son" describes His POSITION as HEIR of God's throne.
---James_L on 5/18/12


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Blogger96, Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God. No question about it. It is evident that Christ is declared by the Scriptures to be eternal (Micah 5:2: John 8:58: Col. 1:16,17: Rev. 1:8:). All of the Scriptures which point to His preexistence and activity in the Old T. also sustain the conclusion that He is eternal and so therefore God.
The fact that Jesus Christ is Omnipresent does not contradict the concept that He also has locality. While living on earth, He also was omnipresent in His dity. At the present time, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19: 1 Peter 3:22) although at the same time Omnipresent and indwelling the believer.
---Mark_V. on 5/18/12


Let me clarify a bit.

Psalm 2:7-9 seems to indicate that the Messiah is speaking of himself in a future tense proving that He preexisted as something. However, a certain "day" is mentioned as to WHEN He BECAME the Son.

"
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee.
"

So when was this "day"?
---Blogger9680 on 5/17/12


Isa9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You cannot give something you do not have. God gave his Son. This tells me Christ is the eternal Son of God.
John 1:1
John 17:5
---trey on 5/17/12


To ask if Jesus Christ preexisted is to ask the wrong question, or express it the wrong way.

The Logos/Son eternally existed and was always the Son of God of the same essence as the Father.

Only upon His incarnation did He become the Son of Man and was known as Jesus.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/17/12


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Two things, I see in Joh_8:58!
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not only is he saying, I Am, I Am!
But, I Am, I was and I Am yet to come!

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him!
If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Abide in him!
---TheSeg on 5/17/12


1st. question -clarify your question-Pre existant to what point in time????
2nd question -no.Jesus pre existed as a spirit being prior to his incarnation as a mortal .
---earl on 5/17/12


John 1 reveals that the One who became the Son of God pre-existed as the Word. When the Word was made flesh He became the Son of God.
---Sandy_G on 5/17/12


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