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Writings Of Apostle Paul

Apparently there are a couple of people here who think St.Paul was a fraud. I would be interested to hear their views on what they think Christianity should be like without his writings.

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The resurrection of Jesus is the monumental event of human history. Yet, why he needed to resurrect wasn't fully revealed until the Apostle Paul.

During his life on earth no one knew he would resurrect, not even his disciples.

For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. John 20:9
The crucifixion was seen first as the deathblow to the kingdom gospel preached during Matthew-John, but the resurrection gave the kingdom gospel new life (1 Pet 1:3). Since he was risen from the dead he could return to establish the kingdom that he preached to Israel (Mark 1:15, Acts 3:19-20).
---michael_e on 6/11/12


Mark V, when a person is sanctified in the truth, John 17:17 they are united with the Father and His Son. They will not say that the law is fulfilled by loving your neighbour when Jesus Christ NEVER said that. How can the ten commandments be fulfilled by keeping only one? You can search the scriptures until you are blue in the face but you will never see where Jesus said that.

John 17:20-26.
---barb on 6/11/12


Saul of Tarsus hated the Lord Jesus Christ as few men have ever hated Him. After Saul was converted he became the apostle Paul. He then loved and served the Lord Jesus Christ as did no other man. I Cor 15:10.
Something of Paul's affection and devotion is expressed in his words in Acts 21:13: "I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus."
---michael_e on 6/11/12


sis barb 2: Also, Jesus and Paul could never speak the same words. No two people will speak the same exact words. You cannot compare man to Jesus Christ who is God. Jesus spoke in His human nature to the Father, Paul spoke in his human nature to Christ who is God. You and I can never speak the exact words. Yet we both can preach the gospel Truth, but go about it in a different way, because we are all different people. It's ok that you do not believe in Paul or Peter or anyone else other then Christ. Of course that is what you want to do, but do not expect for others to do what you do, as I said before we are all different.
---Mark_V. on 6/11/12


aka, you are twisting the words of Jesus to your own advantage as does Paul. Jesus very clearly says that there is no greater commandemnt then these (two) while Paul says that the law is fulfilled by loving your neighbour. Not the same thing at all.

John 15:12 "This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you". Jesus does NOT say that keeping his commandemnt fulfills the law.

Please notice what Jesus says first in John 15:10 "If you keep my commandments (plural) you shall abide in my love, even as I have KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS (plural) and abide in His love."
---barb on 6/11/12




sis barb, you said,
" Jesus enforces His Father's words. Paul does not. John 10:1-7, John 7:16-19"

Jesus did what the Father told Him. God also spoke with Paul, Jesus appearence to Paul and Ananias was in His divinity. He is God. You believe God spoke to Jesus in His humanity but don't believe He spoke to Paul in His divinity. And that only the word of God spoken before Christ was risen is valid.

"But the Lord said to him (Ananias) "Go for He is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name sake" (Acts 9:15.16).
Like Jesus, Paul was submissive to God.
---Mark_V. on 6/11/12


Michael e, if you look at the old testament and then look at the book of Revelation you will see that the tribes have changed. I'm just mentioning this because it is something to ponder.

I will belong in whichever tribe God puts me into if I overcome as Jesus teaches in Rev. 2:17, Rev. 2:26, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 3:12, Rev. 3:21 and Rev. 21:7-8.
---barb on 6/10/12


barb,

but jesus says the second is LIKE the first. If you do one faithfully, you do two and vice versa.

but, since you want continue to to play with scripture...

//Paul...says in verse 8 that he who loves another has fulfilled the law.//

so does Jesus, John 15:12 "This is my commandment [singular], That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Aren't Jesus words good enough for you?
---aka on 6/10/12


Earl, it looks as if someone has already started a continuation.
---Catholicus on 6/10/12


aka, Mark 12:31, please read verses 29 and 30 and then 31 where Jesus quotes the first commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength and then He quotes the commandment to love our neighbour as ourself and says that there are no other commandments greater than these (two).

Rom 13:9, Paul leaves out the first commandment and says in verse 8 that he who loves another has fulfilled the law. Then he lists the last 6 commandments.

Jesus does NOT say in Mark 12:31 that the law is fulfulled by loving your neighbour and that is the difference.

---barb on 6/10/12




////Why didn't Jesus recruit Paul along with the twelve chosen ones//
12 tribes - 12 apostles
Which tribe do you belong to Barb?
---michael_e on 6/10/12


Rev. 3:20-22. Of course you will not look up any of those verses because you are probably quite content there in the dark.
---barb on 6/10/12

no need for quotes this time. that is the barb that i know.

if the light to me is considered darkness to you, i am content with the dark.

how is Paul speaking in opposition to Rev. 3:20-22? ironically, the words of the revelation of jesus from gen to rev are quite adequate to me compared to your cherry picking, which is not sufficient for you.

since you won't answer my questions of yesterday instead of the normal deflection of judaizers, look at this and show me the difference. Mar 12:31 and Rom 13:9
---aka on 6/10/12


Cathalicous,
My reply to your 1st half -Paul was not a fraud.


Your 2nd half -Christianity will be extremely different if Paul did not insert his gospel-bible reads("my gospel")into Jesus's framework.
The reply count is over 60 today-sunday but if you will restart this post as a continuation Ill respond to it.
---earl on 6/10/12


aka, God gave His Son the truth and sent Him into the world to teach it to us. Why aren't the words and teachings of Jesus Christ enough for you?

Jesus has called us out of the darkness into the Light/Truth. John 3:19-21, John 12:35-36.

Jesus' death and ressurrection has opened the door into the Kingdom but if you cannot find the door it will do you no good. Rev. 3:20-22. Of course you will not look up any of those verses because you are probably quite content there in the dark.
---barb on 6/10/12


No one here questions Luke ,the only non Hebrew bible writer,why? Same reason they accept Paul (he was obviously Paul's convert)
Being a Greek Gentile,surely was familiar with Greco-Roman mythology.
Concocting the story of the rich man and Lazarus (no other bible writer supports this scenario) is too close to the mythological "Hades" to take seriously!
It appears to me that Luke himself was the "Good Samaritan", being a doctor could tend to the wounds of the injured man,having money was able to pay for the man's aid and himself being non Jewish! IMHO.

Does "bible study" simply mean reading and accepting every word???
---1st_cliff on 6/9/12


---barb on 6/9/12
Which tribe do you belong to?
---michael_e on 6/9/12


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"barb",

Mohammed, Ellen White, Joseph Smith and the others were called by a god. this god was just not the God of the Bible.

now, since for 2000 years, we have assumed that the Bible is the Word of God. Since we are deceived what are the scriptures that you consider authentic?

Our forefathers evidently have failed the task of "canonship" and the Holy Spirit left us in the dark for 2000 years.

Can you please enlighten us? Other than claims of modern day Paul detractors, can you please lead us to the forefathers who knew the truth?
---aka on 6/9/12


Mark V, Jesus taught His disciples and prayed for all of us who would believe His teachings thru their word. What else do we need? John 17:17-26.

Of course we should also live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and the Law and the Prophets contain His words. Jesus enforces His Father's words. Paul does not. John 10:1-7, John 7:16-19.
---barb on 6/9/12


sis barb, you are suggesting by saying that with the 12 apostles Jesus came down from heaven and to everyone else who wasn't there present at the time does not count. Don't you realize how many times God Himself spoke to people in the Old Testament? And how many times the Holy Spirit indwelled others? You suggest that does not oount. You suggest only what Jesus spoke while here counts gospel and everything else does not. Do you know why Paul was not present? He was killing Christians. You also suggest that (Acts 9:5) and (Acts 9:17) when Paul received the Holy Spirit is false and that we should not believe it, because Jesus had risen. If I am wrong on what I read from you please correct me. What Scott, James a few others said is true.
---Mark_V. on 6/9/12


Michael e, did Paul follow Jesus in the regeneration? No, he was busy persecuting His followers. Paul is a self proclaimed apostle. There is not one word from Jesus Christ to validate him.

Paul and his follower Luke are the only two people in the entire bible that call Paul an apostle. In Rev. 2:2 a group of people in Ephesus put Paul to the test and found him false. In 1st Cor. 15:32 Paul tells us that he fought with beasts in Ephesus. Coincidence?
---barb on 6/9/12


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i am not one of these who accuse anyone of using or lending another's name, but barb's demeanor and writing style has changed immensely.
---aka on 6/8/12


//Why didn't Jesus recruit Paul along with the twelve chosen ones//
12 tribes - 12 apostles
Matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
One Body = one Apostle
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
---michael_e on 6/8/12


Michael e, Paul says not of men neither by man and yet The Son of Man, Jesus taught his disciples Himself. He did not send a bright light, a voice or a spirit to them but came down from Heaven and taught them Himself with the words that His Father gave Him. Why didn't Jesus recruit Paul along with the twelve chosen ones?

Read 2nd Cor. 11 and maybe you will see what I just saw in verses 4 & 5. Who is preaching another gospel other than the one that Paul is teaching and why does Paul mention the "very chiefest of apostles" right after saying that? Is Paul's gospel different than the gospel that Jesus Christ taught His disciples? As for me, I will go with the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus taught.

---barb on 6/8/12


Atetuni, Can you show me where Jesus called Paul? Don't tell me what Paul says about his being called of Jesus but tell me instead where Jesus Christ says anything at all about Paul.

Mohammed says that he was called of God as does Joseph Smith, Ellen White and many many others. Do you believe anyone who claims apostleship or do you put them to the test to find out the truth for yourself?
---barb on 6/8/12


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One of the most controversial writers of scripture is Paul. Since he wrote about information kept secret he has been pushed aside, doubted, and even labeled the Antichrist as "scholars" regularly fail to rightly divide.

Yet, Paul continually emphasized his authority from Jesus Christ to present the gospel of grace in contrast to the law system of the Old and New Covenants. One of the presentations of his ministry certification is listed in Gal 1 and 2.
Not of men, neither by man
---michael_e on 6/8/12


Rod4Him, thanks for that verse. It is exactly what I was talking about. I wonder who was trying to teach the followers of Jesus untruths? John is telling them to abide in Jesus because they have been annointed by Him in truth.

Keep reading and in 1st John 27-28 they are again told to abide in Jesus and that He is righteous and that if they are righteousness they will be born of Him. Same as John 3:5. We have been told that it is impossible to be righteous but here we see again that is not true.


---barb on 6/8/12


Mark V, no I didn't say that Paul said it. He said he had to fill up that which Christ left undone. Not the same as carrying my cross and following Jesus at all.
---barb on 6/8/12


barb: Are you in place of God to query Him for calling Paul and using him? Know that (1)the 11 were chosen from a bigger number (2) God/Jesus is still calling people till date & using them in His ministry of reconciliation.(3) You cannot remove the name of Paul from those God has blessed, filled and used no matter your opinion.
---Adetunji on 6/8/12


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I John 2:[27]As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you, but as His anointing teaches you about all things,..
Phil..Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude, and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you,

A Western/Greek mindset makes a mistake thinking seeking God is a doctrine rather than Who He is and who we are.
---Rod4Him on 6/8/12


Does the Holy Spirit lead us into ALL truth or not?\\
---barb on 6/7/12
yes. The HS is God just like the Father and the Son. If HS were not God then He would not be equal with God in the trinity. If the HS leads us into false doctrine then he is not good and not a Helper making Jesus a liar. Which is impossible
JamesL - the reason we have false doctrine is because we do not listen to the HS all the time and live in a broken world. Even Peter fell into a false doctrine for a brief time as he was learning about the Judizars in Galatians CH2.
---Scott1 on 6/8/12


James, read John 17:17 and then read John 17:20 where Jesus prayed for us who believe on the Him thru the disciples words.

The Holy Spirit will not teach one person one thing and then teach another person something else. There is only one truth so we would indeed have the same doctrines if it is really the Holy Spirit teaching us.

John 17:21 "That they all might be one, as you are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me."
---barb on 6/8/12


Does the Holy Spirit lead us into ALL truth or not?\\
---barb on 6/7/12

! ! NO ! !

Jesus told that to His disciples who were with Him

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit....He will teach *you* all things, and bring to *your* remembrance all the I said to *you*

John 16:13
....He will guide *you* into all truth...and He will disclose to *you* what is to come.


If the Holy Spirit were to guide US into all truth, then we would all have the same doctrine.

He guided the APOSTLES into all truth. We read about that truth in the bible
---James_L on 6/8/12


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it might be really tough for most, but

barb is right about Colossians 1:24

Paul spoke of "filling up what is lacking" in Christ's afflictions.

And this was taught by Christ Himself in Matthew 10.

CONTEXT:
Col 1:12 He has qualified us to share in the inheritance

1:26 The inheritance is a mystery which was hidden before.

1:27 a hope of "glory"

When ??

Col 1:22 When Jesus is revealed (Col 3:4) and presents us before the Father (Matt 10:32-33)

Col 1:23 "IF" we continue (Matt 10:22)

Matt 10:38 Jesus' suffering does not negate your responsibility to pick up your own cross and follow (suffer with) Him (Col 1:24)
---James_L on 6/7/12


Brother Paul has come far in his walk with Jesus. He started out as a prideful Pharisee devoid of the Holy Spirit, whom persecuted the Christians and thought he was doing God's will in doing so, and then afterward he himself became a Christian Saint and realized that he was being deceived by Satan in persecuting the Church before his conversion. And the Church today is very grateful to Saint Paul for giving us a large part of the New Testament Holy Scriptures.
---Eloy on 6/8/12


barb, I read (Col. 1:21-25) and no where did Paul state that Christ suffering was not enough. That is just not there at all. "And fillup in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ for the sake of the body which is the Church" Paul was experiencing the persecution intended for Christ. In spit of His death on the cross, Christ's enemies had not gotten their fill of inflictiong injury on Him, So they turned their hatred on those who preached the gospel (John 15:18,24: 16:1-3). it was in that sense that Paul filled up what was lacking in Christ's afflictions (2 Cor. 1:5: Gal. 6:17). You make is seemed as if Paul is saying Christ sacrifice was not enough it needed Paul suffering. Just not true.
---Mark_V. on 6/7/12


He gave them the Holy Spirit. What more did they need? John 15:26-27.
---barb on 6/7/12
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him],

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according

the very same signs and wonders followed paul. The Miracles, raising the dead, and so on where also worked by Paul as the other 11
---francis on 6/7/12


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Jim, yes that is what I am saying. I agree with the answer that 1st cliff gave 100 percent.
---barb on 6/7/12


Jim,"All scripture is given by inspiration" is referring to the OT.
As Paul admonished timothy "Study to show yourself approved" Study what?? The OT of course NT was not yet written!
When and how was Paul appointed to be God's spokesman?? (He simply assumed it!)
"Hey folks listen up! God is speaking through me!"
Doesn't it sound like a dozen Televangelists???? OR
Elmer Gantry,Billy Sunday, Ellen G White,Charles Taze Russel,Amy Semple McPherson,
Mary Baker Eddy etc...etc..
---1st_cliff on 6/7/12


Francis, I guess we will continue to disagree as I believe that Paul definitely stated that he was rejoicing in filling up that which was left undone in the suffering of Christ. Do you still want evidence that Paul differs from the teachings of Jesus?

You are right that Jesus did not go into all nations. He sent His eleven disciples to the nations in Matt 28 and in John 20:21-23 He gave them the Holy Spirit. What more did they need? John 15:26-27.
---barb on 6/7/12


barb**** Are you saying that where it says "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" that this is not true???
---JIM on 6/7/12


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Scott, Jesus Christ left nothing undone, not one tiny little thing. Paul is the one who made that statement, NOT me so you tell me what Paul is talking about.

You are so very correct that most of the people following Jesus just wanted to see the miracles and eat the food. We are so blessed that He left us His Words. If we did not have the eyewitness testimonies we would not have a clue about who is the wolf and who is the sheep.
---barb on 6/7/12


Thanks to all for your responses. It's been interesting!
---Catholicus on 6/7/12


---barb on 6/7/12

COl 1 23-25
Paul rejoices in his suffering for the church, which is like christ suffering, knowing that the church will continue to suffer

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

He is not saying that christ suffering is not complete, only that those who serve christ will also suffer, there is more sffering coming to the church

If you want to know what christ left behind: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Christ did not go into all nations
---francis on 6/7/12


Michael e, you can bet that the disciples of Jesus knew exactly what He was talking about after His Resurrection. They are the ones who wrote these words down for the rest of us and the ones who testify to the Truth for all eternity. Matt 20:28, Matt 26:28-29, Matt 28:18-20, John 8:25-29, John 12:23-36, John 14:28-31, 1st John 1:1-10, 1st John 2:24-29. I hope that you will take the time to read these verses.
---barb on 6/7/12


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Rod4Him, thankyou for your answer. I wonder though if it really matters when Matthew's gospel was written because we have his (Mattew's) testimony in Matt 28 that after His resurrection Jesus sent His disciples to the Nations (Gentiles). This was before Paul came on the scene. Would Jesus send His apostles out without the complete message of salvation?


---barb on 6/7/12


barb
What was it that Jesus Christ left undone?

spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. Christ at most only spoke to 20,000 people and most of them only wanted physical food and a physical king.
---Scott1 on 6/7/12


Jesus did not preach his redemptive work on the cross for salvation during his ministry on earth. Instead, Jesus taught the gospel of the coming kingdom (Mark 1:14-15).

This gospel consisted of repentance from sin, doing the commandments, and seeking first the kingdom (Matt 5:19, 6:33). Although these ideas are good and Biblical ideas, none of them include faith in the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.
---michael_e on 6/7/12


Francis, we could start with Col. 1: 23-25 and compare it to John 19:30 and Isaiah 53. Why did Paul say that that Christ's sufferings were not enough and that he, Paul had to suffer in the flesh to fill up what was left behind (undone) for the church? What was it that Jesus Christ left undone?
---barb on 6/7/12


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After the fall of Israel in 70 to 71 AD the Christian church had to be out of Israel to survive not just a separate part of Judaism.
John became a pastor in Ephesus which is a church Paul started on his missionary journeys.
Without Paul we would not have servant aspect of Christianity. Throughout the gospels, the disciples (in the gospels) are self-centered but Paul claimed himself as a bondservant which in OT language of a servant who renounced freedom to stay a slave to a master by their choice.
---Scott1 on 6/7/12


Cathlicus, that is just sad. Without Paul we would still have the eyewitness testimony of the disiples and we would still have the law and the prophets and we would still have the book of Revelation. Most importantly, The Holy Spirit would still feed the hungry and guide the thristy to the Water of Life. Matt 24:35.
---barb on 6/7/12


//Were they told to wait for Paul's message of grace?//

Matthew, including the other gospels were probably written after Paul. In addition, Luke wrote Luke and Acts and traveled with Paul. So if one throws out Paul, they also need to disregard Luke and Acts.

It needs to be remembered that Paul went specifically to the gentiles. Jesus was primarily speaking to the Jews. Therefore gentiles seem to have different obligations than Jews. However, it is possible to read Paul as endeavering to bring the gentiles to Jesus, who was a Jew, while trying to bridge a gap (Acts 15) between gentile paganism and a life with a Jewish Jesus. Gentiles knew very little of Judaism, if any.

I'll caught flak, but we run out of space too soon.
---Rod4Him on 6/7/12


As 1st cliff pointed out the Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus so what happened? Why did the Holy Spirit need Paul's help? Does the Holy Spirit lead us into ALL truth or not? Were the eleven disciples sent out to teach and baptize all nations per Jesus' words in Matt 28:19-20 or not? Were they told to wait for Paul's message of grace? Yes or no? If no then why not?
---barb on 6/7/12


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And if Paul's writings are false teaching, then Peter was indeed duped - because he endorsed them.

You're internally conflicted
---James_L on 6/5/12


Amen to that!
---LindaH on 6/7/12


1st cliff: You wrote, "When Jesus sent the disciples out saying ...they had NO NT writings!". YES, the 1st group sent-out are not apt in writings{fishermen mostly}. Kindly appreciate the Wisdom of God in choosing a lawyer in Apostle Paul to give us new books of the Holy Bible!!! God is the best arranger of good things.
---Adetunji on 6/7/12


---barb on 6/6/12

Now you have my full attention.

Show me where paul has led people away from the truth

Keep in mind, that once you [post text from paul which appear to be falsehoods, I will post the coresponding OT text.

O.K. Lets go
---francis on 6/6/12


So all we have so far is an alleged conversation between Jesus and Saul of Tarsus that no one heard ,understandably nor did they see Christ!
13 letters that became "scripture" from a Pharisee!
Swallowing camels???
Why not include the Book of Mormon ?Joseph Smith believed in the soul's immortality (Alma 42.9) "The soul can never die"
Or the writings of EG White?
Or Bahaullah etc,etc..Ad Infinitum ad Nausium!
---1st_cliff on 6/6/12


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Barb, we are all free to believe what makes sense to us. I'm sure you are welcome to stay around here, just as I am, even though I'm not an not an Evangelical Protestant, as many here are. But I must say that without Paul, Jesus would undoubtedly have become quite forgotten by humanity.
---Catholicus on 6/6/12


O.k. I get the message. The majority of you have your feet firmly planted in Paul's message of grace thru the vision that he received so I am guessing that you are not interested in letting any light shine thru that darkness.

However, I will still post here just on the off chance that there might be someone out there searching for truth. 1st John 3:4-11. John 3:18-21.
---barb on 6/6/12


Michael, You are right on target with everything you had to say about The Writings of The Apostle Paul.
---David_Ransbottom on 6/6/12


When Jesus sent the disciples out saying "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations..." Mat 28.18 they had NO NT writings!
Question, Was the NT "absolutely" necessary to preach salvation?Jesus said "I will send the "Comforter" (Holy Spirit) Was Paul the substitute comforter?
Certainly the Gospels are extremely useful in expounding the life and sayings of Christ,fortifying the prophecies of the OT.and that's why they were written!
cont...
---1st_cliff on 6/6/12


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Pauls letters set his position as the Grace-giver
(Eph 3:1-3)

By personal revelation from Christ, Paul was given new revelation about Gods purpose in the dispensation of grace. (Rom 15:15,16).

Recognizing Paul's place is not exalting the man Paul. It honors his God-given position as our apostle.

During His earthly ministry, Jesus nor the twelve ministered to the Gentiles as such. Christ came to minister to the nation Israel. Rom. 15:8

By this we know Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record Christs earthly ministry to the nation Israel exclusively. He confirmed promises made to their patriarchs. He proclaimed the good news that they will be fulfilled.
---michael_e on 6/6/12


cont..Along comes Paul and sets up a whole new "religion" establishing "churches" in Asia Minor with rules and regulations about Elders,Deacons,tongues etc..a forerunner of the hodgepodge of "religious" denominations we have today!
Then his nonsense of "in the body,out of the body,absent from the body" lie of the immortality of the soul! Pharisees as a sect believed in the soul's immortality, not taught by Christ!
Ah,but his glib tongued,charismatic style swayed them all including Peter.
I doubt that he deliberately set out to decieve anyone,just expounded his own personal concept like many Pastors today!
---1st_cliff on 6/6/12


//The followers of Jesus called themselves Followers of the Way.//


source? i do not read it in the four gospels. now, we have to discredit books in the bible and believe something that is not in the any of "the followers" writings..
---aka on 6/5/12


\\I never said that Paul overthrew the Way or that Peter was deceived by Paul...I also said that the whole Christian world has been deceived by Paul.\\
---barb

huh ??

If "Christian" teachings prevailed, then The Way was indeed overthrown.

"The whole Christian world" are who told us the gospels are true. So if you can't trust their assessment of Paul's writings, then you should also reject their testimony about Matthew's and John's gospels.

Where was The Way all this time? Sitting idle while the gates of hell prevailed over the gospel?

And if Paul's writings are false teaching, then Peter was indeed duped - because he endorsed them.

You're internally conflicted
---James_L on 6/5/12


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I would be interested to hear their views on what they think Christianity should be like without his writings.
---Catholicus on 6/4/12

Christianity was doing just fine before paul. Without Paul it would have continued just fine.

There is nothing new in any of pauls writings. Paul simple takes from the OT and expounds on it

Christianity is spread by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul was a willing, and usefull vessel ofr the Holy Spirit
---francis on 6/5/12


\\The eyewitness disciples (and Luke was not an eyewitness) quote the words of Jesus Christ\\

But how do you know that Jesus' followers were called Followers of the Way?

FROM LUKE (Acts 9:2)

Come on, now. Do you trust the man or not? Make up your mind.

Do any of the gospels call Jesus' disciples "Followers of the Way" ??

Did Peter call anyone a Follower of the Way?

NO. He called them (including himself)
CHRISTIAN

1Peter 4:16
If anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, BUT IS TO GLORIFY GOD IN THIS NAME.

Why didn't Peter write "if anyone suffers as a Christian, he should return to The Way" ???

Really, barb ???
---James_L on 6/6/12


James L, I never said that Paul overthrew the Way or that Peter was deceived by Paul. I'm sorry if I have confused you. I did say that there is credible evidence that Peter did not write 1st, 2nd and 3rd Peter. I also said that the whole Christian world has been deceived by Paul. I did NOT say that The Way was deceived.

Jesus' disciples do not mention Paul (except for that one verse in 2nd Peter) so I certainly do not think that they followed Paul and abandoned The Way. Is there any mention of Paul in the four gospels or in John's epistle? Do you see evidence that the disciples were teaching what Paul taught? The eyewitness disciples (and Luke was not an eyewitness) quote the words of Jesus Christ, not Paul.
---barb on 6/5/12


James L, you made your point beautifully. Thank you.
---Catholicus on 6/5/12


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Cathlicus, no I have never read that book. I have heard of it and it is on my list of books to read along with many others.
---barb on 6/5/12


Barb, I take it you have read the book Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Maccoby.
---Catholicus on 6/5/12


\\If you really want to know what it would be like without the writings of Paul then read the words of Jesus Christ as recorded for us by His eyewitness disciples.\\
---barb on 6/5/12

I have a hard time following your logic.

According to you, Paul deceived the entire church, including those (such as Peter) who were witnesses to Jesus Himself.

But how long did it take for Paul to overthrow The Way?

Paul's writings were extant before most of the gospels were written.

Now if Paul had already deceived Jesus' witnesses before they wrote their gospels, then why on earth would you count any of the New Testament as accurate?

For real, girl. If I thought that someone had been duped, I wouldn't believe them.
---James_L on 6/5/12


No Paul, no Christians. Christianity is Paul's invention. The followers of Jesus called themselves Followers of the Way.

If you really want to know what it would be like without the writings of Paul then read the words of Jesus Christ as recorded for us by His eyewitness disciples.
---barb on 6/5/12


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Without Paul Christianity would have died as just a minor subset of Judaism. The original apostils were just sitting around Jerusalem taking care of the Christian community there and not moving the gospel out of Jerusalem. Christ mission would have been a dismal failure without Paul, Christ did not pick educated people who were self-starters to be his apostils and that was the crux of the problem. Paul was formally trained in theology and Jewish scripture and he was definitely a self-started first at persecuting Christians and after is conversion moving the gospel out of Palestine into the Greco-Roman world. Everyone should give thanks to that small band of Christians in little Antioch who sent Paul out on the first missionary journey.
---Blogger9211 on 6/5/12


I have been finding Paul's writings and example to be a match with all that Jesus did and said. So . . . since we could find the same love meaning and theological meaning in the Gospels . . . even if there were no writings by Paul, still we could find the same things in the Gospels (c: But Jesus uses people, He shares with us and includes us in what He is doing > even we, ourselves, are His living message of His love > "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men, clearly you are an epistle of Christ" (in 2 Corinthians 3:2-3). God bless us to grow in this (c: instead of being decoyed with people's twisted arguing.
---willie_c: on 6/5/12


I am looking forward to some interesting comments.
---Catholicus on 6/5/12


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