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Scaried Of Prophets Apostles

Paul writes in Ephesians 4:11 the five ministries to bring the church to maturity. Today's church denies two of these ministries thus hampering the maturity of christians. Why do today's denominational churches and christians fear the ministries of the prophet and the apostle?

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Gordon, the passage is talking about false prophets. And you know that no one can proof they are a prophet of God unless what they teach is in the Word of God. And if it is in the Word of God then they are not prophets giving new revelation not found in Scripture. You had the nerve, and not ashame, to say a prophet said there would be zombies in the last days, that demons would enter dead people. You believed it. You were deceived. Nothing of the kind is written in Scripture. So you see, you could not discern the Truth from a lie. The passage I gave you is a warning Gordon, so that the elect never are deceived, and you were.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12


markv, You ask of me, "How does a church allow the operation of the Holy Spirit?" Answer: "Through worshipping Jesus, and asking for his Spirit to come and minister to his people."
---Eloy on 6/21/12


YES, it is the responsibility of the Church, esp. the Pastors, to seek GOD's Face, to see if HE has any Prophetic Messages for the Church
---Gordon on 6/20/12

But your understanding of God's Word is faulty.

The gifts are for the edification of the BOC. If they are not operating in the BOC, then the gift is in error.

There is no "voice crying in the wilderness" manifestation anymore. That day has ended. The BOC is the chosen vessel of God today and any "Prophet" that needs to be found by the BOC is in error. The gift must be operating within the BOC otherwise, how is it edifying the BOC?
---Mark_Eaton on 6/21/12


MarkV, Read...my...response...CAREFULLY, Mark V, Okay? The Lord YAHUSHUA, in MARK 13, was talking about FALSE prophets, not TRUE Prophets of GOD (as per EPHESIANS 4:11-12 and I COR. 14). He was warning against listening to FALSE prophets (and of FALSE christs)!
---Gordon on 6/21/12


Gordon, you said,

"Seeking out for any Prophetic Messages from the LORD GOD Almighty IS, in part, seeking out GOD."

Gordon, you are looking for miracles, wonders, dreams and prophetic messages outside the word of God. From leaders in the churches.
"Then if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ" or, Look, He is there" do not believe it. For false christs and false Prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed, see, I have told you all things beforehand" (Mark 13:21-23).
You have a warning from the Word of God and yet you are deceiving yourself by looking for them. The elect are not, they have the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12




How can the Holy Spirit and fear abide in the same body?
---Steveng on 6/18/12

i don't understand it myself...ask God.

Rom 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
---aka on 6/20/12


Mark Eaton, Seeking out for any Prophetic Messages from the LORD GOD Almighty IS, in part, seeking out GOD. And, YES, it is the responsibility of the Church, esp. the Pastors, to seek GOD's Face, to see if HE has any Prophetic Messages for the Church. Esp. during these End Times. The Prophets were placed within the Church to help MINISTER to the Church. This is GOD's Written Word, not mine! :-)
---Gordon on 6/20/12


Gordon, when you make comments about the Church you better make sure you define what Church you are going to condemn.
There is the visible Church which consist of "wheat and tare's" that Jesus talked about, and there is the body of Christ, the Spiritual Church which consist of "all genuine believers."
The visible church will always have failures with sin because there is many tares are in it, and many times they are running it. In the Spiritual Church, Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church and He runs that Church. The Spirit of God is working always, and no one stops God. What you want is for the visible Church to be completely Spiritual but that is impossible.
---Mark_V. on 6/20/12


The existence of Satan's false prophets are no excuse for Christians to shirk their responsibility of seeking out GOD's true Prophets for any Prophetic Messages for today.
---Gordon on 6/19/12

Where do you read of this "responsibility" to believers?

Where does the Scriputure tell believers that we need to seek out anyone at all, except God, Jesus, and the HS?

You have an agenda and are seeking to further that agenda.

You are seeking to add to the list of laws, Pharisee.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


MarkV, What I am saying is your understanding is lacking, in that, a Church most certainly can hinder the Holy Spirit from operating in the Church for a number of reasons. Rampant sin, lack of sincerity to follow GOD and HIS Holy Spirit, worldliness, false doctrines. There are a number of Churches (many in America) that are DEAD. The Spirit had left them long ago. They are only religious graveyards. People have to choose to allow the Holy Spirit to work in them. The Holy Spirit only goes where the Spirit is welcomed.
---Gordon on 6/20/12




"Quench not the Spirit....."
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit....."
"Despise not prophesyings....."

If the Holy Spirit accomplished everything He pleased apart from the response of the believer, there would be no need for the admonishments above. You defend Paul in one blog but systematically tear down everything he says in all others.
---blogger8980 on 6/20/12


Gordon, your answer tells me I don't have to ask you if you are born of the Spirit.
Have you read one passage that says that man after being born of the Spirit somehow stopped being born of the Spirit, and the Spirit of Christ suddenly leaves you?
So you say to me that If I believe I am alive to Christ I'm brain dead. Great. That tells me you have no faith in God whatsoever.
"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us in God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hears as a guarantee" (2 Cor.1:21). You have no guarantee Gordon, and you call me brain dead.
---Mark_V. on 6/20/12


MarkV, The false doctrine of OSAS has made you spiritually brain-dead. The Church has to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in order for things to get done. The Church is not a puppet. A love relationship requires both parties to CHOOSE and to be willing to love each other. One party cannot "make" or even "force" the other to love them. It would not be real love. Likewise, GOD does not "force" people to do this-or-that. They have to be willing, and then, GOD enables them by HIS Spirit. Your beliefs are wimpy, MarkV. Pues, por toda manera, Ud. sigue asi. QUE TRISTEZA
---Gordon on 6/19/12


Eloy, you said,

"
There are some churches that still allow the operation of the Holy Spirit within them"


How does a church allow the operation of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit operates in the lives of believers within the Church. Has no one to answer to. The Holy Spirit is God. How can anyone stop God from operating in a persons life?
What you might be trying to say is that Pentacostal Churches are more spiritualize then other denominations, or other churches. Do you know why the Pentacostal Churches started? Because the people were bored just listening to the Word of God. They needed some action to get motivated. So all the hopla started.
---Mark_V. on 6/19/12


Rob, I will tell you what I told another here. You get before GOD and ask HIM to reveal to you who HIS true Apostles (and Prophets) of today are. Is it not important enough for you to do that? The existence of Satan's false prophets are no excuse for Christians to shirk their responsibility of seeking out GOD's true Prophets for any Prophetic Messages for today. Because they are out there. And, it's wrong to go planting seeds of doubt into other people's minds about what GOD clearly says regarding the existence of HIS true modern-day Apostles and Prophets in EPHESIANS 4.
---Gordon on 6/19/12


Gordon, you failed to mention for a person to be an Apostle of Christ a person must have been alive from the time Christ began His Ministry, to the time Christ went up to Heaven. You failed to mention the eleven cast lots to determine who would replace Judas as an Apostle.

You failed to mention there are FALSE APOSTLES of Satan, masquerading as being Apostles of Christ??

Gordon, if a person was selling you a car, and said it was in excellent condition and like new, would you believe them without putting the car to the test?

Why is it those who claim to be Apostles or Prophets, run or say touch not God's anointed, when someone puts them to the test?

How do you know if they are God,s anointed unless they are tested?
---Rob on 6/19/12


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Mark, you will be celebrating the death of the last two prophets spiken of by John in Revelation because of your disbelief.
---Steveng on 6/18/12

I cannot find one version of the Bible that calls the two people in Revelation 11:3 "Prophets". Yet you continue to do so. Why?

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

Let me try to help.

If a person has the GIFT of prophecy, they can prophesy yet not be called a Prophet. Prophesy can be predicting and it can be proclaiming. These witnesses are proclaiming.

I also asked for your understanding of Luke 11:49-50.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12


And, as I said to you, Rob. Almighty GOD has set up modern-day Apostles within the Church, just as HE did with the Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers and Pastors. The Question presented on this Blog is whether modern-day Apostles and Prophets exist in the Church. And, GOD's Holy Written Word says YES! in EPHESIANS 4. It's true because GOD's Word says it is. I take HIM at HIS Word, as it should be.
---Gordon on 6/19/12


Steven, the last dillusion of the end times is when people start hearing a lot of voices, that are not from the Word of God, but from proclaim prophets, like those prophets you saw on your road ride through Washington and Oregon while on your bike ride, sitting next to the road who could speak without talking. Those voices you heard and told us. So what you are saying is we have to depend on you to tell us who the prophets are by name so that we don't make a mistake. Great. Your sounding more like a prophet to me. Go ahead and say it, you have already condemned the gathering of believers the Churches of Christ, what's stopping you from telling us you are a prophet and the names of the future prophets? Eloy once said he was one, how about you?
---Mark_V. on 6/18/12


There are some churches that still allow the operation of the Holy Spirit within them: these are Pentecostal and Charasmatic Christian churches. The conservative types may be reluctant to let God's Spirit move in their churches, but the freer churches gladly welcome the power and presence of the Holy Spirit within their assemblies, when the Spirit of Jesus is welcomed all manner of good happens to his people: visitngs and visions, heavenly tongues, interpretations, prophecies, miracles, and all manner of healings, et cetera.
---Eloy on 6/18/12


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aka: "focus and do on what you talk about if that is what the Lord wants. i have a different calling despite my fears and unbelief."

How can the Holy Spirit and fear abide in the same body?
---Steveng on 6/18/12


Gordon, you are CORRECT concerning the names of the Apostles.

You are PARTIALY CORRECT concerning the criteria a person must meet to be an Apostle of Christ.

You are PARTIALY CORRECT concerning what are the three types of Apostles.
---Rob on 6/18/12


Mark, you are afraid of prophets today because you cannot tell the true prophets from the false.

Throughout the entire bible, prophesies were given twice: once centuries before and the second time just before it happens. The last generation is coming to a close and many men and women are prophesying as prophesied. Not only what has already been written, but in more detail.

So, how do you tell a true prophet from the false? First, by their fruits. Second, they prophesy two by two or three - as commanded in scripture.

Mark, you will be celebrating the death of the last two prophets spiken of by John in Revelation because of your disbelief.
---Steveng on 6/18/12


The great delusion of the end times is when christians who say they are christians, but are not. These christians are wrongly taught by the worldly denominational churches. Their entire congregations are hearers only. And they are taught only what the top hierarchy wants them to learn - bits here and bit there. These mainline churches spend the entire month of December to teach about Christ's birth - rarely about what is important.

To truly know the difference between true apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelist and pastors is to lay a strong foundation in the written word - and actively apply what you have learned. You may then be chosen by God to do his works.
---Steveng on 6/18/12


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MarkV, Why do you insist on planting seeds of doubt in other people's heads? You suck up to people and polish them shiny-bright to flatter them so they'll trust you, and then, you admonish them that they're believing lies if they believe that there are true modern holy Prophets of GOD. You are deceived Mark V, and you wish to drag other people down to wallow with you in your filthy, muddy blindness. You will be held accountable by Almighty GOD, because you were shown the Truth, you rejected it and are trying to inadvertedly mislead others!
---Gordon on 6/18/12


MarkV, Go back to my earlier comments and re-read them. Did I specify that you would hear GOD's "VOICE"? No. It's possible, but, it could be an impression that He would lay on your heart. It could be something on-line that you read. And, I also said that the answer would NOT necessarily be RIGHT AWAY. It may require hours or days before you get His answer, by whatever method He chooses to respond to you. But, you have to let Him know that you are waiting for His answer, in Faith. And, that you are trusting Him to answer you. (lol) You are making this way too freakin' complicated, Mark. But, you LIE by telling people that GOD has no modern-day Prophets, when you're just being Faithless about the issue yourself!
---Gordon on 6/18/12


Rob, An Apostle is one who is called by the LORD and has witnessed the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) in His state of Resurrection. Apostles: Simon Peter, James and John (the sons of Zebedee and of thunder), Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Judas Iscariot (Betrayer), Matthias (in Judas' stead), Paul (unto the Gentiles). GOD has modern Apostles today, Rob, just as I pointed out in EPHESIANS 4:11-12. That is GOD's Written Word, AT FACE VALUE. There is no time limitation given on the Office of the Apostleship. There are modern day people who have seen YAHUSHUA in His Resurrected state, just as Saul of Tarsus did.
---Gordon on 6/18/12


Scott 1, I have loved your answers since I first became aware of your name on line. But I have to disagree with you big time that there are prophets today. The answers you gave that a believer can do to others are all found already in the Word of God, it is no new revelation. Bible history tells us there was many prophets, and many false prophets. Most their names are given. We know because we have proof, the Bible. But after the Bible closed, there is no way anyone can proof a person is a prophet. By who's criteria will you go by? If there was going to be certain prophets after the Bible close, God would have told us who they were otherwise you would be guessing. And let me say, there is many so call prophets out there.
---Mark_V. on 6/18/12


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Ok...I give. Who are the prophets of today?
---Rod4Him on 6/18/12

I will bite. Prophets of today are christians who with the power of the Holy Spirit pronouce words of encouragement or warning to people though some use of HS gifting. Typically these pronoucements are to individuals on an individual basis. It also comes and goes on a needed basis. It is not flashy or big like Elijha on mount caramel but more pray oriented, conversational, and one on one.
---Scott1 on 6/18/12


Yes, the church was in existence before the scripture canon was completed. However, no 2 churches were alike as there were disputes even among all the early church fathers.

---lee1538 on 6/15/12

How did the ECF settled the disputes? Did they do as the Protestants, every time their is a disptute you rush out and join a new church or did they call on an authoritative council? A council when it speaks is speaking on behalf of the HS ( Acts 15:28) A council that has authority to bind all believers to hold its decisions (MT 16:19..18:18). We know there is no such thing in Protestantism, every day there is a new one coming up teaching against another using the Bible only mind you!
---Ruben on 6/18/12


Hey Gordon, did you ever check the scriptures to learn what is the criteria for a person to be an Apostle of Christ?

Did you check scripture and learn what were the names of the 14 Apostles?

Did you check scripture to learn what were the three types of Apostles?
---Rob on 6/18/12


Gordaon, I can discern the Written Word of God very well, but voices I cannot. The Spirit brings light to the written word and that is How God speaks to me. I don't go around listening to voices. When God wants to reveal something to me it is through His written word. So no, I don't hear any voices. Many have heard many voices but when God speaks to His children it is through His written word. Sorry I disappoint you. Mohammah heard voices, and he thought they were from God but they were from satan. So God does not speak to me to tell me there are prophets today because there is none today, so how can He tells me?
---Mark_V. on 6/18/12


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Ok...I give. Who are the prophets of today?
---Rod4Him on 6/18/12


Mark V, Good luck!
---Gordon on 6/18/12


I have a question for all those who believe there can be new Apostles and Prophets.

Luke 11:49-50 "Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they will kill and persecute, that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation'".

If the blood of ALL prophets would be required of "this generation", I would suggest that also to mean that ALL Prophets and Apostles ended with "this generation". Otherwise, God would be judging "this generation" on Apostles and Prophets they have never seen.

How do you read the Luke 11 passage?
---Mark_Eaton on 6/18/12


Gordon, I can discern the word of God very well, but not any voices. I have not heard the voice of God calling me to do anything. I know when I'm moved to do certain things, but voices are not there. God speaks to me through His written Word. The Spirit brings light to God's written Word to all those who believe. Now that is Truth, because Christ is the Truth and He testifies of the Father.
---Mark_V. on 6/18/12


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Blogger8980 EXACTLY!----MARK V, The latest question you asked me was ALREADY ANSWERED in my previous comment! PRAY to the LORD and really seek HIM about who HIS true modern Prophets are! Why did you not DO this in the first place?! Are you afraid of what you might find after all? Are you afraid that you'll be proved wrong? And, this is not an issue of "who's right and who's wrong", it's about Biblical TRUTH! IF you really care about GOD's Holy Word (including EPHESIANS 4:11-12 and I COR.14) you will take the time to pray to GOD about it! I have warned you before that believing one false doctrine (OSAS) opens you up to believe other falsehoods and lies, but, you didn't want to believe it. Get off your lazy spiritual arse and PRAY!
---Gordon on 6/18/12


"What if the voice you hear is from the enemy who wants to deceive you and he agrees with you there is prophets when there is none, what then? And how will you know its the voice of God you are hearing? Many like Mohammah thought it was the voice of God." MarkV

If you cannot discern the voice of God concerning His use of prophets in the five-fold ministry, you cannot discern the voice of God concerning any other matter found in the scriptures, including your conviction that God only saves select people and dooms the rest. Seems like your "ability" to hear God correctly is more a matter of convenience than it is truth.
---blogger8980 on 6/18/12


MarkV, I just told you that if you fear that the Devil will try to deceive you, then pray that the Devil flee in the Name and by the Blood of JESUS (YAHUSHUA) and then, trust the LORD to deliver HIS answer to you, and HE will! Just have Faith, Mark. That's what it's all about.
---Gordon on 6/17/12


steveng, i was responding to that particular statement that you made. your focus is on apostleship and mine is on servitude.

i have seen those that call themselves apostles and prophets in "spirit-filled churches" and talk, and talk, and talk...about the same thing you are talking about... the different "ministries".

i have also seen those that work in the soup kitchen saying very little about anything. , but i do see sharing of the fruit of the Spirit.

focus and do on what you talk about if that is what the Lord wants. i have a different calling despite my fears and unbelief.
---aka on 6/17/12


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aka: "many of us are disciples despite our fear and unbelief."

But how many turn into apostles? When is it time to go from disciple into an apostle? And why doesn't the world see more acts of an apostle?

The fear and unbelief comes when a christian who claims to be an apostles is confronted with a small crippled child and is unable to heal that child because of the fear that they cannot do it or that the healing fails.

That fear is taught by denominational churches. That fear is wrongly taught that aplostles and prophets are no longer needed by denominational churches.

Another growing fear is that of being sued for healing.
---Steveng on 6/17/12


Gordon, you answered with a lot of things but you did not provide any scripture to support you answer, and your answer is not what is the criteria one must meet to be an Apostle of Christ as written in scripture.

Someone has already given the scripture, and to give you a hint, it is in Acts Chapter One.

Gordon, if you study scripture, you will learn the names of the 14 people who were Apostles, and there were three different types of Apostles.
---Rob on 6/17/12


Gordon, you said,

"You asked (me) 'How do you know which one to believe?' You get before GOD, in Prayer, and in sincerity, with a real desire for an answer, you ask GOD to reveal to you who are HIS true modern Prophets of today"

What if the voice you hear is from the enemy who wants to deceive you and he agrees with you there is prophets when there is none, what then? And how will you know its the voice of God you are hearing? Many like Mohammah thought it was the voice of God.
Then you say,

"And, if you fear Satan deceiving you with a false answer, "

What if you don't fear Satan deceiving you? then what. When satan deceives someone, they don't even know they are being deceived.
---Mark_V. on 6/17/12


//Many of you can become disciples if you let go of your fear and unbelief.// steveng

many of us are disciples despite our fear and unbelief.
---aka on 6/16/12


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Many of you can become disciples if you let go of your fear and unbelief. You, too, can perform greater miracles than Jesus If you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you.

Many, if not all of you, have stopped at water baptism and never went on to actually receive the Holy Spirit.

Today's denominational churches only turn their congregation into hearers only. It is these miracles that the apostles perform, the doers, that prove that God does exist.

My prayer to you is to open your hearts, search the scriptures, and know the truth about the minitries of the apostles and prophets and how much they are needed in today's world, but are sorely missing. For the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few.
---Steveng on 6/16/12


You poor souls.

Two things you must remember: one the last two prophets as revealed by John in Revelation you will not believe and will mock because of your non-belief that prophets are no olonger and two, you divide the five ministries into two, two no longer needed and three needed. All five can have true and false ministries. How will you tell the difference between the true ministries and the false ministries?
---Steveng on 6/16/12


The acts of the apostles from the time after the ascention of Jesus to the end of the world:

They founded new churches and strengthened older ones, They

Were filled with the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:4
Preached the word of God, Acts 2:14:36
Healed the sick, Acts 3:1-8
Pronounced God's judgement, Acts 5:11,12
Ordained deacons, Acts 6: 1-8
Laid their haned for others to receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 8: 14-17
Raised the dead, Acts 9:36-43
Sent by the Holy Spirit, Acts 13
Confirmed other disciples and ordained elders, Acts 14:21-23
Settled doctrinal disputes, Acts 15:1:21
Cast out demons, Acts 16:18
Taught and sent forth other disciples into the world, Acts 19:22
---Steveng on 6/16/12


I just answered your question. But, go ahead and tell me the answer you're looking for. And, let's see how it lines up with what I just said.
---Gordon on 6/16/12


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Gordon, you are dodging my question.

I asked according to SCRIPTURE what is the CRITERIA a person must meet to be an Apostle of Christ.

I would also like to ask according to SCRIPTURE how many Apostles were there, and according to SCRIPTURE how many types of Apostles were there?
---Rob on 6/16/12


MarkV, You asked (me) 'How do you know which one to believe?' You get before GOD, in Prayer, and in sincerity, with a real desire for an answer, you ask GOD to reveal to you who are HIS true modern Prophets of today. And, you trust HIM to answer you. And, it will not necessarily be an immediate answer, but, one that you continue to trust that HE will send to you. And, if you fear Satan deceiving you with a false answer, then, you also pray that, in the Name of JESUS (YAHUSHUA) that the deceptive devils must flee and that you will only receive true answers from Almighty GOD. And, that's it! If you trust HIM, HE will reveal them to you. But, you have to believe, and have Faith.
---Gordon on 6/16/12


\\It is YOUR "belief" that GOD has no modern Prophets today. \\

And it's YOUR "belief" that God does, Gordon.

|| It is your belief that GOD "has no need" of Prophets today.||

And you actually BELIEVE that God needs anything or anyone, and that He is not sufficient unto Himself?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/16/12


Rob, First, What is an Apostle? The Scriptures say, via the Concordance's Greek word #652 "apostolos" 'an ambassador of the Gospel'. Also, 'a messenger, he that is sent'. AND, the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary, which is a very Biblically oriented Dictionary gives as a Definition of an "Apostle": 'A Disciple of CHRIST commissioned to preach the Gospel.' One qualified would be one who firstly is called by the LORD Himself. And, then, one who has bonded himself to YAHUSHUA. One who follows His Commands, and willingly goes where he is sent.
---Gordon on 6/16/12


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MarkV, To state it plainly, you are believing a lie, and you are,in turn, spewing out the same lies to others. It is YOUR "belief" that GOD has no modern Prophets today. It is your belief that GOD "has no need" of Prophets today. It's probably what you have been taught to believe by other so-called Bible Scholars and Pastors, etc. But, the Bible itself gives absolutely NO time limit on the Office of the Prophets and Apostles. They are listed with the Pastors and Teachers, and have the same time period as they. You list also FALSE PROPHETS as "validation" to reject GOD's true Prophets of today. WRONG!
---Gordon on 6/16/12


Gordon, according to what is written in scripture, what is the criteria a person must meet to be an Apostle of Christ?
---Rob on 6/15/12


Gordon, I didn't expect you to jump up and down with joy and declair I'm right. I expected you to respond as you did.
You said:
"But, the Bible plainly states in EPHESIANS 4:11-12 ..that GOD placed Prophets and Apostles within the Church (which existed since Pentecost!) and they are listed in EPHESIANS 4, right there ALONGSIDE "Pastors","
All the gifts were needed when the Church was formed. Not all are need now. Many special gifts were given at Pentacost, there was no New Testament. How can you tell who is a prophet? Eloy, Mohammah, E.G. White, they proclaimed to be prophets. How do you know which one to believe? The one that meets your criteria?
---Mark_V. on 6/15/12


Concerning the Prophets:
Mt11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Lu16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Heb1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

If a person is able to read and comprehend english. The verses I just noted stated that the prophents are finished speaking. Any prophets after John such as Elen G White and Joseph Smith, not to metion Benny Hinn are false.
---trey on 6/15/12


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MarkV, WAKE-UP! If you're going to comment on something, study about it, first, to show yourself approved! YAHUSHUA is the King of Prophets to be sure. But, the Bible plainly states in EPHESIANS 4:11-12 which I keep bringing up, that GOD placed Prophets and Apostles within the Church (which existed since Pentecost!) and they are listed in EPHESIANS 4, right there ALONGSIDE "Pastors", "Teachers" and "Evangelists"---the ones that you have NO PROBLEM believing exist in the church today!) So, what gives?! I gave you BIBLE, and you blatantly oppose it!
---Gordon on 6/15/12


Cluny //I forgot to mention, lee, that the Church was in full fledged functioning existence before ONE WORD of the NT was written. The NT reflects the Church. The Church does not conform herself to it, as she decided what should be in it to start with.

Yes, the church was in existence before the scripture canon was completed. However, no 2 churches were alike as there were disputes even among all the early church fathers.

But can we say that they reflected Orthodox Church teachings in all ways?

If you answered NO, you got the right answer.

Like your sister church in Rome, their beliefs and ritualistic theologies evolved.
---lee1538 on 6/15/12


//What is scriptural is the old dispute that has divided the church for ever......\\

Wrong, Peter.

It only divides Church from non-church.
----

the non-church is composed of those that have only a Christianized philosophy that is only a creation of themselves. However, the true church is that body of genuine believers in whom the Spirit of God indwelts Romans 8:9.

It is obvious which church Cluny supports - the one made by man, or that one made by God's Spirit.
---lee1538 on 6/15/12


\\Cluny, Lee: What is scriptural is the old dispute that has divided the church for ever......\\

Wrong, Peter.

It only divides Church from non-church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/12


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Mark E, that was done very well. I also agree with you. Everything Gordon said about prophets is already written in Scripture. No one can give new revelation from God. For no one can proof it is from God. Steven on another blog spoke a lot against those who believe as we do. He went on and on about the ministries of the Spirit. What he forgets is the context and the historical facts happening at the time when there was no New Testament. Also forgets that all was fulfilled in Christ who is our Prophet, Priest and King. And since we are indwelled by the Spirit, He is our only Prophet. Scripture is closed. We are told already what will be.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/12


Chris9396, You are right, "being led down the wrong path, into deception" IS another major reason that Pastors and Laymen alike are afraid of Prophets, etc. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT,(and I say this not to you, I direct it those who are 'afraid' of Prophets, etc.) that the fact that there are false prophets a/o the fear of 'false prophecies' is NO EXCUSE not to seek GOD's Face about Prophets of today and what GOD's modern Prophecies are. This especially applies to Pastors who are supposed to be helping to lead GOD's Flocks in every given Church assembly! GOD placed HIS modern Prophets and Apostles in the Church to help minister to the Church. EPHESIANS 4:11-12 and I COR. 14.
---Gordon on 6/15/12


Jed: "I don't think Christians are afraid of prophets and apostles, but rather they are afraid of being led down the wrong road by a false prophet"
I agree, especially if one realizes they've been decieved previously. Trusting the LORD as leader, teacher, protector/defender, overcomer, our all in all, rids one of that fear.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love(Jesus) casteth out fear
---chria9396 on 6/14/12


Mark Eaton, I want to say you made my day and I THANK YOU!!!

It is good to know there are some people who know what scripture has to say concernIng Apostles and Prophets.

It is amazing what people can learn if we can only get them to take the needed time to study.

Mark Eaton, GOD BLESS YOU!!!
---Rob on 6/14/12


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I don't think Christians are afraid of prophets and apostles, but rather they are afraid of being led down the wrong road by a false prophet. Not everyone who claims or even truly believes they are a prophet or apostle really is. In fact, I would say that most of them aren't. I'm not just talking about the false prophets that scam people. I'm talking about folks who genuinely believe they are given prophetic words and visions from God, but they are not. I don't think we should just accept everything anyone says just because they say God told them. God has given us the Bible to be able to discern what is from God and what is not, and also common sense, which I think alot of people ignore in hopes to "hear a message from God".
---Jed on 6/14/12


Cluny, Lee: What is scriptural is the old dispute that has divided the church for ever......

Could the two of you, for the sake of peace, at least hold to the idea of the renaissance of 'innocent until proven guilty' - i.e. that a view should be viewed as 'scriptural' unless the other person can prove it is not. It is not really what the NT says- there there also need to first be two other witnesses and then be brought to the whole church.....

But here is not the place to argue about this. The best place is for the two of you to go to your personal mail site, and then to your email site, and discuss the question as brothers in Christ - at least until proven that one of proven not to be - which, online, is virtually impossible!
---Peter on 6/14/12


I forgot to mention, lee, that the Church was in full fledged functioning existence before ONE WORD of the NT was written. The NT reflects the Church. The Church does not conform herself to it, as she decided what should be in it to start with.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/14/12


\\There is nothing in any of the more traditional denominations that would keep their beliefs totally scriptural.
---lee1538 on 6/14/12\\

Except for the fact that our beliefs ARE totally scripture.

And unlike the denominational churches, we use the TOTAL SCRIPTURE as found in the WHOLE BIBLE, as opposed to a Bible with a big HOLE in it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/14/12


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I will answer.

The list in Eph 4 is considered the "offices" and the list in Rom 12 is considered the "gifts".

The office of Apostle was defined in Acts 1 by the Apostles themselves. No one today fits the description:

Acts 1:21-21 "...men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us".

Prophets are a little different, because it is on both lists. The office of Prophet is not needed today. The job of a prophet was to foretell (predict) and "forth-tell" (thus sayeth the Lord). Unless you believe the Bible is incomplete, both jobs are completed with the Bible.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/14/12


The epistles of Paul and Peter and James and John are ministry of the apostles, and I don't know of any Bible trusting person who is afraid of these writings that are ministry of the apostles.

And Paul, for one example, never is called "Apostle Paul" by the Holy Spirit, in Acts or elsewhere. Nor is anyone called "Prophet" whoever. Because they are our examples, of humility, not having ways to make a show of being over others (1 Peter 5:3). But now ones are afraid to follow their apostolic example, I don't know why.
---willie_c: on 6/14/12


Steveng, That's what I've been wanting to know for that past 6 years! My belief is that, Prophets in particular, usually have very TOUGH and HARD TO SWALLOW Messages from GOD that make the Church very "uncomfortable". Messages of REPENTANCE. Messages of the need to walk in GOD's Love, Truth, Holiness and Forgiveness of others. And, Messages of Judgment on the rebellious ones of the Church. And, Judgments on the World. Plus other things. The religious community is especially hateful and vindictive towards GOD's Prophets (and Apostles), though you'd think it'd not be so.
---Gordon on 6/14/12


//But as you pointed out, these are the denominational churches. And as I've pointed out, Orthodoxy is pre-denominational.

Somewhat true but only from a historical perspective.

Orthodoxy eventually morphed into a denomination with its own governoring literature liken to other denominations.

There is nothing in any of the more traditional denominations that would keep their beliefs totally scriptural.
---lee1538 on 6/14/12


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There is no need to be in fear.

But people need to know and also understand, in the world we live in today if anyone claims to be an Apostle, they are a FALSE APOSTLE, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

If any one claims to be a Prophet, they probably are a FALSE PROPHET, 2 Peter Chapter Two.
---Rob on 6/14/12


Steveng (and Cluny): each church has its own weakness. The more 'traditional' churches (including the Orthodox) is rather weaker in the Apostles and Evangelists.

Many of the newer churches, while they have teachers, argue a lot about things between denominations so much that little gets learned except what is particular to that denomination (that, I think, is why we have so many arguments here!).

And Prophets, I suspect, there will be few in any case, and anyway one can only be called to be a Prophet....
---Peter on 6/14/12


Speak for your own experience.

In the Orthodox Church, as from the beginning, the ministry of the Apostle is carried on by Bishops, and that of Prophets by the gerons or staretz.

But as you pointed out, these are the denominational churches. And as I've pointed out, Orthodoxy is pre-denominational.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/14/12


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