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Angelic Founder Visitations

How can we trust those religions whose founders spoke of 'angelic visitations' such as is found in Mormonism or Adventism.

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 ---lee1538 on 6/14/12
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We don't because He is not Michael, the Bible never calls Jesus Michael so how can we show He is when there is no proof?
---Mark_V. on 6/28/12
I do not believe that Michael is God. There is nothing in scripture that tells us so.
---CraigA on 6/27/12

Did you not see the seven texts I posted showing that the titles, prophecies, and job discriptions of michael apply ONLY to Jesus?
---francis on 6/28/12


"No one has shown any proof that Michael the Arch angel is Not jesus."

No one has ever shown any proof that Rosie O'Donnel is not Beyonce. But I think the OBVIOUS differences go without saying.
---Jed on 6/28/12


francis, you say,

"No one has shown any proof that Michael the Arch angel is Not jesus."

We don't because He is not Michael, the Bible never calls Jesus Michael so how can we show He is when there is no proof?
We cannot show you are saved because it is not written in the Bible that you are. That is a very dumb question don't you think? Stop speculating.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/12


Seems like we have a bunch of sheep worshipers amongst us!


---jerry6593 on 6/28/12


What I believe, Francis, is that Jesus is God come in the flesh! He was not simply an angel/messenger. He IS our Creator manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

I do not believe that Michael is God. There is nothing in scripture that tells us so.
---CraigA on 6/27/12




---CraigA on 6/27/12

Do you believe that The ANGEL of the Lord / God is this same Jesus who created?

If you do not believe that the Angel of The Lord is jesus then O.K.

But if you believe that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus, and that Angels are messengers sent from God, then which angel / messenger could possibly be God's chief messenger/ Angel?

Here is a hint: cherubim and seraphim are created being which serve as angels/ messenger

Jesus is the creator of the cherubim and seraphim, the Son of God, who also served as an angel/ Messenger

When People say that Jesus is not an angel, what they really mean is that Jesus is neither a cherub nor one of the seraphim
---francis on 6/27/12


Heres my problem:

Jesus Christ is said in scripture to be GOD himself. He is also said to be the creator of all things.

I see no connection between "Michael the Archangel" and the creation of all things in either testament. If Jesus is equated with being God himself and Michael is not , to believe Jesus IS Michael is assuming Jesus is not God but instead Gods chief messenger. Very dangerous risk to take. Is it worth committing blasphemy over? Jesus said that we must believe that he is I AM or we will die in our sins.
---CraigA on 6/27/12


Those who insist (contrary to Scripture) that Jesus could not go by the name "Michael" unless He was actually a created angel must logically also insist that He is a furry little four-footed creature since He is also called "The Lamb of God". Ridiculous!

---jerry6593 on 6/27/12


But he is call the "Lamb of God " but is not call Michael in scripture!
---Ruben on 6/27/12


No one has shown any proof that Michael the Arch angel is Not jesus. I have given these text to examine:
Daniel 10:21 matches Matthew 24:4-24 ( knowledge and revelation of the future)

Daniel 12:1 matches Revelation 19:11 ( fights for God's people in time of trouble)

Daniel 4:35 matches Joshua 5:14 matches Revelation 12:7 ( leader of the army of God)

1 Thess 4:16 matches Daniel 12:1 and 2 matches John 5:28 -29 ( voice which raises the dead)

all I hear is that jesus is not an angel ( created being) and no one has yet to say that Jesus is THE ANGEL OF GOD ( not a created being)

Does it not occur to anyone that the ANGEL of the lord Jesus is also Michael Chief Angel and he is not a created being?
---francis on 6/27/12


An angel is not God, for God created the angels. "But to which of the angels said God at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool? You are my beloved Son, in you I am well pleased. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forward to minister for them who will be heirs of salvation?" Hb.1:13+ Lk.3:22+ Hb.1:14.
---Eloy on 6/27/12




Jerry, your mind is very corrupt. You said,

"Those who insist (contrary to Scripture) that Jesus could not go by the name "Michael" unless He was actually a created angel"

We do not said Jesus could not go by that name, we say, "He never did go by that name."
There is a difference there. He could have gone by the name of Mark if God had told us He was, but He didn't. Michael sounds like a good name, it must have been since it was given to Michael the arch angel. Your name could have been Juan Armando Sanchez, but it was Jerry or whatever name your parents gave you.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


francis, that is a lame answer you gave Mark E. That passage in Jude 9 has a context. Michael had to fight with satan to do God's bidding, as he did on another occasion in (Dan. 10:13) Satan wanted to use the body of Moses as an Idol, and object of worship, so God sent Michael, however to be certain it was buied.
Rather than personally cursing such a powerful angel as Satan, Michael deffered to the ultimate, sovereign power of God following the example of the Angel of the Lord in (Zech. 3:2). This is the supreme illustration of how Christians are to deal with Satan. Believers are not to address them, but rather to seek the Lord's inteventing power against him and his demons.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


For the same reason the name Jesus (when referring to the son of God) does not appear in the OT
---francis on 6/27/12

I must be dense. What you posted made no sense to me at all.

If I was Judas and my half-brother was Jesus and He revealed Himself to be the Messiah, the Son of God, there are no bigger secrets than that. If Jesus was also named Michael it would not be a bigger secret than being the Son of God. But you are implying that Jesus kept it a secret from a half-brother who was with Him his whole life.

Geesh.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/27/12


However, what is never discussed is why Jude (Judas, perhaps the half-brother of Jesus!) never once connected Michael and Jesus together, because Jude mentions both. Why is that?
---Mark_Eaton on 6/27/12

For the same reason the name Jesus (when referring to the son of God) does not appear in the OT
---francis on 6/27/12


Those who insist (contrary to Scripture) that Jesus could not go by the name "Michael" unless He was actually a created angel ... Ridiculous!
---jerry6593 on 6/27/12

Part of the "proof" I have read is based upon this verse

Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you!"

However, what is never discussed is why Jude (Judas, perhaps the half-brother of Jesus!) never once connected Michael and Jesus together, because Jude mentions both. Why is that?

You want Jesus to be Michael so badly you ignore rational thought to make it so.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/27/12


Jerry, why do you suggest that Jesus name is Michael? Do you have one passage to to effect? Again, you will produce nothing as before, you know why? Because no where are we told His name is Michael. Nada, Zero. Someone here insisted that SDA's don't believe he is Michael the arch-angel, but you and francis contradict that statement.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


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I must admit, that is a good point, jerry.
---CraigA on 6/27/12


Those who insist (contrary to Scripture) that Jesus could not go by the name "Michael" unless He was actually a created angel must logically also insist that He is a furry little four-footed creature since He is also called "The Lamb of God". Ridiculous!


---jerry6593 on 6/27/12


francis, all the names you gave were made useless when you said he was Michael the Arch angel. With one statement you stripped Jesus Christ of His deity. For nowhere are we told He is an Arch angel or Michael the angel. That is all in your mind after twisting many passages. Arch angels including any angelic angel are not infinite, they are created. Only our Triune God is eternal and infinite.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


francis 2: Christ in His divinity created all things in the heaven and in the earth. "For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers, or rulers or authorities, all things were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:16).

And He created all His angels, "...Praise Him, all His angels, Praise Him all His hosts... (Ps. 148:1-4).
"Let them praise the name of the Lord For He commanded and they were created" (v.5).
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


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Francis, you posted 2 lies in your list:
Truth #1. Jesus is NO angel of the Lord. and
Truth #2. Jesus is NOT Michael the arch angel.

Jesus created the angels, and
Jesus created Michael the arch angel.
---Eloy on 6/26/12


who do you say that Jesus Christ is?"
---Mark_V. on 6/26/12
Almighty
Alpha and Omega
Angel of The Lord
Anointed One
Author of Eternal Salvation
Bread of Life
Bridegroom
Bright and Morning Star
Creator of All Things
Deliverer
Emmanuel
God of Abraham
Good Shepherd
Great I AM
Great God
Head of Every Man
Head of the Body
Head of the Church
Holy One of Israel
I AM
Image of God
Jehovah
King of Kings
Lamb of God
Lord God of Hosts
Mediator
Messiah
Michaal the Arch angel
Prince of Peace
Prophet
Redeemer of the World
Savior of the World
Son of the Most High God
---francis on 6/26/12


---Mark_V. on 6/26/12

I am not being evasive.

Do you want the answer or not?

I just need some clarification from you, and you will get the answer.

I want to be 100% clear on what you are saying so that I may give an accurate responce.

To answer this question, I need some clarification from you.

Are you saying that the day on which Jesus kept sabbath, and the day on which SDA keep sabbath ( saturday) are different days.

How is the day which Jesus kept sabbath, and the day that SDA keep sabbath ( SATURDAY) different

Do not be so difficult. PLEASE give me the information so that I may answer you.

Once I get this cleared up, i will answer you
---francis on 5/28/12
---francis on 6/26/12


I read what Michael Scheifler wrote and saw the way he tried to put passages together. Just a lot of twisting of passages to indicate something not there in the first place.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/12

I too have read this and wow, what an incredible string of spaghetti!!! Never have I read so many connections that were based upon supposition and conjecture.

If I compare Michael Scheifler's proof to the book "Case for Christ", nothing comes close to standing up. Would never come close to standing up in a court of law.

I have to ask the question "Why is this important to those who expound this theory". My supposition is that they want to dethrone Jesus, to take away His deity, His God-ship.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/26/12


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francis, as before you did not answer the question. I ask you to find one passage where God commands men that Saturday is the Sabbath, and you went around and around for a long time and never answered, Now I asked you "Who do you say that Jesus Christ is?" and you did not answer but want me to answer another one of your questions. Instead of writing down the material of Michael Scheiflers commentaries, "who do you say that Jesus Christ is?"
---Mark_V. on 6/26/12


francis, you wanted to match ever so much but no where are we told that Jesus Christ is Michael the created angel.
---Mark_V. on 6/25/12

where are we told that The ANGEL OF THE LORD IS JESUS
---francis on 6/25/12


francis, you wanted to match ever so much but no where are we told that Jesus Christ is Michael the created angel. Like you do the rest of the law, you pick what you think matches when it never matches and strip the very nature of the Divine without fear of God. Jesus Christ is God, and He is to be worshipped. You must be worshipping Michael if you believe he is Christ. So you do the same as the Jehovah Witnessess, you do not believe Jesus Christ is God.
So, "Who do you say that He is?" That will tell you if you are saved or not.
---Mark_V. on 6/25/12


---Mark_V. on 6/24/12

If you paid close attention or even casually read these text I gave you would see that they ALL included MIchael, and one even that both Michael the Arch Angel, and Jesus did. Every group is about the same doctrine and every group is aboutr Michael and Jesus


Daniel 10:21 matches Matthew 24:4-24 ( knowledge and revelation of the future)

Daniel 12:1 matches Revelation 19:11 ( fights for God's people in time of trouble)

Daniel 4:35 matches Joshua 5:14 matches Revelation 12:7 ( leader of the army of God)

1 Thess 4:16 matches Daniel 12:1 and 2 matches John 5:28 -29 ( voice which raises the dead)

try them see what your results concerning michael and jesus will be
---francis on 6/25/12


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francis, God never said pick here a little and there a little and make up something not there at all. That is what you are doing. You pick a passage where the context is speaking about something completely different and use another with the context different then the first and you combine the two together and say, and say, "see, it refers to the tree of life, or it refers to Michael the angel."
No where are we told Jesus is Michael and no where are we told that any created angel is to be worship. I read what Michael Scheifler wrote and saw the way he tried to put passages together. Just a lot of twisting of passages to indicate something not there in the first place.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/12


micha9344 on 6/23/12

the host is everyone,
Are you aware that you have given no scriptures in support of your stance on the ARCH ANGEL

You have said many things

Can I ask you to compare scripture to scripture and say who Michael is

start with these:
Daniel 10:21 matches Matthew 24:4-24 ( knowledge and revelation of the future)

Daniel 12:1 matches Revelation 19:11 ( fights for God's people in time of trouble)

Daniel 4:35 matches Joshua 5:14 matches Revelation 12:7 ( leader of the army of God)

1 Thess 4:16 matches Daniel 12:1 and 2 matches John 5:28 -29 ( voice which raises the dead)

then add your own
---francis on 6/23/12


you don't. For all religions lead to hell. You should trust Christ only.
---Eloy on 6/23/12


---Mark_V. on 6/23/12
The reason why many people do not understand that Michael the Arch Angel is Jesus is because they do not know how to study doctrine, many of them study context rather than doctrine

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little:

When you see me using a passage in Daniel about Michael and the RESURRECTION, a passage in John about JESUS and the RESURRECTION, a passage in 1 Thess about the Lord, Arch Angel, and the RESURRECTION it is God's way here a little, there a little, same precept upon precapt: THE RESURRECTION
---francis on 6/23/12


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"...is theer more than the host?"-francis on 6/23/12
Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 1:20-22
Lord of lords, King of kings, Lord of hosts-this includes Michael
Archangel- arch:high or chief-angel:messenger
archangel- chief messenger
Michael is not the head of the church, nor the Lord over anything, but is the top (or one of the top) angels.
My analogy stands only to those that are not blind.
---micha9344 on 6/23/12


francis, you try to mix passages the very same way that Michael Scheifler does in his commentary. All a lot of twisting passages to dethrone the Lord Jesus Christ, and no other reason. The very same thing the Jehovah Witnesses have been doing since their existence.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/12


Michael only commands the host, he is not commander of all.

Michael is not in charge of it all and is a created angel.
---micha9344 on 6/23/12

WOW this is a bad analogy

the name ARCH ANGEL means that He is in charge of ALL

and only Jesus is in charge of all the angels

what does it mean that he is not in command of all but only the HOST, is theer more than the host?
---francis on 6/23/12


Yes jerry, but Michael only commands the host, he is not commander of all.
Compare President to Joint Chief of Staff or Secretary of Defence.
Michael is not in charge of it all and is a created angel.
---micha9344 on 6/23/12


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Lee: "Adventists no longer believe that Jesus was the incarnate archangel Michael."

Actually Lee, we never did believe that Jesus was a created angel. He is the Supreme Commander of the angels (archangel) and sometimes goes by the name "Michael". He also goes by such names a Lamb, Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, etc. Just because he is called a lamb doesn't mean He is one. Neither is He an angel just because he commands them. Even our American President is called the Commander-in-Chief of the military, but he certainly is not a soldier.


---jerry6593 on 6/23/12


Here is a prophecy concerning Michael:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,

Here is the funfilment of the prophecy:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
---francis on 6/22/12


Jerry is correct in that Adventists no longer believe that Jesus was the incarnate archangel Michael.

From Wikipedia -

Seventh-day Adventists have traditionally identified Michael the archangel of Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7 as Jesus Christ which is hinted at in Thessalonians 4:16 , so also for "Michael the great prince" of Daniel 12:1. There is a common perception that Adventists are relegating Jesus to something less than divine or less than God.[citation needed] That is no longer valid since Seventh-day Adventism is now expressly Trinitarian.
---lee1538 on 6/22/12


Sorry Mark_Eaton, I gave them on another blog

Daniel 10:21 matches Matthew 24:4-24 ( knowledge and revelation of the future)

Daniel 12:1 matches Revelation 19:11 ( fights for God's people in time of trouble)

Daniel 4:35 matches Joshua 5:14 matches Revelation 12:7 ( leader of the army of God)

1 Thess 4:16 matches Daniel 12:1 and 2 matches John 5:28 -29 ( voice which raises the dead)

But what i encourage everyone to do is this:
Look at every prophecy, every job title, every task performed by Michael, and you will see that every prophecy about Michael is performed by Jesus only, every Tithe held by Michael is held by Jesus only, every Job discription of Michael can ony be performed by Jesus/ God
---francis on 6/22/12


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I have given MANY texts that show that whatever is prophecies of Michael, what ever position that Michael hold is also fulfilled by Jesus or help by Jesus respectively
---francis on 6/21/12

Wrong. You have given suppositions and theories. There are only 6 verses in the whole Bible that discusses Michael or archangels and none of them say anything about Jesus being Michael.

I have read the published theories on this and nothing at all convinces me or most non-SDA and non-JW people that Jesus was or is Michael.

Prove to us this part of your theory: that the angel of the Lord mentioned in the OT is definitively and only Michael.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/21/12


francis, Jesus is not like Michael the angel, Jesus Christ is God. Michael is a created angelic being,
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12

1: In the NT the word God is mainly reserved for the father, it may be the same in the NT also

That is why michael means who is like God ( the father)
Jesus is God, but he is not the father, he is LIKE the father

Now here is the kicker, what texts says that Michael was a created being?

I have given MANY texts that show that whatever is prophecies of Michael, what ever position that Michael hold is also fulfilled by Jesus or help by Jesus respectively
---francis on 6/21/12


francis, Jesus is not like Michael the angel, Jesus Christ is God. Michael is a created angelic being, Hello? Why do you want to complicate things? Is it not enough that you don't speak about Christ and what He is doing in your life and only want to talk about the law and how great a job you are doing following the law? Is that not enough destruction of the hope that is in Christ?
Jesus is the Mediator between God and man in His manifestations, and His incarnation. No one, not even you with your works can stand before God without Christ. Not even Moses. He stood before the Lord Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12


Cluny:

As for Jesus being "Archangel incarnate, and NOT God Himself", that is a most disgusting lie. SDA's teach that Jesus is indeed "fully God" and was NOT A CREATED BEING.

Who are you following when you make up such preposterous lies?

Like him, you are an "accuser of the brethren".


---jerry6593 on 6/21/12


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Francis, Cluny is wrong yet He knows that Jesus Christ is God and He manifested Himself as The Angel of the Jehovah. He was not of their kind, created angels, but God Himself.
The Second Person of the Trinity is the visible God of the New Testament. Neither the Father nor the Spirit is characteristically revealed in bodily and visible form. While the Fathers voice is heard from heaven, and the Holy Spirit is seen descending in the form of a dove, Christ, the second Person, is the full manifestation of God in visible form. Christ in the Old Testament is the Angel of the Jehovah. When the Angel of Jehovah spoke to Hagar (Gen. 16:7-13) He was identified as Jehovah (v.13) again in the sacrifice of Isaac (Gen. 22:15-18) etc.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12


There are no other angels BUT created ones.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/12


Mark_V. is cluny correct?
---francis on 6/20/12


\\francis, you know very well that Micha was referring to created angels, not God. If He was talking about God he would have mentioned that the Lord did manifest Himself as an angel of the Lord but He was not a created angel.\\

There are no other angels BUT created ones.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/12


---Mark_V. on 6/20/12

I never assume what one is trying to say. That is why is asked him about the angel of the lord

So If the angel of the lord is God he can also have a name, just as Jesus has many names including Jehovah, Emanual, wonderful he is also more appropriately refered to as the one who is like God ( the father) or Micahel

John 14:9 Jesus saith..h e that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

See jesus is like God ( MICHAEL)
---francis on 6/20/12


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francis, you know very well that Micha was referring to created angels, not God. If He was talking about God he would have mentioned that the Lord did manifest Himself as an angel of the Lord but He was not a created angel. Don't try to confuse the Lord Jesus Christ who is God, with angelic angels.
---Mark_V. on 6/20/12


---micha9344 on 6/19/12

Is that a way of saying that you forgot that THE ANGEL OF THE LORD is NOT a created being YET he is called an angel?
---francis on 6/20/12


Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
I've tried the latter, now I choose the former...
---micha9344 on 6/19/12


angel, created
God, creator
I don't think Jesus can be both,
---Micha93444 on 6/19/12

Minor flaw in your otherwise good reasonng.

What about THE ANGEL OF THE LORD/ GOD? Is he creased or is he God / Jesus?
---francis on 6/19/12


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angel, created
God, creator
I don't think Jesus can be both, even though He stepped into creation as a man.
Heb 1:4-8 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
---Micha93444 on 6/19/12


Cluny: "I've seen in SDA literature where you teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel incarnate, and NOT God Himself"

No you have not! You have seen anti-SDA literature that may claim this, but you cannot produce any official SDA quotes of those words.

SDA's do indeed teach that Michael is another name for Jesus as He is the leader of the angels. But that is nothing new. Even your beloved "church fathers" taught the same thing.

As for Jesus being "Archangel incarnate, and NOT God Himself", that is a most disgusting lie. SDA's teach that Jesus is indeed "fully God" and was NOT A CREATED BEING.

Who are you following when you make up such preposterous lies?
---jerry6593 on 6/19/12


\\Cluny: "But the SDA does NOT have the testimony of JEsus Christ because you all don't believe in the REAL one."

They say ignorance is bliss. You must be a happy fellow. \\

I've seen in SDA literature where you teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel incarnate, and NOT God Himself. Therefore, you do not believe in the real Jesus Christ and cannot give testimony to Him.

\\Rev 19:10 .... the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. \\

And "spirit of prophecy" does NOT mean the Holy Spirit, as the term means among Christians, but the deluded demonic ravings of Ellen G. White.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/17/12


Cluny: "But the SDA does NOT have the testimony of JEsus Christ because you all don't believe in the REAL one."

They say ignorance is bliss. You must be a happy fellow.

Rev 19:10 .... the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This, the SDA have. We believe in the REAL Jesus - the Creator of heaven and earth and Author of the Ten Commandments.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

You believe in a man-made god created by pseudo-orthodox, pagan-leaning gnostics long after the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. Real Jesus? Hardly!


---jerry6593 on 6/17/12


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\\Revelation 12:17 the remnant: hich keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. \\

But the SDA does NOT have the testimony of JEsus Christ because you all don't believe in the REAL one.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/16/12


Different people, different covenants, different commands...Same God
---micha9344 on 6/15/12

what exactly is your point here?
---francis on 6/16/12


Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
Gen 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt, dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Exo 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Different people, different covenants, different commands...Same God
---micha9344 on 6/15/12


The verse in Isaiah 8:20 refers to those "that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter"
---lee1538 on 6/15/12
LOL LOL
No it does not speak ONLY to them that have familiar spirits, It is the standard: See I gave TWO supporting text which has nothing to do with them that have familiar spirits,

Revelation 12:17 the remnant: hich keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 te saints: they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

CONTEXT is different from doctrine

in the CONTEXT of Isiaih 8 it is familiar spirits, in revelation it is a differnt context but SAME DOCTRINE
---francis on 6/15/12


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\\ I thought I did a pretty good job on this irrational scenario.\\

Well, you didn't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/12


\\SDA use the the follwoing BIBLE standard:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. \\

And therefore there is no light in EGW or SDA.

EGW was a wizardress who peeped and muttered what her demons told her.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/12


Cluny,

Then how would you explain this son of god, that is himself, born of a virgin thing? I thought I did a pretty good job on this irrational scenario.
---atheist on 6/15/12


//SDA use the the follwoing BIBLE standard:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

SDA quote the Bible usually out of context.

The verse in Isaiah 8:20 refers to those "that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter" (8,19) and that exactly reflects olde Ellen White does it not?

That familiar spirit was her 'accompanying angel'. One needs only to view the dissension she has caused in God's household to see what spirit worked in her.
---lee1538 on 6/15/12


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atheist, what you are saying is NOT Christian doctrine, at least as held by instructed Christians.

I thought you were too intelligent to indulge in the straw man argument.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/15/12


atheist, don'tcha just love the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
---aka on 6/15/12


Is doing so any stranger than following a man claim to be both god and the son of god, (his own son) and born of a virgin through supernatural impregnation by his father part so he, the son part could be born.
---atheist on 6/14/12


If someone came to me and said that they saw and angel, I may be sceptical, i may believe them

I would never make a judgment about them or their church based on whether or not they saw an angel

SDA use the the follwoing BIBLE standard:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Revelation 12:17 the remnant.. which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 The saints: they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

NOT DREAMS AND ANGELIC VISITS
---francis on 6/14/12


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nothing new with angels appearing to people...---francis on 6/14/12

true, but its witness and documentation tell the whole story.
---aka on 6/14/12


Well, Lee . . . people do trust leaders of really weird groups. Weren't a number of us able to believe there's an obese guy with a red coat and reindeer, who delivers gifts to the whole world in one night? We humans can believe anything.

So, it might be good to check our own selves . . . to see how we are fooling our own selves, with no help from weird groups. But we can be tricked into pointing the finger at others so we don't notice how we fool ourselves. We can be our own "angels" who visit ourselves with wrong things.
---willie_c: on 6/14/12


Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram,

Genesis 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire

Judges 6:12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him

Judges 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman ( NOT ELLEN WHITE THIS TIME)

Luke 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel,

nothing new with angels appearing to people

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
---francis on 6/14/12


If the "vision" does not line up with the Word of God, then they are obviously a false prophet. God gave us the Bible to be able to discern what is true and what is false. I would concentrate upon following what we know for sure is from God, the Bible, rather than a vision from someone who may or may not be a false prophet. If the vision really is from God, then you're not going to miss out on it if you read the Bible, because a godly vision will only reiterate what is already in God's Word.
---Jed on 6/14/12


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Why do we need angels to bring us the truth, when God himself has already come in the flesh and indwells each believer with his Spirit, teaching us the truth?

(Gal 1:8)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed

I would think it best not to follow angels, as some have fallen.
---LindaH on 6/14/12


---lee1538 on 6/14/12
That is a foolish question
Matthew 1:20 behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream

Luke 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord

I could give scores of text where angels appear to people. So it is not a new or strange thing that an angel should appear,

As God has said:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

This is how we in adventism judge other denominations. It is forever God's standard of light, not angel appearance or dreams
---francis on 6/14/12


\\So though we might not agree with thease two denominations themselves who are we to question their angelic dreams or visions?\\

Sound doctrine did NOT come with the visions of either Joseph Smith or EGW.

And EGW has been clearly demonstrated to be not only a false prophet but a plagiarist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/14/12


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