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Wander In The Wilderness

In the Bible, starting in Genesis, when rebellious people displeased God He made them wander in the wilderness until they perished. Is God doing the same thing today?

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 ---Leon on 6/15/12
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Many gentiles became proselytes and joined Israel. Israel was a light to the Gentiles. Israel was God's Light to the Gentiles.

But even before Israel was a Nation, JOB who was a Gentile was in fact saved. No Job did not keep the Law or sabbath we see, but he kept the sacrifice, that was taught from Adam and Eve to Abel and on. Even Noah was a Gentile, who believed in God.


We really have no way of knowing HOW MANY Gentiles were saved in the OT.

And MarkV wants you to believe Cornelius was too, even before hearing teh Gospel.

Confused again MarkV???
---kathr4453 on 6/23/12


If God is not willing that any should perish, why wasn't the gospel given to the Gentiles in the Old Testament? Millions upon millions died without hope and without God. (Eph. 2:12,13,14) God could have easly open the gospel to all Gentiles in the Old T., but didn't.
MarkV///

Romans 2:15-17
King James Version (KJV)

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Noah preached the GOSPEL TO GENTILES for over 100 years before teh flood.
---kathr4453 on 6/23/12


Joshua 3:13
And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the LORD of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above, and they shall stand upon an heap.


The ARK represents Jesus Christ. Jesus took them over.
The Jordan represent the CROSS..three days.

The Ark was not in Egypt, or came out of Egypt. The ARK and all it represented was builded in the wilderness.
---kathr4453 on 6/23/12


moses leading his people out of egypt is a type of a christian today. born again believers can still wander in the desert. A born again person needs nurturing by the seasoned christians. I did wonder in the wilderness for over 20 years. I didn't listen to "moses" but praise God He brought me back but we still have to pay four what we do in the body.
---shira4368 on 6/23/12


Interestingly enough, once the children did enter the Promise Land AKA Salvation, not one single one left the promise land and went back and wandered aimlessly in the desert.

But those who never entered the land never entered God REST aka Salvation. They died IN THEIR SIN in the wilderness.

The wilderness is not salvation and never was.
---kathr4453 on 6/23/12


\\The number 40 holds particular significance in the Bible and refers to a precise number, not just a long period of time. \\

Most Bible scholars will say you're wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/23/12




Gordon, I completely disagree with your statement when you said,

" True, GOD is willing that none perish, but, people have to choose what they really want."

If God is not willing that any should perish, why wasn't the gospel given to the Gentiles in the Old Testament? Millions upon millions died without hope and without God. (Eph. 2:12,13,14) God could have easly open the gospel to all Gentiles in the Old T., but didn't.
And since God is Omniscience, knowing all, who never gains knowledge, He gave the gospel to Israel knowing full well they would reject it. How do you explain that? And millions of Jews died in their sins. There is stories upon stories about them.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/12


moses leading his people out of egypt is a type of a christian today. born again believers can still wander in the desert. A born again person needs nurturing by the seasoned christians. I did wonder in the wilderness for over 20 years. I didn't listen to "moses" but praise God He brought me back but we still have to pay four what we do in the body.
---shira4368 on 6/23/12


Gordon, I don't disagree with you , however there was more going on in the wilderness than just wandering around waiting to die. God established the Law, built the tabernacle, established the Levitical priesthood, taught them faith..WATER from the Rock, established rules and statutes and so much more right there in the wilderness. Yes many perished in the wilderness who rebelled against Moses.

BUT, just as Moses himself spent 40 years tending sheep, as God prepared him, God also used that 40 years to establish more than just wandering for the purpose of them dying. They learned the law...sabbath rest, the lesson of daily manna and so much more.


Paul spent 14 years on the back side of a mountain..as God taught and prepared him.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


correction, I do hope I said tabernacle and not temple. I mean tabernacle. God forbid anyone make a mistake here.

There is an awesome book called Seeing Christ in the Tabernacle. Gosh, we have the Mercy seat, all the types and shadows of Christ Himself in every piece of wood, Gold etc etc. Aaron's rod that budded...Oh my,

What would we really know of salvation without all this?
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


The number 40 holds particular significance in the Bible and refers to a precise number, not just a long period of time. There are at least ten instances in the Old Testament and New Testament where 40 occurs, either in years or days, e.g. it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, Moses was on the mountain 40 days and 40 nights, the Israelites wandered 40 years, Jesus fasted in the wilderness for 40 days and was seen on the earth for 40 days after His crucifixion.

A 40-something time period, whether days, months, or years is ALWAYS a period of testing, trial, probation, or chastisement (but not judgment) and ends with a period of restoration, revival or renewal.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12




Kathr4453, The children of Israel displeased the LORD greatly by their incessant whining and complaining. HE lead them out from the slavery in Egypt by a Strong and Mighty Arm. They saw the Wonders and Miracles of Almighty GOD that destroyed their captors. But, still, they preferred to be ungrateful and to criticize Moses and GOD as if GOD couldn't be trusted. The journey to the Promised Land would normally've been a few days travel. But, on account of their mistrust, GOD took them The Long Way Home. In virtual circles for 40 years. Many simply died off or were killed by snakes (those who did not look up to the Bronze Serpent on the Pole, the foreshadowing of YAHUSHUA on the Cross). Many died and never entered the Promised Land.
---Gordon on 6/22/12


In Hebrews 3-4 there is nothing about God making anyone wander until they perished. They were preached the Gospel just as we. The Gospel was "entering in" His Rest which equals salvation.

TODAY is the Day of Salvation, not the days of wandering in the wilderness.

We enter by faith. God brought them to the edge and THEN they were too coward(lack of faith) to go over because there were Giants in the land. THEN God said they would not.

The 40 years was NOT for the purpose of all of them dying.

Paul warns "us"( who is US here?) not to whine as did they.

We are not to whine and carry on when we are tried and tested, but Have faith that what God has promised He will do.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


What the wilderness represents today are those who have made a profession of faith, that is coming out of Egypt AKA the World, and living on the wrong side of teh CROSS. They came out but never went in.

Coming out doesn't save you, entering in does.

One must be crucified with Christ and raised a New Creature which represents the promise Land. Jesus is that promise land to us today. HE is our life.

Many today believe they are saved and are not, and it's THEY who are the ones in the wilderness.

COME ON OVER...IT'S absolutely awsome in the Promise Land. Don't be a coward.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


Leon, MarkV and Gordon, the question states, when rebellious people displease God...is that past present or future? 2nd People, is that Jews, gentiles or both?

Is there actually any land one is entering today? Literal SAND their walking around in circles?

That which applied to Israel alone PAST does not apply to us today.

You are trying to spiritualize something that happened literally to Israel alone.

Israel God's chosen people.
Today it would apply to Christians correct? Is God making Christians wander around in the wilderness until they perish? NO, you are either in the Promise Land or you are not...your are either saved or not.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


Kathr4453, The children of Israel who GOD made to wander in the desert for 40 years were being punished by GOD. HE made them to wander until they all died off so that they would not be able to enter into the Promised Land. They were found unworthy by GOD of entering therein, on account of their whining, complaining, doubting and cowardice. GOD allowed the next generation to enter into Canaan and reap from it's bounty. True, GOD is willing that none perish, but, people have to choose what they really want. Do they want GOD and HIS Land? Then, they must trust and follow HIM, with a right attitude. GOD wants none to perish, but, neither does HE violate HIS Principles and Standards for the sake of sentimentalities. HE means exactly what HE says.
---Gordon on 6/22/12


Kathr, I answered to make sure others would not think I was trashing Mary.

Wandering and perishing, In the Old Testament the gospel went to Israel, not to Gentiles. It wasn't until Paul, by the command of Christ, that the gospel went to the Gentiles. Through history the majority of died without hope and without God. If God did not create them to wander and perish, He would have given them the gospel.
Paul to the Gentiles,
"that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:12.13).
---Mark_V. on 6/22/12


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Leon, as to the question, all through history from Adam to now, God has permitted many to wander until they perish.
---Mark_V. on 6/22/12

For pete sakes, what value is there in that question if you believe God created people to just wander until they perish. God gave life, and has permitted man to live and breath until they perish.

He's hoping while they are wandering they will wander right into His loving arms and find salvation and rest for their soul. The Promise land was that of REST....

And MarkV I was not making fun of Mary, Ruben or Cluny. I simply said, I thoroughly enjoyed your post. You don't have to read something sinister in it.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/12


The Roman Catholic church has taught people to read more into those Bible Verses that refer to Mary than was really intended. Mary (Miriam) is the flesh-and-blood mother of YAHUSHUA (JESUS), of His Humanity. She was not, and is not, the "Mother of GOD". She was chosen as a humble, obedient vessel to give birth to, and to raise to adulthood, the Lord YAHUSHUA. She was a servant of GOD, not HIS "Mother". She also had committed sin, like everyone else ("For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD.") She also was not a perpetual Virgin. She had sexual relations with Joseph after YAHUSHUA was born. To focus so much on "the Virgin Mary" is IDOLATRY. It's not JUST a matter of bowing to statues of her.
---Gordon on 6/22/12


"Leon, as to the question, all through history from Adam to now, God has permitted many to wander until they perish."
---Mark_V. on 6/22/12


Thanks Mark! In case anyone is "wondering", that's the whole point of this blog. Many here have been roaming (drifting) all over the place regarding my original question. :)

Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Timothy 3 paint a vivid, graphic and what should be a terrifying picture, and warning of Holy God's wrath against mankind's sin, past, present and future. In a very real sense, nations of people today are endlessly "wandering" (drifting aimlessly) and perishing (dying) in the wilderness (sinking sands) of SINai...
---Leon on 6/22/12


\\I have respect for both of them, but not many of their teachings, and the atrocities that happened in history because of the RCC.\\

Protestants committed atrocities, too.

Don't forget that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/22/12


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Kathr, my answer was not to trash Mary in any way. She should be respected but not worshipped. Nor to trash Ruben or Cluny. I answered Ruben because what he said sounded so wrong. I have respect for both of them, but not many of their teachings, and the atrocities that happened in history because of the RCC. Within that movement, there is many sincere born again Christians, just like there has always been through the centuries. But this blog had a different purpose or topic.

Leon, as to the question, all through history from Adam to now, God has permitted many to wander until they perish.
---Mark_V. on 6/22/12


MarkV, I will say, I thoroughly enjoyed your last post!

Cluny, you insist yours is the only denomination approved by God..the ONLY true Church. And whether you are RCC or not, your denomination exalts Mary, believes in the Assumption of Mary, which is a BIGGIE. Here's why. If the Mary of the Church of the Apostles is not the Mary of scripture, then your Mary's Jesus is not the Jesus of Scripture.

You may be using stolen identities, by using the same names, but the Only Jesus Christ I have a relationship with, did not have a mother that was Assumed into heaven.

And since you all do not believe in original SIN, then your Jesus was never needed to die on a cross to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/12


Ruben, don't you realize the only way you can take Mary home is in a statue? You said,

" " from that hour the disciple took her home", we should do the same"

She is dead, and is waiting for the resurrection. Think: Would Jesus tell us to take her home now at this time, when she has been dead for centuries? I don't think so Ruben. Her parts have turned to dust. You could go to where she died, if you knew in the first place, and pick up some dirt and hope part of it is her. Can you imagine people from all over the world taking dirt from there? The only conclusion would be to take her home from a store which sells statues of her, and take it home and worship her there. That is idol worship.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12


kathr, why did you drag up the subject of Mary, anyway?

YOU were the first one to mention her.

And I'm NOT Roman Catholic, though you substantially are.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 6/21/12


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Eloy, AMEN and thank you for a right on post here. I coundn't have answered as good as you did.


We have others who are blesed too:

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/12


Ruben, Jesus is the one that created the woman Mary. Stop committing idolatry, Mary is no Mediator, she has lived her life on earth and now is dead, and therefore she can do zero for you or any other living person. Christ the only Lord God has resurrected from the dead and he everlives to intercede for all mankind, and not Mary. Mary did zero for mankind, she only offered herself to accept the Word presented to her from God into her life, in order to give birth to the Word her Maker. It is irrelavant that Jesus chose Mary, for Jesus could have chosen any of the virgins that he made from the line of David in order to put on flesh and come into the world. So please give your life to Christ, and hail Christ, not Mary.
---Eloy on 6/21/12


please provide scripture stating one cannot have a right relationship with the Lord unless they include Mariological Doctrine.

---kathr4453 on 6/21/12

I will take this challenge:

1. God chose Mary to bring the Savior, if Mary was important to God, shouldn't she mean something to us?

2.Jesus make his fist miracle at the request of Mary.

3.Elizabeth and the baby jump for joy on hearing her 'Voice' and 'Greeting'

4.Jesus make a profound statement at the cross : "Son, behold thy Mother" Do you think those words mean nothing to us? Scripture says " from that hour the disciple took her home", we should do the same!
---Ruben on 6/21/12


\\See, you said it all right here. By your standards it's either BOTH or none. It's you who believes you cannot have a right relationship with the Lord unless you also include Mariological Doctrine. And it's you who believe no one else can have a right relationship with the Lord unless they include Mariological Doctrine. \\

NOW who is twisting words, kathr?

I'm not saying that at all.

Why are you always in attack mode?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/21/12


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Cluny, I only pointed out what YOUR denomination AFTER you scoffed at my original post.

It's impossible to have a meaninjgful discussion with anyone who believes their denomination is the ONLY ONE with God's approval.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/12


kathr, it is impossible do have a meaningful and productive conversation on ANYTHING with people who don't even remember what they themselves have said, such as yourself.

YOU were the one who brought up Mary on this thread, not I, as you can see for yourself.

I never bring her up on these blogs.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/21/12


There is no sense in discussing Mariological doctrine with someone who does not have right faith concerning our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--

---Cluny on 6/20/12

See, you said it all right here. By your standards it's either BOTH or none. It's you who believes you cannot have a right relationship with the Lord unless you also include Mariological Doctrine. And it's you who believe no one else can have a right relationship with the Lord unless they include Mariological Doctrine.

Well I totally disagree and so does scripture.
Cluny please provide scripture stating one cannot have a right relationship with the Lord unless they include Mariological Doctrine.

Mary was a virgin. I believe this.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/12


kathr, I asked you why you have to lie every time you answer and you said,

"I did it MarkV because I feel I can do that based on my feelings at the moment."

Your feelings must be in evil mode every time you answer me because you do that about 80% of the time. If discussing the Word of God disturbs you so much that you have to lie about others, why not stop answering or asking questions? This way you will feel better each day, this way you won't take it out on your husband, children or friends, Or try the pen-pals section, maybe there you will be happy.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/12


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\\Cluny, aren't you saying Jesus Jesus Jesus ...\\

There is no sense in discussing Mariological doctrine with someone who does not have right faith concerning our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--that's YOU, kathr.

\\ This conversation began with you concerning Mary...and now you want to change the subject.\\

You are the one who brought her up, not I. Here is the FIRST mention of Mary on this blog, which you can see that YOU YOURSELF made:

**And lets also remember Cluny my RCC friend, Jesus is the Son of GOD Almighty. Not God through your Mary God.

Jesus sinlessness came through HIS FATHER.

Mary was a sinner!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12**

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/12


Cluny, aren't you saying Jesus Jesus Jesus because you don't want to be pinned down on the Mary issue. This conversation began with you concerning Mary...and now you want to change the subject.

Since God is silent on Enoch and Elijah concerning what form they are in and what they are doing etc, It's not my place to make up any fables concerning either.

It is appointed for man once to die, and then the judgement.

Somewhere, whether already or at some future date, they too will have to die.

Mary died, and is asleep in the Lord...not floating around in space outside of Christ. I'll bet Mary is buried next to Joseph her husband, and other children she had after the birth of Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 6/20/12


Question for you, kathr:

Why do you keep on saying Mary, Mary, Mary, when I keep on saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus?

And when are you going to deal with the matter of the human bodies of Elijah and Enoch being in heaven?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/12


Let me clarify my words. Jesus Christ who is fully God and Fully man, died and rose from the dead, being taken into Heaven and then Glorified together with God having today that same Glory He had with the Father before humbling Himself and leaving Glory for you and me.

The MAN Christ Jesus is in heaven today sitting at the right hand of the Father, the ONLY mediator between God and Man.

Jesus is not floating around the heavens.

Mary is not in a human body who is glorified and appearing as some bright light to little girls and boys giving messages from God.

Thank you for the opportunity to be able to more cleary CLARIFY that!
---kathr4453 on 6/20/12


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ONLY Jesus Christ rose from the dead and was taken up into Heaven being Glorified the way He was before being Born of a virgin.

TRUE: Spirits don't rise from the dead DUHHHHAAAA!



There are no HUMAN BODIES floating around the heavens, not even Mary's.

TRUE: ther are no human bodies FLOATING AROUND THE HEAVENS! DUHHHHHAAAA


---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


Oh how people love to try and find something they can twist....believing you said somehting you never did.

Spoken like a trur MarkV Cluny...I see he is your example too!
---kathr4453 on 6/20/12


Oh YEA YEA, how does it feel MarkV, having your words distorted, twisted, misrepresented etc....I feel your pain...I really do. So does more than 95 percent of those here on line. but who really cares ..right!

I did it MarkV because I feel I can do that based on my feelings at the moment. You've been that perfect example that we can all do what you do.

And with that, based on your belief that a wrong is ok if it makes one feel better, because one can come up with some sort of reason to justify a wrong, ..well, ...why not!

Thanks for being that example we can all follow!
---kathr4453 on 6/20/12


Kathr, every day you have more lies then the last. You said,

"And MarkV hear is agreeing with your RCC doctrine that somehow Mary is some sort of divine being that appears out of nowhere here and there to talk to people."

Your corrupt mind looks for fault and if it cannot find it, your corrupt mind creates it. Cluny is correct on many answers, yet I never agreed Mary was divine just because I agreed Jesus resurrected in His human body. Your mind is so full of it, there is no room for Truth.
When Cluny is right, I agree with him. If its something I don't agree I will say I don't agree. Not you. When someone does not agree on one point with you, you condemn them on forever even if they speak the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 6/20/12


\\Cluny, I have no idea what you are again babbling about,\\

That's because you don't recognize sound doctrine. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

\\ Of coarse Jesus has a body in heaven. I don't argue that at all\\

That,'s not what you said here:

\\There are no HUMAN BODIES floating around the heavens, not even Mary's.\\

Since Jesus STILL has a human body, you clearly do not believe in the real Jesus.

And you never said what became of the human bodies of Enoch and Elijah.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 6/20/12


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Cluny, I have no idea what you are again babbling about, Of coarse Jesus has a body in heaven. I don't argue that at all. What you all believe is that Mary was taken up in bodily form as well.

And MarkV hear is agreeing with your RCC doctrine that somehow Mary is some sort of divine being that appears out of nowhere here and there to talk to people.

As far as Enoch and Elijah, all I can say is that scripture states God took them. NO SUCH SCRIPTURE EXISTS concerning Mary being taken up in bodily form. The last we hear of Mary in scripture is when she was in the upper room receiving the Holy Spirit with about 100 others.

The rest of your doctrine is a delusional heresy.
---kathr4453 on 6/20/12


Cluny, you are correct, Jesus and Jesus only rose from the dead in His glorified human body. you said,
"Part of His human nature is His physical body.
Jesus did NOT shed this at His Resurrection, nor did He abandon it before or after His Ascension.
Yes, His human body is in heaven."
Very true.
A about a million times you said you are not a Roman Catholic. Though the E. orthodox follow many of the same doctrines. Eloy seems to believe he determines who has the Spirit of God and who doesn't.
About Mary going to heaven in her human body, that is not found in Scripture. Only Jesus has. When the Second Coming of Christ comes, all those who born of the Spirit will be resurrected in their new glorified bodies.
---Mark_V. on 6/20/12


kathr4453, A-men. No matter what you post, cluny is known to be inclined to post the oppositie because he is carnally-minded devoid of the Spirit. From his own postings he reveals that he is steeped in the talmud and traditions from men, and orthodoxies or "other-dox", but he is not steeped in the Holy Word. Religion has their "other" books which they add to the Holy Bible because they think it helps "compliment" the Scripture, but in fact they don't, instead they mislead and counter the Word. Until he gets Jesus on the inside of him, and becomes born-again he will always remain outside of the garden and no part of Christ nor us Christians.
---Eloy on 6/20/12


God does separate his own from the environment of the world. This way he can focus one-on-one with his people. This is one reason why we fast, to separate our self from the world and fasten ourselves to the Lord and feed our relationship we have with him. When I first got saved/changed I wanted everybody else to have the same goodness, but over time I learned to be careful whom to share this goodness with or else you can be greatly persecuted and beaten, and you can also lose your friends your spouse your family your job, et cetera. Now I learned to minister discreetly and not to put my pearls in front of swine: and when I do lead a person one-on-one to the Lord and they get it! Hallelujah! Praise God! they have a brand new life.
---Eloy on 6/20/12


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Before I deal with any Marian teaching, kathr, I have to show you where you're wrong about Christ's ascension.

At His incarnation in the womb of the Virgin, the Divine Nature of the Son/Logos was permanently united with His human nature, and these two are never to be separated.

Part of His human nature is His physical body.

Jesus did NOT shed this at His Resurrection, nor did He abandon it before or after His Ascension.

Yes, His human body is in heaven.

If you do not believe this, kathr, you do not believe in the real Jesus, and are not saved or anything close to it.

BTW--where are the human bodies of Elijah and Enoch?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/12


Eloy, Yes I can see what you are saying, and I totally agree.

If I perchance made a statement that the Talmud was written in God's STONE and the final authority, do you think he would then agree with me or argue that only the Word of God was the only authority of truth.

Yep, he's starting to bore me.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


kathr4453, I see. You should consider the source, Cluny's track record reveals that he commonly posts the opposite of whatsoever Christians post. I do not waste time addressing those kind of postings, for as long as he remains stony-hearted he cannot receive any truth that you post. You will notice that when you post Yes, he will reply with no, and when you post No, then he will reply with yes...and find that that is boring and predictable.
---Eloy on 6/19/12


Cluny, did Mary die physically? Was she then burried in the ground or tomb like everyone else? And you are teaching the resurrection has already happened, OR are you saying Mary never physically died as do we?

If she died as do we, did anyone witness her resurrection, like those that witnessed Jesus Resurrection?

Where is Paul and all the other Apostles right now? Are they too as Mary, floating around in glorified bodies, or do they have to wait like the rest of us for the first resurrection?

BE CAREFUL HOW YOU ANSWER, SO YOU DON'T MAKE MARY A GOD.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


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\\The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven, informally known as The Assumption, according to the belief of Christians of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life.\\

In other words, by ALL the pre-Reformation Churches, including those that never had anything to do with Rome.

\\ONLY Jesus Christ rose from the dead and was taken up into Heaven being Glorified the way He was before being Born of a virgin.\\

WRONG AGAIN!]

Jesus ascended into Heaven in his PHYSICAL GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


\\I was just showing Cluny that things written in Jewish Talmuds are OPINIONS and commentaries and at times fables not found in scripture, but just mens opinions etc.\\

That they well may be, but traditional Jews take them seriously.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


Whoa, is Eloy a girl? All this time I thought Eloy was a guy!
---Jed on 6/19/12


The Orthodox Church does not hold a forensic view of Original Sin, that is, they hold that the sin of Adam did not transmit an intrinsic, guilt to his descendants. Ancestral Sin, as they would call it, transmitted what may be termed as a genetic predisposition to sin, but not a juridical declaration from God that such-a-one is born in sin. Since no forensic guilt is transmitted genetically through Original Sin, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of our Blessed Mother is considered superfluous. She had no need for such an exception because there was nothing to exempt her from in the first place.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


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Not God through your Mary God.
---kathr4453 on 6/19

kathr,

First of all God send Jesus Christ the Savior through Mary. If Mary was important to God, shouldn't she be to us?

Then we read scripture where it reads She did this "In a loud voice she exclaimed:" " For behold, when the voice of your greeting cam to my ears "(LK 1:44)Just by hearding her voice and her greeting Elizabeth and the baby were overjoy!

And finally at the cross Jeus makes a profound statement:
"From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." (Jhn 19:26-27)

Was he having small talk while he hung on he cross? V 27 says "this disciple took her into his home." Shouldn't we do the same?
---Ruben on 6/19/12


I understand more than you think micha9433,

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven, informally known as The Assumption, according to the belief of Christians of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."


ONLY Jesus Christ rose from the dead and was taken up into Heaven being Glorified the way He was before being Born of a virgin.

There are no HUMAN BODIES floating around the heavens, not even Mary's.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


Cluny is "not" RCC.
If you are going to berate someone's beliefs, at least have the coutesy to know "what" they believe.
---micha9344 on 6/19/12


\\And lets also remember Cluny my RCC friend, Jesus is the Son of GOD Almighty. Not God through your Mary God. \\

You just dont' get the fact that I'm ORTHODOX and not Roman Catholic, do you?

And NOBODY, not even Roman Catholics, has ever said that Mary is God.

Of course, I realize that truth means nothing to you, as you live in a fantasy world.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


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Eloy I totally agree. I was just showing Cluny that things written in Jewish Talmuds are OPINIONS and commentaries and at times fables not found in scripture, but just mens opinions etc.

---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


such ungodly and unBiblical sexist garbage. Man and woman are not either one any more spiritual than the other. The obedient soul, no matter wether it be man or woman or child, is the spiritual one, and the disobedient soul, no matter whether it be a man or woman or child, is the carnal one. The woman is not more spiritual, for in fact after satan she was the very next one whom sinned against God, and is called the "weaker vessel". This does not mean that a woman cannot become spritually strong, for through obedience to Christ and living in his Spirit, the woman may partake of the selfsame Spirit from Christ as also the man and the child likewise may be a member of Christ's one body.
---Eloy on 6/19/12


So Cluny, can you tell me WHICH Talmud it is recorded in? And can you prove it was not ADDED as many laws were added not found in scripture.

So, before popping off your mouth, lets remember the Talmud???as there are many and not all Jews adhere to ALL the Talmuds out there is not Gods word, but opinions and commentaries on God's word.

There is a big difference.

Much in these Talmuds are traditions and FABLES as well of which Paul warns against!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


And lets also remember Cluny my RCC friend, Jesus is the Son of GOD Almighty. Not God through your Mary God.

Jesus sinlessness came through HIS FATHER.

Mary was a sinner!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


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Deuteronomy 7:3 "Do not marry with them, your daughter you may not give to a Gentile's son, and you may not take a Gentile's daughter for your son." Why? Because, says the Torah, "For he will take your son away from Me, and they will worship the gods of others..."

Note, by the way, that the Torah's prohibition against marrying a Gentile applies to both a Jewish man marrying a Gentile woman, and a Jewish woman marrying a Gentile man. Both are forbidden.

HERE IS God's Law.

Geonology in scripture always go through the male side, not female.

And "woman" is bone of HIS bone and flesh of HIS flesh, not vice versa. And one like Ruth Etc were converted FIRST before marrying a Jew.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of "binah" (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was "built" (Gen. 2:22) rather than "formed" (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of "build" has the same consonants as the word "binah." It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophecy. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to God's ideal than men.

OK CLUNY!!! We'll just go with that then!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


\\I believe your law came into effect as a result of WWII.\\

And if you do believe this, then you believe a double falsehood.

1. It's not my law. It's traditional Jewish law.

2. It was observed CENTURIES before WW2.

Doesn't it bother you to pop off your mouth about things you clearly know nothing about?

\\I know you and the RCC are on a WORKS based salvation, so your interpretation would be a works salvation!\\

I'm not Roman Catholic. You seem to have trouble grasping that. Why?

And YOU believe in works salvation, not I.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


This is a law later written down in the Talmud. Ask any Orthodox rabbi.

Glory to Jesus Christ

!
---Cluny on 6/19/12

Not a LAW written by God...correct.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


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\\Cluny, Before we get started please show scripture that Jewish law says a Jewish father and gentile mother produce a gentile offspring.\\

Not all Jewish law is contained in the Bible, kathr. Didn't you know that?

This is a law later written down in the Talmud. Ask any Orthodox rabbi.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


Cluny, Before we get started please show scripture that Jewish law says a Jewish father and gentile mother produce a gentile offspring. That would make Solomon a gentile. Really, a Gentile KING of the tribe of Judah...Get out! Joseph's sons were blessed by Jacob and are listed as the tribes of Israel.


I believe your law came into effect as a result of WWII.

The testing of Jesus in the Wilderness is not that which parallels the Jews being delivered out of bondage from Egypt, also know as the world. Pharoah = satan Egypt = the world. Jesus was never in bondage to Satan or the world.

I know you and the RCC are on a WORKS based salvation, so your interpretation would be a works salvation!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/12


\\But if those evil parents moved into Canaan where they could mix Jews and Gentiles, there could have been no pure Jewish nation for giving human birth to Jesus as a Jew. \\

Did you know that if you read Matthew 1, you will find at least two GENTILE women in the human ancestry of Christ?

According to Jewish law, the offspring of a Jewish father and Gentile mother is a Gentile.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


**Leon, the only wilderness experience was when Israel came out of Egypt. TODAY, for a Christian, there are no such things as wilderness experiences.**

Jesus had one. Since when is the servant greater than the Master, or the disciple greater than the Teacher?

Ever hear the expression "dark night of the soul?" Just what do you think it's talking about? Pretty stars?

**To say WE have to WORK to enter the Promise of Salvation is so very wrong.**

Wrong, again, kathr. Jesus said to STRIVE to enter the gate. And St. Paul said, "WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Do you ever actually read the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/19/12


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Leon, the only wilderness experience was when Israel came out of Egypt. TODAY, for a Christian, there are no such things as wilderness experiences. The rebellion started when Moses left and a golden calf was made. God knew His Chosen people were not ready or mature enough to take posession, and wanted to teach them a few things. As we see, none that came out of Egypt those 20 and over did not enter the promise.

To say WE have to WORK to enter the Promise of Salvation is so very wrong.

We are tested to bring about Christ in us to maturity, but this is not the Wilderness. One TODAY actually has to be IN CHRIST FIRST to be brought to maturity.
---kathr4453 on 6/18/12


\\But if those evil parents moved into Canaan where they could mix Jews and Gentiles, there could have been no pure Jewish nation\\

A careful reading of the OT shows that this is in fact what happened.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/12


The wilderness experience is always a trial intended to produce and/or reinforce an intended spiritual growth. It is intended to be a time for reflection and meditation, a time to feed on the bread of life. It is "the day of temptation", Heb. 3:17 or more clearly stated, it is a time of testing and/or correction. Today, "the woman", called as bearer of the new covenant, has fled into a wilderness of deception that will eventually lead to apostasy. Generally, denominational religion has sought and taught safety in the escapism doctrine of a rapture, which will, in time, be fed to them directly "from the face of the serpent", Rev. 12.6>12:14>17:3 as a flood, during the ultimate wilderness experience. 12:15
---joseph on 6/16/12


Strange that Archaeologists have never found evidence of a large group of people living in the "wilderness", of the area, mentioned in the bible!
In a forty year period, some artifacts would have surfaced by now!
---1st_cliff on 6/16/12


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Well, not taking into account the flood of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah, Dathan and Abiram, Ananias and Sapphira, and a host of others, one might say this statement is true.
But given these facts, I would say God uses various means to punish or chastise people and is still doing so today.
---micha9344 on 6/16/12


Hi, Leon (c: What I understand is that God wanted to make sure there would be a family line through the people of Israel so Jesus could be born a human and a Jew. But if those evil parents moved into Canaan where they could mix Jews and Gentiles, there could have been no pure Jewish nation for giving human birth to Jesus as a Jew. So, God had them die off so only their children would move into the promised land.

I'd say now, also, God's judging always is connected with His overall purpose of having us as the Bride church for His Son Jesus. So His judging is always multi-tasking (c:
---willie_c: on 6/16/12


At the time of Moses and Joshua the 40 year waiting period was to reproduce male fighting men to concur the inhabitants of Canaan. When Joshua first sent the scouts out to recon the area he found out he did not have a sufficient force to concur Canaan
---Blogger9211 on 6/15/12


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