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Jehovah Witnesses 7th Day

Both Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael, and they are the only true church.

What the things JW's and SDA's have in common, what things are different about these groups?

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 ---Rob on 6/18/12
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A 'mediator'- MarkV.

Paul discusses the Abrahamic and Law covenants at Gal.3:15-21. He states the principle, 'there is no mediator where only one person is concerned,' and then added 'God is only one'.

In the matter of the Abrahamic covenant (involving one person), no mediator was needed. In the case of many people as in the Law Covenant with Israel, a mediator was used- Moses (Gal.3:19), validated by animal sacrifices.

However, Christ's death releases all from the Mosaic Law Covenant, 'For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant'- Heb.9:15 (NIV). Thus to validate the new covenant and to 'bring us (me and you) to God', Christ was put to death 'in the flesh' (Heb.9:16, 1Pe.3:18 NIV).
---David8318 on 6/27/12


'Jesus Christ is both fully man, and fully God'- MarkV. Where does scripture specifically teach this?

MarkV also says, 'if He was only flesh there is no salvation for you'. Not according to Peter, who wrote, 'Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit' (ASV)- 1 Pe.3:18.

Jesus returned to spirit life after being put to death 'in the flesh'. His death 'in the flesh' saves me and everyone else who exist in the flesh- Mt.20:28.

Regarding the mediator, MarkV needs to meditate on 1 Tim.2:5, 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' (NIV). Notice it says 'the MAN'.
---David8318 on 6/27/12


"[I] support Jewish right to their homeland. You don't. So you're another anti-Semite." Marc

Thought I'd just let that hang there for all of us to chew on.
---scott on 6/27/12


'I do believe God's six creation days were ordinary 24hr days'- Warwick.

Warwick revealling close links with his C & MA outfit with the SDA's. There's hardly any light between them.

Psalms 90:4, Moses referring to God's creative activity says regarding God's count of time, 'For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night' (NIV).

John 1:1 does not say 'Jesus is a god'. Where do the scriptures say the Son of God was God?
---David8318 on 6/27/12


'Who is this "US' and " our" which is God?'- francis.

Are we to believe God saying 'us' and 'our' at Genesis 1:26 that God is a trinity? Which part of the trinity do you believe God is talking to?

Philippians 2:6 means what it says, '(Christ) who although existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God'. Christ did not consider seizing equality with God.

You ask, 'Can yu reconsile these Genesis 1:1' (?)

John 1:1, 'In the beginning... the Word was WITH God... this one was in the beginning WITH God'. Jehovah God created everything (Gen.1:1). When creating man, God said to his Son (who was 'WITH' him), 'let us make man in our image'- Gen.1:26.
---David8318 on 6/27/12




Scott, National Council of Churches' aversion to Christian Zionism. I've lived, worked in Israel and support Jewish right to their homeland. You don't. So you're another anti-Semite. NCC's political e.g. "The Antiochian Orthodox Church suspended participation in NCC because "[it]seems to have taken a turn toward political positioning." A JW talking politics? What will your masters say?
The Reformed Church in America: historically-ignorant bigots. Now before getting too far out of your depth,my undergraduate degree concerned Middle Eastern politics. I suggest you read revisionist Benny Morris' The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Oh, but you can't: JWs are forbidden to read unapproved material.
---Marc on 6/27/12


David, Warwick gave you (Heb. 10:5) and then you said that "1 John 4:2 gives no ground for believing Jesus was anything but 'flesh'. Anything beyond that is antichrist"
Actually what you said is antichrist. You deny the fact that Jesus Christ is both fully man, and fully God. Your theology cannot save you, for if He was only flesh there is no salvation for you. The Mediator between God and men cannot be God only, or man only. These is taught in (Gal. 3:20) "A Mediator is not of one, but God is one" A Mediator supposes two parties between whom He intervenes: But God is only one party. Consequently, the Mediator between God and men must be related to both, and be the equal of either.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/12


Francis, "angel of the Lord", or "the angel of God", literally means the angel "from" the Lord, or the angel from God. There are times when metaphors are used to show the contrast of heaven to earth, when Jacob fought with the angel and said he had seen the face of God, that means he seen the face of heaven and not God's literal face. Many humans mistake angelic visitations as a visit from God himself but that is misidentification of the messenger sent by God for God himself whom sent the messenger. John whom wrote Revelation was going to bow down and worship the angel giving him the Book of Revelation, but the angel forbade him and said, Do not do so, for I also am created and a fellow-worshipper of God as you are.
---Eloy on 6/26/12


Scott, I see no contradiction between your question and my answer as preaching the gospel means the same as "following Jesus' commission to preach the good news of the Kingdom", as 'gospel' means the 'good news.'

It is a difficult question to answer personally, and you addressed the question personally. If I was to explain my efforts to preach the gospel it could be seen as boasting. Hence my closing quote. That should have been clear to you.
---Warwick on 6/26/12


Scott, you say JW's believe in salvation by grace alone. However in Reasoning From the Scriptures p.358 we see an explanation of Philippians 2:12 "Paul urged them not to be overly condfident but to realize their final salvation was not assured." I believe this comment has taken what Paul is writing about, out of context. The context:

Paul was writing against Judaizers who insisted circumcision was necessary for salvation-3:1-3.

Against those who had personal rivalries, and ambitions-2:3,4,4:2.

Against those who taught people could achieve sinless perfection i.e. perfectionism.

Against the influence of 'antinomian libertines' who believed they could live either ignoring or going against God's law.
---Warwick on 6/26/12




David, you would have us believe John 1:1 says Jesus is a god.' Leaving aside the fact I reject this meaning can you show me anywhere else in the NT where the Son of God is called 'a god?' Scott can't!
---Warwick on 6/26/12


Jesus is not the messenger (angel),
---micha9344 on 6/26/12

How then do you account for THE ANGEL OF THE LORD/ GOD?
---francis on 6/26/12


David you are right I do believe God's six creation days were ordinary 24hr days because that is what God's word says. If you believe otherwise what Biblical proof can you offer?
---Warwick on 6/26/12


---David8318 on 6/26/12
Genesis 1: 26 And God went on to say: Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,

Who is this "US' and " our" which is God?

Philippians 2:6 who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God

Only God can be equal to God
that makes Jesus God

P.S All verses taken from NWT

John 1:1 In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him

Can yu reconsile these Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
---francis on 6/26/12


David, you are deceitful and evasive. Par for the course for the WTS!

My original comment was:

"Hebrews 10:5 'Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "....a body you prepared for me."'

Now what does this tell us? That the Son of God preexisted before He took upon Himself flesh, becoming fully man.

Is He also fully God? Colossians 1:16 confirms He is Creator God, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

Isaiah 9:6 confirms the Son is the Mighty God but you would have Him "a God."
---Warwick on 6/26/12


"Jesus is The ANGEL of the Lord. Meaning Jesus is also a messenger of the lord."-francis on 6/25/12
Jesus is not the messenger (angel), He is the Message (Word). He is what the Angels pronounced (the Word of the Lord).
I can see how you can confuse What is being said, Who said it, and who presented it, but they are not the same.
Just as the 'shout', the 'voice' and the 'trump' are not the same.
Just as the President, leader of America including the military, is not the same as Joint Chief of Staff, leader of the military.
When the Holy Spirit brings you into the truth of this, you will realize your error.
I cannot do this, just present it to you....
It is tough to give up a false doctrine.
---micha9344 on 6/26/12


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---David8318 on 6/26/12

Jesus being God, and The Arch Angel is no different than Jesus being God, and the Angel of The Lord
---francis on 6/26/12


Do you also believe that the prophets are angels?
---jonweckl on 6/26/12

If I answered that for you one way or the other, i would rob you of an opportunity to find out what the bible says.

I will answer you at a later date if you re unable to find out from the bible.

If you want a hint i can give you a hint, but not the answer
---francis on 6/26/12


Warwick's backtracking over his fallacious use of Hebrews 10:5 is for all to see. The issue is not over Jesus pre-existence which we all agree on.

The issue originally raised is the problematic beliefs held by both main stream trinitarians and SDA's. SDA's have the contradictory belief- Jesus being both God and the archangel. Trinitarians similarly believe Jesus is both spirit and flesh, a problem of which Warwick brilliantly tangles himself up in, in his erroneous use of Hebrews 10:5. Warwick's botched argument forces him to recant, set up a red herring and throw his usual tantrum- "you're deceitfull!"

1 John 4:2 gives no ground for believing Jesus was anything but 'flesh'. Anything beyond that is antichrist.
---David8318 on 6/26/12


Francis, on your 6/22/12 post.

According to your logic, since angels are messengers of God, and Jesus, having been sent by God, is the chief messenger, hence, in the verse you cited (Heb.1:1), we should now also say that the prophets, through whom God spoke to the fathers are also angels.

Do you also believe that the prophets are angels? Remember, the verse mentions that unto the fathers God spoke by the prophets, so the prophets are God's messengers to the fathers.
---jonweckl on 6/26/12


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Warwick has been caught out in his use of Hebrews 10:5 and in usual Warwick style raises a red herring: "I quoted Hebrews 10:5 to show that Jesus Christ was preexistent".

Nowhere does Warwick use the word 'pre-exist' in his 6/24/12 post.

Warwick quoted Hebrews 10:5 because apparently in his trinitarian mind it was "obvious" that "Jesus is fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh) as Scripture testifies... See Hebrews 10:5" demanded Warwick.

I agree without question Jesus was preexistent, but Warwick believes Jesus was both 'fully spirit' and 'fully flesh' when on earth. Heb.10:5 does not teach this trinitarian doctrine and goes against what is taught at 1 Jo.4:2.
---David8318 on 6/26/12


Eloy: "Leave your religion and find a Christian church teaching Biblical doctrine."

That would be good advice for YOU! You do not follow the Bible, but rather the doctrines of men. You even blasphemeously call yourself God. (Does "Eloi" ring a bell?)


---jerry6593 on 6/26/12


francis, Leave your religion and find a Christian church teaching Biblical doctrine. I have already rightly defined the word "with" meaning "together with", and not "having" as you wrongly misapply the angel's voice to that of Jesus as though the angel is Jesus, when the angel is Not Jesus: The messenger is not the King. Stop confusing the creation with the Creator, and committing idolatry with the angel Michael, Michael is not the Lord Jesus: Michael is not the Lamb of God whose vesture is dipped in blood, Jesus is. Jesus appoints Michael to sound the trumpet signaling his arrival, then Jesus calls for the dead to rise, just as Jesus, and Not Michael, also resurrected Lazarus from the dead, as in John 11:14-44.
---Eloy on 6/25/12


---Eloy on 6/25/12

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth

So whose voice do they hear that causes them to come forth, the arch andgel ro Jesus
---francis on 6/25/12


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David one common tactic of the dishonest is to attempt to twist what has been written. I quoted Hebrews 10:5 to show that Jesus Christ was preexistent, and had a body prepared for Him. It should be obvious to blind Freddy this Scripture was not given to show Jesus is God (which He is) but to show firstly that He became flesh, the Son of man.

You have acknowledged the truth of this by quoting 1 John 4:2, giving support to what I wrote.

Why did you try to twist what I wrote David?

Colossians 1:16 confirms that Jesus Christ, the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) is indeed the eternal, uncreated Creator God of everything which has even been created!
---Warwick on 6/25/12


francis, the abolished o.t. law cannot save you, instead become free and alive in Jesus. Also NONE of the archangels or other heavenly creatures which Almighty God Jesus has created for himself IS himself. Jesus is No archangel, for Jesus is The Creator whom made the archangels. Jesus descending "with" the voice of the archangel means the archangel and the heavenly hosts are descending "with" Jesus, it does not mean Jesus himself "has" the archangels voice, but "with", "together with" him. A forerunner is not The progenitor, John the Baptist heralded Jesus' arrival, John was Not Jesus. Likewise the archangel announces the coming of the King and sounds the trumpet, but the angel is not the King.
---Eloy on 6/25/12


'Charles Russell, learned from her (Ellen White) teachings'- MarkV.

This is not true. This is a ridiculous statement unsupported by any historical reference. Charles Russell did not 'learn' from Ellen White.

Charles Russell did attend a Second Adventist meeting in his search for the truth as he did in attending other meetings of other religious groups but he certainly did not join the 'Adventist' movement.

Jehovah's Witnesses agree the Bible does not teach eternal damnation in hellfire and that the dead according to Jesus are in a state of 'sleep' (Jo.11:11). But that does not make JW's akin to 'Adventism' anymore than trinitarian belief in the trinity make all trinitarian religions Adventists.
---David8318 on 6/25/12


---micha9344 on 6/24/12
You cannot make a good arguement with this at all, you are relying on the word " angel" to show that Jesus is not THE ARCH ANGEL and that is is higher than the angels.

Here is how i make void your argurment
THE ANGEL OF THE LORD, who is Jesus, is also higher than the angels who are created.

so the phrase " being made higher than the angels" does not take into account that Jesus is The ANGEL of the Lord. Meaning Jesus is also a messenger of the lord.

That is what makes Jesus as THE ANGEL OF THE LORD also THE ARCH ANGEL who is Like the father ( Michael)
---francis on 6/25/12


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'accept the obvious'- Warwick.

Nowhere in Hebrews 10:5 does it say Jesus is also 'fully God' or 'fully spirit'. Jesus is only 'fully God' in Warwick's understanding.

Hebrews 10:5-7 identifies the role of Christ in providing release from sin and death through his sacrifice. It does not identify Christ as being both 'God' and 'flesh'.

1 John 4:2, 'Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God' (NIV). To teach Christ came in anything other than flesh is the 'antichrist' teaching.

1 Peter 3:18, '(Christ) being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit' (ASV). Jesus returned to spirit life only after being put to death in the flesh.
---David8318 on 6/25/12


'one of the preincarnation titles of the GOD the son was michael head of all the angels'- Samuel.

Jude 9 says, 'Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil...' (KJV) clearly identifies Michael as 'the archangel', not simply 'head of' all the angels.

Unless SDA's believe 'GOD the son' went through some transformation 'post-incarnation' (?), therein lies the SDA contradiction- SDA's believe God is a created angel, ie 'Michael'.

In addition to the 144,000 'sealed' ones of Revelation 7:4, Rev.7:9,10 also identify a 'Great Multitude' who gain salvation but who are not spoken of as being 'born again' or 'sealed' with the holy spirit in the same manner as the 144,000. (2 Cor.1:22, Gal.6:16) Both view Christ as leader.
---David8318 on 6/25/12


Heb 1:4-5 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
"Elohim" in Hebrew, "Ho Theos" in the Greek Septuagint.
Hebrews 1 clearly states that the Son was not nor is not an angel and that the Son is God (ho Theos).
---micha9344 on 6/24/12


As a Seventh day Adventist we believe along with a number of non adventist scholars that one of the preincarnation titles of the GOD the son was michael head of all the angels.

The Seventh day Sabbath and Conditionalism were both taught before Ellen G. White was born.

Seventh day Adventist teach to be a Christian you must be born again by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT which saves you by grace alone. The JW do not believe they in general are born again as only their leaders the 144,000 are born again.
---Samuel on 6/24/12


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David, Jesus is fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh) as Scripture testifies. The only problem lies in your refusal to accept the obvious.

See Hebrews 10:5 'Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "....a body you prepared for me."' This can only mean that a human body (the son of man via Mary) was prepared for God the Son, who is Spirit. Fully God, fully man.

Colossians 1:16 confirms He is Creator God, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

Relevantly Nehemiah 9:6 confirms only God is Creator, and to be worshipped.
---Warwick on 6/24/12


SDA's believe the trinity and in a literal six day creative week. That puts the SDA's in close union with trinitarian outfits such as the Christian & Missionary Alliance (C & MA), the RCC and most protestant sects.

Regarding the archangel Michael, SDA's are a contradiction as they believe Jesus is God. So how can Jesus be both a created angel and God? It's the same problem other trinitarians have in trying to explain how Jesus can be both 'fully man' and at the same time 'fully God'. SDA and all other trinitarian groups hold to beliefs that are problematic.

Jehovah's Witnesses differ from trinitarians and SDA's in that JW's believe Jesus is not God, but a created being, God's Son and archangel- Jo.1:34, 1 Thess.4:16.
---David8318 on 6/24/12


Rob, both have their roots in the teachings of E.G. White. Charles Russell, learned from her teachings. And so did the Seventh Day Adventist. Many similarities. You can see that by the teachings of Michael Scheiflers and many others teachings concerning Michael the angel and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. francis here on line does the same thing. He begins by trashing the Spirit of the law, then continues by trying to strip the very deity of Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/12


Rob: This is your blog. It is incumbent upon you to answer responses to your own remarks. You have ignored my response/question, so here it is again:


Rob: "they are the only true church"

For a guy who claims to be a former SDA, you seem to be woefully ignorant of their doctrines. SDA's teach that God's true church has members in ALL Christian denominations. Does your church teach this????

I want an answer!


---jerry6593 on 6/24/12


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If you want to know exactly what SDA teach from a first hand source you may look online at:
1: 27 fundermental beliefs
2: SDA church manual
3: Amazing facts study guides
4: It is written study guides


As to the issue of Ellen G white: Here is a brief listing of some of her books available online:
Acts of the Apostles
Christ's Object Lessons,
The Desire of Ages,
The Great Controversy,
Patriarchs and Prophets
Prophets and Kings,
Steps to Christ

evaluate thier validity for yourself

My favourites are Patriarchs and Prophets,Prophets and Kings, Steps to Christ
These are a great addition to any library
---francis on 6/23/12


---Rob on 6/22/12

Ignorance means not knowing
It is not a derogatory term

All of us are ignorant in some thing, because none of us are all knowing

Remember we spoke about Line up line, here a little there a little

I challenge all to do this with Michael the Arch Angel

look at everything that the bible says about Michael, his titles, his duties, his performances, and look at all that Jesus does, the propechy he fulfil,s his titles, his duties and his performances.

In every case that which is prophecied about MIhcael is fulfilled by Jesus
---francis on 6/22/12


Francis, many times on these blogs you have called people ignorant, idiots, and other derogatory names.

You are showing yourself to be all these things plus more.
---Rob on 6/22/12


---CraigA on 6/22/12
BOTH

Jesus is God, and Jesus is also the Angel of the Lord.

Keep in mind that angel does not mean created being, but rather messenger.

Jesus ( the Angel of God) is the greatest / chief messenger that God has ever sent

So when someone says that Jesus is the ARCH angel, they are saying that Jesus is the greatest or chief messenger of God. It is from ignorance that people will say that Jesus is the chief, or greatest messenger of God and yet not say that Jesus is the Arch Angel

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
---francis on 6/22/12


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Francis, do you believe that Jesus Christ is GOD come in the flesh or do you believe He is a chief angel of God come in the flesh?
---CraigA on 6/22/12


Why would Jesus Christ refer to anyone else as the "Lord"? He IS the LORD! He has no LORD!
---CraigA on 6/21/12
Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,...

is this enough to convince you that the father is refered to as Lord by the son?
---francis on 6/22/12


Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses...


I love how you didnt finish the verse. You know why you didnt? because Michael said "THE LORD REBUKE YOU!"

Why would Jesus Christ refer to anyone else as the "Lord"? He IS the LORD! He has no LORD! He is God come in the flesh. YOu have reduced Christ to that of a powerful angel and not the king of kings of Lord of Lords! That is the spirit of antichrist! That is why you follow a false prophetess!
---CraigA on 6/21/12


Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,

This verse is more support that Michael is Jesus.

This is about who gets Moses body, Jesus or Satan.
keep in mind that ONLY God/ Holy spiit/ Jesus has the power to raise the dead.

What we have here is Michael / Jesus raising Moses

+Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
---francis on 6/21/12


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Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Jesus commands Satan, the archangel Michael contends (argues, fights) with Satan.
It is Michael and Satan who are on equal terms, not Jesus and Satan.....
The President of the United States commands the military, but the generals(archangels) underneath him also command...
Who wins the battle?
---micha9344 on 6/21/12


Keep in mind that the resurrection scripture in only one of about three that shows that whatever is prophecied to be done by Michael, is doen by Jesus

Also the issue of the captain of the Lord's host. Michael is said to lead God's army and Jesus is also said to lead God's army

Michael is prophecied to stand up for God's people during the last days and time of trouble,a nd we see Jesus doing that
---francis on 6/20/12


Dan 10:13 "...and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone ...".

You have stated that the word one is used to describing the first, or most important.

---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12
And that would be correct. It is not translated as one of means one among many, but as first, leader of the army.

the same michael who fought against satan and removed him from heaven is the same michael who now come to fight against a demon
---francis on 6/20/12


and for the record it is NOT AN ARCH ANGEL it is THE ARCH ANGEL
---francis on 6/20/12

Let me show you how wrong your record is.

I do not believe Michael to be the only archangel. You have used Dan 10:13 to describe Michael as the first or chief of the princes or angels.

Dan 10:13 "...and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone ...".

You have stated that the word one is used to describing the first, or most important.

However, you can find the same exact Hebrew word in this verse also:

Gen 21:15 "And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs".
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


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Both are simular & different.If you want to know the actual truth of their doctrines or statement of belief go to their main websites & compare for yourself instead of asking on here where you can get bias & anti opinions. For one thing the SDA go to church on saturday while witnesses are on Sundays.
Also to the other poster about Pastor Charles Russell, yes he did sit in a meeting with them but never joined.He also isn't the founder of the Jw's as Rutherford is, for I am a biblestudent & we study what Russell taught which lines up with the scriptures from the KJV bible,however we donot worship him,but we worship Jesus the son of God our messiah but think of CTRussell as person whom God used.
---womandisciple on 6/20/12


---Steve on 6/20/12
the verse does not say as loud as an arch angel. There is not one single text that says an arch angel voice is louder than jesus'

and for the record it is NOT AN ARCH ANGEL it is THE ARCH ANGEL
---francis on 6/20/12


Not AN archangel
THE arch angel
---francis on 6/20/12

I am sorry to inform you that in the Greek for 1 Thes 4:16 there is no definitive article next to the word archangel that would render the sentence to say THE archangel. Therefore, any article can be used that describes the word, including the word AN.

Actually, it would also be correct to switch the words around and say "with a shout, with the archangel voice and the trumpet of God". Saying it this way definitely shows you that the word archangel is being used as an adjective and not a noun.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


The voice that raises the dead is Jesus. The voice will sound like a cry of command, will be like the trumpet of God, and will be as loud as the voice of an archangel. But it will be Jesus. This verse does not make Jesus a command, a trumpet, or an archangel, and such an interpretation is silly in the extreme.
---Steve on 6/20/12


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Keep in mind that the resurrection scripture in only one of about three that shows that whatever is prophecied to be done by Michael, is doen by Jesus

Also the issue of the captain of the Lord's host. Michael is said to lead God's army and Jesus is also said to lead God's army

Michael is prophecied to stand up for God's people during the last days and time of trouble,a nd we see Jesus doing that
---francis on 6/20/12


Jesus shouts with the volume (voice) of an archangel.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12

Not AN archangel
THE arch angel

Where have you read that the volume of the arch angel be any louder than that of Jesus?

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---francis on 6/20/12


and which voice/ sound raises the dead?
---francis on 6/20/12

It is the SHOUT.

The rest of the phrase in the verse is a description of the shout.

You have made the "archangel" the most important thing in the verse, but it is only used to describe the VOLUME of the shout.

Can you not see allegory when you read it?

Jesus shouts with the volume (voice) of an archangel.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12
and which voice/ sound raises the dead?
---francis on 6/20/12


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then ask WHOSE VOICE is heard that raises the death
---francis on 6/19/12

The key verse is:

1 Thes 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God"

There are two sounds being described in this verse. The shout and the trumpet.

The key phrase for you is between the two sounds. It describes the first sound, not the second. A normal human shout made from the clouds, could not be heard the world over. Only a supernatural sound, the voice of an archangel, could be heard world-wide.

Also, my Jewish friends tell me that the meaning of Micha'el is "who is like El (God)?". The meaning is a question, not a statement.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


Since we are assured that Jesus did NOT go to paradise on the day he died
---francis on 6/19/12

Please provide BCV for this "assurance".

We have very little Scripture that says what happened to Jesus during the three days He was in the earth.

What we can conjecture using Scripture is that Jesus decended into Abraham's bosom and declared the gospel to those in captivity, released them, and then ascended into heaven (1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-9, Eph 4:8-10, Luke 16:19-31).

But this goes against your idea of soul sleep. Abraham's bosom is a "fairy tale" to you.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/20/12


francis warns others of changing God's Word, then moves "jots and tittles" to explain his false doctrine...
HERESY!!
---micha9344 on 6/19/12

LOL punctuation marks were not part of Gods word

I have already given OT and NT texts that say when we die to go to the grave to await the resurrection

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

PAY ATTENTION TO JOB in his FLESH he would see god, not in spirit in flesh
---francis on 6/20/12


Rob: "they are the only true church"

For a guy who claims to be a former SDA, you seem to be woefully ignorant of their doctrines. SDA's teach that God's true church has members in ALL Christian denominations. Does your church teach this????


---jerry6593 on 6/20/12


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Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise-francis on 6/19/12
You will not see francis' corrupt version of Luke 23:43 anywhere, especially in the older translations.
francis warns others of changing God's Word, then moves "jots and tittles" to explain his false doctrine...
HERESY!!
---micha9344 on 6/19/12


---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12
Do you then believe that Lazarous, Tabitha, and Eutychus were dead, when to heaven or paradise and brought back to earth again?

No one believes that.

The bible says:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 the dead in Christ shall rise first:
John 5:28 the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth,
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

If the dead are as the bible says ASLEEP, then they are not in heaven
---francis on 6/19/12


Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"
---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise

Since we are assured that Jesus did NOT go to paradise on the day he died, we can be sure that Jesus was asuring the thief on that day, that one day the thief would be with him in paradise.

But the context which you are adressing where i said " sems dead to me,"is what happens to those in the lake of fire.

I say that they die not burn forever in fire
---francis on 6/19/12


seems very dead to me
---francis on 6/19/12

Are we all discussing the same thing?

I see three time periods discussed in the Bible related to soul sleep:

1. Time in the body.
2. Death until the judgment.
3. After judgment.

What I believe "soul sleep" to be is defined as number 2 above, the time of death until the final judgment. We must also remember that there is no time after the judgment for the unbeliever who suffers the second death.

While sleep is described as death, the words of our Lord Jesus seem to contradict any notion of non-existance in time period 2 above.

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"
---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12


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1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---
Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12

Voice AS of a trumpet
With the trump of God

Maybye you should focus on the "shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL" and compare it to John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth,

then ask WHOSE VOICE is heard that raises the death

VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL or JESUS?

I have already explained trump of God in another blog
---francis on 6/19/12


1790-1870 Second Great Awakening
1823 Joseph Smith visions
1827-1830 JS translating The Book of Mormon
1830 Church of Christ founded(pre-LDS)
1837 JS bank collapses
1838 (LDS) expelled from MO & JS imprisoned
1840 (EGW) family joins the Millerites
1840 George Storrs lead Adventists
1842 Nelson Barbour joins Millerites
6/1844 JS imprisoned and killed
10/1844 The Great Disappointment
1844(afterward) EGW's first vision
1863 SDA founded
1870 CTRussell(18) & dad started a bible study & many writings of Millerites inc. G.Storrs
1876 CTR studies N.Barbour's ideas inc. the prophecy of 4/1878
4/1878 disappointment
1879 (Christian Science) founded--Mary Baker Eddy
1881 (1886) WTS founded
---Micha9344 on 6/19/12


1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCH ANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---francis on 6/18/12

I find this to be very flimsy evidence.

Rev 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet"

Now, is Jesus a trumpet?

Loud voices are described in many ways in Scripture. Such as mighty rushing water, many waters, trumpet blasts, voice of Arch Angels, and voice of a great multitude. Each of these descriptions is meant to describe the great volume not the speaker or the words.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/19/12


let me just add that if you want to know exactly what SDA teach from a first hand source you may look online at:
1: 27 fundermental beliefs
2: SDA church manual
3: Amazing facts study guides
4: It is written study guides
---francis on 6/19/12


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One thing that stands out with me is how Jehovah's Witnesses seem to not consider me a Christian and will stop talking with me if I start to show Bible things that effectively challenge them.

But Seventh-Day Adventists . . . maybe not all . . . can treat me like I am their brother.
---willie_c: on 6/19/12


We have two examples of the lake of fire in the bible, one is the dump outseide of Jerusalem which burned all the time consuming everything in it, the other is Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha,..are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Which tells us that it is the RESULT of the fire that is eternal not that people will burn forever

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. NOT eternal life in fire

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

seems very dead to me
---francis on 6/19/12


Francis, we already know JW's and SDA's believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael.

Thise blog question is what do these two groups have in common and what things are different about them.
---Rob on 6/19/12


Let me help you guys by matching prophecies concerning Michael and Jesus

Daniel 10:21 matches Matthew 24:4-24 ( knowledge and revelation of the future)

Daniel 12:1 matches Revelation 19:11 ( fights for God's people in time of trouble)

Daniel 4:35 matches Joshua 5:14 matches Revelation 12:7 ( leader of the army of God)

1 Thess 4:16 matches Daniel 12:1 and 2 matches John 5:28 -29 ( voice which raises the dead)

WHat throws some people of is the phrase ARCH ANGEL.

Well those who study thebible know that the angel ofthe Lord is also Jesus, he is that CHIEF or ARCH angel and he is also like the father

Michael - who is like God
Arch - Chief, first,
Angel- messenger of God
---francis on 6/19/12


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SDA do not teach "soul sleep." This is what SDA teach:

1 Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried

John 11:11 Our friend Lazarus SLEEPETH, but I go, that I may awake him out of SLEEP. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his DEATH:

If they are ASLEEP in the grave, or the dust, they cannot be in heaven or hell

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth,

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake,

As you see SDA teaching that the dead are asleep is 100% consistant with what the bible teaches
---francis on 6/19/12


\\MICHAEL Who is like God
Arch Angel chief of angel\\

The Son CREATED Michael, francis.

Until you understand this, you are not a Christian.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/12


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth,

Well based on the BIBLE when we die we go to the grave to await the resurrection

The false doctrine is the one that says when we die we go to heaven or lake of fire


1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed,

WAIT A MINUTE, DID PAUL USE SLEEP HERE TO MEAN DEATH THE SAME WAY SDA USE IT?
---francis on 6/18/12


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