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Explain Romans 9:6-7

How do you interpret what the Apostle Paul is teaching in Romans 9:6 and 9:7 considering what Paul said in Romans 11:26? Is Paul contradicting himself?

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Trav, You gave (v. 15) first, then (7).... ---Mark_V. on 7/30/12

(15)First, to make a point,that you missed. GOD can do whatever GOD wants to. Whether you or I like it or not.
You try and change what is unchangeable. You cannot accept that if GOD loves "All" Israel it is a righteous love.
You try and make scripture say what you want out of jealousy. Not understanding there is nothing to be jealous of. You've been blessed with Israels blessings. But despise their name/place in scripture, seldom utilizing properly. A "tell".
Psalm 98:3
He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
---Trav on 7/30/12


Trav, You gave (v. 15) first, then (7) but if we read it correctly, (v.7) came first. Those who are children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted as the seed. And He goes on to show what the word of promise is, by giving the story of Rebecca who conceived two children by one man. Both having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls. God's choice of Jacob resides solely in His own sovereign plan, a perfect example of election unto salvation. God has chosen some Jews and some Gentiles but not all for salvation. Unrelated to any human effort and is based only on the prerogative of God who makes His selection.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12


The chapter explains itself.
Esau although a twin of Jacob is not called.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Any modern Church Doctrine stupid enough to rearrange scripture to build their own end/logic, can be as faulty as Esau,and of the same fate.
---Trav on 7/27/12


Mark_V. on 7/21/12..." who received the Law in Israel. Jews and Gentile who lived there."

Hi Mark. Keep swinging partner.

Gentiles were not allowed in Jerusalem, or to worship with Jews in the Holy Land, unless they were proselytes to the faith and circumcised. Even then, from my understanding, they were limited in participation.

Being under the Law requires submission to a Jewish sponsor and the rite of circumcision. Gentiles under law are few, and exeedingly rare.

The Law applies to no one else but the Jew. It is irrelevent to the nations.
---Phil on 7/22/12


Trav, as I said, you did a lot of ducking and weaving. The passage is talking about those who received the Law in Israel. Jews and Gentile who lived there. It never mentioned a tribe. There was Gentiles who never received the law from other nations. "sinned without the law" these Gentiles who never had the opportunity to know God's moral law will be judged on their disobedience in relationship to their limited knowledge in their hearts. "Judge by the law" The Jews and many Gentiles who had access to God's moral law will be accountable for their greater knowledge since they had access to the law.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/12




Trav, you yourself did a lot of docking and weaving concerning (Romans 2:12,13).
---Mark_V. on 7/20/12
Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,

These are pretty easy, don't know why I'd ever duck them.

Only Israel had the Law. She was Judged by the Law. She was put away under the Law. She was redeemed through the fulfillment of the marriage Law of widow hood. The bridegroom comes. Because of her the world continued and drinks the overflow of her fulfilled cup of blessings.
---Trav on 7/20/12


Trav, you yourself did a lot of docking and weaving concerning (Romans 2:12,13). Because now you give a whole story about Judian's and other tribes, and none of that is mention in those passages at all. So you misrepresented the passages altogether. The context never mentions who the people were only that they received the law, because Jews and Gentiles (doesn't give the tribes) who had access to God's moral law will be accountable for their greater knowledge of the law given in (Exo. 20:1 ff). see (Matt. 11:20-23: Heb. 6:4-6: 10:26-31).
---Mark_V. on 7/20/12


And I do know to whom the gospel was first given, Israel, and I do know they have rejected it.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/12

You duck and weave but, your own statements are posted.

Israel does not consist of just Judeans. Christ plainly states who the lost sheep were. The "House of Israel" lost! And where you are blind. You are not alone. U r joined by most doctrines sending forth their seminarian indoc'd wolf pups. promotiong these doctrines.
If Christ was looking for the lost sheep the prophets prophecied about (Matt 15:24)....why do these Wool Cloaked wolves not see? Because they are not intended too. Wolves cannot be lambs or sheep. Wolves eat sheep. You assist without realizing not understanding scripture.
---Trav on 7/20/12


Romans 1-2, Before the Law of Moses:

For as many as have sinned without law, etc. - They, the Gentiles, who shall be found to have transgressed against the mere light of nature, or rather, that true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world, John 1:9, shall not come under the same rule with those, the Jews, who have in addition to this enjoyed an extraordinary revelation, but they shall be dealt with according to the inferior dispensation, under which they lived: while those, the Jews, who have sinned against the law - the positive Divine revelation granted to them, shall be judged by that law, and punished proportionably to the abuse of such an extraordinary advantage.
---kathr4453 on 7/14/12


Trav, you said to my answer of (Romans 2:12),

"Here is where you are scripturally blind. You are blind to the fact that Judah does not equal all Israel. Never has never will in scripture."

I never mentione Judah, or any other tribe of Israel, or that Judah was all Israel. I really don't know where you get that from that passage-
"But as many as have sinned in the law will be judge by the law"
I don't see Judah there. What I see is that many Jews and Gentiles had access to the moral laws of God given in (Exo. 20:1ff) and will be accountable for their greater knowledge (Matt. 11:20-23: Heb. 6:4-6: 10:26-31).
---Mark_V. on 7/14/12




---Mark_V. on 7/14/12

MarkV, the Moral Law, that is the law of conscience IS NOT the Law of MOSES.

If you say they are the same, then you are agreeing with the SDA's that they all were required to keep the Sabbath Day from the very beginning.

You are so confused!

Romans 5 state from Adam to Moses there was NO LAW, that is the Law of MOSES. YET they has according to Genesis 1-2 a Moral Law of Conscience...They seered their own conscience's leading to a world wide flood where they all perished.

They could have repented, as Noah preached for 125 years.
---kathr4453 on 7/14/12


Mark V. "Phil, you give a passage and do not explain it and then say, "now what."

Is it not fair? to allow God to illuminate His word, which is very clear in Ro 2:14? I believe that you will arrive at correct understanding without my aid. You are the best Mark V.
And I believe you to be tightly connected to our Father, who bestows wisdom without partiality.
---Phil on 7/14/12


"And as many as have sinned in the law will be Judge by the law" ( Second part of Rom. 2:12)
---Mark_V. on 7/14/12

Here is where you are scripturally blind. You are blind to the fact that Judah does not equal all Israel. Never has never will in scripture.
The Northern house was put away Divorced from GOD by GOD.
Hosea and other prophets foretell the remarriage promise.
YAHSHUA's death made the New Covenant Possible.
Now all Israel might be saved as found in Romans.

Heb 8:8...House of Israel.....and Judah
---Trav on 7/14/12


Phil, you give a passage and do not explain it and then say, "now what."
"For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law" ( first part of Rom. 1:12).
The Gentiles who never had the opportunity to know God's moral law (Ex. 20:1) will be judged on their disobedience in relationship to their limited knowledge see (Rom. 1:19,20).
"And as many as have sinned in the law will be Judge by the law" ( Second part of Rom. 2:12) The Jews that had the law. This Jews and many Gentiles who had access to God's moral Law will be accountable for thier greater knowledge of the Law (Matt. 11:20-23: Heb. 6:4-6: 10:26-31).
---Mark_V. on 7/14/12


"All unbelievers who do not believe in the Messiah, are under the Law "---Mark_V on 7/13/12

That's not what Romans 4 says. From Adam to Moses there was no LAW, yet we know there were unbelievers as was Cain. So exactly what LAW are you referring to? The Law of Conscience?

OK then the Law of Conscience PROVES that even teh depraved have a conscience to know right from wrong,exercising free will.
---kathr4453 on 7/13/12


All unbelievers.. are under the Law whether they believe it or not, that's why they are condemned.

"because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"
---Mark_V on 7/13/12

Mark, you are soo cool!

Perhaps God meant to say, "because he has not believed in the Law and Prophets".

I prefer it like it is, condemned for not believing on Him, Who the Father sent, nothing else mentioned here but unbelief as the crime.

"All unbelievers who do not believe in the Messiah, are under the Law "---Mark_V on 7/13/12

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law... these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Now what?
---Phil on 7/13/12


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bro. Phil, I'm suprised by your answers. you said,

"When Paul uses the word "brethren", it most often is because he is speaking to Hebrews under His ministry." What?
His speaking to the brothers in Christ in the Galatian Church (Gal. 1:1) His not out in the world speaking to the lost.
You said:

"I doubt that any gentiles ever wanted to be under the law 4:21,"
All unbelievers who do not believe in the Messiah, are under the Law whether they believe it or not, that's why they are condemned.
"He who believes in Me is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:18.
---Mark_V on 7/13/12


Trav, The passages you spoke of are in Jer, 31:31-34. What I was speaking of is what Jesus Christ did at the Cross.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/12

These are declarations and defining scriptures pointing out that you have no idea what you proclaim. Openly you proclaim yourself greater than these and their authors.
Jer 31 and Heb 8 is proclamiming/explaining and confirming the same event. The New Covenant sealed by death of the "testator" and with who.
The fact that you would change scripture to make a doctrine is publically evident and personally dangerous. But if "one" has no fear of the prophets or the declarations of Christ himself....then who could reach "one" such as this? None.
---Trav on 7/13/12


Mark_V. on 7/11/12 "Phil, as we know that the Galatians were Gentiles"
The Galatian ecclesia had Hellenist amongst them as well. Hellenist were Jewish expatriates outside the land of promise.

When Paul uses the word "brethren", it most often is because he is speaking to Hebrews under His ministry.

I doubt that any gentiles ever wanted to be under the law 4:21, though the Hellenist Jews among them could easily be drawn back to it and away from grace.

None of your passages show the promises to the
Fathers coming to us. Only that we would be blessed through Abraham's faith.

No land, no priesthood, no holy nation. No Jerusalem for us. Our allotment is with Him among the celestials.
---Phil on 7/12/12


Phil, as we know that the Galatians were Gentiles, celtic people from France who migrated to Asia Minor. And when Paul spoke to them he said,

"Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are children of Promise. But as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is not." (Gal. 4:28,29).
And in (Gal. 3:8,9) "The Scriptures foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith" So we know that the Gentiles were included in the promises.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/12


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Fiesty are we?
God called Israel lost sheep Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep David, a type of Jesus said in Ps 119:176 . I have gone astray like a lost sheep. God honored that assesment and used it in Matt. 15:24.

The Gentiles have never been part of the promises to the "Fathers". At best crumbs were our lot.

Mt 15:26 It is not meet to take the children's bread (the offer of the Kingdom), and to cast [it] to dogs. Gentiles on earth will always be servant to Israel.
The Body of Christ is in heaven, not on earth.

You supply Eph. 2:11-16 as a reference. Very Good. It is their failure that opened the door to us, the nations, so that we have access now, the wall of separation gone.
---Phil on 7/11/12


//To be saved BY GRACE is to be saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Romans 9= Israel's PAST,
Romans 10= Israel's PRESENT
and RomanS 11 = Israel's FUTURE.//

Amen
---michael_e on 7/11/12


Correction? A parrot understands not what she says ..., just repeats!

Page 170/171:

"... which sees God having one faithful Israel throughout history composed of true Israelites and true Gentiles who believe in the Messiah (either looking forward to His cross in the Old Testament days, or looking back to His all-sufficient atonement). Biblically speaking, we should never exhalt Jewish people (less we build damnable pride in their hearts) or put them down (exhibiting deadly pride ourselves). Read Romans 11:17-23). We are all equal at the nail-pierced feet of the Crucified One."


"End Time Delusions: The Rapture, the Antichrist, Israel, and the End of the World"
Steve Wohlberg
---Nana on 7/11/12


Jam 3:8-10 But the tongue can no man tame, [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
You are making alot of accusations, Kathr.
Are you sure which Spirit you have within you?
---micha9344 on 7/11/12


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Mark_V. on 7/11/12


MarkV, you are the only person here who has no Bible and doesn't even know or read the Bible to even KNOW what each chapter of any book is talking about much less any book.

Don't you know we don't just use johnny one note verses, but CHAPTERS and even WHOLE BOOKS.

Deal with it!

I can tell you EXACTLY what each chapter and verse of Every book is about. But you can't? Is that because you are not as well versed and knowledgeable as you claim to be??
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


Kathr, you want to correct me, give me chapter and verse, don't just say, Romans 9, or Hebrews 3. Anyone can throw any number they want, but it does not speak of the context of the passages. You need to make a better effort. I take correction, I sure don't want to teach anything that is wrong. But you have done nothing right so far. All just a lot of talk.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/12


MarkV what you gave me,Covenant Calvinism, AKA Replacement Theology is a lie from HELL.

I've already CORRECTED YOU in sayings:

Romans 9= Israel's PAST,
Romans 10= Israel's PRESENT
and RomanS 11 = Israel's FUTURE.

I've already CORRECTED YOU there is no such thing in all the Covenants listed in scripture, as one called a COVENANT OF GRACE where God has picked people's names out of a hat to save some and send the rest tio hell.

So get it through that Texas Latino head of yours that I along, with many here simply find your doctrine A LIE FROM HELL!

How much More CORRECTION will you need MarkV to stop bullying those who don't swallow your doctrine?
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


There is not one place in the Everlasting Covenant/Abrahamic Covenant teaching total depravity, rebirthing?? of your sinful old man dead spirit before you can believe, God limiting the number who will be saved (that's a CULT FOLKS) (The JW have done it etc,)

The Bogus Covenant of Grace is not GRACE at all, but a revision of even the meaning of GRACE.

To be saved BY GRACE is to be saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IT does NOT mean that God has the sovereign right to save who He wants and send teh rest to hell.

If that's the way it is, then there is no need for Jesus death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


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Markv, I have NOT rejected the words of Jesus, or God's Word, or Paul's doctrine of TRUE GRACE according to the Mystery, that is Christ IN YOU, of which you have stated before, as I have posted your own words again and again where you said Jesus REALLY ISN'T in you and the Holy Spirit REALLY isn't in you. NOW you deny this here and I will re post your words AGAIN .

Markv, it's YOUR TWISTED interpretation of God's word I reject, your one verse wonders taken totally out of context to prove your own false doctrine. We tell you to read before and after, CORRECTING YOU.

Even Mormons have twisted Jesus words and Paul's words.

However we all can read God's Word and the Holy Spirit is our teacher, correcter...NOT YOU!
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


Kathr, you said about me,

"Now MarkV wants to scream and cuss and call names,"

I have not cuss one word in over 23 years. And I called you a liar because you just lied again. Instead of condemning, as so many do when they do not have a Scriptural answer, why not just put your point down and give the passages so that others and I can read the context. That is easy to do. There is no need for making things up.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/12


God has had many covenants with us(man),

After the flood.(The rainbow is the token God will never destroy man with a flood again)
The covenant with Abraham.(Includes his seed after him)

Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
All leaves out none who can be saved. Obedience is required for grace to save
billy9676
---billy9676 on 7/10/12


Kathr, I give you the words of Jesus and you reject them. I give you the words of Paul, you reject them. You have been condemning the Truth since we met. You are not going to change until you are born of the Spirit. There has to be a change in you to see and understand Truth. You give opinions with a mixture of context. Jesus did not come to save the goats, only the Sheep, for they hear His voice and follow Him. That is why He layed down His life, for them.
"But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name," Now listen to who they are " who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, "but of God"
---Mark_V. on 7/10/12


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Covenant theology AKA Replacement Theology is based on the theory that God has only one covenant with men (the covenant of grace) and only one people, represented by the Old and New Testament saintsone people, one church and one plan for all. These beliefs require the adherents of covenant theology to interpret prophecy in a nonliteral way. Those who hold to covenant theology believe that there is, and has always been, only one people of God. They believe that Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is Israel in the New Testament. The promises of land, many descendants, and blessing to Israel in the Old Testament have been spiritualized and applied to the Church in the New Testament.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/12


Now MarkV wants to scream and cuss and call names, BUT MarkV promotes Covenant Theology ALA Covenant Calvinism, AKA REPLACEMENT Theology.

It's MarkV who doesn't know what he believes or is talking about, but it absolutely is what he believes and has stated this belief hhere over and over.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/12


SO MarkV , LET me now CORRECT YOU AGAIN!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/10/12


Kathr, you asked why I correct you, the reason is you spread lies about the Bible and about me, and many fall for your lies, those not grounded in the faith. I gave Phil Jesus words, and Paul's words, you reject them because of your preconcived believes.
You say I believe in "replacement theology" and you have no clue what it means. It teaches that "the Church" has categorically "replaced Israel." Which is not true. Neither is it "separation theology" (dispensationalism's opposite error), which teaches the unbiblical notion that God's Israel and God's Church are two distinct entities-and never the twain shall meet.
Rather, the truth is an "Israel of God" theology (Gal. 6:14-16)-
---Mark_V. on 7/10/12


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Kathr 2: Concerning the "Israel of God" theology in Galatians 6:14-16, which sees God having one faithful Israel throughout history composed of true Israelites and true Gentiles who believe in the Messiah (either looking forward to His cross in the Old Testament days, or looking back to His all-sufficient atonement). Biblically speaking, we should never exhalt Jewish people (less we build damnable pride in their hearts) or put them down (exhibiting deadly pride ourselves). Read Romans 11:17-23). We are all equal at the nail-pierced feet of the Crucified One.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/12


//They Body of Christ will not rule there. They will be in heaven with Him.
---Phil on 7/7/12//

AMEN
---michael_e on 7/7/12

Another AMEN here too.

Phil, MarkV does not believe in the Rapture of the CHURCH, and makes no destinction between the Church and Earthly Israel.

He believes God has done away with Israel and we are now Israel.

So you must know this to understand where MarkV is coming from.

It's called replacement theology...
---kathr4453 on 7/10/12


Phil 2: Paul spoke the same to beliving Gentiles, (Eph. 2:11-16),
"Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-who were called uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision made in the flesh by hands-that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation..to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the Cross"
---Mark_V. on 7/10/12


Phil, thanks for the discussion. here is the passage (Matt. 15:24),
"But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
Only the lost sheep. Now who are the sheep? The elect of God who were lost. They were not the goats. And who is the elect? All who were chosen from the foundation of the world to salvation. And who hears Jesus words? His sheep. At that time it was only Jews who were His sheep, but concerning Gentiles He says,
"Therefore My Father loves Me, and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock and One Shepherd" (John 10:15,16).
---Mark_V. on 7/9/12


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Mark V, I appreciate your contest. The maginification of God's word is important to me. You lend aid that end. Jesus was sent by God to Israel, not us the nations Mt 10:6 15:24 Ro 15:8 2Ti 2:8 It was only because He was rejected by His own, that Paul was commissioned to us. The Abrahamic covenant will be kept by God, I assure you. Til then, the ecclesia out of the nations, the Body, not the bride, is the focus.
---Phil on 7/8/12


Phil, I believe your wrong, you say

". Israel is God's chosen race, and will be ruling over the nations when He returns Or else He lied Mt 19:28 They Body of Christ will not rule there. They will be in heaven with Him"

Jesus doesn't lie, He is without sin. But He was not talking about Israel ruling nations. He was answering Peter concerning the Apostles who had followed Him (v.28). Them and
"all who had left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother, or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundrethfold, and inherit eternal life" (v.29). Referring to believers. Israel is never mentioned. The Church of Christ consist of all believers through history, one body.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/12


//They Body of Christ will not rule there. They will be in heaven with Him.
---Phil on 7/7/12//

AMEN
---michael_e on 7/7/12


Abram, later called Abraham, was a Syrian, of the nations. In faith, he responded to God's call, all who respond by faith are sons of Abraham. Circumcision came to him through his unbelief. It was a sign to confirm the covenant in spite of unbelief. Israel is God's chosen race, and will be ruling over the nations when He returns Or else He lied Mt 19:28 They Body of Christ will not rule there. They will be in heaven with Him.
---Phil on 7/7/12


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Chria, thanks.
The passages you gave, we find out that Israel was God's chosen nation, yet within that nation not all descendants of Abraham were of the promise. Abraham's physical descendants were not of the promise. only the children of Pomise were considered Abraham's children. "Those who were not My people, I will now call My people" Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God's standards, they were made right with God, and it was by faith that this took place. But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in Him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/12


MarkV, on 7/2:"Brother Chris, thank you." Youre welcome Mark, but I must let you know that Im not brother Chris, but chria9396. The s instead of an a: is a typo Ive made several times. If there is a Chris9396, I apologize for the misuse of the name.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/12. His beloved are His children, I agree, but note the I WILL/were not, was not, and shall/YE ARE NOT,
shall they be,followed by WHOSOEVER.
"I WILL call them my people, which WERE NOT my people, and her beloved, which WAS NOT beloved." And IT SHALL COME TO PASS, that in the place where it was said unto them, YE ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, there shall THEY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD
WHOSOEVER believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Comments?
---chria9396 on 7/4/12


Trav, I believe because you are a Jew, you believe salvation is only for Jews. To this day the Jews still reject Christ. And so long as they do, there is no salvation for them. No free pass. The passages you spoke of are in Jer, 31:31-34. What I was speaking of is what Jesus Christ did at the Cross. The passage in Jeremiah 31 do not speak of Jesus Christ for He had not come yet. I was speaking what happen at the Cross. You are still in the Old Testament, I have moved on to the New. And I do know to whom the gospel was first given, Israel, and I do know they have rejected it. I also know that without Christ they have no salvation, for salvation is found only through Christ Jesus.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/12


Trav, Whatever wall you are talking about was in the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. 6/29/12

Well,ur theo-logic is unwitnessed. Foundationally unsupported as scripture points out thousands of times. You covertly and perhaps blindly side step the people the covenant was made too originally and then "Re-Newed" with a second time to situate yourself. Hebrews is second witness of the New Testament regarding the "New" covenant.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with "them", he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the "house of Israel" and with the house of "Judah":
We can all worship GOD...but, living in Truth with... is freedom.
---Trav on 7/4/12


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Many forget that JESUS was a Jew and that Christianity is based on Judaism.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/3/12

Based on Judaism? Not so.
He was Judean technically was looking for his family.
Matt10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Judeans...his own..received him not. For 2,000 yrs. The Nth house did and is. Truth always has multiple/unifying witnesses giving light to those strong enough to drink.

Opinion= Weak batteries pushing the light. Ever notice how a weak battery gets hot?
---Trav on 7/4/12


Good point Mark the church and Israel are one since the seperation was broken down.

Many forget that JESUS was a Jew and that Christianity is based on Judaism. Most of our Bible is the Old Testament which is able to make us wise unto salvaton. 2 tim 3:16
---Samuelbb7 on 7/3/12


Brother Chris, thank you. I was referring to the wall Jesus Christ brought down. The devision between Israel and the Gentiles. Those who follow Israel even today, expect all Israel to be saved at some point in time. They could be if they have faith in Christ, It better be before the Second Coming because after that there is no more chances no more hope. The Church which is all believers will be taken up to be with the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/12


Then of course theres the rebuilding/restoring of walls/broken walls as in Isaiah 58,Is 60, Amos 9, so much to seek out. Walls destroyed, walls rebuilt, must make sure which wall is which, torn down or built up.

MarkV on 6/25, Thanks for your comments. I wrote a response to you, but it's not posted. I will attempt to find notes and post soon (?)
---chris9396 on 6/29/12


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Trav, I was talking about what Jesus Christ did on the Cross. Whatever wall you are talking about was in the Old Testament. I'm sure God broke down many walls then. The wall I'm talking about is the wall that separated the Jews and the Gentiles concerning the gospel of Christ. Paul talking to Gentiles who were once
"Gentiles in the flesh who were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, Now in Christ Jesus had been brought near by the blood of Christ." (Eph. 11:13). Paul had began the ministry of the gospel to the Gentiles that Jesus chose for him to do, found in (Acts 9:15).
---Mark_V. on 6/29/12


Paul declared that Christ had broken down the middle wall of separation to create in Himself one new man from the two.
---Mark_V. on 6/25/12

The word "And" is a unifying clue for those looking for pieces this mysterious wall. Found in a covenant scripture.

Heb 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel "AND" with the house of Judah:

There was a wall between the Northern House and the Southern house of Judah. A wall of separation. The Northern house of ten was put away....divorced. Death, of the husband could break this wall of law. And did. Jer 31:31 foretold the unfold....
---Trav on 6/29/12


Mark E, I agree with you. The Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost fell only on the Jews, 3,000 of them (Acts 2:5,22,36,41,46). The early church in Jerusalem was Jewish. Then the Church expanded into the Roman world, the question was asked, "Is our Messiah only for us? What about the Gentiles?" Then unexpectely, God Spirit fell on the non-Jews (Acts 10:44,45). Finally the Spirit of the Lord broke through the fog and revealed what had been accomplished by the Messiah. The wall between the two had come down. Years later Paul declared that Christ had broken down the middle wall of separation to create in Himself one new man from the two. (Eph. 2:11-16).
---Mark_V. on 6/25/12


....But now, the Israel is partially blinded so that we Gentiles might be grafted in.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/21/12

Judah and 1/2 of Benjamin could retain the married name of Israel. Never being divorced.
Judah hasn't accepted yet but, her extended family is/has.
Seen more clearly for some,translating the latin word "Gentiles", which means "nations" or "ethnos"...referring typically to "divorced" Israel.
Are 13 distinct sons of Israel and after the divorce 10 didn't carry the married name of Israel anymore.
"All Israel" now has opportunity through the death, freedom from the marriage law and sacrifice.

Why have 12 Apostles...if only Judah is Israel?
---Trav on 6/24/12


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Chris, what you wrote from Scripture is awesome. You said
"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED for the seed."
Christians reading the word should understand that not everyone in the world are God's people, or His children. Then you said,
" "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved."
His beloved are only those who are His children, the others are not beloved, He says,
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame "before Him in Love,"
In love He chose us believers.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/12


Aka. I suppose you're right.
---Catholicus on 6/24/12


catholicus, when i tell some people my name is joseph, they say, "do you spell it, 'Joesph'?"

you cannot make any assumptions these days based on spelling.
---aka on 6/23/12


Aka, if I were a she, the name would be Catholica.
---Catholicus on 6/23/12


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Mark V, I was originally just making an offhand response to the blog question. I wasn't trying to start a discussion. Whether or not there are contradictions in the bible makes absolutely no difference to me.
---Catholicus on 6/23/12


Catholicus, you said I have rationalized all the contradictions yet you give no contradictions that you say I rationalized. How can I rationalize something I don't see? Those are big words when you don't even give one.
Look, if you give one or two, you are not wasting my time. In fact I could learn something today.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/12


Mark V, no offense taken. I am sure you have rationalized for yourself all the contradictions, so i won't take up your time or mine discussing them with you.
---Catholicus on 6/23/12


Catholicus, it just seem that with your name, you had pride in it to give youself that name. So you say you are not Catholic, ok, I buy that, I will take your word for it. Sorry if I insulted you.

Now to the question, where are the contradictions? That is really the point. Not what denomination you are. You said there was and I would like to hear them if you are willing to give them, if not that is ok, you have the right to say what you want.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/12


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catholic means universal. Catholic is a referent to the Catholic church. Catholicus is a screen name and if you pay attention to what he/she writes, he/she has catholic views that are not necessarily of the Catholic church.

(my guess is he and not she.)
---aka on 6/23/12


Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This doe snot mean that evrey israelites will be saved. But rather all whoa re saved are israel and will be saved by Jesus
---francis on 6/23/12


Mark V, I have never once said that I am a Catholic or said anything to support Roman Catholicism. My name here is generic.
---Catholicus on 6/23/12


Catholicus, you said there was contradictions in the Bible, can you give them? I think when you make that statement it is because you don't agree on the answers. Is God's Word contradicting? If it is give an example.
You must mean it contradicts your theology as a Catholic, is that correct?
---Mark_V. on 6/23/12


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//When contradictions are found in the bible, they can always be rationalized away. It's called "theology."//

More precisely it is called "systematic theology."

What one does is black out, ignore, the verses that don't fit the "system," and then focus on the verses that do fit whatever the system they prefer.

Thought for the day. Is it possible for God's world to bigger than a world we humans can understand?
---Rod4Him on 6/23/12


When contradictions are found in the bible, they can always be rationalized away. It's called "theology."
---Catholicus on 6/22/12


They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED for the seed. EVEN US, WHOM HE HATH CALLED He saith "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved." And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, THERE SHALL THEY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:23-26

THE MOST HIGH divided to the nations their inheritance, the LORD'S PORTION IS HIS PEOPLE,
---Chris9396 on 6/22/12


Trey, when Paul said, all Israel will be saved (Rom. 11:26) he didn't mean that at some point every Jewish person would find salvation, for in the same chapter he wrote
"If" by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" (v.14). in the same chapter, Paul declared
"And they (individual Jewish people) also, "if" they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in" (v.23). There is that word "if".
We have two Israel's mentioned. An "Israel after the flesh" (1 Cor. 10:18) and an "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) made up of Jewish people and Gentiles who believe in the Messiah found in (Eph. 2:11-16)
---Mark_V. on 6/22/12


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Note Rom 9:6,7 that not all Israel is Israel. Also note it refers to "seed".(Also Rom 9:7)

Rom 2:28 tells us who a true Jew is. They have circumcision of the heart.

Rom 4:13 "For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

Gal 3:29 "And if you are Christs, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So Rom 11:26 is not contradicted. Not all who claim to be of Israel are Israel. Only the true Jews (anyone believing on Jesus) are Jews. And ALL Israel shall be saved.
---Haz27 on 6/21/12


...What Mark has just written is what I believe to be a great answer!!!! :)
---richard on 6/21/12


Again, context, context.

No contradiction, more in-depth explanation.

The passage in Romans 11 has discusses the remnant or elect and how God preserved Israel (spiritually) using the remnant or elect.

But now, the Israel is partially blinded so that we Gentiles might be grafted in. Yet we are still supported by the root, who is of Israel.

And after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all of Israel will be saved. All the elect, all the remnant, and all the grafted in ones. All the branches supported by the root.

This does not mean ALL of Israel will be saved, just as John 3:16 does not mean that ALL the world will be saved.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/21/12


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