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How Did God Speak In OT

Did God in His holiness in the Old Testament speak to man directly? Or did He have a Mediator in the Old Testament? Please give reason and Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 6/29/12
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MarkV: That was so lame as to be beneath even you. The high Priest did not institute the seventh-day Sabbath - God did at Creation. God COMMANDED its rememberance by voice and by writing it with His own finger in stone to Hebrews and gentiles (mixed multitude) at Mt. Sinai. You cannot continue to call yourself a Bible-believing Christian and ignore its clear teaching on this subject.

In the judgement, if I am wrong, I'll simply plead "but Lord, I was simply following your Word." What will you plead if you are wrong?


---jerry6593 on 10/10/12


MarkV, I would expect nothing less from you the heretic.

You claim Jesus was begotten twice. "THIS DAY" have I begotten you, states a particular time. Therefore your heretical view states Jesus was begotten twice...

Begotten is not a title Mr. Heretic. Begotten means BIRTHED. So you Mr. Heretic state Jesus was Birthed twice, ..once as what, a Spirit? and then again as fully God Fully Man?

Or are you calling God a Liar when He clearly states in Hebrews, "THIS DAY".

Tell us WHAT DAY that was Mr. Heretic.

You said JESUS always Existed. Jesus was the name Given to the Begotten Son born of the Virgin Mary. There was never a "THIS DAY" before His Incarnation, Mr.Heretic.
---kathr4453 on 10/10/12


Jerry, you say,

" and it should occur to you that ONLY God can make a day holy - not you or anyone else. God did not command "pick a day and rest", He was very specific that we remember to keep the ONLY day that He made holy."
God told Israel.
"The High Priest was responsible for declaring the holy convocations in Leviticus 23. The seventh
day Sabbath and the Set-Apart days were declared according to the scriptural calendar which the
High Priest had determined. He declared the New Year, weekly Sabbaths, Months, and Holy Convocations, for Israel only."
God did not set Saturday Sabbath. And Jesus Christ is now our High Priest. You still follow the the old priest sabbaths.
---Mark_V. on 10/9/12


Kathr, you do not know what you are talking about now. In order to argue over and over you resort to lies, name calling slurs, and slanderous remarks, even make up things I never said with,

"And you have chosen to introduce the RCC concept of Christ, that the begotten Son of God ALWAYS EXISTED AS A MAN."

At no time did I ever say that the begotten Son of God existed as a man" The RCC does not believe that either. The eternal Son of God did not receive His human body until He was born of the Holy Spirit. He was always the Begotten Son of God, no one else was is or will be.
---Mark_V. on 10/9/12


MarkV, I can call you a heretic when you bring heretical views to your answers. And you have many times. Heretical views are those which do not adhere to the assentials of the Christian faith. And you have chosen to introduce the RCC concept of Christ, that the begotten Son of God ALWAYS EXISTED AS A MAN. Your views do not conform to the essentials of the Christian faith. So you are a heretic because you teach that view.
---kathr4453 on 10/9/12




MarkV: "Jerry, I have taken the time to read Scripture"

Then you must have noticed that the Sabbath day was instituted long before there was a Jew so that we would not forget the "Creator" God. You should also have noticed that there was only one day made holy (the seventh), and it should occur to you that ONLY God can make a day holy - not you or anyone else. God did not command "pick a day and rest", He was very specific that we REMEMBER to keep the ONLY day that He made holy.

Do you think that God will accept your lame excuses for disobedience in the Judgement? Having a miserable SDA neighbor is not a valid reason to disobey God.


---jerry6593 on 10/9/12


Kath, Jesus named His opponents as He did because it was a true description of their lives. Likewise if someone teaches contrary to the doctrines of Scripture we can call them a heretic, as long as it is not just a debating technique or angry abuse. If someone claims to be Christian but says Jesus did not physically rise from the dead what do we call them?

People may rightly or wrongly be offended when branded an heretic but truth is more important than offending someone's feelings, isn't it.

The gospel is offensive but are we to stop preaching it, just because someone is offended. Surely truth is more important than feelings?
---Warwick on 10/8/12


Jerry, I have taken the time to read Scripture and to this day I have not found one passage where God commanded Saturday to be the Sabbath day. I only found the Seventh Day. Now to many the Seventh Day could be to work six days, no matter what day, and to make sure the Seventh they worshipped. But even then, those laws were for Israel, I happen to not be an Israelite living under the Law. Those Israelites were not saved, never could keep the whole Law of God, because they were not born of the Spirit. Those born of the Spirit worship Christ everyday. Not only on Satuday's. Those without the Spirit of the Law, worship Satuday's because they are under the written letter of the Law.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/12


Kath, as you say Jesus can call a spade a spade, and so can we, as we are to follow His example. It wouldn't have taken God's insight to see the spiritual leaders of the day were Biblically corrupt. We should be careful, and not do it in self-righteous anger, or as a debating tool, but we can call someone an heretic if they openly oppose the truth of Scripture. Surely we can call Atheist an atheist?
---Warwick on 10/6/12


Kathr, I can call you a heretic when you bring heretical views to your answers. And you have many times. Heretical views are those which do not adhere to the assentials of the Christian faith. And you have chosen to introduce the Arian concept of Christ, that the begotten Son of God didn't always exist. Your views do not conform to the essentials of the Christian faith. So you are a heretic because you teach that view. I did not call you a mad dog foaming at the mouth as you called me, because you are a human being by nature, no reason to say things like that to you. I believe also, in my opinion, that you are a sick person who needs spiritual healing, so that God can change your corrupted heart.
---Mark_V. on 10/6/12




Warwick JESUS can do that, HE is absolute TRUTH. A liar is a liar, yes. Liars can be found out.

But anyone can call anyone a heretic if it disagrees with one's view. One would have to be Jesus Himself to be so certain one's view is absolute truth.
---kathr4453 on 10/5/12


Kath, I am aware that some here name call, and are quick to describe someone as a heretic. However if it is name-calling to call a heretic a heretic it must also be name-calling to call a liar a liar, and an adulterer an adulterer etc. In Matthew 23 Jesus calls the teachers of the law and the Pharisees hypocrites many times, and blind guides, blind fools, blind men, like whitewashed tombs, full of greed and self-indulgence, wicked, descendants of murderers, snakes, brood of vipers, etc. Is this also name-calling or truthful description? Can we not do likewise?

Just because some are too quick to use such terms doesn't mean they should never be used.
---Warwick on 10/5/12


Warwick, I believe name calling is calling a person a heretic. That is assaulting the person. Now if you want to call certain doctrines heresy that is another matter. That's not assaulting the PERSON but the doctrine.

And If Jesus called names please show where we are to follow that pattern in obedience to Him.

Why then does it say after two admonitions REJECT. It doesn't say, call him a heretic twice and then reject.

When the RCC and former RCC here continue to call another a heretic...it makes my skin crawl.

And we all know the RCC who murdered heretics were in fact murdering CHRISTIANS as well.
---kathr4453 on 10/5/12


***********

MarkV: "Christ did write those Ten Commandments given to Israel. He never mentioned Saturday"

He did mention the seventh day of the week, did He not? Have you taken the time to research what day of the week that is today? If not, why not? Don't you care about obedience to God?

**************

---jerry6593 on 10/4/12


Kath, calling someone a heretic is not necessary name calling. I am sure it is not pleasant being called an heretic if you think you aren't one. But there are heretics here, those who reject the truth of God's word preferring to teach the nonBiblical traditions of men. Jesus was very blunt truthfully calling His opponents many names.

Name calling is when you assault the character of a person, calling them, for example a fat cow or an ugly pig. Somewhat different.

Lee of many names called me all sorts of things but they are water off a ducks back. He once said I don't have the brains of a water buffalo. Thankfully I don't!
---Warwick on 10/4/12


Jerry, again, promoting the Law. Christ did write those Ten Commandments given to Israel. He never mentioned Saturday, He never said the Law was for the Gentiles when He wrote them. "For when Gentiles, who do not have the Law by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law unto themselves" (Rom. 2:14). Jesus knew that later in history all Gentiles would be included in the redemption plan, and knew no one could keep all the Law, that is why He came in the flesh not only to die for our sins, but to keep the Law perfect for us who put our faith in Him. Under law God demands righteousness, Under Grace He bestows it. Law connects with Moses, while Grace connects with Christ and faith.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/12


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Who commanded us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath? Christ.

Where?
---JackB on 10/3/12


Well Shira, you just read where MarkV called david a Heretic. That is name callling.

Scripture tells us after adominshing a heritic once or twice REJECT. Yet MarkV, with his RCC mantality believes himself to be the Inquisition calling people to their face heretics. No where in scripture did Paul or any of the Apostles ever call someone a heretic to their face. That mentality came out of the RCC. Those who appointed themselves Judge Jury and executioner.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


But Scott this same Messiah is the very image of God, existing before all things, therefore uncreated, the Creator God of everything ever created, and He who sustains everything, as Colossians ch. 1 plainly says.

Jerusalem is called Jehovah my Righteousness only because that is where Jehovah God dwells:between the cherubim. Surely no one imagines God's word is telling us the city itself is Jehovah our Righteousness?

As regards Genesis 22:14 Abraham named the place-The Lord will provide only because God did provide. It is all about God, not places.

Likewise regarding Judges 6:22-24 Gideon built an altar, calling it -The Lord is Peace-because the Lord there declared peace upon Gideon.
---Warwick on 10/3/12


markv, I have never known of you calling names or being disrespectful to anyone on here. I read most of your post and they are fine. kathr does this to everyone that says anything on the blogs. of course, she is the only one who knows what she is talking about most times. just hang in there markv.
---shira4368 on 10/3/12


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"Jehovah is our righteousness" Mark_V

At Jer 33:16 the exact same title is applied to Jerusalem and anti-typically to the church.

Is Jerusalem or the church God?

Additionally, the use of the name "Jehovah will provide" (Genesis 22:14) is applied to a place, "Jehovah is peace" to an alter (Jg 6:22-24), etc.

The Messiah would not be called "Jehovah", but "Jehovah is our righteousness." This is a statement about Jehovah. Jesus willingly and lovingly came to earth for mankind's benefit, but it was the father's will for him to do so. Jn 3:16

He has employed his name as titles for various purposes, but "He alone is Jehovah."
---scott on 10/3/12


************

MarkV: "Who followed the people? Christ. Who sustained them Christ. Do you get the picture?"

Good point! Who spoke to the Hebrews and the mixed multitude (Gentiles) from Mt. Sinai and wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger in stone? Christ. Who commanded us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath? Christ. Do YOU get the picture?

So, why do you ignore Him?

************

---jerry6593 on 10/3/12


Scott, it contradicts your views because you do not believe "Me" and "Him" are the same God.
If you understood, you would know that "Him" is God in bodily form. The Second Person is the visible God of the New Testament. Neither the Father nor the Spirit is characteristically revealed in bodily and visible form. While the Father's voice is heard, and the Holy Spirit is seen descending in the form of a dove, Christ, the second Person, is the full manifestation of God in visible form.
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power" Col. 2:9,10. The Spirit has to make this known to you.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/12


David83, I didn't expect any less coming from a heretic.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/12

MarkV, stop calling names and being so mean and vicious to othrs here on line who disagree with you.

Take your own advise MarkV.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/12


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"...Me whom they have pierced" (Zeck. 12:10)." Mark_V (sic)

While the rendering ("me") is found in a good number of translations, others (including the RSV, NRSV, GNB, MLB, NAB (1970), NAB (1991), LB, Mo, AT, JB, NJB, NLV, BBE and Byington render the verse:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced".

Even the context tells us that the latter rendering is correct. After saying that they will look upon me (or him) God continues with "they shall mourn for HIM" The KJV (etc.) contradicts itself here. The "me" in the first half does not agree with the "him" of the second half.
---scott on 10/2/12



---Mark_V. on 10/2/12


Yes, this is when the Risen Glorified Christ Jesus, SON OF GOD born of a Virgin, of the tribe of Judah will return at His second Coming, taking the throne of David during the earthly 1000 year reign. Acts 1:11.

But what on earth does that have to do with Hebrews 1:1-2?

Yes, He must reign until all enemies are put under Him, including DEATH, and then the Kingdom will be delivered up to God so that GOD will be all in all.

1st Corinthians 15.

Who is discussing this on this site?

WHY are you cursing GOD's WORD in Hebrews 1:1-2.

---kathr4453 on 10/2/12


Kathr, stop your slanderous remarks. Studying about the Lord Jesus Christ should be our priority. How can you know about the Father if you do not know about the Son?
The titles of the Son in both the Old and the New Testament constitute an important aspect of the total revelation of His Person. Many passages even link Christ with the name Jehovah. Where Jehovah is speaking, the discription is to be applied clearly to Christ. "They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced" (Zeck. 12:10). Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30). Similar comparisons are found in many other passages, (Ps. 68:18: Eph. 4:8-10: Ps. 102:12,25-27: Heb. 1:10-12: Isa. 6:5: John 12:41).
---Mark_V. on 10/2/12


Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

Follower, so you too have a problem with Hebrews. I find most who are in cults do.

No scripture states the Lord Jesus spoke in the OT.

If the Lord Jesus spoke in theh OT, who then is the Lord Jesus SON in the NT.

The Lord our God is ONE, and believe me Israel knew who their God was. So did all the world. Just as those in Nineveh when Jonah showed up. Just ask those who threw Jonah overboard when they asked him who "his" God was.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/12


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How did Noah KNOW exactly how to build teh ark? Did God send him a prophet with instructions, or a dream, or an angel? NO. God told Noah Himself.


the Lord Jesus, as the God of the OT, spoke directly to the fathers and through prophets.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/29/12

you keep proving yourself over and over to be a haughty delusional angry bitter spiteful women, and you become more angry when I prove you wrong again and again by using Gods holy word, stop lying and you won't have to be corrected, peace
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12


Follower, I find you to be the liar here.

Also I find you have no understanding of GRACE as well.

How did Noah KNOW exactly how to build teh ark? Did God send him a prophet with instructions, or a dream, or an angel? NO. God told Noah Himself.

You also LIE when you DENY Romans 1 and 2.

You presume to know exactly what your verse in Matthew means. You don't even know what "entering into His Rest" means.

So let's be careful about pointing fingers and cursing with scripture YOU YOURSELF are guilty of!
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


Follower, that verse means this:

No man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man, etc. - None can fully comprehend the nature and attributes of God, but Christ, and none can fully comprehend the nature, incarnation, etc., of Christ, but the Father.


interesting, you just rewrote Matthew 11:27 with an explanation that does not even include anything from the original verse you did not heed Gods warning!! Proverbs 30:6 says, Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

what you wrote is not written in Matthew 11:27, and you lied claiming none can fully comprehend when the Lord stated to "whomsoever the Son will reveal him"
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12


Follower, that verse means this:

No man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man, etc. - None can fully comprehend the nature and attributes of God, but Christ, and none can fully comprehend the nature, incarnation, etc., of Christ, but the Father. The full comprehension and acknowledgment of the Godhead, and the mystery of the Trinity, belong to God alone.

Abraham was a FRIEND of God's

Enoch walked with God and God took him.

So we do know you have misinterpreted that verse.

---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


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holy scripture confirms the Lord Jesus always existed with the Father prior to becoming flesh and no man knew of the Father in heaven until the Lord revealed him

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Lord Jesus), and the Word was with God (The Father), and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (son) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12


Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

This verse does NOT say:

The Eternal Son, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

So you say the Eternal Son had a Son too?

Yep, only a mad dog would think that!

The Eternal Son doctrine came throuhg the RCC, based upon PAGAN BELIEFS!

Barnes disagrees with you.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


The Lord Jesus stated nobody knew of the Father until he came. The Father in heaven never spoke to anyone in OT or the NT.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/30/12

ReaLLY, no one knew THERE WAS God before Jesus came? How then did anyone know for sure Jesus was God?

I believe GOD testified all through out the OT that He would send a Savior.

I already posted scriptures of HOW and in what ways GOD SPOKE in the OT.

And nowhere can you ever find a verse in the OT that states any Eternal Son did all the speaking.

You prove it through scripture.

You want us to believe an ANGEL SAID "this is my Son"?

Jesus is not the SON of an Angel.

!God spoke to Adam....
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


Kathr, I do not stalk you. I answer when you are anyone is in error concerning the eternal Son of God. I did notice you left me alone because your slanderous words towards me stopped. But I see nothing has change with you. It was only temporary.
You speak of the Cross with one side of your mouth, and with the other, only slanderous words come out. Here they are:
"Even when I quote scripture you still want to act like a MAD DOG FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!"
You called me a dog. Just for answering your comments concerning Jesus in the Old Testament. You shouldn't have come to Christ without faith as you said, because nothing really changed in you.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12


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************

MarkV: "Who followed the people? Christ. Who sustained them Christ. Do you get the picture?"

Good point! Who spoke to the Hebrews and the mixed multitude (Gentiles) from Mt. Sinai and wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger in stone? Christ. Who commanded us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath? Christ. Do YOU get the picture?

So, why do you ignore Him?

************
---jerry6593 on 10/1/12


The eternal sonship notion contradicts the explicit testimony of scripture. The angel Gabriel informed Mary that her miraculously conceived child shall be called the Son of God He shall be called Son of the Highest [v. 32]. And it is precisely for this reason that I said to thee,.... In other words, it was because of the supernatural conception that he was to be called Son of God.

The expression son of God is applied to Christ more than 40 times in the New Testament. In not a single case is it used of his existence before he was born of Mary (Barnes, 21).
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


MarkV, I've noticed you are still stalking me, even though I have left you alone. Is it because I have left you alone and ignored you that you feel somewhat left out and want to start your stuff here again.

When ever I talk about the CROSS is when I see your viciousness the most. Never reading what is being said about THE CROSS. That dear markv is NOT the Holy Spirit leading you.

I answered your post MarkV, and according to SCRIPTURE.

That's my FINAL answer.

Why do you hate John 1 and Hebrews 1: 1-2 ??? That really bothers me.

Even when I quote scripture you still want to act like a MAD DOG FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him.

Can God the Father talk? It appears He can and does.



It is a stretch to assume The Father in heaven spoke here because the words are very clear it states a voice, it could have been an angel we do not know. The clear warning in holy scripture is to not add to the word of God.

The Lord Jesus stated nobody knew of the Father until he came. The Father in heaven never spoke to anyone in OT or the NT.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/30/12


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It does not say He was the Father and it does not say He was the Son with the Father in John 1.

Yes the word is the son, and the son has always been with the Father, as the Word.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

The Lord is the rock, and the chief corner stone.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/30/12


MarkV, my point exactly.

The Spiritual Rock supplied the LITERAL water they drank, and there literally was manna coming down from the sky. Jesus tells us in John 6 that He was that manna. They SAW miracles and tasted of the Holy Spirit, and partook of the Holy Spirit and STILL DIDN'T have faith to entr in. It's what Hebrews 6 is all about. And John 6...they tooo saw the miracles of the feeding of 5000 the loaves and fish, and STILL WALKED AWAY. That is what Followers verses in Corinthians is warning about...

So yes, all through out the OT Scripture is steeped with the fact that the WORD was indeed with GOD in the Beginnign and WAS GOD. It does not say He was the Father and it does not say He was the Son with the Father in John 1.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


Kathr, you said:

"Follower, ... And I don't recall any scripture stating the Rock spoke to anyone."

the passage says "and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" Spiritual Rock, not a literal rock. Christ never turns into a literal bread at communion, and never into an object. Who followed the people? Christ. Who sustained them Christ. Do you get the picture? literal rocks and bread don't talk. John said,
"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bossom of the Father, He has declared Him" (John 1:18). Christ intercedes for the people in the Old and New T.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/12


Please consider Matt. 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. See also Mark 1:11)

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him.


Can God the Father talk? It appears He can and does. So why is it so hard to believe even in the OT God the Father spoke through anyone.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/12


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Follower, the manna was Christ too, as well as the water that came from the Rock. And I don't recall any scripture stating the Rock spoke to anyone.

And I don't recall Hebrews 1 stating any "Rock" SPOKE to them in the OT. or rolled along with them in the OT.

AND no one here is saying the LOGOS did not exist from the beginning. The LOGOS was made flesh, and that flesh was the MAN Christ AKA Messiah.

The Messiah was PROMISED TO COME and He did. If he already existed as the Messiah before His incarnation, then why promise something that was already there.

The Messiah was promised to be born of a Virgin, born at a certain place , so you say He was already before Mary born of a virgin? Who?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/12



Kathr: Are you saying that you don't believe that Jesus pre-existed His birth in Bethleham and was the God of the Old Testament?


interesting, how many miss this clear understanding

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

the Lord Jesus, as the God of the OT, spoke directly to the fathers and through prophets.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/29/12


Jerry, where did you come up with that? The WORD absolutely preexisted and WAS GOD from the beginning, who was made flesh.

Why then doesn't Hebrews say in times past Jesus my son spoke to you and in times present Jesus my Son spoke to you?

There is only one Mediator between God and Man and that is the "MAN" Christ Jesus. There was no "MAN" Christ Jesus in the OT.

So, it appears God spoke through "men" like prophets in the OT.

Why not just take God and Hebrews 1 at face value and believe exactly what is being said. rather than twist it around to say something it is not saying.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/12


Kathr: Are you saying that you don't believe that Jesus pre-existed His birth in Bethleham and was the God of the Old Testament?



---jerry6593 on 9/29/12


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Jerry, Heb 1 DOES NOT say "The Eternal Son" spoke both in OT and NEW.


Hebrews 1:1 reads, In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways.

God spoke through angels (Gen. 16)

God spoke through dreams (Gen. 28:10-19)

God spoke through visions (Gen. 15)

God spoke through the use of the Urim and Thummim (Ex. 28:30)

God spoke through symbolic actions (Jer. 18:1-10)

God spoke through a gentle whisper (1 Kings 19:12)

God spoke through miraculous signs (Ex. 8:20-25)

And of coarse, God spoke directly Himself (Gen. 3:9)

As you can see God spoke many ways in the Old Testament.

This is what Hebrews 1 says.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/12


Richard, great answer. That's what I was looking for. People in the Old Testament knew God as Elohim, YHWH, Yahweh, or even Adoni. When Moses asked God for His name Elohim said to Moses, "I AM Who I AM" He was only to be worship for He was the Savior Creator of all things. As history continued, Jesus Christ is presented to us as the Deliverer, our Savior. He is also presented to us as the Creator, "all things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made" He is the one who gives life to people and is sinless the same as the God of the Old Testament. And "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth"
The very same God.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/12


kathr: "God in the OT spoke through Himself? or through His Son? or does it say He spoke through Prophets?"

God spoke both through mediators (prophets) and directly to the people as at Mt. Sinai.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

1Co 10:2-4 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was CHRIST.
---jerry6593 on 9/28/12


People who speak in tounges are speaking directly to God. And he spoke to people directly.
---Jcb on 9/28/12


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Kathr 4453 - God who is spirit spoke through Christ - ( You seem to put a separation Between God and the Son when there One and The Same,///

It's MarkV you want to address that to. I believe the WORD who is God spoke in the OT.

Is that what Hebrrews 1 is saying? God in the OT spoke through Himself? or through His Son? or does it say He spoke through Prophets?

BUT in these last days GOD spoke to us through His Son.

I'm not sure what you are saying, that you disagree with the author of Hebrews, who actualy is GOD.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/12


Kathr 4453 - God who is spirit spoke through Christ - ( You seem to put a separation Between God and the Son when there One and The Same,

John 10:30 - I and my Father are One.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them Verily ,Verily I say unto you, Before Abraham I was.

Deuteronomy 4,39 Knowing therefore this day, and consider in thine heart. that the Lord he is God in Heaven above,and upon the earth beneath, there is none else,

Ephensian 4:5 One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

Romans 6:23 The wages of Sin is death, but the gift of God is life through Jesus Christ our Lord,
---RichardC on 9/27/12


Well MarkV, I see Balaam an unrighteous prophet God spoke to him through a jack ass.

SO can God speak to the unrighteous...OT or New?

Well we see He did. And He even used Prophets to WARN the wicked. And in Nineveh!

Now today, God speaks to unbelievers THROUGH US.

And WE take the GOOD NEWS to all those unbelievers and give them an opportunity to either believe or not believe.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/12


My question to francis was, how did he know the angels who appeared to Lot were cherub and seraphim's, or just angels or even archangels? I wondered if there was a passage in some other place that said that, that I might have missed. We know they were angels, but not what kind they were. That was my question to him. And yes, God speaks through many means, but most of all through His Word the Bible.
My blog was not worded correctly. What I meant was, does God talk directly to unbelievers without Christ? Or is it Christ who is doing the talking all through History? Of course I understand that those who do not believe Jesus Christ is God and therefore eternal, will answer differently.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/12


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Trey and MarkV, you say Jesus, the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Jesus NEVER CHANGES. So are you saying that Jesus was ALWAYS fully God fully man? AND that Jesus spoke to man in the OT just like today?

Heb 1 states GOD SPOKE through the PROPHETS in the OT, and in the NT, GOD SPOKE through His Son.

So did GOD SPEAK, or did the Spirit of Christ do the speaking? OR did GOD SPEAK through the Spirit of Christ in the OT?

Why would God who is Spirit, need to speak through another Spirit in the Old?

So you say God a Spirit spoke through the Spirit of Christ who then spoke through Prophets?

That's not what Hebrews 1 say at all.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/12


Phil, I too am a follower of Christ and, if I can put it this way, a fan of the Apostle Paul. I do not find any fault in Paul's teachings and believe them to be in perfect agreement with the teaching of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Paul stated this:
Gal1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal1:7 Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Those do not sound like to words of a heretic!
---trey on 9/26/12


MarkV, here is what God said:

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. This last part is what JamesL is trying to tell you too!
---kathr4453 on 9/26/12


Jeremiah 36:4 - THEN Jeremiah called Barurh the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremaih all the words of the Lord ,which he had spoken unto him, unpon a roll of a book.


Why then should one declare that the Old Testament is not applicable to Christians ?

2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God . and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction , for instruction in righteousness.
---RichardC on 9/25/12


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The Lord's ministry on earth was for the Jew, according to the OT--Phil on 9/23/12

Jesus ministry was to fulfill the prophecy of the OT, firstly Isaiah 53, then Jesus resurrection also stated in the OT, Acts 13 re-iterates.

BUT what phil and michael_e fail to understand, the KINGDOM and KING cannot/could not be fulfilled until AFTER Jesus death and resurrection..Zechariah 12-14 TELLS US there will be no "Kingdom" preached or taught until the RISEN GLORIFIED CHRIST personally returns (acts 1:11) and takes the throne in Earthly in Jerusalem.

The MYSTERY is that this tiny amount of time between these two events Christ is building His CHURCH to be JOINT HEIRS with Him at that time...both Jew and Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


Phil: It sounds like you are advocating following Paul (a mere mortal man) rather than Jesus Christ (immortal God made flesh). That would make you a Paulian rather than a Christian. Paul did not pay the penalty for your sins - Christ did!


MarkV: God spoke both through mediators (prophets) and directly to the people as at Mt. Sinai.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


---jerry6593 on 9/24/12


Why then should one declare that the Old Testament is not applicable to Christians? Do we not follow Christ?---jerry6593 on 6/30/12

Consider the perils, assaults, beatings, fastings, starvings, shipwrecks, drownings, and other misfortunes Paul endured for the sake of the elect body of Christ.

Why?

There already were witnesses in Jerusalem. The disciples and apostles.

Why was Paul separated from them Ac 13:2 Ro 1:1?

Paul was commissioned to the Gentiles.

The Lord's ministry on earth was for the Jew, according to the OT:
Jer 50:6
Mt 10:6
Mt 15:24
Jn 4:22
Ro 1:16
Ro 9:4
Ro 15:8

Failure to hold to Paul's doctrine is the root of disunitiy in the ecclesia today.
---Phil on 9/23/12


So my question to you is why you suspect the angels were saraphims and cherubs?
---Mark_V. on 7/1/12

saraphims and cherubs created messengers of God ( angels) as opposed to this individual:

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me
---francis on 9/23/12


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Add Urim and Thumin to the list.
---Legends on 7/19/12


Both. Sometimes he spoke to individuals one-on-one telling them what to do personally, and he also spoke to man through the prophets who talked with God on a daily basis, which is written in scripture, "This says the Lord,..." or "Thus says the Lord,..."
---Eloy on 7/5/12


You are right Mark. Good meat in that post. I think that it is very easy to equate our Lord only coming into the world during His earthly birth, IE the manger in Bethlehem, and we lose site of the real awesomeness of His eternal presence in the God head. A misunderstanding of this can limit our appreciation of the Masters great position and the sacrifice he made by leaving His eternal glory to descend from His thrown and suffer the shame of His human circumstances and death on a cross, Phil 2:6-8. It can take some Spiritual weight lifting to get a handle on the doctrine at first, at least for a thick headed Bear like me.
---Poppa_Bear on 7/2/12


Poppa Bear, I used the word "theophanies" instead of what you used "Christophonies" just using a different word. The Greek words for God (theos) and (to appear) "Phaino" has historically been taken to refer to appearances of Christ in the Old Testament. In the Bible, theophanies have reference specifically to Christ. As you said, there is many references of the pre-incarnated Christ in the Old Testament. The number of theophanies which are without question furnishes one of the major forms of Old Testament revelation of God. Their identification with the Son of God refutes at once the Arian heresy that Christ was created being and the Socinian and Unitarian perversions of the person of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/12


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francis, concerning (Gen. 19:15) you mention that they were,
"God spoke through his cherubs and saraphims:"
But we are told that the Lord spoke to Abraham through the theophanies (Christ the Lord). And the two angels were never mention to be Saraphims or cherubs. Only that they were angels that had taken human form (v.10) called "men" and also called men in (18:22). So my question to you is why you suspect the angels were saraphims and cherubs? You must have had some reason to say they were, maybe I missed something here, and you could bring light to that.
---Mark_V. on 7/1/12


God spoke through His son: Joshua 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so.

God spoke through his cherubs and saraphims: Genesis 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Ofcourse god spoke to his people through prophets: Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face

and dreams andvision
---francis on 6/30/12


Hi, Mark (c: You say "in His holiness". Ones can take God's "holiness" to mean He is distant and not interested in speaking personally with people. But the LORD spoke personally even with Satan, in that meeting of "the sons of God", in Job 1:6-12.

The LORD used a donkey to talk to Balaam > Judges 22:28-35. Certainly, that donkey was not our Mediator (c:

But "God" spoke directly to Abimelech, in a dream (Genesis 20), and "the LORD" spoke to Rebecca about her twins (Genesis 25:22-23). But "the LORD" speaking could mean Jesus who is our Mediator.

Anyway, I think this shows that God does speak personally to people who are not really holy people.
---willie_c: on 6/30/12


I can agree with Cluny, and this would be known as Christophonies, Christ appearing in the OT, you will find some examples with the Angel of the Lord and Abraham when restrained from sacrificing Isaac, Joshua and The Captain of Host, The burning bush just to name a few. Research the words used in those passages and you will find the Hebrew names of God interchangeable within those interactions. Aside from that, we had signs, miracles, the law and the Prophets who actually became possessed with the external power of the Holy Spirit to proclaim, Thus Say the Lord.
Just touching the tip of the burg
---Poppa_Bear on 6/30/12


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I agree with Cluny. Jesus Himself was the Creator in Eden and the Lawgiver on Mt. Sinai.

Eph 3:9 .... God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Why then should one declare that the Old Testament is not applicable to Christians? Do we not follow Christ?



---jerry6593 on 6/30/12


Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
---micha9344 on 6/30/12


My understanding is that the MEDIATOR in the OT was actually the Logos/Son, Who was incarnate in the NT and known as Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/12


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