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Body Of Christ And Bride Same

Are the Body of Christ and the bride of the Lamb identical?

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 ---Phil on 7/10/12
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But no where does it say that Israel will be given supremacy over all nations, as if it is in the future. Mark_V. on 7/30/12.

Re 5:10 And hast made us Israel) unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

It aint happened yet.. We is Israel, and they shall rule over the nations on earth.

Or God is a man, and lied to them.
---Phil on 7/31/12


Michael_e, I stand in agreement with you,
and add,
Mercy and Grace, before Our Father, I quickly forgive brother MarkV, and ask you stand in agreement with me on this.
Ex 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Jn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Matt18:21-22
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

To Our Lord and Savior,
Y'sha, Jesus Christ,Defined: God is Savior,Son of God,Immanuel defined: God with Us

Blessings,
Shalom
---char on 7/31/12


Deut 7:6? Have you missed the means by which that is to be?
---Nana on 7/31/12

Question.

Which of all God's covenants with man has He broken?

And...

Which of all those covenants has man kept?

Who do you suppose will keep His promises, even though the other party doesn't?

Man is not capable of keeping his end of the deal, ever. He has proven it over and over.

But God will, no matter what.

Men can do nothing without God's spirit.
---Phil on 7/31/12


//---michael_e on 7/30/12//

Another Amen.
---char on 7/30/12


Michael e, maybe I misunderstood you, but you once answered me and said, every individual was going to be save in the end, and I told you it was not true, that Universal salvation is not biblical. If I was wrong then I am sorry.
Second, you did not divide the word of God concerning Israel and Paul wanting to save some of the Jews by bringing them to jealousy. written in (Rom. 11:14). Why say that, when all Israel will be saved? If "all" means all, that would include all those who died without faith in God. I hear Char amening you, maybe she can answer for you, since she knows Greek and Hebrew and knows another way into heaven without Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12




"ISRAEL is God's chosen nation and will be given supremacy over all nations
(Deut 7:6, 28:13, Isa 6:1-5, Matt 10:5-10, Rom 9:6)"


Deut 7:6? Have you missed the means by which that is to be?
Deut 7:9-11: "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations,... Thou shalt therefore keep... do them."

Matt 10:5-10?
Never seen matthew 21:40 to 46? See v.41? Does it not ring a bell with Deut 7:9-11?
There is no 'Israel' to be saved per-se and neither the Gentiles become Israelites. If they are one, it is in the Love of God for them along with their own love for God.
---Nana on 7/31/12


mark you said
//I know you believe in Universal salvation//
As usual what you think is different than what you know.
This is what I believe, if it's universal salvation, so be it.
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand,2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 7/30/12


//---michael_e on 7/28/12//

Very nice michael_e.

Mercy and Grace,
Shalom
---char on 7/30/12


Michael e,
"2 Tim 2:15 rightly divide,

rightly divide the Word?"
Paul made the statement "all Israel will be saved"

why would Paul state,

"If by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" (v.14)

He was speaking to the Gentiles and wanted to magnify his ministry in order to provoke jealousy on the Jews in order to save some of them. Why make that statement if all were going to be saved anyway?
When you say all Israel, which one? The one from the past who died in sin, todays or a future Israel? Are the one's in the flesh going to be saved?
I know you believe in Universal salvation so maybe this questions us not for you.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12


---Mark_V. on 7/30/12

2 Tim 2:15 rightly divide, Mark, rightly divide. God has not given up on Israel.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people(ISRAEL)? God forbid.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, UNTIL(time word) the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
---michael_e on 7/30/12




Michael e, I agree, Jesus Christ is the king of Israel and the whole world, and He is the Head of the body of Christ His church. But no where does it say that Israel will be given supremacy over all nations, as if it is in the future. (Deut. 7:6) is true, if they kept His commandments (v. 9) and they didn't. (Deut. 28:13) also includes if they kept the commandments of God, they didn't. (Isa. 6:1-5, Matt. 10:5-10 and Rom. 9:6) say nothing about a future supremacy of Israel. No one is going to rule by another nation after the Second Coming. Jesus is the Supreme Ruler of His Church.
The fact is that Israel never kept the commandments of God and every time they fail, their enemies ruled them, because God turned them over to them for disobeying.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12


michael_e on 7/28/12

I commend you for your faithfulness to supply evidence. It appears you are correct.
---Phil on 7/29/12


2 Tim 2:15 rightly divide

Jesus Christ is THE KING of Israel and the whole world
(Isaiah 9:6-7, Daniel 7:13-14, Zach14:9,16, Matt 2:2, John 1:49, Luke 1:31-33)

Jesus Christ is THE HEAD of the church, the body of Christ
(Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18)
ISRAEL is God's chosen nation and will be given supremacy over all nations
(Deut 7:6, 28:13, Isa 6:1-5, Matt 10:5-10, Rom 9:6)
In the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile Rom 10:12, 3:22, Gal 3:26-28, 1Cor 12:13, Eph 2:16-17)
Redeemed Israel to rule and reign with Christ on the earth
(Isa 62:1-4, Ezek 37:21-28, Ex 19:4-6, Rev5:10)
---michael_e on 7/28/12


The word of God,
"Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning "Election" they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Rom. 11:28,29).

"God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth" (2 Thess. 2:13) indicating He did not chose others or why even say he chose those?

"And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of God, 'and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The others were not ordained to eternal life.
---Mark_V. on 7/27/12


The Word of God is spoken/written for all souls He created/formed, however, [believers]-follow

He is the plan of Salvation---He is Savior----Gods Plan does not fail---man does.
Gods will-gets resisted, His intention-never does.

Rom 11:34-38
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Prov16(all) Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
---char on 7/25/12


God knows who has,is and will stand for Him.
Rev12:4,Lk 21:15-18,Mk13(all)vs 10-11

All will be judged--definitively--Time has been created for this very purpose.

Ecc 3:15
That which hath been is now, and that which is to be hath already been, and God requireth that which is past

Ecc3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Lk 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God did not create any for the sole purpose of perishing them.

Process of elimination:
Gods will-gets resisted, His intention-never does.
---char on 7/25/12


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God is a God of order. His plan of salvation is (for all souls) who will believe by faith. It's not a plan of salvation for everyone since not all will be saved. God knows who will and will not believe by faith. He knows who will stand at the Great White Throne of Judgment. He knows who they are and how many there will be. It's not debateable. It's not my word but that which is found in His Word. "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36).
"For a man's heart deviseth his way: But the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9).
"For He is of one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13).
---Mark_V. on 7/24/12


Believers,
The Word of God is spoken/written for all souls He created/formed, however, believers-follow.
As believers we are instructed to follow--His Word. Why?...Believers are witnesses to the World.
What parts of the World need to believe? Plants, animals etc...No,
only mankind.

God is a God of order.
His plan of salvation for (All souls) He created/formed ----is---Himself.

Do not take my word on this, God has given- His Word (down to each letter).
This is not my teaching, I did not write or design the letters used to write the Word of God. Ex31:18,Ex9:10 God did, God is creator of All things,And it is His Word that defines it-definitively-Aleph to Tav.
Repentance unto (Re-mission)
Ez18(all)
cont'
---char on 7/24/12


Char, your teachings on words is great but your hermenuitics are not. If God did not create any to perish, why are many going to hell? Are they defeating the purpose of God Almighty? I don't think so.
When He says walk in My statues, only believers walk in His statues. If God literally means for everyone literally to ask Him for wisdom, why would that mean everyone since unbelievers don't know God or believe there is a God? Would athiest ask God for wisdom? I don't think so. So that passage is for believers only.
Seek and you shall find, only believer seek of God. For the lost the Bible says, "no one seeks of God."
---Mark_V. on 7/24/12


2nd posting:
God did not create any for the sole purpose of perishing them.
The path one walks/follows - ends up to its final destination:however,
God gave instructions to walk/follow.Jn1:9,Rom3:21
(If ) it is the path to the Kingdom of God one walks---one ends up within the Kingdom of God.
(If) it is not the path to the Kingdom of God one walks---one will not end up within the Kingdom of God.
One Path, One mediator, One Lord, One Savior-Followed
The Word Of God, Son of God/Son of man, Immanuel --Ysha. Heb 10:10-13(all)
[...]we are sanctified through the offering of (the Body of Jesus Christ) once for all.
God Will confirm His Word/Yshua
Holy Spirit-1Cor2 In Spirit and In Truth
---char on 7/23/12


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---micha9344 on 7/21/12
---josef on 7/21/12
---aka on 7/21/12

Understood.

Praising God for His mercy and grace
***********
Seek the Wisdom of God.
It is God we must ask for wisdom concerning His Word--not man.
Praise God -- He will judge whether the intent of the Heart is pure ---as He alone knows it.
Prov1 (all)
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: (but) fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Jam 1(all)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.
---char on 7/23/12


1 Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The only word I add to this is...

Amen.
---char on 7/23/12


Mark, Yes Hebrews 3 quotes from Psalm 95.

I already know the context of the passage. Its very clear to 99% of Christians that it is written to us, the believers. (Heb 3:1)

It is a warning to us
"brethren" (Heb 3:12) not to harden our hearts to the Spirit, just as certain members of Israel hardened their hearts and did not enter the promised land because of it. The "brethren" can depart from God (Heb 3:12)

Of course you wont see it that way because in order for you to believe what is plainly written in scripture, you would have to admit the commentaries of certain scholars that you herald are absolute garbage and that "perseverance of the saints" is a garbage doctrine as well.
---LindaH on 7/23/12


Linda, when you want to critize me, at least be kind enough to give the passages, these way I can read the context of the passages. Were you speaking of the quote from (Ps. 95:7-11)?
you said,

Wow!! Do you mean we have a will outside of God's?? Say it aint so!!"

Of course we have a will that is not the same as God's will. His will is always rightgeous and just, my will isn't, for I have a sin nature and He doesn't. That's why we are judge right or wrong. Our will has desires that are not godly, they come from the flesh which will one day die. God permits men to continue to sin, but believers He chastens. God's will of decree, can never be change. If you want to know more about what decree means, I will tell you.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/12


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(1 John 2:2) if taken literally, Jesus paid for the sins of every individual. Universal salvation is not biblical---MarkV

You only have a problem understanding this because you think the calling of the Holy Spirit cant be resisted. "Irresistable Grace" has you blinded to the truths given in Hebrews 3.

He desires we not sin, but we do---MarkV

Wow!! Do you mean we have a will outside of God's?? Say it aint so!! Most would call that a "free will" or the power to choose.
---LindaH on 7/21/12


MarkV, you seem to copy and paste a lot of things from the internet.

One post you're repeatedly misspelling commonly used words, and then in the next you sound like a college professor.

Maybe instead of copying the thoughts of others, it would help you to do your own thinking. If you're going to use someone elses words at least give them credit for it instead of making it look like they are your own.
---Blogger9680 on 7/21/12


Groom:body of Christ (part of the husband)---Christ-- being the Head. Eph2:15,
Groom: coming for Chased Virgin to be covered/cloth by the groom as- husband.
A bride (numphe) becomes wife (gune)after consummation. Jer3:14 ---char on 7/19/12

agreed. so, sorry i had to shorten.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

emphasis added.

"Hosea" (all)- it only has one application

most misapplied scripture so part of Groom (not christ) keeps jumping into bed w/ Jezebel (and that is generally figurative and many times literal.)
---aka on 7/21/12


Char I absolutely love your post, and the depth to which you take them. Keep sharing.
---josef on 7/21/12


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Passages given
(1 John 2:2) if taken literally, Jesus paid for the sins of every individual. Universal salvation is not biblical.
(1 Tim. 2:3) God desiring all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, does not mean that is the will of God. He desires we not sin, but we do. The Grk word of desire is not that which normally expresses God's will of decree (His eternal purpose) but God's will of desire. There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose which must transcent His desires. God does not want people to remain wicked, yet God in His own glory and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure vessels prepared for destruction for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Rom. 9:22).
---Mark_V. on 7/21/12


char,
Amen
Alef to Tav
---micha9344 on 7/21/12


//---micha9344 on 7/19/12// ---Understood.


1 Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 Tim 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there] [is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Ez 33:11 Say to them: `[As] I live,' says the Lord God, `I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Josh 5:13-14
---char on 7/20/12


Micha 2: If God was not willing that any should perish, why were those in (v.7) "... reserved for fire until the day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men?" God could not be longsuffering for them. So you are right. What people fail to do is to read the whole context and pick one part and say, "Here, you see, God does not want any to persish" When God could save everyone if He so wanted them not to perish. So thank you very much for your post.
---Mark_V. on 7/20/12


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Brother Micha, I totally agree with your last statment. From first to last, when you said:

It is sad how easily we humans can add to or detract from the Word of God to support our ideas or doctrines rather than letting the Word of God shape our ideas and doctrines."

Here is why, (v.8) we know that Paul was speaking to the beloved. (the us) and the (any) in (v. 9). The "us" are the beloved, the any must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed. Since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked (v. 3).
"Knowing this first that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their lust" they are reserved for fire (v.7).
---Mark_V. on 7/19/12


Praise God,

Not One man knows all truths-God alone knows and confirms His Word-
To Him be the judge/Glory.

Israel:"Turns the Head of God"- "called out" from among the nations - chosen by God as a witness to mankind [adam-adamah] of His True love. The Father chose the Bride for His Son

Hosea (all)

Forsaken/Forgiven(Jer 3:1-9,Is 50:1-2)hence-
Kinsmen Redeemer Deut 24:1-4.Is 54:5-8, Is 62:3-5,Jer31:3-15Rev 21:10 Holy/New Yrshlm descending out of Heaven

Groom:body of Christ (part of the husband)---Christ-- being the Head. Eph2:15,
Groom: coming for Chased Virgin to be covered/cloth by the groom as- husband.
A bride (numphe) becomes wife (gune)after consummation. Jer3:14
---char on 7/19/12


Praise God, He alone knows truth, to him be judge/Glory.

Witness of Israel: made of two sticks-will be joined back together, as witness of the True Love of God-Once forsaken/ redeemed/forgiven.

Hoses 1:10-11-(all)Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered, [...]ye are not My People, there it shall be said unto them, ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.[shortened]

Jezreel: two meanings
1.) may God scatter (Jer31:10) 2. may God sow (Zech10:9)
Mercy and Grace...
---char on 7/19/12


"...not wishing that any of "us" (the elect) to parish..."-Mark_V. on 7/19/12
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It is sad how easily we humans can add to or detract from the Word of God to support our ideas or doctrines rather than letting the Word of God shape our ideas and doctrines.
---micha9344 on 7/19/12


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Praise God,He alone knows all truth, to him be the judge/Glory.

God did not [create] any for the sole purpose of perishing,However, He (alone) knows the true love of each [adam]-man- formed[from adamah].
He[Exist] true-just and fair-sent His Word/light
Jn 1[...] That was the true Light which gives light to [every man coming into the world]
One God of order:Jn13:31,Jn 15,16,17
The Elect:Children of "light" 1Th5:5 stand before the spurious messiah Mk13
2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is
1.) longsuffering to us-ward,
2.) not willing that any should perish,
3.) but that all should come to repentance."
Praise God for His mercy/Grace
---char on 7/19/12


I am very happy that the Lord is long suffering, not wishing that any of "us" (the elect) to parish. And He will wait to complete the redeemed the "us" the rest of the chosen, to come to repentance.
God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders and the ongoing breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/12


2 Pet 3:8 "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Praise the Lord-
Shalom
---char on 7/18/12


Brother Josef, I always love your responses and you know that. We do disagree on this one. No problem.

Chria, when reading the context of (Heb. 11:39) it seems as if the passage is implying those Old T. saints did not receive the promise ever, but that is not what the passage is saying. They had faith in the ultimate fulfillment of the eternal promise. Both groups are characterized by genuine faith and are saved by Christ' atoning work on the cross (Eph. 2:8,9). "Apart from us" The faith of O.T. saints looked forward to the promised salvation, they didn't receive the promise then, but looked forward to it, whereas the faith of those after Christ look back to the fulfillment of the promise. We receive the promise now.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/12


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"Thats not how I interpreted what Josef said. It seems that the bride is arrayed with our righteousness which is of Him, and clothed with us (saints). I thought what I wrote was clear, obliviously it was not. Thank you Chria for clearing it up. Your interpretation of what I said is indeed correct. MarkV and I disagree on very little, however if I understand his position correctly, we do disagree on this particular subject, and that is OK. I know we are brothers in Christ, and sometimes brothers disagree:o) I also know that the truth that he has received, has just as much value as my own, and with that in mind I know, as I have witness, that he and I can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.,o) All praises to the Father.
---Josef on 7/15/12


God and Israel are husband/wife, father/son, shepherd/sheep, farmer/vineyard, etc, So to understand the people as the "bride" even though "bride" actually describes the city.

Paul uses bridal metaphor in 2 Corinthians 11:2, It just doesn't get any more "bridal" than that! The betrothal terminology is straight out of Hosea 2. From the prophets to Paul to Revelation, it's the same metaphor,not to mention Paul's own reference to "Jerusalem above, which is the mother of us all" (Galatians 4:26), which sounds remarkably similar to the figure of the New Jerusalem as the mother of God's sons in Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/12


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
---francis on 7/13/12

This New Jerusalem unifies with prophets regarding the entire house of 12 Israel. Heb 8:8 declares them.
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Hard to visualize those that ignore/despise the prophets or "all" Israel entering New Jerusalem from the language given in Revelations.
Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
---Trav on 7/14/12


as Josef said, the saints are not the bride until the wedding takes place.
---Mark_V. on 7/13/12

Thats not how I interpreted what Josef said.Itseems that the bride is arrayed with our righteousness which is of Him, and clothed with us (saints).

In reading the following, note they/bride, us/saints

KJV
Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

NIV
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
---chria9396 on 7/14/12


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Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


Believe it or not, the Body of Christ is actually greater than the guests.

No Jewish fable here.
---kathr4453 on 7/14/12


The Rabbi theorizes that there will be "guests" at the wedding of the Lamb, and that the Old Testament saints will be guests. The NT church will be the bride.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/12
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables

I know that you do not believe that. It is laugable at best
---francis on 7/13/12


Mark E, that was a good theory but only a theory I suppose. John the Baptist was giving a parable. John conveyed his understanding of his own role through the use of a parable. The "friend" of the bridegroom was the ancient equivalent of the best man who organized the details and presided over the Judean wedding (Galilian weddings were somewhat different). The friend found his greatest joy in watching the ceremony proceed without problems. Most likely John was alluding to O.T. passages where faithful Israel is depicted as the bride of the Lord (Is. 62:4,5: Jer.2:2: Hos. 2:16-20). And as Josef said, the saints are not the bride until the wedding takes place.
---Mark_V. on 7/13/12


We, the Body of Christ, are currently esposed to Jesus but we are not wedded yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/12

Metaphor, not doctrine. 2 Cor 11:2 is a response from a jealous "father", Paul, towards his children (the ecclesia), in this case like a daughter promised in marriage. A very emotional case for Paul. He suffered much bringing them up in maturity, only to see them so easily be confused by false ones courting their affections.

Paul had no authority to espose anyone to Christ. He was Christ's slave. Election comes from the Father, not men. Cor 11:2 is a metaphor, not a doctrine.
---Phil on 7/13/12


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the saints are invited to the marriage supper, they are not the ones being wedded.
---francis on 7/12/12

Actually, I just read an artice on this very subject from a Messianic Rabbi.

The Rabbi theorizes that there will be "guests" at the wedding of the Lamb, and that the Old Testament saints will be guests. The NT church will be the bride.

The verse he listed as evidence for his theory was spoken by John the Baptist before he was imprisoned. John describes himself as a friend of the bridegroom:

John 3:29 "He who has the bride is the bridegroom, but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegrooms voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled"
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/12


We, the Body of Christ, are currently esposed to Jesus but we are not wedded yet.

2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ"

The actual ceremony is:

Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/12


"Are the Body of Christ and the bride of the Lamb identical?" No
The body of Christ is His Church. >Eph 1:22,23
And a husband and wife does not become one body until after the wedding.
His bride is the New Jerusalem which will be arrayed with the righteousness of the saints, and our righteousness is of Him. Rev 21:9>Rev 21:2>Rev 19:8>Phl 3:9>Rom 4:6
"As I live, saith the LORD (concerning Zion) you shall cloth your self with them all (the saints of God) as with an ornament, and bind them [on you], as a bride [does]." Isa.49:18
The Children of God are referred to as "friends" of the bride groom and viewed as "children" of the bride chamber and joint heirs with Him. Jhn 3:29>Mat.9:15>Rom.8:17
---josef on 7/13/12


Phil, what you said of the passages is not found in them Jer. 31:33 does not say "and they will fulfill their roles as kings and priests for the healing of the nations." not even close, Then you said "It is not that way now. This will change under the rule of Israel and in His presence, when the Twelve sit on their thrones over the 12 tribes ( Mt 19:28) In the passage Peter told Jesus they, had left all and followed Him, what would they get, Jesus told them when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, they who had followed Him will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes. Those are saints, believers read (1 Cor. 6:2,3) "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?..."
---Mark_V. on 7/13/12


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michael_e this is what I get from your posts:
1: Christ is altready married
2: The uses of marriage of christ to the church are similies
3: The church can only be the bride of christ is the Apostle Paul says so
4: then you have this: --body-wife-church--->Christ
2Pe 3:16 -micha9344 on 7/10/12

If you want to say that the Body of christ is the church, while the bride of the lamb is " something else" why not just say so?

If you want to say that christ is already maried to XYZ just say so and give you texts
---francis on 7/13/12


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If someone made a case that the only reason why the city is called the bride, is because John saw it as beutiful as a bride adorned for her husband. That would make sense.

So the three reasonable position are:
1: The use of bride in these context is only a similie and christ who is the lamb needs neither bride nor wife. He has been in existance for eternity being self suffiencent and is in no need of bride or wife

2: The church is the bride
3: The Holy City is the bride
---francis on 7/13/12


I wonder how the "bride of the Lamb" feels about "the wife of Christ"?
What happened to the two becoming one flesh?
---micha9344 on 7/12/12

All ur questions are found in the OT and NCovenant. It was/is a marriage,divorce,remarriage.
Isa 62:4
Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken, neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Jer 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD, for I am married unto you: I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, I will bring you to Zion:
---Trav on 7/13/12


//None of your posts on the subject thus far has made any sense at all.//
That's because you know nothing about right division, you should listen more to your apostle Paul
---michael_e on 7/12/12


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---michael_e on 7/12/12
None of your posts on the subject thus far has made any sense at all.

--Mark_Eaton on 7/12/12
Your posts are reasonable and sensible
---francis on 7/12/12


I wonder how the "bride of the Lamb" feels about "the wife of Christ"?
Doesn't the "bride" know that Christ, the Lamb, is already married?
What happened to the two becoming one flesh?
Is the "wife" also marrying the "bride"?
So the three will become one flesh?
What about those of Israel that became Christians?
Are they the "bride" or are they the "wife"?
Are they both?
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28, Col 3:11
---micha9344 on 7/12/12


the Church, BoC was hid in God from ages and generations. With the administration of Grace new metaphors are applied to the Church, such as: Body, stewards, ambassadors. Some think Paul speaks of us as the Bride of Christ in Eph 5. they fail to distinguish between metaphor and a simile.
Putting the Church as the Bride in Eph 5, results from not seeing the Figure of Speech used in the passage is Simile, not Metaphor: Metaphors place one thing for another. It's representation. Simile is resemblance. We can't say when comparing one thing with another, that one thing is another.
compare Christ and the Church, His Body, and the conduct of wives and husbands. Note the presence of simile in every instance, and the absence of metaphor."
---michael_e on 7/12/12


--Mark_Eaton on 7/12/12
You may have missed my post where I posted the same thing you did and said that if one wamted to make a good biblical case for the people being the bride, they should site what you sited.
I have No issuses with your case.

However as i stated an equaly good case can be made based on the text that the city and not the people are the bride, that the saints are invited to the marriage supper, they are not the ones being wedded.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem,
---francis on 7/12/12


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the Holy City that he was also shown people in it, simple post the text.
---francis on 7/11/12

I can show you where the bride is not a city.

Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints"

Is a city made of gold and precious stones going to be arrayed in fine linen? Arrayed in the righteous acts of the saints? And how does a city make itself ready?

The bride is people. People who have made themselves ready, have adorned themselves in righteous acts, who are chosen not just called to be there.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/12


Mark_V. on 7/12/12 said: "The New Jerusalem is the captial city of heaven, a place of perfect holiness"

Jerusalem will always be where the rule of God over the earth issues forth.

God's habitation is a spiritual realm, not of the earth or its system, where cities and governments have a purpose reflecting His authority over all.

He will write His Law in Israel's hearts and minds (Jer 31:33), and they
will fulfill their roles as kings and priests for the healing of the nations.

It is not that way now. This will change under the rule of Israel and in His presence, when the Twelve sit on their thrones over the 12 tribes ( Mt 19:28), and the Lion of Judah rules with a scepter of iron as the King.
---Phil on 7/12/12


This is not evidence that the bride of the Lamb and the Body are the same, in fact, it proves otherwise.
---Phil on 7/12/12

What is it you doubt, Bride or Body of Christ (BOC)?

I used these verses to show you that Jesus loves the Church as a man loves his wife. Unless I am wrong, a wife and a bride are the same person, only difference is a matter of time. Therefore, if Jesus loves the BOC as a wife, then he also loves the BOC as a bride.

The mystery of the verses in Eph 5 that the HS is trying to unlock for us is this:

1. Jesus nourishes and cleaves to the BOC as a wife

2. Jesus and the BOC are one flesh
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/12


---Mark_V. on 7/12/12
When John sees the holy city and it is called the bride it is uninhabited.

If you want to say that the church, and not the city is the bride, make a good biblical arguement.

here is one:
Rev 19:7 for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I could buy this to say that the church is the bride because "the righteousness of saints" makes it possible that the church and not the city is the bride
---francis on 7/12/12


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Mark_Eaton on 7/11/12 quotes these for support of sameness.
Eph 5:23 "For the husband is head of the wife,
Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives,
Eph 5:31-32 and be joined to his wife.
Thank you Mark.
Not much said about brides here in these passages. It is husbands and wives in the context, not brides awaiting a bridegroom.

G3565 numphe-bride (G3566 numphios-bridegroom Jn 3:29)

G1135 gune a woman, specially, a wife.

These passages do not use numphe, they use gune.
This is not evidence that the bride of the Lamb and the Body are the same, in fact, it proves otherwise.
---Phil on 7/12/12


Mark E, I agree with your statements concerning the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is the captial city of heaven, a place of perfect holiness. It is seen as coming down from heaven indicating it already existed, but it descends into the new heavens and new earth from its place on high. This is the city where the saints will live (John 14:1-3). Bride, and important metaphor for the Church (Matt. 25:1-13: Eph. 5:25-27:). The whole city occupied by all the saints is called the bride, so that all saints must be finally included in the bride imagery and bridal blessing. The Church is the bride consisting of all saints. called the body of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/12/12


When Paul speaks of the New jerusalem, he refers to it as: But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians 4:26

When John speaks of the New Jerusalem, he refers to it as: the bride, the Lamb's wife. Revelation 21:9

So both Paul and John speak of the Holy City in a very special way as pertaining to Jesus or father Isaiah 9:6 / creator.

John also goes on to describe a very unique relationship between Jesus and the holy city, whereby they are eternally joined together to included: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
---francis on 7/12/12


//Paul is not the only author in the bible. There are others. Try pater, John, Pames//
Gal 2 paul went the heathen(nations)US
Peter, James and John went the circumcision(Israel)
//Galatians 4:26 MOTHER OF US ALL.// Not bride
//Here is John
Revelation 21:9// one of Israel's apostles
---michael_e on 7/11/12


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We will search in vain to find any of this terminology in Paul's epistles.
---michael_e on 7/11/12

Paul is not the only author in the bible. There are others. Try pater, John, Pames

But here is paul:
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL.

Here is John
Revelation 21:9 Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

---francis on 7/11/12


So Jesus is to be wedded to bricks, mortar, and stone?
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/12

I have not seen any brick, mortar, or stone in the New Jerusalem.

Neither was John shown any people in the city. He as shown teh sity, and told it was the bride, the lambs wife.

If you have read from the bible that when John was shown the bride, the lambs wife, the Holy City that he was also shown people in it, simple post the text.

John was tols about the character of the people who would inhabit the city, but only the city is referred to as The lambs wife
---francis on 7/11/12


The terms "bride," "Lamb," and "wife" (in relation to the marriage of the Lamb) are found throughout the pages of prophecy. For example: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom" (John 3:29 cf. Jer. 2:32). "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29 cf. Isa. 53:7). "...for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready" (Rev. 19:7 cf. Isa. 54:4-7).

We will search in vain to find any of this terminology in Paul's epistles. In fact, Paul frequently makes reference to Christ as Savior, Lord and Head, but he never speaks of Him as the Lamb of God
---michael_e on 7/11/12


Apparently not I can't find where our apostle Paul speaking to the BoC mentions the word bride
---michael_e on 7/10/12

Here is what you are missing:

Eph 5:23 "For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church, and He is the Savior of the body"

Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her"

Eph 5:31-32 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/12


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This bride, the lamb's wife is NOT THE CHURCH but it is the New Jerusalem
---francis on 7/10/12

So Jesus is to be wedded to bricks, mortar, and stone? Some kind of inheritance Jesus gets for dying on the cross for all humanity.

No, Jesus is wedded to the PEOPLE who inhabit the New Jerusalem. And who are they?

Rev 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life"
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/12


Are the Body of Christ and the bride of the Lamb identical?
---Phil on 7/10/12

No they are not

Revelation 21:9 Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal,

This bride, the lamb's wife is NOT THE CHURCH but it is the New Jerusalem
---francis on 7/10/12


Eph 5:23-32 ...husband ...head ...wife, ...Christ ...head ...church: and ...saviour ...body. ...church ...subject ...Christ, ...wives ...husbands... Husbands, love ...wives, ...Christ ...loved the church, and gave himself ...present ...church, ...men to love their wives ...bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh ...Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--body-wife-church--->Christ
2Pe 3:16
---micha9344 on 7/10/12


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