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Do We Have Free Will

Do we actually have free will, with God changing his mind depending on what we "will," or was every detail about every person and thing foreknown and controlled by God from the start?

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 ---Geraldine on 7/10/12
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Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour:
yet what I shall choose I wot not!
---TheSeg on 7/18/12


Well MarkV, since Satan doesn't have a BOOK called the word of Satan, and since Satan does not talk to men through snakes these days, Yes, I can choose to OBEY GOD's WORD, or choose to be persuaded to do my own or be influenced by demonic spirits.

You really can't read and comprehend at all can you.

Faith is sometimes a hard thing to do. MY WILL chooses, without seeing any end result, to Obey God and His Word regardless.

Now I know you don't understand that, because you are a robot.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/12


Kathr, here is how much power you think that God has,

"MY WILL also chooses to OBEY God's Word or be persuades by the spirits of Satan."

God cannot persuade you but the spirit of satan can. Great. Satan more power then God. Something wrong with your picture.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/12


"The problem is in the Question. Does God change His mind depending on our choice AKA free will to chose or reject Him."
kathr4453

Here is one instance saying that He does, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
---Nana on 7/18/12


The problem is in the Question. Does God change His mind depending on our choice AKA free will to chose or reject Him.

The thing is, God knows beginning from end. We don't WILL anything anyway.

The will of man is in his conscience, mind, heart. It is the very essence that separates man from animal or plant.

God has no control whether i chose to pee my pants or use teh restroom. MY WILL controls my blatter, and I chose to either use the restroom or pee my pants.

MY WILL also chooses to OBEY God's Word or be persuades by the spirits of Satan.

When we do God's WILL, that is, His KNOWN mind of which He gave us through His Word, we surrender our own will to him.

---kathr4453 on 7/18/12




Oh for goodness sake, MarkV, YOU are the one who doesnt understand what the other 1000 people here are saying when they say we have "free will". Im guessing English isnt your first language. We are simply saying we have the ability to make a right decision or a wrong one. Being a "slave to sin" does not mean we choose the WRONG thing every single time! Ridiculous!

Can the unsaved alcoholic make a conscious decision to seek help to stop drinking? YES! They do it all the time. In the same manner, a sinner can recognize his need for help and when the Spirit and word of God show him who he is and who the Savior is. That man can then humble himself and seek the help or harden his heart and "drink" even more!
---LindaH on 7/18/12


No MarkV, I haven't lied. And others will attest here too to all the times you have accused me and others of WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION.

Have you lost it MarkV....I can pull up 1000 posts of you accusing others of SAVING THEMSELVES because they don't agree with your doctrine of Election((( God just waving His Magic wand WILLING YOU salvation based on nothing more than your definition of Sovereighty and God's Good Humor.)))

And Yes, you have often used the term Arminian. You and LeeJ, as if that is some dirty word to call someone.

You are a liar MarkV. REPENT! It's getting worse. Your conscience is becoming seered beynd the point of repentance. Repent while you still can!
---kathr4453 on 7/18/12


The Seg, I believe a lot of the problems with the words "Free will" is that in the world those words mean something completely different then what they mean in the Bible. In the Bible they are talking about the will of man. Thats why "Free will" is never mentioned as an ability that God gives to humans or else we would see it everywhere in Scripture. Because God knows the will of the lost is slave to sin. And that the will of the believer is a slave to righteousness, Christ. Though we are carnal when we walk in the flesh, it is not our permenant state of being when we are saved. It is something temporary, which will be taken care of by God at the Resurrection when we receive our new bodies prepared for eternity.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/12


Wait a minute the elect are not sinners?
Wow for a minute there I thought the elect didnt sin.
So then the elect are sinners too, for all have sinned.

You guys might want to take a minute here.
Now, did Christ make everything and everybody? Yes, he did right!
So would you agree he must have known what he was going to make.
So he knew them or knew of them before he made them.
Remember, why even the very hairs of your head are all numbered!
And here the hard part!

Well then:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
But, dont tell them ok. Why?
Because they wont believe you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/17/12


Kathr, I guess your day to tell the Truth has not come yet since you lied again when you said,

"It is funny how MarkV wants to call everyone an Arminian who does not believe his doctrine, as if that too is a dirty word."

Can you post one blog where I called someone an Arminian who does not believe in what I believe? It is you who is calling us names who disagree with your points Calvinist, Mormons. Only you are doing it. I do not see anyone else doing it but you. Maybe tomorrow you will tell the Truth for a change. Walk in the Spirit if you are of the Spirit. Maybe the Spirit will direct you to your medication.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12




We love Him because He first loved us. This is Scriptural. It sounds as though God is mean, but He is not, people sin because they want to sin and no part of God.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12

IN THAT WHILE WE WERE all sinners CHRIST DIED FOR US.

That's why we love Him, because He did first love us. The US here is not the elect, but SINNERS!
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


shira4368, please believe me when I tell you.
If I was going to point at anyone on this earth, the first person would be me.
You think I am not a sinner, I believe with all my heart God will forgive me.
But, understand something here. I am asking God to forgive me.

Do you now see the disbelief in me?
I know Christ came to earth and die for me.
So, why am I asking for forgiveness, he give freely?

Many people are telling you must believe or do something for it.
But, that just the point, there is nothing you can do for it.
It is a free gift of God. There so much I see.

Hope you understand this.
Love you, Peace
---TheSeg on 7/17/12


Linda, you said,

"Then they insult Gods loving nature and claim that He does not REALLY want all men to come to repentance but takes pleasure in the death of men."

We are not insulting God, were giving Him the right that He deserves. He is not obligated to save anyone. That He does is the miracle. He does not take pleasure in those who are lost. He just doesn't bring light to them in order that they will know Christ. The Spirit testifies of Christ and if the Spirit does not, then the person will always reject Christ, because he has no desire for Christ. We love Him because He first loved us. This is Scriptural. It sounds as though God is mean, but He is not, people sin because they want to sin and no part of God.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12


TheSeg, for some reason I thought you told us at one time you were RCC. My apologies if that was not you.

It is funny how MarkV wants to call everyone an Arminian who does not believe his doctrine, as if that too is a dirty word.


Maybe one day he will see he does exactly what he accuses others of.

God Bless TheSeg!
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


Is this free/will or free/choice?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly neither, right! All God's doing!
I could say:
How can anyone believe they chose?
But then he did say:

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

You think, I wonder if my heel is on the ground or in the air.
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/17/12


seg, I don't know who you were pointing your arrow at but I am nothing in myself. I am a born again christian and the spirit did convict me in an overwhelming way. I have never ever claimed I did it on my own...and you will never read where I said that...you said that not me. I know where my salvation came from and I know the day and place. humans can't do anything on their own...but the day the Spirit came down on me I made a choise to be saved or lost. We never have a promise of the Spirit visiting us over and over. That is why our missionaries are so important.
---shira4368 on 7/17/12


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kathr4453, No
I can honestly tell you I do not believe in any religion.
I only believe what I believe God has given me.

LindaH, Amen, got you!
I do believe Christ die for the sin of the world.

This is what I find so amazing.
Everyone says I believe in God, but they dont believe what the bible is saying.
So, the very ones that say they believe are really the ones that dont.

And just because someone doesnt profess God, to me doesnt mean he wont.
Just means he doesnt know him yet. Even the ones who say there is no God.
How stupid is that? There is no God. It clearly says God has blinded some.
So how can they see?
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/17/12


Brother Phil, thank you also for your answers, they were very good and simple. It doesn't matter how much is given to those who do not believe, they will reject it no matter what. Then Kathr will also call you a Calvinist or an RCC as she just did with The Seg or even a Mormon as she did with me, only because we spoke the Truth no other reason.
I wonder what kind of name she will give you also? Something to wait for I suppose. Accusation alway fly from Kathr. I remember at work when I spoke about the Lord, people got angry the same way she does. People don't like to hear the truth even many who claim to be Christian.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12


I do agree with those scriptures, Seg. We cannot know who Jesus is without the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.

Where the problem comes in is when man interjects his reasoning into scripture by assuming that because not all men will be saved that the Holy Spirit couldnt have possibly enlightened every man as to whom Jesus Christ is because "Jesus didnt die for everyone"! Then they insult Gods loving nature and claim that He does not REALLY want all men to come to repentance but takes pleasure in the death of men.

Instead of trusting exactly what the scripture says, they lean to their own understanding and change the meanings of very easy to understand words so that they support the doctrine that tickles their ears.
---LindaH on 7/17/12


---shira4368 on 7/15/12 mark v, we do have free will. I chose to be born again..."

Ro 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth.. but of God that sheweth mercy.

I must presume that shira4368 has saved him/herself, at least that is the confession of the mouth.

"everyone has free will whether they will be saved or not."

Jn 6:65 ... no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Seems like some think they had a hand in it. Glory to Man!

"The Holy Spirit draws a person."

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Shifting sand....
---Phil on 7/17/12


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Scripture is clear that a man can HEAR the Spirits voice and harden his heart against Him (Hebrews 3). This is the answer that evades MarkV and why he questions Gods love for all men. He would rather believe in "Irresistable Grace" than what the holy scripture says!
---LindaH on 7/17/12


MarkV: Are you not free to make the following choice?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

CHOOSE!


---jerry6593 on 7/17/12


The Seg, You are RCC too correct? Did they not teach you Jesus Saves, and that it is the Life of Christ in you that is the HOPE OF GLORY??

Do you even know what the Hope of GLORY is TheSeg?

That's the Key here...No Jesus NO GLORY!
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


Brother Seg, thank you so much for your answers and passages, they were very well done. I really don't know what people are learning this days. Why are they so wrong? Don't they see? Don't they have ears to hear? They do have a lot of accusations to say when you tell them the Truth. How can they miss the very words of God? They are there in plain sight but they don't want to listen or believe the plain Truth. Here is a passage they just don't believe,
"And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Who believed? those who were ordained to eternal life. Pretty simple isn't it?
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12


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Linda, everyone has a choice, but what they choose is motivated by what they desire, without a desire you will not choose. "You would not marry someone you hate." Before a person can makes a choice which is pleasing to God, he must have a desire to please Him, and in order to choose Christ they need to have a desire for Christ.
Fallen man lost the desire for God, (Rom. 3:11) The bible tells us fallen man is born in sin, and by nature children of wrath. They lost the moral ability to choose Christ. In order for the sinner to choose Christ he must first have a desire for Him. If God does not plant that desire in the human heart, left to themselves, they will never choose Christ. Read (Eph. 2:4-10).
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12


That is a grave error on your part, easily refuted by scripture.
LindaH on 7/16/12

How sure are you of that, because this is written!
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Co_12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
You cant even say that Jesus is the lord, without the Holy Spirit.

Eph_3:5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,
Romans 8
---TheSeg on 7/16/12


Hi Geraldine, Yes we have free will. We are able to freely sin all we want and then some.
Jer19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
The above verse states that God did not cause the children of Israel to sin.

Ro8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God did not predestinate events. He did predestinate his people to be conformed to the image of Christ.
So we are responsible for our own actions, but God, through Christ, saves his people from their sins (Matt 1:21).
---trey on 7/16/12


Mark, you are not "reborn" or "saved" until you have Christ in you! The Spirit of the life of Christ in you is what saves you. His blood pays for your sins and the Spirit gives you new life.

You have said in the past that a man is "saved" and that is why he comes to faith in Jesus Christ. That is a grave error on your part, easily refuted by scripture.

Did Will teach you that?
---LindaH on 7/16/12


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We need to remember, The Holy Spirit is our TEACHER, Comforter, and convicts of sin, but is not our Savior. And we are not being conformed to the image of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not die on a cross for our sin, and rise again for our justification.

MarkV has continued to claim he was saved, rebirthed by the Holy Spirit resulting in salvation. THAT is not the Gospel.

JESUS SAVES. MarkV denies the Gospel that one is saved by the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

MarkV has tried to climb over some other way...
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


Acts 5:32 also state that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY...Obey what one may ask....Obey the Gospel. scripture to back that up...****Romans 16:25-27!!!

Here's an example of free will. God promised Abraham ans Sarah a child. Abraham and Sarah made a CHOICE to bring about this on their own using Hagar...WOOPS! Did that thwart God's plan and purpose or His Promise. NOPE! God STILL, in spite of Abraham's lapse in faith fulfilled His Promise of Isaac. Didn't use Ishmael. So even our mess ups don't always work together for good!
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


MarkV are you saved by the Holy Spirit in you OR teh Spirit of Christ in you>>
AWWWWW, and now you want to deny teh Trinity and say, Oh but they are all teh same.

Oh but wait, Did the Holy Spirit DIE ON A CROSS, Shedding His OWN Blood?

Satan can counterfeit the Holy Spirit, However Satan CAN NEVER COUNTERFEIT the CROSS, the BLOOD, and CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of Glory!
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


Kathr, now you lie again. When will it stop? When you become born again, if God wants to change you. You say just because you cannot change the passages I gave you about the Spirit that Jesus gave,

"What you deny MarkV is CHRIST in you"

A person saved cannot deny Christ in them, that is rediculous. Jesus said the Spirit goes where it wishes just as the wind does, and it seems to me He has not gone your way.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


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Linda, I answer you honestly so that you can know the Truth.
The thing you have wrong is that Jesus was speaking to disciples question on how to pray and how to seek God as John also taught his disciples (v.11:1). Jesus would not contradict the words that Paul taught later that no one lost seeks after God. So when Jesus said to them,
"If you then, been evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him"
The disciples had not received the indwelling of the Spirit at that time, until Pentacost. "If you then been evil" means they had a sinful nature. As all human beings have. Yet they were believers already.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


Shira, a person does not choose to be born again of the Spirit---MarkV

(Luke 11:13)
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(John 4:14)
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
---LindaH on 7/16/12


Dr. Stanley signed up to do a conference at FBC-Jacksonville with Dr. Jerry Vines called "3:16". ( This was in 2008)

This conference is described as "a biblical and theological assessment of 5-point Calvinism. It will be helpful for preachers as well as lay people". The speakers include Drs. Stanley, Vines, Patterson, Land, and others. Sort of a "whos who" of general Baptists (ie...not Calvinist). Dr. Stanley will be preaching a sermon titled "John 3:16 to the entire world". I hope this lays to rest the silly assertion that Charles Stanley is a Calvinist. Stanley is a fine man of God and a wonderful preacher. However he is not, I repeat, not a Calvinist.

MarkV, did you hear that?
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


Kathr, you lied as I proved about the Spirit of the Law, as you lie all the time. You have a lot to say, but most of it is lies. I give you proof and you say nothing about it but more lies. Stop your lying, make a choice, you are free as far as no one has a gun to your head, but whatever choice you make will give evidence what desire is in your heart, of the flesh or of the Spirit. If you answer with more lies, it is of the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


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What that means Kathr is that the law reflects God's Holy character.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


What you deny MarkV is CHRIST in you, making Jesus Christ nothing more than a Spirit of the 10 commandments living in you.
You also fail to understand 2 Peter chapter 1, that we BY FAITH in His PROMISES are partakers of His divine Nature. WHAT? Faith in the 10 commandments? Hardly!

The NEW CREATURE is New In Christ, and Jesus is not now or ever under any law of 10 commandments now. For His live to be living through us that would put HIM under LAW.

You simply do not understand the Crucified life.

Galatians 2:20-21 OR the CROSS!
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


Who so ever will may come to my house today between noon and 6 and those who choose to show up, I will give you a loaf of bread, that you may live and not die of starvation.

But the choice is for you to make.

I won't FORCE anyone to show up. AND I will not force any guards at my gate to keep you from coming.

WHO SO EVER WILL may Come.
---kathr4453 on 7/16/12


Geraldine, I made that point at one time. It had no affect on him. Idk how ANY Christian with the Spirit of Christ living in them could be happy in their own salvation while believing that God doesnt offer the same grace to those that we love. It would also paint God as one who commands that WE love those that HE hates. Its a seriously perverse doctrine.
---CraigA on 7/16/12


MarkV: Are you not free to make the following choice?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

CHOOSE!


---jerry6593 on 7/16/12


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Shira, a person does not choose to be born again of the Spirit. After talking to Nicodemus Jesus gave this about the Spirit,
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit"

Linda, you said she gave me passages indicating we have a choice. Sure we have a choice, but not the right to choose evil, that's why we are found innocent or guilty. If God told man He was giving them a free will, then God could not judge us right or wrong since He gave us that permission to choose right or wrong. And He doesn't give us permission to choose wrong. The reason you do not find "free will" coming from God in the Bible.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


Kathr, again you lie about me on the blog of Matthew 3:14 that closed, You now say,

"Again the term "Spirit of the Law" is another of MarkV's inventions not found in scripture."

Did you not read,
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin" (Romans 7:14).

What that means Kathr is that the law reflects God's Holy character. God is Spirit Kathr, in case you did not know. When we walk in the spirit, we are walking in the spirit of the Law of God's Holy Character. And when you walk in the flesh, you are carnal as Paul had just testified in (Romans 7:14).
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


Mark V: How sad it is if the meaning of John 3:16 "whosoever believeth in Him" is correctly translated "whosoever God MAKES believe in Him." So apparently you think human beings are God's puppets. If true, we should weep for the puppets God throws in the garbage, or hell if that exists!
---Geraldine on 7/15/12


MarkV, she has given you many scripture showing man has the power to choose. You just refuse to see them because they are proof your doctrine is a lie and you have been deceived.

You've been well indoctrinated but that doesnt mean youve been taught correctly. Face it...you are scared to admit that you might be wrong and have led many people (including your own family) astray. The first step is opening your heart and coming back to the truth. There is always forgiveness.
---LindaH on 7/15/12


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Mark, I used to think you were just argumentative but now Im convinced the problem lies in your comprehension.

From the "WAS MAN EVER IMMORTAL" blog, you said...

"Giving a person a choice is not saying he has free will"---MarkV

Free will IS the ability to choose for ourselves!

Having free will doesnt guarantee we will ALWAYS make the wrong decision nor the right one!

This idea that men who are "dead" cannot choose to do the right thing is ludicrous! Your mind has been poisoned with it! It is blinding you, brother

Choosing Jesus Christ is a GOOD decision and one that God requires of us. God would not ask us to do something that we are incapable of.
---Blogger9680 on 7/15/12


Volition: the power to choose or determine: Will (Merriam-Webster)
Deu 30:19 ...choose life..
Jos 24:15 ...choose this day..
Can-are we able to choose?
May-are we allowed to choose?
Should-is it right to choose?
Will-do we want to choose?
Does not God give us all these through Christ?
Faith-Hearing-Word of God?
Free: not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself (Merriam-Webster)
This seems to be the "free" being discussed and goes back to ability.
Are we able to choose?
Ezr 7:13 ...minded of their own freewill...
I mean, if we have free will, we have free will, and it is given by God, us being made in His image.
Joh 8:36 ...free indeed.
---micha9344 on 7/15/12


markv, we do have free will. I chose to be born again when the Holy Spirit took my heart and it almost came out of my chest. everyone has free will whether they will be saved or not. The Holy Spirit draws a person and convicts them of their sin but they have the free will to ignore or accept.
---shira4368 on 7/15/12


There is no will that is free in humans beings. They have a sinful nature, and are in bondage to the devil (Eph. 2:2). When Christ saves them, their will, will be to do the desires of their new Father God Almighty. It will not be free.
Only God alone has a free will. Everything He does is alway righteous and just.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/12


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If Kathr, is so right with everything she has said and let me say she said a lot, can she show one passage where God said in His Word that man's will is free, just one passage. So much talk and not one verse. There should be many upon many as much as was said. It is like the same statement that God said Saturday was the Sabbath, and no one can find one verse that states that either. The Bible in fact tells us that the lost their wills are in bondage to sin and do the desires of their father the devil, it also tells us that the wills of those who are free from that bondage, are now slaves to Christ, even they don't have a free will. So put down all the passages Kathr or close the door.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/12


Aaaah, the free will question......

The church more agreed that sort of we don't: Augustinianism and predestination have been accepted by the church for 1500 years as correct.
---Peter on 7/15/12


Since GOD loves everyone and since he wants all to be saved. The idea of no free will means that no one will be lost and all will be saved.

In the meantime GOD is forcing people to sin and hurt others. So it is not the devil made me do it but GOD made me do it.

Either we are responsible for our sins or GOD is. If we are then we have free will. Knowing what choice we make does not force us to make that choice.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/12/12


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
---Phil on 7/12/12



YEP, OUR inheritance is Christ Himself int eh Heavenlies. God Predestined the CHURCH before the foundation of the world is certainly a fact. WHO SO EVER WILL may beling to the Church.

Ans we know that tehe inheritance of Earthly Israel is/was the Land and an Earthly reign of Jesus as King.

BUT TODAY those both Jew and Gentile are menbers of the Church..HIS BODY.

After we are raptured, THEN those promises to earthly Israel will come into play.

AND God predestined the CHURCH to reign and rule with Christ att that time.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


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It is unreasonable to assume God knows our every future move and thought. The Bible says no such thing. Though He could have created things that way, there is no warrant to believe this.

His power to shape our circumstances to conform our will to His will is absolute.
He alone is Sovereign. Does He understand our hearts, our thoughts, our desires? There is no doubt about that, and He operates accordingly, being made in His image is a process of the eons.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
---Phil on 7/12/12


It is the inability or unwillingness to rightly divide the word that causes some to resort to reasoning above receiving light.

----
---Phil on 7/12/12

EXACTLY Phil, and Ephesians 4 tells us we are not to tossed and turned by EVERY WIND of DOCTRINE that comes along.

It's the Maturity of our growth IN CHRIST who enlightens us, and by doing so we KNOW that what belongs to the CHURCH in the age of GRACE is completely of Christ in you, the Hope of Glory...

You know yourself by your own posts that many scriptures belong to Israel ALONE...and not to the CHURCH. Yet you contradict yourself by combining and applying scripture belonging to Israel to the Body of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


Reading all of these thoughtful blog answers has made me see my greatest need in pondering Free Will--I need TRUST more than proof. Not only BELIEF in God's purposes, and FAITH in the outcome of those purposes, but TRUST that it is ultimately about LOVE for us all.
---Geraldine on 7/12/12


Yes, the Saviour draws all men to Himself, but, not all men receive Him and His Salvation. The Scriptures say that MANY are called but FEW are chosen. Also, Wide is the Path that leads to Destruction and MANY there are that go thereat, and Narrow is the Gate that leads to (Eternal) Life and FEW there be that find it. So, a choice is involved in the Salvation/Redemption process for each individual human soul. The LORD offers and each person chooses to receive or reject.
---Gordon on 7/12/12


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kathr4453
I have been faithful to provide the Scriptural evidence for my conclusions. I can do litte more to aid you in your reasonings. If believing God is my problem, then I accept accountability for that choice.

The correct partitioning of the Word is what qualifies a worker of God, and this is what I strive to do.

It is the inability or unwillingness to rightly divide the word that causes some to resort to reasoning above receiving light.

The soilish person will always resort to reason, seeing that he cannot spiritually discern the things of God.
---Phil on 7/12/12


Well it looks as though these is a dilemma here, scriptures that show free will, and those that some insist do not show free will.

So what is the solution?
OH I KNOW. First we'll read all the text before and after each verse to see WHAT God was saying and WHO He was talking to.

So, with Phil's verses I have done that..

John 6, the verses before and after say...THOSE who are taught by the Father come to me. Now HUMMM, does that mean faith comes by HEARING and not pre-selection.. Oh! Yes it does doesn't it.

And all those other verses are where Phil? Romans 9-11? Oh then that explains it....God wasn't talking about YOU or about YOU was he!
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


We know when God speaks to Israel in Scrpture, they already KNEW God, and His WORD and His Laws etc.

In John 6 ,the Jews weren't coming to Christ at the CROSS. THEY were sizing Him us as their earthly KING to reign and rule and overthrow Rome right then and there. THEY did not understand Jesus FIRST had to go to the cross and rise again to be that KING scripture tells us will be a full grown man coming out of Heaven in all His Glory. Zechariah 12-14.

We see in the beginning of John 6 multitudes came to Jesus and more and more kept coming...but for the wrong reason....see in the beginning? Jesus left and went to the other side for fear they would make Him KING right then.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


It is so dangerous to take scripture out of context. Doesn't Jesus later in John say, IF I BE LIFTED UP I WILL draw all men unto ME. .

Those who take John 6 and Romans 9-11 out of context WILL NOT acknowledge what Jesus later said...

The Apostles went out into the world LIFTING UP Jesus Christ and Him CRUCIFIED and Risen and by doing so multitudes will be saved.

Paul said "God forbid that I would preach anything but Christ and Him Crucified"

Paul in Romans 9-11, is giving historical fact concerning Israel by showing God's Promises to Israel ALSO STAND.

If they didn't, YOU HAVE NO HOPE or any security yourselves. God could just as easily cast you off too.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


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SO Phil in conclusion that is the problem with Covenant Theology, Covenant Calvinism aka Replacement Theology.

YOU believe the Church is separate from those promises to Israel the nation YET you contradict yourself and use those promises to Israel and spiritualize away and apply them to the church.

It can't be both...a double minded man is unstable in all his ways...and your showing instability in your thoughts and doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/12


So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that show mercy.
For the scripture said unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardened.

It also asks:
Hath not the potter(God) power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

So, has the potter power over the clay or not?
If he does, then how can you have freewill?
If not, then I can understand how you think you do.
---TheSeg on 7/11/12


"Free will is not in the scriptures..."-Phil on 7/11/12
Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Lev 22:29 And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer [it] at your own will.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 verses-"freewill offering"
11 verses-"whosoever will"
---micha9344 on 7/11/12


kathr4453 on 7/11/12 But God has... given us free will to chose Him or Reject Him.

Really?

Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Ro 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness
---Phil on 7/11/12


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In DEUTERONOMY 30:19 Almighty GOD says "I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you Life and Death, Blessing and Cursing: therefore, CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live." Also, in Verses 15 thru 17, GOD expresses the offer for us to choose between two choices: Good and Evil, Life and Death. GOD gives us choices. That plainly shows we have the free-will to choose.
---Gordon on 7/11/12


From the beginning of the beginning of God's creations it seems like it was very important for those he made to have the ability to pursue their own minds or wills. God made angels and they had the ability to rebel against God,they exercised "Free Will". God created male and female and they rebelled against God's orders and exercised "Free Will"in doing so. All the time God only wanted to be chosen and loved above all things,he wanted fellowship. Even now we decide to accept Christ as Savior or reject Him. ---
---Darlene_1 on 7/10/12


AMEN Darlene1.

Just because God KNOWS beginnng from end, in no way says God made man human robots preprogrammed to do this or that.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


Paul also WARNS, be careful how YOU BUILD upon the foundation Paul laid.

God has not preprogrammed anyone's works to be burned. That is YOUR FREE WILL doing.

Now I don't have free will to change myself into a cow, or go to the moon...

But God has within His parameters given us free will to chose Him or Reject Him.


Jesus said " All day long I have reached out my hand to you, BUT YOU WOULD NOT "
---kathr4453 on 7/11/12


yes and yes. It is a false dichotomy, a "both, and" not an "either, or". God is big enough for your free will and to know the future and to contol=use our actions with our free will for his purposes, teaching, salvation etc.
---Scott1 on 7/11/12


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Free will is not in the scriptures. There is only One Free Will, that is God's.
Paul is clear on this subject, so it is best to accept his perspective (Rom 7:14-23)
Man is always trying to be in control, glorying in his flesh, and the myth of free moral agency is the creature glorifying itself as sovereign, even more powerful than our God. We make choices based on preferenes. God adjusts the next set of circumstances to move us toward His goal of becoming All in all 1C 15:28
Eph 1:11 (God is)the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.
---Phil on 7/11/12


Because of how we can be worldly, we can be very concerned about who has control. Independence can be an idol. So, this is why we can be overly concerned about how much control God really has. But, also, it can be a very honest concern . . . so we can understand just how much we really depend on God and need to depend on Him, at every moment, for all including His guidance. Here's one scripture that may help >

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)
---willie_c: on 7/10/12


Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him, As has been written in this blog-We decide to accept or deny the plan of the great salvation by faith we have and God's grace we are saved.

In other words, we decide our fate by acceptance or neglect of the plan administered in the gospel of Christ which is the power God uses to save
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
billy9676
---billy9676 on 7/10/12


At least most of the church history has felt more that God deems more than is not considered (the views of St.Augustine)

Though I always feel his views are a bit hard to understand!
---James on 7/10/12


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From the beginning of the beginning of God's creations it seems like it was very important for those he made to have the ability to pursue their own minds or wills. God made angels and they had the ability to rebel against God,they exercised "Free Will". God created male and female and they rebelled against God's orders and exercised "Free Will"in doing so. All the time God only wanted to be chosen and loved above all things,he wanted fellowship. Even now we decide to accept Christ as Savior or reject Him. God still wants to be loved and chosen,He wants our love and fellowship.
---Darlene_1 on 7/10/12


I agree with Cluny.
The sovreignty of God is not deminished nor belittled by the gift He has bestowed on mankind to choose his path.
It is because of this gift that our love for Him can be true and not manipulated.
For the Father seeks such...
This also does not discredit His Omniscience in any way, for He knew our choices, past, present and future, before the foundation of the world...hence the "elect."
Nor does it affect His omnipotence in the least.
Restraint does not equate to lack of ability.
Meek is not weak.
Longsuffering.
God's plan is unfolding just as He knew it would.
---micha9344 on 7/10/12


To see a man hit his thumb with a hammer is not the same thing as planning for him to do it, much less making him do it.

How our free will fits in with God's eternal NOW is a mystery we can't fathom this side of the Kingdom, and maybe not even on the other side of its threshold. That's why He's God and we are not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/12


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