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Was Man Ever Immortal

In Genesis 3:22, God says that 'lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and live forever'.

Is there anything definite or well implied that man before the fall was immortal (I hear suggestions on both sides), or could it be that man even then would die and be resurrected?

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 ---Peter on 7/10/12
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Nana 2: you cannot give half the truth without the other half, or in other words, give (John 6:45 without John 6:44). That was my point.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/12


Nana, you forgot to read (v. John 6:44). He was not talking about people having free will, or that those in (v.6:45) who are taught are the lost. In fact (v. 6:44) tells us who those people are,

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"
Those are the ones who are taught of God
"Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me"

Not one thing about man choosing Christ, or even having a free will to choose Christ. This is totally the work of God, not the work of man or man having to choose first if he wants God to do that or not. He draws them.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/12


Phil our original debate concerned Adam-was he made perfect, with free-will. Regarding Adam environment, circumstance and heredity were created perfect, untarnished by sin, therefore lending no support to your man is programmed to sin theory. If Adam was programmed, not free to choose for or against God, then God who is just perfect and merciful could not judge Adam for doing what he was programmed to do. In Scripture God bemoans man's faithlessness. Programmed robots cannot be faithless, as faithlessness, like faith is a decision.

Our decisions are influenced by certain factors but ultimately the choice is ours, and this is what we are judged upon. As in a human court we are not held responsible if we did not know what we were doing.
---Warwick on 7/18/12


Colossians 1:27-29
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Allan on 7/13...

The difference between Adam even sinless and those IN CHRIST is yes, God never said Adam was perfect, because Adam was never IN CHRIST.

So the fact is, those IN CHRIST are PERFECT, only because Christ in us is perfect. We are a perfect "7" in Christ. A New Creature.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/12


Jesus also said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ..., how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Why would have God repeatedly do that if not because that is the order of things?
God the Father, as any other father, teaches rather than brainwash his children which is what he would be doing if he gave man his 'desires'.

John 6:45 tells the pattern.
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
Do not think I am writing to convince you.
---Nana on 7/18/12




Kathr, you put down a good passage but was missing much of it.

"And the Spirit and the Bride say "Come", and WHO SO EVER will may come..."

Here is the passage,
"And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come" And let him who hears say, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely"

A big difference then what you said. Only those who desire can take of the water that is freely given. It does not say a person has a free will, for the simple reason that he has to desire of the water, and only those who hear will say, whoever desires of the water come, it is free.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/12


They have to be given that desire. Jesus also said, "You are not "willing" to come to Me that you might have light"
---Mark_V. on 7/18/12


Jerry I totally agree, and here is that proof, that verse MarkV just posted.

They were not willing, nothing about God was not willing them to come to Him, and God was not Willing them to not come to Him.

THEY puts the responsibility on the THEY/YOU not God!

And the Spirit and the Bride say "Come", and WHO SO EVER will may come...

So the Spirit and the Bride, that is HIS BODY are calling out to whosoever will.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/12


"The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agent"

It is apparent to the thinking person that one's actions are determinded by environment, circumstance, and heredity'

I cannot imagine any "freewiller" on these posts sitting down with a bottle of poison and downing it, no matter how "free" they think they are. To do so would show insanity, a mind lost to greater unseen forces.

Our actions are determined on preferences. Those are formed from experiences. No one is free from influence.

Honesty and wisdom precludes holding to free will as sound doctrine.

God alone has this freedom from external agents. Hence our need of His Spirit to guide us always.
---Phil on 7/18/12


Most professing christians have been so thoroughly indoctrinated with the idea that the evidence for freedom is the ability to choose that they do not realise that the Bible does not teach any such connection.

Freedom is never a function of political, economic or religious systems. And to say that or to imply it, is to disregard biblical teaching.

Today's christianity and Christians are defined more by their politics than by their faith in God and their practice of the Principles of Grace. So, within that unholy confusion, a good American is a good Christian, in that order. And the perversion does not end there. For evil and wickedness are defined by political and economic structures and not by unrighteous and immoral actions.
---Allan on 7/18/12


kathr:

free will = freedom of choice

Any other definition does injury to the language and to common sense.


---jerry6593 on 7/18/12




Brother Micha, freedom to choose is not saying your will is free." The bible tells us the will of man is corrupt. It declares that the lost are slaves to sin (Rom. 6:16), how can they be free if their will is to do the desires of their father? If they had a free will, they would have no desires or motivations of any kind. But everyone chooses what they desire. If your will was free indeed, and you made a choice sponstaniously, God could not judge you right or wrong. Jesus says choose, make a choice, but those who are lost will not choose Christ, they have no desire to choose who they do not desire. They have to be given that desire. Jesus also said, "You are not "willing" to come to Me that you might have light"
---Mark_V. on 7/18/12


Interesting Allen, Democracy is the idea of "the will of the people", vs communism and the likes where a wicked ruler, say as in N Korea allows no such freedom of choice. They truly are kept in bondage. Yet, if those walls came down and people were allowed to see and know how the majority of the rest of the free world lived, being allowed to make choices, you would see the RESULTS of those free will choices.

The RCC too robbed the free will and free choice of man to make choices based on one's own conscience.

But Praise God the free will of man based on man's conscience rose up, choosing out of their own free will to DIE for what they believed in.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/12


There is no difference between "freedom to choose" and "freewill."
God has given us the ability, authority, morality, and willing to choose.(could, may, should, and would)
It is to His glory that He has done so-potter and clay.
---micha9344 on 7/17/12


American christianity has always associated the notion of being free and freedom with the idea of choice or the ability to choose. What is significant, in this issue, is that the Bible does not state or imply, in any way, that freedom means the exercise of the human will.

There will not be much agreement with this, but take an honest look it. Most American christians have used their peculiar, political notions of being free and of freedom to impose those peculiarities on the interpretation of scripture. Human beings experience true freedom only when his mind is free of fear and of worry and only God is the giver of that kind of freedom. An absolutely free will is a human invention.
---Allan on 7/17/12


Can anyone come up with scripture where God said He "willed" something to happen? So your definition of free will is the POWER to WILL something to happen,.....like magic or something, correct?

So you say God uses some sort of magic "to will" things to happen?But we can't correct?
Hummm


So when you say, according to "God's will", you really mean according to God's Magic powers.

Well then, using YOUR definition, God is not WILLING any should perish...in other words God is not using His Magic powers to keep you LOST.

His WILL( AKA heart, mind purpose) is that you REPENT.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


Mark, if man has no free-will, he has no freedom to choose one way or the other. As we have freedom to choose we must have free-will.
---Warwick on 7/17/12


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"...Eventually the rip will lose strength, and the swimmer can swim
at a leisurely pace, in a diagonal direction, away from the rip but
back to shore."

The difference between a wise man, which built his house upon
a rock and a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand
show that choices without understanding are no choices at all.
Free does not mean detached, rather it means - with understanding,
else why was it said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall
make you free."?
---Nana on 7/17/12


Someone please give the definition of:

Free will=
Free choice=

Maybe if we knew what your definition of the two is and the difference in the two we might understand.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


Warwick on 7/15/12 "Phil, you miss the obvious"

My dear fellow believer. I suppose the fact that "free will" is not taught in the Scriptures, that it is a vain philosophy of man, and God never mentions it anywhere in His Word, escapes you.

I cannot ascribe to another being what is solely an attribute of God. He alone can will things freely, no one or no thing influencing Him.

Man's puny will is a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. There is no other beneficial or logical choice.

The strength of you position is without biblical evidence. The phrase "free will" is not a scriptural term.
---Phil on 7/17/12


Warwick, God never gave man a "free will" He gave them freedom to choose, and they are responsible for what they choose. But that's not saying God gave man a free will. If He did then man can choose what he wants and is not responsible for what he does since God gave him that freedom. At a human level we see that people can enjoy a real measure of freedom in a land ruled by our sovereign Lord. It is not freedom that is canceled out by sovereignty, it is automomy that cannot coexist with sovereignty. God did not make everyone automomus, a law unto themselves. Only God is Automomus. Automomy implies absolute freedom. We are free, but there are limits to our freedom. The ultimate limit is the sovereignty of God.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/12


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Calvinists: Are you not free to make the following choice of your own free will?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

CHOOSE!


---jerry6593 on 7/17/12


That is a free will. And no one has it but God. Everyone makes choices for a reason, and we are judge by our choices.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12

I agree with Warwick here. Jesus said "follow me"...OH but follow what and follow where? It was because Jesus was made flesh and tempted in every way such as WE, that He can identify with US and we in turn IDENTIFY with Him as we identify with Him in death and resurrection life, crucified with Christ.

YOUR WILL must surrender to God's will.

This is what MarkV and calvinists deny in their doctrine of salvation.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/12


Mark, as I see it a person without free-will is akin to a robot, who responds only to its programming. I am sure Jesus (and man) was not programmed only able to respond, as programmed, but to think, and choose. The reality is that Jesus chose to do what He did. He was not programmed to do so.
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" Hebrews 4:15. This Scripture shows Jesus had free-will but chose to do God's will. Adam also knew God's will but chose to sin, as we do. No robotic pre-programmed responces here.
---Warwick on 7/16/12


Phil, wow.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

I dont know for sure yet!
But it does look like this is saying, if, I have the choice remove this cup from me.
I do have to look at this.

And only because in the beginning God told man of every tree in the garden you may freely eat.
Being the tree of life was there already and only one tree was forbidden.
Again all God doing!

Very helpful to me in my belief, thanks!
---TheSeg on 7/16/12


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Warwick, Phil has a good point. Jesus will "in His humanity" was not free, because His desires were to do the will of His Father. If His will was free it would have "no desires or inclinations, of any kind. He didn't want to die as we know when He prayed to the Father, He said,
"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me, Nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done" (Luke 22:42). Jesus in His humanity had to obey the will of His Father or else He would sin by rebelling against God. A free will means there is no desires of any kind to make you choose one way or another. That is a free will. And no one has it but God. Everyone makes choices for a reason, and we are judge by our choices.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/12


Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,
And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

1John 4!
---TheSeg on 7/15/12


Phil, you miss the obvious. If John 5:30 read-I have no free-will to do other than follow the Father's will-you have a point. But Jesus says He seeks to do the Father's will meaning He has free-will/choice. Read John in the light of Philippians 2:7 "but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." He did this by free-will, to come as the lowest of servants John 13:1-7, to take the penalty due to us.

Those who hear the gospel, by free-will, accecpt or reject God's free gift.

We must always be prepared "to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you,..." 1 Peter 3:15 Are you ready and able to do this Phil?
---Warwick on 7/15/12


Warwick on 7/14/12 "Phil, if Jesus was.. bound to do God's will, having no choice to do otherwise, then His sinlessness is no credit to him".

Jn 5:30 I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father

Jn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jesus was not looking for "credit" to His account. Self-righteousness was not his cup of tea.

I said nothing of "having no choice".

Being "bound" does not imply coercion. The binding I speak of consisted in His knowing the will, purpose, and love of His God, and seeking that above all else
---Phil on 7/15/12


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Warwick, you need to lay off the wine too and read...
Are you saying that there are no christians addicted to alcohol, food or drugs?
Besides, the subject is whether we teach one another or the holy spirit that teach solely.
Does it make a difference to Pete down the gas station what you are commanded if you do otherwise than told?
Never heard the expression used when someone acts or says something far-out, "Are you drunk?" (Acts 2:15)

"Nana, are you a teacher?
Does not the bible itself teach?"
---TheSeg on 7/15/12

Why don't you follow your advice and shut up?
Why don't we leave children to just grow as wild weeds and delegate their upbringing to the bible and the holy ghost?
---Nana on 7/15/12


Nana, the verse you quoted does not say lay off wine but don't be drunkards. There is a gulf of difference. The word 'sober' in your KJV quote is 'sophron' in Greek corectly today translated 'self-controlled.' We Christians are commanded to be 'self-controlled' not addicted to alcohol, food, drugs etc.
---Warwick on 7/15/12


Nana, are you a teacher?
Does not the bible itself teach?

The Holy Spirit is the only teacher?
That we should both labor and suffer reproach?

And the last thing I wrote, where Christ told his disciple:
Know ye what I have done to you?
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well, for so I am.

If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord, neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

All true!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/15/12


Peter, Allan brings very good points. We do know Adam and Eve had no sin nature before the fall. But when God gave them the ability to choose I believe that was their fault before they sinned. That ability tainted them. God has the ability to choose and when He does it is always perfect and just, Adam with his ability to choose is not the same as God having the ability to choose. Because man with the ability, his choices are not always good. So he was very good until the choice was given to him. Why he chose to sin no one knows.
Giving a person a choice is not saying he has free will, as long as man lives after the fall, his will is not free, he is born with a sinful nature and his desires are to do the desires of his father the devil.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/12


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Titus 2:3_4: "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things,
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."


Lay of the wine for your own good!
---Nana on 7/14/12


If I were to teach, first thing I would try to teach you would be, you are not a teacher!
The Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.
And you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
These things command and teach.

But, then Im not your teacher!
If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
---TheSeg on 7/14/12


Phil, if Jesus was, as you say, bound to do God's will, having no choice to do otherwise, then His sinlessness is no credit to him. His credit is that "being found in human form, he humbled himself (choice) by becoming obedient (choice) unto the point of death, even death on a cross' Philippians 2:8. This was His choice.

Likewise John 3:16 contains choice, and choice can only be choice if it comes from free-will. "that whoever believes (choice)in him should not perish..."

"That the remnant of mankind may seek (choice) the Lord,... Acts 15:17. If they have no free-will then they cannot choose to seek the Lord.

Adam was not born sinful (as you agree) but chose sin, via free-will.
---Warwick on 7/14/12


God chooses alright as we are told:

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

And again,

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

What is it that you teach, TheSeg, 'Don't worry, be happy, God will find you and reward you on a whim if he so chooses'?

I rather teach this:
"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he
is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his
thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
---Nana on 7/14/12


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Man has never been immortal and is still not immortal. Immortality is a future event. Only The Eternal has immortality now (KJV) 1 Tim 1:17, 6:16. The followers of Christ are now seeking for immortality and eternal life Rom 2:7. The future rewards of the faithful followers of Christ will receive the promised gift of immortality. This gift was manifested 2 Tim 1:10 (told to us) by our Lord, and will be given when he returns 1 Corin 15:53,54. Immortality as a future event is understood perfectly because all mankind will die first Heb 9:27.

~ humble follower of The Rock and lover of The Eternals truth (KJV) Matt 16:18, 1 Corin 10:4, 2 Thess 2:10
---Follower_of_Christ on 7/14/12


Nana, I try not to omit anything, but the word limit.

You basically said that God doesnt forces anyone to believe.
(I just wonder if Paul would agree)

So you dont believe God has been trying to forces man to believe.
Because as you say, he just gives you a choice, right?
(How can you chose, if you dont know him?)

Youre saying a man can refuse God, (so-be-it) if he wanted to, right?
And this is ok with God, because he gives you the choice.
So, it is possible to refuse God.
And this is the understanding given to you by God.
Wow man.

As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/14/12


Adam, before he sinned, was the ideal human being.
---Allan on 7/13/12
Many points here Adam, that are well thought out. It is easy to throw around words and not consider their import.I appreciate this post.
Jesus the Christ is what Adam was kick started forward into. I know Jesus Christ, and He was no Adam. Creating is Elohim man in His image. That is the sense of the passage.

The man Christ Jesus, the mediator, presently is the only Ideal human being. It is His image we are being conformed to and Adam was the start of that goal. It was planned by God.
---Phil on 7/14/12


Phil, Are you saying man was originally created... sinful... Warwick on 7/13/12

These queries you present skirt the point. The doctine of Free Moral Agency does not exist in Scripture.God's testimony to us is the opposite.

Adam was not created "sinful". He had no knowledge of evil. He was not like God. He was imperfect. To be like God requires that knowledge. It is the purpose of the King of the Eons 1Ti 1:17 to change that. The plan began with Adam and consummated in Christ, in Whose image we are all going to be changed into.

Holy Spirit cannot generate unholiness. Jesus Christ was sinless. He had a human will as ours, but is was not "free" at anytime. He was bound to do Another's will.
---Phil on 7/14/12


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So then we can, by Simple logic! Forget the parts where Christ said:
I have chosen, and just assume he means, that they should follow him, right!

So in Mat 8:19, the certain scribe that came to him. What happen?
For he said Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Christ replied:
Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Or when in Mat 8:18, when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.
I guess they should have just followed him, right!
Because God cannot just pick anyone he wants!
Is that about right?
---TheSeg on 7/14/12


Phil, I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying man was originally created already sinful, and had no free will to choose to sin or not to sin?

If so was Jesus also born with this imperfection, and with no free will?
---Warwick on 7/13/12


Alan, Genesis tells us God created Adam and Eve "very good" and "in God's own image." Are you saying that God described them this way but made them with flaws and imperfections from the moment of their creation?
---Warwick on 7/13/12


"Why dont we believe it?
Its impossible, right!"
---TheSeg on 7/13/12

What's impossible?
John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, ..."
The portion of John 6:65 above which you conveniently omitted, spells out that Jesus was refering to their unbelief (Joh 6:64), not that God forces anyone to believe as you seem to imply.

John 10:38 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
Simple logic, why didn't they believe?

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
---Nana on 7/13/12


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Matthew_8:22 "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead."
They were called to choose.
Nana on 7/13/12

But werent they chosen?
Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
I mean going by what Christ said.

When Christ told them:
Joh_6:65, no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Isnt that when John_6:66, from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Just saying, looks like they got it.
It must be given to you, you must be chosen!
And yes you are free to believe it or not.
Why dont we believe it?
Its impossible, right!
---TheSeg on 7/13/12


"If you insist on believing what is not in the Bible, i.e., free will, then it is quite likely there are many things you believe that are not scriptural."
Phil

John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
There, Jesus declares that he is always aligned to the Father.

Matthew 8:22 "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead." They were called to choose.

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Clearly, they were free to leave.

"Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" Choose again.
---Nana on 7/13/12


I read several comments with regards to the use of the word, "perfect". However, the phrase Very good was used to describe Adam. And Adam was the best of what it meant to be human. He was pure and he was sinless, but he was always human.

Perfect or perfection presents the notion of incapable of being tainted, defiled or changed. Moreover, perfection embodies the ideas of immutability, omniscience, omnipotence and so on, and these qualities are the attributes of God, the Creator of the universe, alone.

Man, at no point, possessed any of these qualities and therefore, could not have been perfect, in the same sense, that God is perfect.

Adam, before he sinned, was the ideal human being.
---Allan on 7/13/12


Your saying man was like Christ(God)
---theSeg

No, Adam did not have the omni-presence, exist outside of time, full knowledge. But he could commun perfectly with God face to face, sinless, eternal. These are the attributes Jesus gave up when he came to earth as francis mentioned.
Good question-making me think
---Scott1 on 7/13/12


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Warwick on 7/12/12 said,Phil... That assumes free will is a flaw and I do not believe it is.

If you insist on believing what is not in the Bible, i.e., free will, then it is quite likely there are many things you believe that are not scriptural.

If you can entertain a notion that seems inspired to you, and then, if the Word of God does not support it, you still believe it, should alert you to error.

If it is not in the Bible, it is not inspired or God-breathed.

We all hold to errors. Nevertheless, aligning oneself to the Scriptures, and using them when speaking of matters spiritual is the safeguard against it. Human phraseology, such a free will, is unnecessary. God is very clear in His revelation to us.
---Phil on 7/13/12


"Is there anything definite or well implied that man before the fall was immortal" No.
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:17 Implies that if he did not partake of this tree he would not die. Yet the warning itself implies that man in and of himself was subject to death, thus mortal.
---josef on 7/13/12


Seq, for God to say His creation was (at its completion) "very good" is even an understatement when it came to Adam and Eve who, as Francis has pointed out were made in God's very image, Genesis 1:27. Being created in God's image they could not have been created flawed. They were though, created with free-will, and chose to rebel against God. However they were not created flawed, with no choice but to sin, otherwise how could God judge them, and curse the world because of their decision to sin?

Considering what Genesis 1:27 and 31 say I am definitely not distorting what Scripture says.

Of course Jesus was not created, but is eternal God.
---Warwick on 7/13/12


So now let me see if I got you guys.
Gen_1:27 Making man in the image of God and 2Co_4:4 who is the image of God.
Also mean the same thing, just like good and perfect?
And you call this, a rock solid point!

Are you guys for real or are you putting me on?
Youre joking right?

Your saying man was like Christ(God)
Please!
---TheSeg on 7/13/12


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Would someone perfect keep it?
---TheSeg on 7/12/12
Well I see what you are sayings.
But God is perfect and Adam created in God's image could be no less than perfect

Jesus who is God and is perfect has the same choices as Adam did to sin or obey, Jesus choose to obey, Adam chooce to sin.

Ezekiel 28:15 Satan who was created perfect had the same choices as Adam and Jesus he choose to sin.

So when gdo made his creatures perfect, perfection included free will to chooce to obey t or choose to sin. The ability to choose sin or righteousness was part of the package that made all perfect

If his creatures and HIMSELF did not have those choices they would have been flawed
---francis on 7/13/12


Would someone perfect keep it?
---TheSeg on 7/12/12

Let me ask it a different way. Have you ever done something you knew was wrong but did it anyway? This is what Adam and Eve did. They were perfect but choose to make there own decisions, just like we do.
---Scott1 on 7/13/12


Warwick, get something straight, I am not the one changing what is written, you are!
lets be clear!

Now Warwick is Christ created, you dont believe that do you?
So His provided Saviour/Salvation is perfect!

You asked is heaven therefore flawed.
Heb_12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth(in the past): but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
(If heaven is perfect, why has he promised to shake it too?)
Heb_12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are (made), that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

If there is even one thing made that is perfect!
Why, Rev_21:5?
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/12/12


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Again to you this is saying man was made perfect?

francis, you say you keep the commandments, dont you. Is this a commandment?
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Would someone perfect keep it?
---TheSeg on 7/12/12


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Seq, Francis makes a rock solid point. As man was made in God's image he cannot have contained any flaw when made. If you say man was made flawed then God is likewise flawed. But man was not made flawed, but with free will which he exercised for evil. That is why we talk of Adam's fall.
---Warwick on 7/12/12


---TheSeg on 7/12/12
I will do you one better than Ezekiel 28:15

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

That is perfection for any creature to be made in the image of God

please note that Jesus is also in the inmage of God 2 Corinthians 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God,

So christ is perfect, and Adam and Eve was created in His image which made thjem perfect also
---francis on 7/12/12


Phil, I believe it an unwaranted assumption to say Adam and Eve were created flawed. That assumes free will is a flaw and I do not believe it is. Jesus (the last Adam 1 Corinthians 15:45) also had free will but chose not to sin. Was He also flawed? If so how, and where does Scripture say that?

As God called His finished creation "very" or 'exceedingly' "good." How can anyone imagine God, who is perfect (you believe that don't you?) would creat man flawed then call Him 'exceedingly good?'
---Warwick on 7/12/12


Seq, I assume, you believe God is perfect, i.e. He does not sin, nor lie. In Genesis 1:31 He says that His finished creation (obviously including man) was "very (or exceedingly) good." Now this is God talking, in His terms but you insist God's exceedingly good is imperfect, flawed? Now that is a shocking thing to consider. Is His provided Saviour/Salvation also flawed? Is heaven therefore flawed?

You like others confuse man's free will with imperfection. The imperfection/flaw did not reside in man as created but in their choices.

You ask "Where does he say, my finished Creation was very good?' In Genesis 1:31. What is there outside of "everything?"
---Warwick on 7/12/12


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Wow
If everything was perfect where did the iniquity come from?
From whence did it come to "enter in"?
Did God create the iniquity?
If not, how does iniquity come from perfection?
On the other hand, if it was "excellent" or just "very good" then there must have been a flaw somewhere.
Isn't that where Christ comes in?
Quite enlightening
---micha9344 on 7/12/12


francis, youre also saying man was made perfect from the beginning.
And dont tell me let me guess, youre given me Ezekiel_28:15, as if to say see?
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
And this is saying man was made perfect!

Again guys, I have no problem with you believing anything you want.
The problem is when you take what is written in scripture and change it.
And dont feel you have!

Like in Gen_1:31 when God himself said, very good!
But you say differently, that all.
Forgive me, but what you believe is scary.
Because youre saying, God can make something perfect.
And it can become corrupted. This is a lie!
---TheSeg on 7/12/12


You mean the ground, why did God curse the ground?
I think he said why, didnt he in Gen 3:17!
Cursed is the ground for thy sake!
Rather then curse Adam and Eve, who he loved, he curses the ground, for thy sake!
Sound clear doesnt it?

(Then God says His finished Creation was 'very good') No!
He said in Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Where does he say, my finished Creation was very good?

Are we also adding to Gen 2:1?
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Warwick, again if you want to believe good means perfect.
Thats up to you, isnt it?
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/12/12


"...Adam & Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden after their sin (fall from grace). They no longer had access to the tree of life, so they died. After the resurrection at the 2nd coming of Jesus, we will 'put on immortality' (1 Cor 15:52-54) & will once more have access to the tree of life (Rev 22:2)."
---jerry6593 on 7/11/12


Adam & Eve were cut off (died & denied access to the tree of life) because of their grave error in judgment (sin). Dead people eat nothing but dust, metaphorically speaking. The only way for dead souls to eat of the tree of life, that which is "forever" life sustaining, is for us to be born again & ultimately resurrected by God. (John 11:25)
---Leon on 7/12/12


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Then it must be God who is flawed, because he made some things perfect.
And they back fired, even the angels which kept not their first estate.
---TheSeg on 7/11/12

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

only when iniquity entered both Cherub and Man was the creature not perfect
---francis on 7/12/12


jerry6593 on 7/12/12 said:
The: God did indeed make our first parents perfect in their freedom of choice. But they chose to believe the evil one instead of Him.

It is easier to say something is truth than to provide evidence. Where is your evidence that they were perfect?

Where are the Bible verses to support your claims?

How are we to sympathize with you on this if you cannot demonstrate in Scripture that what you state is truth?

We need truth, not assumption and reasoning, Jerry.

Where does it say they did not believe God, that dying they would surely die?
---Phil on 7/12/12


Warwick on 7/12/12 said: If it began imperfect, what did Adam's sin do? If it was already imperfect why did God curse it?

Perfect means "flawless". Adam and Eve, out of their own hearts, chose to disobey God. Did He not know this? Yes, He did, and He arranged this flaw, so that man would strive to know his Creator and fill His heart with joy as willing creatures of His hand.

Our first parents knew not love, nor fealty. All things had been given to them from the beginning. They did not see this blessing, nor value it over evil. They were as children. They were unable to provide love to God.

They were created flawed for a purpose.
---Phil on 7/12/12


Seq, I give it to God that His 'good' is so far above what we can make 'good' as to be incomparable. Then God says His finished Creation was 'very good', a superlative. It was so because He made it perfect, with no sin, death, or disease. If it began imperfect, what did Adam's sin do? If it was already imperfect why did God curse it?
---Warwick on 7/12/12


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The: God did indeed make our first parents perfect in their freedom of choice. But they chose to believe the evil one instead of Him.


---jerry6593 on 7/12/12


You know it will always get me, when someone says:
In the garden Adam and Eve were perfect!
Then it must be God who is flawed, because he made some things perfect.
And they back fired, even the angels which kept not their first estate.

Why even God clearly says:
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Even if God would have said, very, very, very good!
It would still not be perfect!

I know if God wanted to say perfect, he would have!
But, he didnt, he said good!

Nothing without Christ can be perfect!
Just saying, God himself said, Good!
Why change it?
---TheSeg on 7/11/12


Adding to Francis' response, Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden after their sin (fall from grace). They no longer had access to the tree of life, so they died. After the resurrection at the 2nd coming of Jesus, we will "put on immortality" (1 Cor 15:52-54) and will once more have access to the tree of life (Rev 22:2).


---jerry6593 on 7/11/12


Man was created in the image of God an eternal spiritual being. Gen CH 1 "Let us make man in our image." In the garden Adam and Eve were perfect thus they were immortal just like God and had perfect relationship between man and God. God wanted us to learn good and evil by faith (following God) not by experience (eating of the tree of good and evil). This separation (sin) between us and God could not be restored except through death. "Wages of sin is death" In God's grace he removed our access to the tree of life so that through faith in the second Adam (Jesus) we could be restored to former relationship with God. If we had access to tree of life we would live forever but without the relationship to God.
---Scott1 on 7/11/12


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1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,
Who only hath immortality,

Every creature of God can be subject to die, only God is immortal and only God can grant immortality

Adam had to eat from the tree of life to keep on living

In the earth made new we too must eat of the tree of life to keep on living
---francis on 7/10/12


Gn 3:19 till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
God is Spirit. Sons and daughters must become spiritual beings if they are to be like Him in His image. Adam ate from every tree, the Tree of Life included. He was mortal, certain to die without it. See Re 2:7
Man did not "fall", Scripture never mentions such a thing. It was God's plan from the beginning for Adam to disobey, creating him flawed and mortal,in order to experience good and evil. The Lamb was already provided for.Re 13:8
---Phil on 7/10/12


Hi, Peter (c: God bless you (c: I would say if God warned him that he would die in the day he ate the forbidden fruit, this means he was capable of living without dying, therefore he was able to keep on living. But if he could die, he was mortal! Hmm, I didn't think of this, before (c: We all have more to learn, don't we? (c: lol
---willie_c: on 7/10/12


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