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Was Adam Created Perfect

If Adam was created perfect, who is held reponsible for causing Adam's "fall"?

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 ---Phil on 7/19/12
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francis,
Repeating the same things over and over again does not make it true.
---micha9344 on 7/29

Ignoring the word of God does not make it untrue

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Perfection in God's eves is being without SIN
Both Adam and lucifer were created perfect, without sin

That is also what it means to be in THE IMAGE OF GOD
---francis on 7/29/12


Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I do feel comfortable knowing everybody has sin.
For this very purpose God sent Jesus here.
And anyone who says I have not sinned is a liar.
2Co_12:9!

Deuteronomy_32:4 He is the Rock, his work are perfect
Because God alone knew he was going to send Jesus to finish his work.
And he did Joh_19:30 It is finished!

Ezekiel_28:15 you were unblemished in your ways!
Is not saying you were created perfect.
God even said Gen_1:31, everything is very good!

If you guys want to change that, that's your choices. Right!
---TheSeg on 7/29/12


Micha, "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." When God whose work is perfect makes man very good and in his own image there is no imperfection in him. This is no downgrading. If man was not made perfect he was made flawed. That you believe Adam was not made perfect, to me means you believe he was made flawed. Is this not a proper deduction?
---Warwick on 7/29/12


God, the Creator of all things visible and invisible, is creating man in His Own image.

A knowledge of good and evil is required of sons and daughters, to be like Him.

It must be voluntary subjection to Him. A desire, out of love, to be subjected to Him.

The first Adam, absent Holy Spirit to control, was incomplete, imperfect'

The Second Adam, Christ Jesus, retained the fullness of deity bodily. All men will be made in His Image.

God was responsible, and He justified Himself through His Son's death.
---Phil on 7/29/12


Wow
Warwick, I never said "flawed."
And since you have downgraded Adam to "very good" as the Bible says, I concur.
Jerry,
I never said "predestined"
francis,
Repeating the same things over and over again does not make it true.
Nana,
You have not responded to the blog and are just here to jab.
I thank God for you.
-Now, Phil would like an answer to the blog.
Was Adam made with complete knowledge as God has?
I believe some may be taking this "image of God" out of its original intent.
Maybe it's just what we think perfect is.
Warwick has referenced before --without flaw--.
So are we refering to "flawless" when we say "perfect"?
---micha9344 on 7/29/12




Micha, that Satan was created perfect, and Adam very good, and in God's very image is Biblical fact. If you wish to believe otherwise, that they were created flawed, you can but Scripture contradicts you.

If Satan was not created perfect then God's word is false. Both chose to disobey God bringing imperfection upon themselves. Sin is a choice, not genetic.
---Warwick on 7/28/12


Jesus was alluding to His Divinity.
---micha9344 on 7/28/12

Alluding hey? So, when he said this:
Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Was he alluding once more?
About dancing, you strike me as rather clumsy.
---Nana on 7/28/12


Micha: You seem to think that we are all predestined to sin, even when the Bible teaches throughout that we sin not. Is that so that you feel more comfortable when YOU CHOOSE to sin? Both Adam and Jesus were tempted to sin by Satan. Adam CHOSE to sin. Jesus DID NOT. But Jesus had no advantage that Adam didn't have, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). Jesus relied on His Father's power, just as we are invited to do. Had Jesus used His divinity to overcome temptation, His sacrifice would have been a hollow victory, but He overcame in the same flesh as you and me!


---jerry6593 on 7/29/12


That's a stretech francis,
---micha9344 on 7/28/12

No micha9344 it is not a stretch, it is the word of God.

Sin is a choice. Adam was created in the image of God, perfect and without sin. Adam like Jesus has a choise to remain obedient to God to sin, Adam choose to sin, Jesus choose to obey.




Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
---francis on 7/28/12


That's a stretech francis,
Deu. the perfection of God c.f Eze. the perfect ways of supposedly Satan?
So why did they choose wrongly?
Was their thought processes corrupted?
Who corrupted them?
Did they corrupt themselves?
How did they corrupt themselves if they were perfect as you say?
How does sin enter in to perfection?
None of us are good Nana, no not one...not even you, no matter how hard you try.
but Jesus was alluding to His Divinity.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Were you going to answer mine Nana or just dance?
---micha9344 on 7/28/12




Nana, I believe Jesus caused the man to consider what he was saying when calling Him "Good teacher." Jesus explained no one but God is good therefore he was calling Jesus God. Knowing wealth was his problem, Jesus said "sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me." But he loved his posessions more than Jesus whom he understood was of God, or God. In the previous chapters of Matthew we see Jesus power openly displayed 9:16 "Never was anything like this seen in Israel." But he loved His posessions more than God and walked sadly away. He knew who he was saying no to but his addiction to great wealth had a stronger hold-good reason for sadness.
---Warwick on 7/28/12


Mark, 'free-will seems to have a different meaning for some. It simply means the right to choose. Adam's sin, for which God rightly judged him was disobedience. He told Adam what he could not do and Adam disobeyed. His choice did not come from imperfection but from free-will. Likewise Satan was created perfect but sinned by choice. These are disastrous things but are not imperfections but choices. It shows when given choices we choose what suits us.

If God programmed Adam to sin righteous God could not judge him and remain righteous. Sin is what we choose to do from our God-given free will. Jesus chose to submit to the Father, even unto death, by His free-will. He was not forced to do what He did. That is what makes it so amazing.
---Warwick on 7/28/12


Just so were perfectly clear on whats really being said here!
Gen_1:31, God clearly says behold, it was very good. Not perfect!

But, some feel the words God choose in Gen_1:31 are misleading!
Because everything God makes or does is perfect!
So it is impossible for God to make something just, very good!
This is what youre saying?

Even thought Christ said in Mat_19:26
With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
You guys are sure that this is impossible for God!
So even Christ is misleading you here!

In closing I want to say.
Although in your hearts, you may want to do right by God.
In changing one word, more damage can be done then Adam ever did!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/28/12


UNDERSTANDING PERFECTION:

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Perfect means to be without sin.

Adam was created without sin, Satan was created without sin thier WAYS/ NATURE/ CHARACTER was perfect.

Perfection of God's creatures included the ability to reason, think and to make choices.

Adam and Satan made a choice to SIN. Once they sinned their nature, ways, charecter was no lonegr perfect, it was marred by sin
---francis on 7/28/12


"If Adam was perfect, Why dud he sin?"

Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Why did he say that?
---Nana on 7/28/12


If Adam was perfect, Why dud he sin?
There is no sin in perfection. so it must have entered in from somewhere if, in fact Adam was perfect to begin with.
Also, why did Adam need a helper if he was perfect?
And, if they were perfect together, why did they sin individually?
I can tell my son "good job" or "very good" or "that was perfect". They do not mean the same.
Too many questions arise when one decides "very good" means "perfect,"
God made it the way he wanted it made.
---micha9344 on 7/28/12


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Warwick, when something is made perfect, does it doesn't fail or break down. Second, You say God gave him free will. Nowhere are we told that, but lets look that closer. If God gave him free will, that he was free to choose what he wanted, why would God find fault in him since it was God who gave him that ability? In fact God told him what not to do and he did it anyway. We know Adam was sinless because he had not sinned yet. But choosing to disobey God, he had to have a desire to do what he did or else he would have never chosen to rebel against God.
We chose what we desire at the moment we choose. Would you choose an ice cream you hate? you choose the one you desire. The only way you choose what you do not desire is if someone forces you.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/12


For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ((For who hath resisted his will?))

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

One must choose what one believes, right?
---TheSeg on 7/27/12


Seg, Adam was made perfect therefore there was no flaw in him when he was made. God told him he could not eat of this one tree, but he did. This was of his choosing, not because of any flaw which God made. If He had been made programmed to sin then he had no free-will and could not be blamed in any way for what he did. As God is perfectly just He could not, and would not condemn Adam if He had indeed programmed him to fail. But God did condemn Adam for what he did, and through him condemned all mankind. Therfore Adam was guilty of a catastrophically wrong choice.
---Warwick on 7/27/12


Phil, I believe your thinking is incorrect. God made Adam perfect, his brain functioning perfectly to a degree we cannot comprehend today. God walked and talked with Adam and comanded that he obey Him by not eating of this one tree. But Adam did eat of it. This was a test of obedience in a creature having free-will. Adam willingly and knowingly disobeyed God. This was his sin.

Jesus, the last Adam, was likewise not programmed to sin but nonetheless could have sinned, but didn't. He chose to do the Father's will, even unto death upon a cross. The first Adam gave into temptation.The last Adam was likewise tempted, and to a far greater degree than the first Adam but was obedient in all things, to the end. I praise God for that!
---Warwick on 7/27/12


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TheSeg on 7/27/12

It is not difficult to see the flaw inherent. Adam, lacked of the knowledge of good and evil necessary in a sentient human being with a self will.

The first Adam, not having God's Holy Spirit unto obedience, was lacking in perfection on purpose. It was the purpose of God to demonstrate the fallacy of self-rule.

The second Adam, flawless in obedience and perfected in righteousness, is the Image of God that Adam and his posterity, us included, that we shall be made perfect in.

Adam was created imperfect, without Holy Spirit. Christ is man perfected, with Holy Spirit indwelling.
---Phil on 7/27/12


Phil
Because we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I want everyone to know I never said Warwick, you are wrong.
As Warwick has show you, all God ways and works, are perfect!
You, yourselves know this is true!

But, just as that is true, so is this:
A perfect work of God cannot fail or sin!
Adam Sinned!

Gen_2:1 God said:
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Joh_4:34 My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
If everything was finished, why did Christ finished it?
Joh_19:30!

It wasn't finished!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/27/12


Is the designer of a machine responsible for its failure?

If I determine to build a house and it collapses in on itself after I built it, would I be responsible?

Did I not know the possible problems ahead of time?

If an all-knowing God created everything, Satan included, and His plan "failed", as it seems, why is He not resposible?

Or is He?
---Phil on 7/27/12


Warwick
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Christ is telling Satan, TheSeg, can live by the truth of the word.
So if very good, does not mean very good!
Then everything is a lie and means nothing.

So, you can stand there with that, Adam was created perfect!
But, remember its not just Adam youre talking about.
Its everything and everybody!
---TheSeg on 7/27/12


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Seg, now you have me totally confused. What makes you think I believe God made a mistake?

All my correspondence with you has been in the light of this thread, regarding Adam's fall. My point is that Adam was not made with any flaw which forced him to sin, but he was made perfect, and with the ability to choose good or evil. Therefore no one but Adam can be blamed, as 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22 say "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive."

As others have commented your writing style makes it hard to understand your point. If you chose to write sentences that would improve things.
---Warwick on 7/27/12


Warwick
I await your explanation regarding your quoting of John, at your leisure.

you said:
You need to read what people have written before commenting.

I said:
And when you finally realize you can't find it. Read this!
1Jn_1:1That which was from the beginning

You haven't realized it yet!
Not trying to be smart just truthful

And yes again:
God is perfect.
And all his ways are perfect
And all his works are perfect

Just makes me wonder why you believe he made a mistake:
I mean, as far as your concern. It could have read:
God is very good and all his works are very good.
Make no difference, it means perfect!

God's, very good, means very good!
And that's, that!
---TheSeg on 7/26/12


Seg, my apologies, I missed that it was a 'g.'

You wrote "Adam was created and God said very good, not perfect! I never said Adam was created, flawed! Just not perfect!" My point is that if Adam was not created perfect He then must, by elimination, have been created with flaws. Not so? We need to remember that it was not a man who said He made Adam "very good" and "in His own image" but God the Rock whose work is perfect, Deuteronomy 32:4.

This tells me that the "very good" of God is no less than perfect, even beyond our limited ability to conceive of such perfection.

I await your explanation regarding your quoting of John, at your leisure.
---Warwick on 7/26/12


Let's try this again,
How does the passage read?
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Or?
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect(...) from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
This is a "huge" difference and I suggest none take away from the Word of God, else be found a liar.
When one understands the difference between the two, then one can see a glimpse of how God sees.
What we call "perfect" is not near what God calls perfect.
Even "good" has a corrupted meaning.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
And yet: Gen 1:31
---micha9344 on 7/26/12


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Warwick, Seq is not my name, it is Seg.
If it's ok with you, I'll talk about 1Jn_1:1 in my own time.

Because, if you dont believe God meant very good, when he said very good.
How can you believe anything, anyone says?

You just ask me.
If someone believes Adam was not made perfect they must believe he was made imperfect, with flaws. Not so?

If you just go down to where I wrote "My answers:"
You will see my answers!
So why ask me again? Because you don't believe them!

Must everyone think like you?
---TheSeg on 7/26/12


Warwick, I would like to answer your question on (1 John 1:1). "That which was from the beginning" is a phrase which refers to the proclamation of the gospel that centers in Christ's person, word, and works as contained in the apostolic testimony. "In the beginning" the phrase here, in the context of (v. 1-4) refers to the beginning of gospel preaching when the readers first heard about Jesus (1 John 2:7,24). The phrase also emphasizes the stability of the gospel message, it's contents do not change but remain the stable from the very beginning, it is not subject to change due to current worldly fads or philosophical thinking. I don't see any connection with Adam but the gospel after Adam sinned.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/12


Seq, thank you for using my name. Now that little courtesy didn't hurt at all did it?

If someone believes Adam was not made perfect they must believe he was made imperfect, with flaws. Not so?

If I have missunderstood what you have written then it of course points to my falibility, but also to the sometimes strange way you write. If you use sentences with full stops and explain your meaning I will find it easier to understand. Communication by the written word alone is fraught with dangers at the best of times but more so when points are not made clearly.

You still have not answered as to what the following means "1Jn_1:1That which was from the beginning Adam never knew he had this. No one did!"
---Warwick on 7/26/12


Disrespectful?

Warwick
When God calles His finished creation "very good" who are we to say it was not perfect?
I think it an arrogance for falible sinful man to denigrate the "very good" of God.
7/20/12

You need to read what people have written before commenting.(But you dont)
7/24/12

But you would have us believe His Creation was created with flaws.(this is not disrespectful?)
7/25/12


TheSeg
I never said Adam was created flawed.
7/23/12 and 7/25/12

My answers:
Adam was created and God said very good, not perfect!
I never said Adam was created, flawed! Just not perfect!
The facts!

1Jn_1:1 is not important!
Because Adam is perfect, right!
---TheSeg on 7/25/12


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Micha, Ezekiel 28:15 tells us he was blameless/perfect in his ways until iniquity (wickedness, unrighteousness, sin) was found in him. How could he be called blameless/perfect if such evil was always there?
---Warwick on 7/25/12


Seq, Deuteronomy 32:4 says "The Rock, his work is perfect, ....." Therefore when God says he made Adam "very good" and in His "own Image" I cannot see that God in fact made him flawed, but perfect. He like Jesus "the last Adam" could have chosen to follow God's will perfectly, but didn't. That is not because He was made flawed but because He chose to sin. If God Made Adam flawed with designed in failure aforethought righteous God could not have judged him for his sin.

You have not explained what "1Jn_1:1That which was from the beginning Adam never knew he had this. No one did!" means.

Why do you refuse to address your comments to each individual? It is disrespectful.
---Warwick on 7/25/12


God says man was made "very good" in God's "own image."
It is up to you to show where Scripture says otherwise.
Warwick on 7/25/12

Why if this is all that youre saying then we agree!
Exactly: Gen_1:26, Gen_1:31
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

He made man in his image, after his likeness.
And after he made man, he called everything very good. (Including man)
And yes, God is the only one, who is perfect!

Then we agree!
And anyone adding or subtracting from this which is written.
Must be a lie, right?
Amen!



I never said Adam was created flawed.
Peace.
TheSeg on 7/23/12
---TheSeg on 7/25/12


2 Samuel 12:8 And I gave thee ...and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
What Adam did not believe was that God could have and would have given him a new mate.
He chose Eve over God.
Perfection at its finest!?
Regarding Eze 28:15, it clearly says "iniquity was found in thee." Doesn't this say that it was already there, just not revealed?
So, the interpretation that this in anyway means he "was" perfect is flawed.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee, for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works...
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Gen 50:20, Isa 45:7, Rom 9:21
---micha9344 on 7/25/12


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Seq, Once again you cannot show me the respect of using my name.

You write "1Jn_1:1That which was from the beginning Adam never knew he had this. No one did!" ???????

God is perfect and all He does is perfect Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, ....." But you would have us believe His Creation was created with flaws. You err because sin is not a created defect but a choice as shown by Ezekiel 28:15. See Matthew 5:48. God did not make man a robot but as a man, without defect, who would worship and obey Him by choice. But Adam sinned.

God says man was made "very good" in God's "own image." It is up to you to show where Scripture says otherwise.
---Warwick on 7/25/12


You must mean something like this.

When God calles His finished creation "very good" who are we to say it was not perfect? I think it an arrogance for falible sinful man to denigrate the "very good" of God.
Warwick on 7/20/12

Show me, where God called anything he made perfect!
Please, stop giving me, I believe, I am confident or this is my interpretation!
Show me it.

And when you finally realize you cant find it. Read this!
1Jn_1:1That which was from the beginning
Adam never knew he had this. No one did!

1Jn_1:2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us,)
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/24/12


Seq, the convention is to address comments to the relevant person. This takes no time and avoids missunderstanding. It would be helpful, and respectful, to do that.

It is also helpful if the writer makes the effort to write in meaningful, easy to comprehend sentences. Please do so.

Thirdly I have twice, or maybe three times explained my reasoning behind my use of "perfect." You need to read what people have written before commenting.
---Warwick on 7/24/12


That which was first made perfect, was destroyed by sin.

I must seem pretty stupid to you at this point.
So why don't you just show me where it says:
"That which was first made perfect"

Or even show: this was created perfect, I made it perfect, it was perfect or anything like that.
I think you get the point!

But you can't, can you?
All you can do is, go on and on about how, you believe it was perfect.
But not because it was said by God!

Sorry Warwick!
But unless you can change these truths.
It's not God, it's you! 1Jn_4:1 !

Ps. And try to understand this too, man can do nothing!
God is the only one who can destroy anything!
---TheSeg on 7/24/12


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Seq, that which was first made perfect, was destroyed by sin. As Barnes says of Revelation 21:5 "The former state of things when sin and death reigned will be changed, and the change consequent on this must extend to everything."

The world was perfect, then destroyed by sin then made anew back to perfection before there was death, disease or suffering. Revelation 25:4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.
---Warwick on 7/24/12


micha9344
But more importantly, lack of faith in God, was where Adam fell.

This is an amazing thing. Most people believe it was his disobedience in eating from the tree.
In the actual breaking of the commandment given by God in Gen 2:16-17!
LORD God commanded the man!

Most people cant or dont see the lack of faith in God was Adam down fell.
The disobedience in believing God is your first love, more importantly they cant rationalize it.
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/24/12


Sorry!
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me,

Write: for these words are true and faithful!

Restoration or new you decide
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/23/12


I want to thank you for putting an end to this.
In saying, I am confident He was made more perfect than we can make anything.
Of that I am also confident.

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Again whether you or your spirit, I want to thank you for saying:
He was made more perfect and not just perfect!

I never said Adam was created flawed.
Peace.
---TheSeg on 7/23/12


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Micha, if you are correct then God said Adam was made very good, (in God's definition of very good) and that at the moment of his creation he was already flawed goods. Already flawed before he sinned!

It has nothing to do with the quantity of his knowledge but whether God made him with either physical, mental, or spiritual flaws. That Adam chose to eat the fruit does not suggest he was not made perfect. He became imperfect when he chose to disobey God, as did Satan. God's word talks of things being restored. Restoration means something being restored to its initial perfection, and glory. What will this restoration be? A return to the "very good" of creation when finished or to the creation under the curse, after the fall?
---Warwick on 7/23/12


Adam was not created with perfect nor complete knowledge.
Not only this lack of knowledge, but more importantly, lack of faith in God,was where Adam fell.
How can this be perfection?
Through our lack of certain knowledge, we have faith and hope in the One Who knows all.
Is it God's fault then?
Certainly not!!
For the Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
---micha9344 on 7/23/12


Seq, the jumbled way you write sometimes obscures your meaning. Maybe English is not your first language. I do understand the difficulties of writing in a foreign language.

You wrote "how you can take what God has called very good and change it." As Adam was made "very good", and "in God's image" I am confident He was made more perfect than we can make anything, because we are imperfect, at best, while God is perfect. I cannot see how I have changed anything.

Today, because of Adam's sin man is disabled physically, mentally and spiritually. But man was not created that way.

I am saying what God made perfect (Adam) chose to sin by the free-will God gave Him. This is Adam's fault, not God's.
---Warwick on 7/23/12


Warwick, God said in Gen 1:1:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In Gen 1:31 God said, behold, it was very good.
Now is heaven part of everything he had made?
Yes, it is isnt it? And God called it very good.
Please explain, to me how you can take what God has called very good and change it.

Stand there and tell me you havent. Because you feel this is what God is saying.
And yet, God himself is telling you. No Warwick, I said very good!

Remember Satan was created perfect but sinned.
Being perfect in your walk with God, is not saying God created you perfect!
Your saying something God created perfect, failed.
Dont, you see that?
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/22/12


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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Holding that thought:
So then let me ask you.
Can you be perfect (or unblemished) in all your ways and still not be perfect in Gods ways.
If so then even if God were to say, you are perfect in all your ways!
Is still not saying you are perfect in mine.

For:
My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
---TheSeg on 7/23/12


The fact is according to (not my word) but the word of God.
Gen_1:31And God saw (everything that he had made,) and, behold, it was very good.
This start at: Gen_1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And ends with everything that God had made! And Behold, it was very good!

Since you guys have free-will. You can change anything you want.
Anyone who changes what God has written in the Bible! Is a liar!
So dont lie to yourselves. You are changing the word of God!
So when you teach that God created man perfect.

Dont forget to say "I am a liar."
Because I have changed the word, "good to perfect"
But only because, "I believe man is perfect!"
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/22/12


If Adam was created perfect, who is held reponsible for causing Adam's "fall"?

---Phil on 7/19/12

ADAM
---francis on 7/22/12


Adam was perfect, his situation was not perfect UNTIL God made it perfect by creating Eve

BUt remember God created THEM in Hisd own inage so they were perfect being in the image of God

If you look at the statement that God made about lucifer, lucifer was perfect until SIN was found in him
So too was Adam and Eve perfect until SIN was found in them

Adam was responsible for his fall and no one else
---francis on 7/22/12


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Mark, you attempt to redefine 'perfect' beyond its proper meaning.

God made man "very good" and "in His own image" but you imagine man was made with physical, mental or physical flaws, or maybe all three.

I cannot imagine Adam's need of a mate caught God by surprize. Otherwise what does Genesis 1:28 mean-"And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth...."

Remember Satan was created perfect but sinned. "you were blameless (.e.'without defect, blameless, perfect) in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you."
---Warwick on 7/22/12


Phil, Adam was made perfect, without physical, mental or spiritual flaw. However he had the ability to choose what he did. He chose to follow his wife, not God with universal negative consequences. Scripture holds Adam responsible, as the choice was his. We still suffer under the dire consquences of Adam's choice. "For the wages of sin is death...." Romans 6:23. 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive."
---Warwick on 7/22/12


Warwick, I hate to drag this one out but only God is perfect. No one else was, is, or will be. What God created was perfect in that thats how He wanted to create it. If man was perfect he wouldn't have needed a helper, for God said it was not good for him to be alone. If he was perfect he it wouldn't matter if he was alone. Another thing, if Adam was perfect he would not have eaten of the tree. If something is perfect it cannot fail. God saw His creation as very good (1:31). He view it as being to that point the perfect outcome to His creative plan. However, in observing man's state as not good, He was commenting on his incompleteness before the end of the six day, because the woman, Adam's counterpart had not yet been created.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/12


Still waiting for a focused response to this topic.
Got some major league players here, so wha'sup?

And why this constant Ezekiel thing? It's irrelevent and has everyone gummed up. The Adversary loves this junk. Especially since Ezek 28 isn't about him, and wallowing in religious fables keeps him in the spotlight. Man is he slick!

Now, about the topic?
---Phil on 7/22/12


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Thou was perfect in thy ways" the word "ways" is (Darekh) does not refer to his nature been perfect but that he walked right, always doing what was right. His ways were perfect. Not his nature.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/12

I will give you 6 days to see the error in that post, and if you do not see it, on the 7th day I will show you
---francis on 7/21/12


Mark, regarding Ezekiel 28:15 'blameless or 'perfect' (different translations) is 'tamiym' meaning 'without defect, blameless, perfect.' Surely you do not believe God so described Satan's creation but actually created him imperfect, physically, mentally, or spiritually? Scripture show Satan and Adam were created perfect (God's works are perfect), but able to obey or disobey God. Both chose to disobey.

Genesis 3 shows Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby "knowing good and evil" which means he was not created with this knowledge or the compulsion to sin, but chose to do so.

You believe because he sinned he was created imperfect. Not so.

Why would God create man imperfect?
---Warwick on 7/21/12


francis, you make a big mistake in your interpretation. In the passage in (Ezek. 28:15) does not say satan was created perfect. Not at all. What it does say,"Thou was perfect in thy ways" the word "ways" is (Darekh) does not refer to his nature been perfect but that he walked right, always doing what was right. His ways were perfect. Not his nature.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/12


Warwick, satan was not created perfect, his ways were perfect. If he was created perfect he would have never sinned. There was something in him that made him sin. If he was perfect there would have not been anything to make him sin. So yes, he was perfect in his ways, in what he did until he sinned, then, he was not perfect in his ways.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/12


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Seq, I specifically said I am suspicious about your motives in the case of Adam's perfection. This does not mean I am suspicious of you per se, but of your motives in this specific case.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make about my Ezekiel quote.

Whay do you quote Eze_28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created." Doest thou speaketh and writeth this way? Why do you quote in what today is incomprehensible 'English' for many?
---Warwick on 7/20/12


You are suspicious of me, well good! Not that Im a spirit, but you are told to be, amen.
Im not suspicious of anyone, but thats me.
I really just like hearing things the way they are written. So there no room for, confusion!

For instance, take what you just said:
Ezekiel 28:15 Satan was created "perfect" in all his ways.
(I created you perfect in all your ways)

Now lets look at whats written:
Eze_28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created.
(You were perfect in your ways, from the time I created you)
You keep doing that, why?

You are free to choose the way you look at me!
I dont have that luxury, God bless you
---TheSeg on 7/20/12


Seq, I am suspicious as to why you fight so hard to have Adam created imperfect. As we see from Ezekiel 28:15 Satan was created "perfect" in all his ways. But Satan was not also made in God's very image, but Adam was made in God's image, in whom there is no imperfection. See 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30.

When God calles His finished creation "very good" who are we to say it was not perfect? I think it an arrogance for falible sinful man to denigrate the "very good" of God.
---Warwick on 7/20/12


Mark, Adam was a creature, not God, made by perfect God in His own image. As I told Seq Satan was created "perfect" but Adam more so being, unlike Satan, made in God's "image." I think you redifine perfect which when used in Ezekiel 28:15 is 'tamiym' meaning "without defect, blameless, perfect."

God's word tells us God Himself called His finished creation 'meod' 'exceedingly' good. But man who was not there and knows nothing says God's exceedingly God had imperfections! Consider knowledge: Do we even comprehend how much there is to know in all of God's creation? No. Therefore not even knowing how much there is to know, we know nothing.
---Warwick on 7/20/12


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Adam was not created perfect. Only God is perfect. Only God is automomus. Man is not. Not even Adam are satan.
---Mark_V. on 7/20/12

WRONG AGAIN
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast PERFECT in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

Adam being in the image of a perfect God could be no less than perfect
---francis on 7/20/12


Again Warwick
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good!
Not perfect, God saw that it was good, are you going to call this perfect too?
I like the way you say, I give it to God, that his good is better then are perfect.
You didnt actually say it like this, but I give it to you, this is what you mean!
May God bless you, as if he didnt already!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/20/12


Seq, Romans 8:22 refers to the world, under the curse because of Adam's sin, not to the world as created.
---Warwick on 7/20/12


Adam was not created perfect. Only God is perfect. Only God is automomus. Man is not. Not even Adam are satan. To be perfect a person has to be a law unto themselves. And man was never created to be automomus, a law unto themselves. When man was created he was under the authority of God. God is supreme authority of heaven and earth and everything in it. God is supreme power and all other authority and power are under God. If God is not sovereign, He is not God.
---Mark_V. on 7/20/12


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Ezekiel_28:15 is this really saying (thou wast created perfect!)
Or is this saying Thou wast perfect in thy (ways!)
from the day that thou wast created?

Or isn't there a difference between what God calls perfect and what man believe is perfect?
I know you can feel your hearts are telling you, this is so!

God never said you were created perfect!
But, that you can walk perfectly until you sin!

Now please ask yourselves am I changing the word.
Or Im I just reading them as given?
You are the only one who can decide that!

This does not say you are created perfect!
But that you were perfect in your ways!
From the day you were created.
May God bless and keep you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/20/12


Micha, I don't think created perfect/in the image of God, and sin are mutually exclusive. As Ezekiel 28:15 shows Satan was created perfect but sinned.

Like us Adam was given the free-will to follow God's commands or do what his wife said. He chose the wife. That is what then made him imperfect and why we are all born sinful. He had the advantage over us that he was placed in a perfect world where there was no death, disease or sin. Then he chose to sin bringing the whole increasing mess of the curse upon the world, and all in it. We are born into a sin ruined world and it would be amazing if we could rise above this. But our sin is still a choice.

Praise God that He says the wages of sin is death, then He came to pay the wages.
---Warwick on 7/19/12


Nothing! Not anything or anyone was made perfect.
Your own hearts should be telling you, anything God make perfect, will be called perfect!
That which is made perfect by God cannot become imperfect or corrupted, as written!
For God said this is perfect!
He didnt say perfect!

Most for you think this is only about man. Read carefully!
This is about the whole of creation everything God has made.

Rom_8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Means, until Christ!

Christ even told you, but you dont hear it.
Joh_3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Ask him why!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/19/12


\\Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Adam was in god's image PERFECT until he sinned.\\

But this verse is NOT talking about Adam, francis.

Please try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/19/12


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Gen5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God(SINLESS) made he him,== perfect

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness(SINFUL),.== Imperfect
We are born in the likeness of Adam=sinful
---michael_e on 7/19/12


If Adam was perfect, why did he sin?
Was not his thought processes out of alignment with God's wishes?
Still taking verses out of context to make your ideas right instead of bringing every thought captive to the Word, I see.
---micha9344 on 7/19/12


Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Adam was in god's image PERFECT until he sinned.

No one but Adam is responsible for Adam's sin

No one but Lucifer is responsible for Lucifer's sin
---francis on 7/19/12


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