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Where Do Infants Go

What does the Bible say about the fate of infants?

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 ---Phil on 7/19/12
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Phil, you said,

"I do not debate issues based upon false premises. If the Word of Life cannot find entrance into the soul and mind of a man, I certainly will not be able to."

That's what your doing, debating issues base upon false premises. The Word of God does find entrance into the soul of man, when God wants it to. Nothing stops God from saving anyone. Saving them from what? Hell, sheol, hades or the lake of fire.
You were doing so good brother, what happened? Maybe those who go to the Great White Throne of Judgement, who trample the Lord's name, and rebell against a Holy God, go to a "Hidden" place in the Bahammas. Or maybe there is no Great White Throne of Judgment, what do you think?
---Mark_V. on 8/2/12


Mark_V. on 8/1/12
Gordon on 8/1/12

A protracted study of the Greek words hades and aion is the only solution to the dark clouds of creedalism that prevent the light of God from illuminating even the most sincere lover of God's word.

I do not debate issues based upon false premises. If the Word of Life cannot find entrance into the soul and mind of a man, I certainly will not be able to.
---Phil on 8/1/12


Phil, Do you see? You clearly do not understand. There are only TWO OPTIONS. Throughout Eternity, there will only be Heaven on the New Earth, or, there is the Eternal Lake of Fire (including the inhabitants of Hell--REVELATION 20:14). There is NO OTHER PLACE TO DWELL for Eternity, Phil. YOU say that (all) babies will not go to Heaven at Death. Then, where do they go? Where will they dwell for Eternity? Or, (don't tell me that) you believe that false doctrine of "Annihilation"? For, all souls will live throughout Eternity.
---Gordon on 8/1/12


Phil, "What?" are you saying? No hell. My goodness, why would anyone need Jesus Christ if there is no damnation? So when Jesus spoke of hell, He was lying? In Scripture Jesus speaks more of hell, then anyone in all Scripture. What religion do you belong to brother? I am shocked. You believe in election of God, why have an election at all if there is no hell? Wow. Why have His Son crucified if there was no need for it? Now I know that hell has different words all through history, but what are you teaching? Every believer through history has been lied to? First no fallen satan, now no hell. "What?"
---Mark_V. on 8/1/12


You gave no Scripture that proves that infants go to Hell when they die.
Gordon on 7/31/12

I have said that innocents do not go to heaven when they die. But that is a far cry from saying what you imply.

As for "seeing" the alternative, I am sorry. I do not believe in fables and heresies such as "hell and damnation".

I know my God.

No sin is worthy of endless trillions of year in torment.

No so-called god who would torment billions He created endlessly is worthy of anyone's worship or adoration.

I am glad the Scripture prove the opposite and such a place as "hell" does not exist except in the translations.
---Phil on 8/1/12




Mark E, I agree with you on the passages you gave concerning the condition of mankind born of Adam. God has given us a systematic way, how a person is saved and that is through Christ, whether a person believes in the election of God or not, they have to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not much information is given on infants since they know not Christ. If they are going to be save, it has to be through election of God, and mercy of God to infants who will never know Christ. And since God is just and always righteous, He will not ever be unrighteous. If we conclude that infants go in because they never knew Christ, then we would have to conclude that all people who never knew Christ also go in, and that's not biblical. But I am with you.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12


Micha9344, sorry to be so late getting back with you.
The land of the enemy spoken of in Jer 31:16 has reference to our last enemy which is death (1 Cor 15:26). Their bodies were in the grave, but I believe their spirits and souls were with the Lord. Now if you do not believe this, then my guess is you believe in the heresy of soul sleeping or the heresy of Purgatory. If not, please tell me what you do believe and please back it up with scripture.
---trey on 7/31/12


DITTO GORDON!
---Leon on 7/30/12

Not sure about that ditto.

I reads this verse to say that ALL men (mankind) are condemned, and that NONE are innocent, including children.

Rom 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men"
---Mark_Eaton on 7/31/12


Phil, Everything regarding Life and Death ultimately leads back to the Truth of GOD. You gave no Scripture that proves that infants go to Hell when they die. You gave none. And, if infants do not go to Heaven at death, then, Hell is the only alternative. So, where is the Scripture that infants perish in Hell at Death? Please show Scriptures that specifically state that "infants" go to Hell at Death. If you can't, then, the Damnation of infants is bypassing GOD's Grace for those little ones. And, it would be stating that GOD shows even less Mercy than the murderous Abortion doctors. And, you can't see that?
---Gordon on 7/31/12


Gordon on 7/30/12
"Phil, Off topic? No, it all ties in. Explain to me what was going on at YAHUSHUA's Baptism in MATTHEW 3."

No less than eight questions, all concerning the deity of Christ, none related to the topic of the fate of infants.

I await evidence. Should I be asked to provide such, I would assume the hearer desired light, and earnestly provide what God has made known on an issue.

The differences and similarities between the
Father and Son could be the subject of another topic, should you decide to initiate it.

Feel free. I have evidences from scripture to address that topic.
---Phil on 7/30/12




\\Explain to me what was going on at YAHUSHUA's Baptism in MATTHEW 3.\\

Read the Orthodox Services for Theophany (6 Jan) and all your questions are explained.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/30/12


Phil, Off topic? No, it all ties in. Explain to me what was going on at YAHUSHUA's Baptism in MATTHEW 3. Will you explain it? Who was in the water being Baptized? Who came down from Heaven as a Dove? And, Who's Voice exclaimed from Heaven that this is my beloved Son? Who is the "Word" in JOHN 1:1? Who is the "Word made Flesh" in JOHN 1:14? Who said that He was "I Am" in JOHN 8? And, what does I JOHN 5:7 say? YAHUSHUA is God the Son and no man can change that.
---Gordon on 7/30/12


"...All babies go straight to Heaven when they die. That is done by GOD's... Grace [Is. 55:9]. Each individual human being is held accountable for acting on the in-born sin nature when they begin to understand right from wrong. That more than likely differs with each person, and that would be no problem for GOD for HE even knows the very number of hairs on every single human being's head. And, ALL human beings were made in the Image of GOD, not just Adam and Eve."
---Gordon on 7/26/12


DITTO GORDON!
---Leon on 7/30/12


James, when God created man, He created one man, not mankind. He was the only man around. He didn't create an infant but a man. Eve was no where in sight. God then said it was not good for man to be alone,
"And the Lord God said, it is not good that man should be alone" (Gen. 2:18) implying he was the only one around. Again, man was not an infant. (Gen. 1:21)
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam and out of his rib made a woman, and now he had company. So when God created man, he create one individual, not mankind. If he created mankind at that time, we would not be having mankind today being born. Of course all mankind came through Adam and Eve, that was the plan. But they were not created in Genesis.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/12


Micha9344, Adam and Eve were only a part of GOD's Image. The child(ren) that were to come from Adam and Eve had completed the full Image from which GOD had created mankind. The design of the complete human family was already formed in GOD's Mind before HE actually created it. The Idea was in HIS Mind, but, the actual creation of the human family, that was patterned after the perfect Image of GOD, was formed over a period of time. Adam was formed, Eve was then created from a rib of Adam and then the children were created by the natural birth process. When the first human family was formed, THAT was what was made in GOD's Image.
---Gordon on 7/29/12


\\"Let us make man in Our Image," He was not saying, "Let us make an infant in our image"......He was not talking about mankind either since Eve was not made out of the rib of Adam yet.\\
---Mark_V. on 7/28/12


It may seem a little late for the comment, but God was indeed talking about mankind. Read the first few chapters of Genesis, and you will see that when it mentions Adam, he is "The Man". Eve is "The Woman", and when together (or mankind in general) they are "Man"

That's why Gen 1:27 says God made "Man", and then "Male And Female He Created THEM"
---James_L on 7/29/12


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Is there a "Bible Verse" to "prove" that? NO, not just "one Verse" that I, personally, know of.
Gordon on 7/29/12

This is all off-topic, not about the fate of infants, no doubt because God is seeking to reveal Himself, which is very good.

I commend your honesty, that there are no verses, only assumptions based upon limited understanding and human reasoning.

Hence the need of God's word, to temper our zeal and correct our errors.

The Writings mention no "triune" anything. You are honest to see and declare the truth, that there are no verses to support your concepts.

May the Lord bless you with greater light.
---Phil on 7/29/12


["Male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."
THEIR name...
Children are part of the same creation, Adam.]-Nana on 7/28/12
[...Even before she even had her first child.]-Nana on 7/28/12
...their name Adam, "in the day when they were created"..."before" she even had her first child...
-not part of the same creation.
Thanks for proving my point, Nana
God Bless you.
---micha9344 on 7/29/12


James L. Bless you! :-D You have Scripturally backed up the Truth! PHIL, Almighty GOD already had in mind before Creation began about how HE was going to create both Adam and Eve and the human family! Is there a "Bible Verse" to "prove" that? NO, not just "one Verse" that I, personally, know of. But, it's knowing GOD and how HE is, AND what several Bible references point out about how GOD is and how HE works, is what shows us these things. Who creates something without having the concept of the created thing in their mind FIRST? First GOD THINKS of a thing, then HE speaks the Word to create it. You got some Bible Verses to kick this off, Phil, now, how about receiving them them.
---Gordon on 7/29/12


\\"The Image that GOD created mankind by, is HIS Image of the Holy Trinity. GOD's perfect plan and Image for mankind is the "human family".\\
---Gordon on 7/28/12


I await the scriptures God\\
---Phil on 7/28/12


In Genesis:
THE man = Adam
THE woman = Eve
MAN = mankind

When God said "Let us make man in Our image", it wasn't individual "men", but mankind. What He meant:

Gen 1:26 Let Us make man[kind]

Gen 1:27 So God made "man"[kind]...male and female He created THEM

Gen 1:28 God said to them "Be fruitful and multiply"


The image of God isn't individual people, it is a hierarchial family structure.
---James_L on 7/28/12


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"...Children are part of the same creation, Adam."
Highly doubtful.
---micha9344 on 7/28/12

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
How did you come into this world by multiplication or did you come by addition?
That bearing children was so weaved into their being that God declared,
Genesis 3:16 "...Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children..."
Even before she even had her first child.
---Nana on 7/28/12


Gordon, in the context of (Gen. 1:26) only one man was created that we are told. Adam. No infant or child does the Bible say. We do know that mankind came from Adam and Eve, but not in the context of the passage. Yes, they are the parents of everyone through history, but not at the moment of creation. That was the point that Craig said was rediculous.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/12


"The Image that GOD created mankind by, is HIS Image of the Holy Trinity. GOD's perfect plan and Image for mankind is the "human family". The human family is: father, mother and child(ren). Made in the Image of Father, Holy Spirit and Son."
---Gordon on 7/28/12

I await the scriptures Gordon, that support this statement. I suspect there will be none forthcoming... I had to ask...
---Phil on 7/28/12


Nana, That is correct. The Image that GOD created mankind by, is HIS Image of the Holy Trinity. GOD's perfect plan and Image for mankind is the "human family". The human family is: father, mother and child(ren). Made in the Image of Father, Holy Spirit and Son.
---Gordon on 7/28/12


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...Children are part of the same creation, Adam.
---Nana on 7/28/12
Highly doubtful
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth:
---micha9344 on 7/28/12


Craig, if you think using your mind, instead of speaking with your mouth what is in your heart, you would know that the answer was not rediculous --- MarkV

If Jesus Christ gives you a new heart and takes away your stoney one, wouldn't it be wiser to listen to your heart (since that is where Christ resides), rather than the voices in your head?

Maybe you have gone astray because you have hardened the one part of yourself that God speaks to you through. Don't fool yourself into believing that a highly intelligent Christian is closer to God than a Christian who listens to his heart.
---CraigA on 7/28/12


"Male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."
THEIR name...
Children are part of the same creation, Adam.
---Nana on 7/28/12


Mark V, But, when GOD created Adam, HE was not done creating mankind as HE had planned. Adam was not the complete Image of GOD, in and of himself. The creation of Eve adds more to that Image from which GOD created mankind. A clue is when GOD said that "a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall CLEAVE UNTO HIS WIFE: and they shall be ONE FLESH." For, it's that unification of man and woman that helps reflect the Image of GOD, Who is Three-in-ONE. The three Persons of the Trinity relate to each Other in continual, perfect harmony. The human family is meant to do the same, as in GOD's Image. GOD had Eve all planned out BEFORE HE created Adam.
---Gordon on 7/28/12


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Craig, if you think using your mind, instead of speaking with your mouth what is in your heart, you would know that the answer was not rediculous, for the Holy Spirit speaks to our conscience and you would know that when God said
"Let us make man in Our Image," He was not saying, "Let us make an infant in our image" since Scripture does not say that God made an infant and took care of him until he grew up. He also did not say child, but a man. He was not talking about mankind either since Eve was not made out of the rib of Adam yet. All you have to do is think, instead of looking for fault. You could be useful to others if you were seeking the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/12


Linda, only God knows who He chose from the foundation of the world. No one knows who they are. But once a person is saved, he should know he is one of the elect. Only after a person is saved does he realize through the teachings of Scripture and the Spirit, that his one of the elect. Because only those with the Spirit of Christ will know.
"Knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in Word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess. 1:4). The beloved are bro/sis in Christ. The Church is commonly called "the elect" (Rom. 8:33: Col. 3:12: 2 Tim. 2:10: Titus 1:1).
---Mark_V. on 7/28/12


Who are the elect. How do you distinguish them from the nonelect?
---Smitty on 7/27/12
Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
-What is this fruit? I'm glad you asked.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Now go picking fruit and stay away from the "bad apples."
---micha9344 on 7/28/12


Who are the elect. How do you distinguish them from the nonelect?
---Smitty on 7/27/12


I eagerly await the answer to that question, since many here are judged as elect ONLY if they believe in a specific doctrine and not by their faith in Jesus Christ.

Sounds very cultish to me.
---LindaH on 7/27/12


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"Let Us "make man" in Our image, according to Our likeness," (Gen. 1:26).
"God did not say, "let Us make a child, or a baby. And also He was not referring to mankind, because if He was referring to all mankind, all mankind would have been created then and there at that time"---MarkV

This is an example of how ridiculous logic can lead to bad doctrine.
---CraigA on 7/27/12


Who are the elect. How do you distinguish them from the nonelect?
---Smitty on 7/27/12


Mark_V.* To the non-elect, the Bible is a sealed book: and only to the true Christian is it "given" to see and understand these things.

Why then do the true christian can not agree among each others using the bible given to them?

Mark_V.* Jesus Himself declared that one of the reasons why He spoke in parables was that the Truth might be concealed from those for whom it was not intended.

No Mark Jesus is quoting Isiaih 43 it goes on and says "Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, It is true.You are my witnesses, declares the Lord,and my servant whom I have chosen,so that you may know and believe me" v 10
---Ruben on 7/27/12


Ruben, It's not my doctrine, but God's. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? He says,
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine" (Matt. 7:6). He who affirms that Christ designed to give His saving truth to every one flatly contradicts Christ Himself. To the non-elect, the Bible is a sealed book: and only to the true Christian is it "given" to see and understand these things. Jesus Himself declared that one of the reasons why He spoke in parables was that the Truth might be concealed from those for whom it was not intended.
"Therefore speak I unto them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
---Mark_V. on 7/27/12


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Phil, I have no cause.
---Smitty on 7/27/12


Cluny, Tell me in the Scriptures where it says that babies DON'T go to Heaven when they die. Show me where in the Scriptures that babies go to Hell when they die. For, if babies don't go to Heaven, then, they go to Hell. As for "man" in the O.T., it does not ALWAYS mean "male". GENESIS 1:27 says "So GOD created man in HIS own Image, in the Image of GOD created HE him, MALE AND FEMALE created He them." Adam and Eve both were created iin GOD's Image.
---Gordon on 7/27/12


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend..and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1C 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

It is blatant error to teach there is no resurrection for everyone that ever died in Adam. Infants do not "go to heaven".

There can be no salvation apart from resurrection out from among the dead ones.

His glory is the power to resurrect. It will not be abrogated by myths.
---Phil on 7/27/12


If all deceased infants go to heaven direct, infanticide should be universally practiced.
---Smitty on 7/26/12

I am not wanting to firm up your cause, nevertheless, I must admit your conclusion is the logical result of belief in religious fables.
---Phil on 7/27/12


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//Yours are strictly of human invention...In any case, "sola scriptura" is YOUR rule (not mine or the Bible's), but you seem to think it very unfair when you are forced to play by it.//

funny, as much time as you spend on this site and as long as i have been posting, you still think i believe in sola scriptura.

throughout the bible, it talks of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The first sentence of the bible is calls it Elohim. Godliness, Deity, Kingdom. i don't know which view of the holy trinity to which you adhere...Trinity of Persons or tri-personality. i don't understand why we have ever said persons or like persons. the bible says that God is spirit. God came incarnate as a person for approximately 30 years.
---aka on 7/27/12


If all deceased infants go to heaven direct, infanticide should be universally practiced.
---Smitty on 7/26/12


Concering infants, all descendants of Adam are born in sin. Separated from God, and need to be born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/12

But if only the elect are chosen according to your doctrine, do they wait for God to gave them the Spirit?
---Ruben on 7/26/12


\\Mark V., All babies go straight to Heaven when they die.\\

Please tell me where the Bible says this.

**"Let Us "make man" in Our image, according to Our likeness,"**

Many times, especially in the OT, "man" is used to refer to a male child.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/26/12


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Mark V., All babies go straight to Heaven when they die. That is done by GOD's own Grace. Each individual human being is held accountable for acting on the in-born sin nature when they begin to understand right from wrong. That more than likely differs with each person, and that would be no problem for GOD for HE even knows the very number of hairs on every single human being's head. And, ALL human beings were made in the Image of GOD, not just Adam and Eve.
---Gordon on 7/26/12


Gordon, I do agree with you when you said that Adam was created a man. And have no clue why Cluny would object other then he is oppose to "Sola Scriptura." Because God's word says,
"Let Us "make man" in Our image, according to Our likeness," (Gen. 1:26).
God did not say, "let Us make a child, or a baby. And also He was not referring to mankind, because if He was referring to all mankind, all mankind would have been created then and there at that time, but as we know only "one man was, Adam." Mankind came through Adam.
Scripture speaks for itself.
Concering infants, all descendants of Adam are born in sin. Separated from God, and need to be born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/12


"Gordon is the one who said that Adam was created as a full-grown adult."
And you are the one who tried to cast doubt that he was.
Gen 1:26-28 must not be in your partical truth bible. Or, could it be these were super babies capable of having children of their own and subduing the Lions, Tigers and great Elephants.
Now in your comic books I can see Jimmie Olsen believing that about his pal Clark.
---Elder on 7/25/12


\\who are NOT OF THE AGE NOR CAPABILITY to make choices between right and wrong. Since they are too young to have knowledge between right and wrong, they are, as well, too young to commit outright sin.\\
---Gordon on 7/25/12

Gordon, I give a hearty AMEN !!


Paul spoke of a time when he died (Romans 7). either he was writing from the grave, or he is speaking of when died spiritually.

Romans 1 details some of how it happens - when MEN (not babies) suppress the truth, sxchange the truth, honor God no longer, become fools, etc

Romans 5 also says that sin is not imputd where there is no Law (as in the case of babies)
---James_L on 7/25/12


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\\"Where does the Bible say that Adam was created as an adult?"
Wow, just when I thought it couldn't get any......
Well, where does the Bible say he wasn't? \\

Gordon is the one who said that Adam was created as a full-grown adult. Therefore it's up to him to prove his point from the Bible, as he (and possibly you) play by the rule of "sola scriptura."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/25/12


I'm pretty sure everyone will perish eventually, whether or not they are Christian. There is no hard evidence anyone who's died hasn't perished.
---Smitty on 7/25/12


I am glad everyone got to participate in this Theology 101 discussion.

While I believe Romans is clear, that ALL have sinned and without Jesus will perish, the dilemma of infant children is difficult.

I offered the 1 Cor 7:14 passage as an exception to Romans for the people who want one, yet I myself do not believe it to be so.

I also do not believe 2 Sam 12:23 to be saying that Davids child was in heaven. I believe the verse to read that David will follow his son in death, but his son will not return to David in life.

For me as an answer, I choose to not know and find out when I get there.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/25/12


"Where does the Bible say that Adam was created as an adult?"
Wow, just when I thought it couldn't get any......
Well, where does the Bible say he wasn't?
If Adam was created an infant then God created the first "Cougar" relationship too.
The Bible teaches that He created a woman for Adam. I guess that was to change his diapers 'cause that is "Womans work" huh?
Get real and stop blowing smoke to try to confuse people.
---Elder on 7/25/12


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\\He was created directly, full-grown, out of the dust of the earth.\\

Where does the Bible say that Adam was created as an adult?

**It is often said that those who are not born of water (natural birth), cannot enter heaven**


"Born of water" means water baptism, not natural birth.

If it did, this would exclude those born by C section.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/25/12


Glen, Adam was the exception to the rule. He was created directly, full-grown, out of the dust of the earth. Whereas, every other human being (except Eve, too) are born from the mother's womb, from conception. Babies receive a soul at conception. That's how GOD works it. That's why Abortion is really murder.
---Gordon on 7/25/12


This is a difficult subject, which brings up a few questions

It is often said that those who are not born of water (natural birth), cannot enter heaven

So does that mean unborn children cannot go to heaven?

If so where do they go? hell, or do they cease to exist?

Do they even have the breath of life at conception?

When did Adam receive the breath of life, before or after his body was formed?

As for me it's all a mystery
---glen on 7/25/12


Cluny, "In sin did my mother conceive me" means that in the mother's state of sinfulness did she get pregnant for her son David. It's not a statement about David's own sinfulness. And, even it it were, GOD's Grace and Mercy allows the going to Heaven at death for all infants, who are NOT OF THE AGE NOR CAPABILITY to make choices between right and wrong. Since they are too young to have knowledge between right and wrong, they are, as well, too young to commit outright sin.
---Gordon on 7/25/12


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(1 Cor. 7:14) does not refer to salvation, otherwise the spouse would not be spoken of as unbelieving. The sanctification is matrimonial and familial, not personal or spiritual, and means that the unsave partner is set apart for temporal blessings because the other belongs to God. One Christian in a marriage brings grace that spills over on the spouse-even possibly leading them to salvation. Christian need not separate from an unbeliever because of fear that the unbelieving spouse may defile the children. God promises the opposite. They would be unclean if both parents were unsaved, but the presence of one believing spouse exposes the children to blessings and brings protection. and offen brings salvation.
---Mark_V. on 7/24/12


\\//...traditions and precepts of men.// funny...you are the one who claims truth from traditions passed down forefathers not only the bible.
---aka on 7/22/12\\

Our traditions and precepts come from Christ and the Apostles.

Yours are strictly of human invention.

In any case, "sola scriptura" is YOUR rule (not mine or the Bible's), but you seem to think it very unfair when you are forced to play by it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/24/12


\\All infants go directly to Heaven in the Presence of GOD at death. When the first baby between king David and Bathsheba died, David, in grief, said, the boy (baby) cannot come back to me, but, I shall go to hi\\

You're projecting.

David ALSO said, "For behold, I was born in wickedness, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/24/12


Mark_Eaton on 7/24/12

There is nothing in that passage (1 Cor 7:14) pertaining to the fate of infants who die.

So far, no one has provided scriptures to resolve this question. Only inference and conjecture has been supplied, such as "All infants go directly to Heaven in the Presence of GOD at death".
That is not found in the Bible.

Unbelievers want truth about this. Holy Spirit only works through the truth.
---Phil on 7/24/12


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All infants go directly to Heaven in the Presence of GOD at death. When the first baby between king David and Bathsheba died, David, in grief, said, the boy (baby) cannot come back to me, but, I shall go to him. Meaning: David knew that one day he himself would be in Heaven and there he would reunite with his infant which is in Heaven. And, it's OLDER CHILDREN that are "unclean" before the LORD, not little infants (aborted, newborns, etc.)
---Gordon on 7/24/12


\\1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/24/12\\

If the children of Christians are clean and holy, then there is no reason not to baptize them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/24/12


I was curious what others thought of the fate of these infants who had no knowledge of the Gospel.
---Phil on 7/20/12

I will tell you what others have been afraid to say.

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Who are guilty of these verses? How many are excluded from these verses?

The exception for children:

1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/24/12


\\so, now, you need an exact phrase? where does it say Trinity?\\

The Bible teaches the Trinity, but nowhere does it teach that "spiritual baptism" is "consciousness towards God."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/23/12


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//As long as you don't argue with the Bible// cluny

the bible says to stone my child if he is disobedient. i think i will hold off on that because of the bible in totality.

//And NOWHERE does the Bible define baptism as "consciousness towards God." In fact, the Bible doesn't even use that phrase,//

so, now, you need an exact phrase? where does it say Trinity? BCV as you put it. convenient logic, you use one rule to support you and the same rule to tear others down. "appeal to God for a good conscience" is a "consciousness towards God."

//...traditions and precepts of men.// funny...you are the one who claims truth from traditions passed down forefathers not only the bible.
---aka on 7/22/12


\\Cluny, i am not going to go round an d round with you again. if you read the full verses around that, it is drawing a parallel between water baptism and spiritual baptism (consciousness towards God). water can only wash the flesh.
---aka on 7/20/12\\

As long as you don't argue with the Bible.

And NOWHERE does the Bible define baptism as "consciousness towards God." In fact, the Bible doesn't even use that phrase, you are just spouting traditions and precepts of men.

As regards the fate of infants who die, as I said in another context, only God Himself can and will sort this out with justice and mercy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/22/12


Jer 31:16 and 2Sa 12:23 cannot be reconicled together under trey's current presuppositions and conclusions.
Jer 31:16 states: "...and they shall come again from the land of the enemy."
2Sa 12:23 states: "...I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
Unless the "land of the enemy" is "Heaven", trey may want to rethink what he has been taught.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
Acts 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
It is "death" that both of these verses speak of.
---micha9344 on 7/21/12


The scriptures never speak of infants dieing and going to hell, but I can give you two instances where children died and we are assured of their salvation:

#1 Jeramiah 31:16 (The prophet prophesise of the death of the children by the hand of Herod the King / Matt 2:18 (This is the fullfillment of Jeramiah's prophecy.) Note that the Lord assures the mothers of Israel that their children will return from the land of the enemy referring to the resurrection.

#2 2nd Samuel 12:23 David states that his dead son cannot come back again, but he will go to him. David knew heaven was his home and where his son had gone.
---trey on 7/20/12


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Cluny, i am not going to go round an d round with you again. if you read the full verses around that, it is drawing a parallel between water baptism and spiritual baptism (consciousness towards God). water can only wash the flesh.
---aka on 7/20/12


\\phil, i was raised catholic. water baptism does not save anyone at any age.\\

The Bible disagrees with you in several places.

"Baptism doth now save us," as one of the letters of St. Peter puts it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/12


phil, i was raised catholic. water baptism does not save anyone at any age. God will let the little ones know at some point.
---aka on 7/20/12


Cluny,

It is the practice of some sects to baptize infants, in the belief that they will enter into eternal life through that rite, having no knowledge of salvation on their own.

It is the teaching of most sects that by not "accepting Christ", your fate is sealed, and you deserve eternal death.

I was curious what others thought of the fate of these infants who had no knowledge of the Gospel.
---Phil on 7/20/12


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The bible says very little about children. Jesus spoke about children in many passages. But he always said, 'as if' or 'as like children'
---John on 7/20/12


infants usually grow to be toddlers. but, you will not find that in the bible.
---aka on 7/19/12


Can you be more precise?

Do you mean those who die in infancy? If so, please say.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/19/12


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