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Is The Devil A Liar

The Lord said the devil "was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him." (John 8:44). If God created him a man-slayer and a liar "from the beginning", how can Ezekiel 28 be true?

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King Nebuchazezzar/aka lucifer is the direct subject of Isaiah 14. Not some angel.
The King's sin is just part of the Bible.
So the REAL lucifer's sin(the one Isaiah prophecied about and Daniel wrote about the fulfillment of the prophecy) does not have anything to do with causing the entire Bible to make sense.
BUT IF ADAM DOESN'T SIN... then the entire Bible makes no sense.
Human responsibility sees through the error of blaming an angel for what a man caused.
Man is by far the most diabolical slanderer of all.
---Legends on 10/1/12


Legends, you said:
"Inserting SATAN into this text is done by tradition, NOT Ezekiel.
Re-read. Find the word satan. Can't be done. WHY? The word isn't there.
CHERUB IS!"

It is not done by tradition, it is done by looking at other passages to know that the Anointed Cherub in that passage is the Devil, the serpent, the Adversary, prince of darkness, angel of light, a lion. Nevertheless we know who is been mentioned without the name been in the passage. It has everything to do with Biblical interpretation. God created him knowing he would become a liar at some point in time. The whole book of God, the Bible would be meaningless if Lucifur had not sinned.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/12


/Jerusalem was not a donkey, Jeremiah was describing both, AS IF Jerusalem was LIKE a donkey/MarkV
I agree!

/Same holds true for the king of Tyre, AS IF he was LIKE Satan./ MarkV
Partially agree!

Inserting SATAN into this text is done by tradition, NOT Ezekiel.
Re-read. Find the word satan. Can't be done. WHY? The word isn't there.
CHERUB IS!
Why? Because The king of Tyre was being LIKENED to a cherub AS YOU AGREED ABOVE.
But tradition insists THROUGH THIS ONE VERSE, this likened angel is satan, SUDDENLY identified as a cherub.
Word Study: No scripture EVER calls Satan a cherub UNLESS this one verse does.
The interpretive error finds weight in the appearance of the word EDEN. cont.
---Legends on 9/18/12


Pt2
The word Eden in Ez28 has nothing to do with a sinning angel in Eden.
REASON 1: Ez 27:23 lists a merchant city of Tyre's named EDEN. This HUMAN king had most likely BEEN IN EDEN.
Issue: Was this Eden, in Ez27, the Garden of God? Not sure!

A BETTER REASON 2: JUST AS God was comparing Jerusalem to a donkey although the people had no donkey tails. And JUST AS God compared the king of Tyre to a cherub ALTHOUGH he had no physical wings... God compared the RICH, PORT, TRADE CITY of Tyre to the Garden of Eden. ALTHOUGH Tyre was not the Garden of Eden.
Gen3:24 Cherubim Guarded the Garden. Cherubim also guarded the Ark of the Presence. The king's role, LIKE CHERUBS, is ANOINTED GUARDIAN. He failed! So did ADAM! Angels did not!
---Legends on 9/18/12


Legends, thanks for giving (Jer. 2:23). Of course Jerusalem was not a donkey, Jeremiah was describing both, as if Jerusalem was like a donkey. The same holds true for the king of Tyre, as if he was like Satan. And gives the description of Satan compared to the acts of the King and his description.
Yet what he said about Satan is true. What he said of the king was also true. They were both alike. But not in all phases since the king was not in Eden and didn't have wings, as Lucifur did since he was an angel, the anointed Cherub. The king was the antitype and Satan was the type.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/12




"thou art a swift DROMEDARY(CAMEL) traversing her ways" Jeremiah 2:23 KJV
In the same way the King of Tyre wasn't a cherub with wings BUT YET was called a cherub...
Jerusalem was called a dromedary and WAS NOT A CAMEL with hooves and humps.
Mark, your blog implies that I'm the one calling the King of Tyre, ANOINTED CHERUB or IN EDEN. It's Ezekiel who says it by inspiration of Our LORD Himself.
Like Isaiah ILLUSTRATIVELY uses the word dromedary, to describe the actions of Jerusalem, likewise Ezekiel illustratively describes the role of Tyre, COVERING ANGEL.
He also describes the abundant wealth and provisions of Tyre, EDEN.
The previous chapters lead up to Ezekiel 28. Have a look, starting at Ezekiel 26!
---Legends on 9/13/12


Legends, you said,

" God's protective covering is what the government of Tyre(king) was suppose to have provided in Ezekiel 28.
"You were the anointed cherub that covereth."


The king of Tyre did not have wings. He was not the anointed Cherub. He was a human being. He was not in Eden, Satan was. Satan was in his exalted privilege an angel guarding (covering) God's throne, as cherubim guarded Eden (Gen. 3:24). "I establishe you" this was true of both Satan, by God's sovereign permission and Tyre's king. "perfect in your ways" This verse was not compeltely true of the king, but it was accurated of Satan before he sinned "Till iniquity was found in you"
---Mark_V. on 9/13/12


Mark,
I did a deeper research on cherubs. Found it interesting. I see why you say that(in the Bible) cherubs can only be angels.
My contention about winged creatures(birds) being cherub comes from Ezekiel where he saw them having four faces. One being an eagle face. Eagle, lion, or human faced, these still were angels. Wierd looking angels but still NOT birds.
Nevertheless, my contention remains. The wings on the cherubs over the holy of holies covering wings that function according to the understanding the Jews had about bird wings. Wings provide protective covering. God's protective covering is what the government of Tyre(king) was suppose to have provided in Ezekiel 28.
"You were the anointed cherub that covereth."
---Legends on 9/10/12


Adam was not mentioned one time in Ez.28. LUCIFUR and the king of Tyre were. ANY attempt to change those passages is to distort the truth.MarkV

-Seeing that ANY attempt to change Ez28 distorts truth. Clearly note, the word lucifur/lucifer isn't found ANYWHERE in Ezekiel.
-Concerning Adam: Tradition repeatedly suggests that a double meaning in Ez28 allows for the HUMAN king of Tyre to be the subject AND in a double meaning, the subject spoken to is also a former angel who was in Eden with Adam disguised as a serpent.
Your lucifer/satan/serpent isn't mentioned in Ez28 either.
-Birds are CHERUBS. Angels too.
I-F there is ANY double meaning in Ez28, Adam is it.
There's a double meaning. BOTH HUMAN! Get the first on right!
---Legends on 9/9/12


Since abortion is really murder of the unborn, can we not say that since Adventism permits abortion, that they are really servants of the great liar, the devil?

then it must be that because Catholic religion doesnt permit abortion they really want more children born for their pedofile priests to molest? few topics here that certain people cannot help themselves but to add completely unrelated adventist-propoganda about this adventist group (whoever they are) and becoming more childish with responses. It's getting boring to have every topic tainted with this hate from the same people who have nothing intelligent to add to topics. adventist-hating-agenda is growing more bitter and it demonstrates they are not Christians.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/8/12




Since abortion is really murder of the unborn, can we not say that since Adventism permits abortion, that they are really servants of the great liar, the devil?

For those that are ignorant of the Adventist position on abortion, suggest you google "Abortion Adventism". It will list several sites that are informative.
---elee7537 on 9/8/12


Cherubims are angels all the time. They are not birds, birds are of a different nature. Cherubims have two wings. Seraphim's are also angels of a different order in rank, who have six wings. They are not birds. Two Cherubims are on the top of the Ark of the Covenant.
Adam was not mentioned one time in (Ez.28) Lucifur and the king od Tyre were. Not one word is mention of Adam or Eve. Only Eden is mention. Any attempt to change those passages is to distort the truth.
According to the Bible there is three kinds of spirit creatures, regular angels, Cherubims angels, Seraphims angels, and a Archangel which is only one, "chief angel."
---Mark_V. on 9/8/12


Patricia is correct the devil, or (Satan, the father of lies, god of this world, the serpent etc) was once Lucifer. His name was changed to destroyer (satan) when he fell from his glory as the annointed cherub Lucifer. When Satan was created as the annointted cherub he lived in Gods truth, when he coveted Gods throne he destroyed himself and deceived 1/3 of the angels to follow him and his ways envy etc. John 8:44 describes beginning (mankind) not the beginning of the angels existence. Once Lucifer started living against God and his truth he became the murder of mankind. The deception taught by Satan through his ministers of evil is new-age Christianity you can live a life of lasciviousness and still receive salvation.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/7/12


What Jesus meant in John 8:44 that the devil had truth at one time but he fell.---Patricia on 8/27/12

Let me assist you by citing this passage.

Jn 8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Thank you for clarifying what Jesus meant to say.

Tell me, what other things do you believe He said, but did not mean?
---Phil on 9/7/12


Pt3 The Covering Guard

The word CHERUB is NOT exclusive to angels. WINGED creatures of ALL kinds are CHERUBS including winged birds and angels.
Through birds, Jewish people understood God's message in the Ark of the Covenant. Birds PROTECT their flock by displaying a COVERING GUARD with their WINGS. So when the Ark of the Covenant had cherubim COVERING it with their WINGS, the Hebrew people knew from natural birds that God was sending them a message saying IN WHAT MANNER He protects them. Which is through His KINGDOM government which was INSIDE THE VESSEL.
Perfect Inside, protection outside.
Iniquity inside, NO OUTER PROTECTION from THE BIRD-LIKE WINGS OF GOD.
Thou wast perfect until iniquity was found IN THEE!
---Legends on 9/7/12


Pt 2
What scripture backing do you have that God ESTABLISHED satan(SET him IN his RIGHTFUL GOVERNMENTAL PLACE AND ORDER). Other than traditional reading of this verse in Ezekiel, there's nothing that says satan was established(set in proper governmental place and order).
But BY SIMPLY READING WHAT'S WRITTEN, we know the King of Tyrus was established by God just as ALL authorities are set in proper place and order by God. Romans13:1
-Adam was the first human authority established or in other words, SET IN PLACE by God.
-Adam was in Eden.
-Adam was perfect until iniquity was found in him.
Gen2:15 Adam was put in Eden to dress it and KEEP IT(PUT UP A COVERING GUARD AGAINST ALL ENEMIES)
---Legends on 9/7/12


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"Perfect in your ways" This verse was not COMPLETELY TRUE of the king./MarkV

The above is a perfect example of the blinding problems of ERRONEOUS TRADITION. Because YOUR tradition doesn't fit the ACTUAL scripture, YOU have the gall to say, what Ezekiel states about the king isn't COMPLETELY TRUE.
Open your eyes! You're saying this: Ezekiel stated something about Tyrus' king that was PARTIALLY A LIE.
That's pride in it's purest form when you call a prophet a liar. Mind you that you also call God a liar at the same time.
Instead of doing so, maybe you should say, "LORD, is there something I'm not seeing because of MY traditional teaching. You/your prophets don't partially lie and always tell COMPLETE TRUTH."
---Legends on 9/7/12


The big lie is not believing there is an angelic angel name Lucifur. That is the biggest lie. And to think that (Ez. 28) is talking about Adam covering Eve as a chicken, is even worse. Cherubim's are angels. Lucifur was an exhalted annointed Cherub guarding God Throne. As Cherubims guarded Eden (Gen. 3:24).
"I established you" This was true of both Satan, by God's sovereign permission, and Tyre's king.
"Perfect in your ways" This verse was not completely true of the king, but it was accurate of Satan before he sinned. "Till iniquity was found in you" Satan's sin of pride (Isa. 14:14: 1 Tim. 3:6) is in view here.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/12


The most common LIE most Christians are believing: Ezekiel28 refers to a former angel.
The truth being resisted, PERSONAL HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY for mankind's fall ABSENT any existence of an angelic rebellion.
Isaiah14 says lucifer but DOES NOT contain the word ANGEL.
Ezekiel28 teaches their HUMAN political leader WAS the anointed cherub(CHERUB/creature with covering wings like a mother hen or BIRD). Tradition takes that to mean an angel not a human. A LIE!

BTW, in a double-meaning, THOU WAST IN EDEN fits a HUMAN named Adam WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY it was to COVER Eve with the hen-like wings he was given as God's authority.
Governmental authorities' are anointed and set to function as cherubs.
Elect the BEST BIRD!
---Legends on 9/6/12


Read: Ezekiel 28:13-19
This refers to the devil who was once called Lucifer who was anointed by God but the day came that iniquity was found in his heart. These verses are speaking of what happened in the past and what will happen in the future. What Jesus meant in John 8:44 that the devil had truth at one time but he fell. Jesus was saying to these Jews and anyone who resists the truth that they are believing a lie.
---Patricia on 8/27/12


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Legends, your remarks offend me concerning what I said about the Jews. What do I need to ask a Jew that the Bible doesn't provide for me already? Their beliefs are not Christian, why should I ask them anything? We know enough about Jews from Scripture. And most of those who live in Israel are not Jews at all. There is Jewish people in the flesh and Jewish people in the Spirit. Someone called a Jew because he is a physical descendant of Abraham and yet who lives as a lawbreaker is not a Jew, his circumcism has become uncircumcision, to God he is a Gentile. And a believing Gentile who through faith keeps the righteous requirments of the Law, his uncircumcision is counted as circumcision, To God he is a Jew. Read (Romans 2:17,25-26,28-29).
---Mark_V. on 8/23/12


/They don't believe in Jesus why should I ask one of them of anything?/ -MarkV
WOW! So don't ask a Jewish person anything about ANYTHING???
That's pride! High and lofty. Exalted to heaven(the sky). That pride will be brought down like lightning falls from heaven.(the sky).
You won't ask a Jew about their Feasts. You won't ask a Jew about King David, Moses or Abraham. You won't ask a Jew about Israel and Jerusalem. You won't ask a Jew about word meanings spoken in Hebrew, their own language. The Torah scrolls, passover nor THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?
If you won't listen to anything the people who God gave the oracles to, you won't hear God when He uses a Jewish person to tell you something VERY IMPORTANT. Consider your ways my brother!
---Legends on 8/23/12


Legends, I was not holding my breath, if I had I would have died. Then you tell me to ask a Jew, are you kidding me? They don't believe in Jesus why should I ask one of them of anything? I told you it is ok for you to believe there is no angel by the name of Lucifur, or satan. That is ok. And it is ok to say he never fell from heaven but from a cloud. That is ok also. I don't think anyone is going to stone you are go looking for you. Discussions on the word of God are good. Lots of study can be done looking for the right context of passages. Studying the Word of God never hurt anyone. Many times it has saved people. Only the Truth saves.
---Mark_V. on 8/18/12


Mark, Don't hold your breath waiting for me to prove with scripture that:
1) A singular being that was formerly an angel fell from heaven(the sky, clouds or even outer space).
2) A singular being, formerly an angel, fell from Heaven(God's invisible throne).
Neither one happened.
Luke 10 isn't about a singular adversary falling from an invisible Heaven.
READ ACCORDING TO CONTEXT AND NOT TRADITION.
Luke10 is about adversarial CITIES that contained devils. CITIES the 70 lambs went into to preach and prepare the hearts of people BEFORE Jesus Himself came to that CITY.
DEVIL: A Jewish term that often refers to MEAN, HOSTILE, PRIDEFUL HUMANS.
---Legends on 8/18/12


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cont.
Hear the scripture. Read Luke10.
"But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that CITY.
And thou, Capernaum, which art EXALTED TO HEAVEN, shalt be thrust down to hell. He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me, and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
The seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, EVEN THE DEVILS are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
All of this is about prideful humans in CITIES. IT'S ABOUT EXALTION AND HUMILITY. NOT A FORMER ANGEL.
"thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" Luke10:21
---Legends on 8/18/12


When Jesus/Jews speak the word Satan, He/They NEVER mean a former angel. NEVER!
ASK A JEW IF YOU DOUBT. That's a foreign concept to Jewish people. Satan means ADVERSARY. In this paricular context, satan referred to prideful, hostile CITIES(city leaders) that fell because the gospel was preached according to the prescribed instructions Jesus gave the 70 in Luke10.
One particular SATAN was the CITY called CAPERNAUM.
Capernaum doesn't literally fall from the sky, outerspace or Heaven. But the human devils of Capernaum were brought DOWN, UNDER SUBJECTION to the 70.
Jesus AS PROPHET said UPLIFTED Capernaum would fall in Luke 10:15. 3 verses later it's confirmed that adversarial Capernaum fell.
SATAN! Not a former angel. THE CITY!
---Legends on 8/18/12


Legends, ok, show me one passage where we are told that Satan comes and goes from the clouds? You should be able to find one. I will wait, peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/12


By them shall the fowls of the HEAVEN have their habitation, which sing among the branches. Psalm 104:12

And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the HEAVEN, and for the beasts of the earth. Jeremiah 7:33

Fowls of heaven in these 2 examples (and many more since you asked for less scripture) CLEARLY means NATURAL BIRDS singing in NATURAL BRANCHES, eating NATURAL bodies of NATURAL people alongside NATURAL BEASTS of the NATURAL EARTH.
Why infer that the fowls of heaven would have the remotest chance of meaning SPIRITUAL HEAVEN and not THE NATURAL SKY that NATURAL BIRDS fly in.
Mark, Heaven often means THE SKY. First get that correct, then you may start to understand what Jesus was conveying.
---Legends on 8/15/12


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Legends, the word heaven always means heaven. Heaven can be used as a symbol, metaphor, parable or an allegory. That is why I ask you to give a one passage at a time so that I could look at the context. Since they are interpreted differently. But no matter what heaven means heaven. There is a second and third heaven but heaven is still heaven. If satan fell from the clouds and the clouds are in heaven, then you contradict other passages. That is what I wanted you to see. When Jesus saw him fall like lightning, he was falling from heaven. We are never told he is in the clouds going and coming from the clouds.
---Mark_V. on 8/14/12


Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven?Job 35:11

The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven. Psalm 79:2

By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.Psalm 104:12

And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. Jeremiah 7:33

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. Revelation 19:17

Heaven: 1)Invisible Throne 2) Sky where birds and MarkV fly. 3) Space
---Leonard on 8/10/12


Mark, I'm suggesting one thing to you in this blog.
My suggestions are clearly backed by
A) The scriptures I gave using various trusted translations.
B) Ask a trusted teacher if you don't trust sources.
C)Webster's
D)Google search
E) Wesley's Notes confirm my contention.

WHAT I'M SUGGESTING:
-YOU SAY when we see the word heaven it can only means one place, God's Invisible Throne.
-I SAY, depending on the context, heaven can mean
1)God's invisible Throne
AND
2) The sky you flew in.
When Jesus spoke of lightning from heaven, He clearly meant the sky!
Love you bro'! But I feel you have rejected "the writers" and common knowlege by holding to your limited definition on the word heaven.
---Legends on 8/10/12


Legends, you did a lot of work looking up those translation but never once told me what those passages had anything to do with the passage of Jesus. What is your point? You must have one. Give me each passage and I will read the context and that way I can answer you with Scripture. I have a few translations here on hand. If you are concluding that the clouds are in heaven then I have been to heaven many times when I fly, and many times above the clouds and have come back down from heaven and have spoken of God. That contradicts the passage in (John 3:13). Only Jesus has gone to heaven and came back down to teach of God. Be careful what you suggest.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/12


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MarkV, you are wrestling against established truth with no good reason other than to hold on to a tradition. Sky and heaven are synonyms. Not simply my opinion. Do your research. Google! Or check out the translators(who you have previosly called THE WRITERS of the Bible.
Since you will not receive me, Here are a few of those "writers".
God called the expanse "sky." New Living Translation (2007)
God called the space "sky." English Standard Version (2001)
And God called the expanse Heaven. New American Standard Bible (1995)
God called the expanse heaven. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God called the firmament Heaven. GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
---Legends on 8/9/12


Legends, now you say,

" Lightning falls from heaven, the visible sky NOT Heaven the invisible realm."

When have you heard lightning falling from heaven? I have not. Lightning come from the clouds. Lightning can be either inside clouds (IC), cloud to cloud (CC) or cloud to ground (CG). Heaven will always remain heaven and there is no clouds in heaven. Yes, there has always been those who want something so bad, they will argue for it no matter what. But heaven does not change to mean clouds. At least I have not found that in Scripture. So what Jesus saw was, satan fall (like) lightning from heaven. Satan hit the ground so fast just like lightning. That is how fast he came down from heaven.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/12


Interpretation problem: Mentally latching the words FROM HEAVEN directly behind "satan fall".
It's NOT, "I saw satan fall from heaven... like lightning".
FROM HEAVEN is directly linked BEHIND the word LIGHTNING. Lightning falls from heaven, the visible sky NOT Heaven the invisible realm.
Lightning from heaven.
Lightning comes from heaven.
Lightning comes from THE NATURAL heaven.
Electric POWER from cloud to ground. High to Low! Exalted to humbled.
Luke 10 CONTEXT: High-minded religious POWERS in Caperneum/cities exalted their opinions as high as the sky. Through truth preaching, the 70 lambs QUICKLY GROUNDED the ADVERSARIES(wolves). They brought them under subjection.
Electricity needs grounding!
---Legends on 8/8/12


Phil, That word "beginning" in JOHN 8:44 is not referring to the "beginning" of Lucifer's existence. GOD is referring to the "beginning" or that point in time when Lucifer first rebelled by being arrogant and from boasting of becoming like the Most High GOD. This caused him to be kicked out of Heaven. In other words, he lost his permanent dwelling place in Heaven. Later, he became the "father of lies".
---Gordon on 8/8/12


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The only things that's unchanged here is your interpretation of the word heaven.
This is simple.
Either Jesus meant:
A) heaven THE VISIBLE SKY ABOVE EARTH.
B) Heaven THE INVISIBLE THRONE.
C) BOTH.
I strongly contend that context confirms "A".
Here's why! When Jesus said, "L-I-K-E lightning from heaven, nobody I know has ever said, "Jesus meant invisible, spiritual lightning." No, they know He meant visible natural lightning.
But mix in traditional thought about fallen angels and we think visible lightning falls from THE invisible Heaven. That's horrible logic and really bad biblical interpretation.
---Legends on 8/8/12


Legends, you gave me context, and nowhere in that context does it change the meaning of (Luke 10:18). not one idoa. The meaning remains the same. After that fall, it means that they are not in heaven, but on earth, and Jesus says, "Behold, I give you authority to trample on serpents and scorpions" (Ps.91:13: Ezek. 2:6:) These appeared to be figurative terms for demonic powers (Rom. 16:20). "Do not rejoice" Rather than being so enthralled with extraordinary manifestation such as power over demons and the ability to work miracles, they should have realized that the greatest wonder of all is the reality of salvation, the whole point of the gospel message.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/12


"And you, Capernaum, who are EXALTED TO HEAVEN, WILL BE BROUGHT DOWN to Hades. He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.
THEN the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, EVEN THE DEMONS are S-U-B-J-E-C-T to us in Your name.
And He said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:15-18
I give you context and exact quotes. You respond with out-of-context misquotes and silly reasonings not backed by scripture.
Who's twisting and who's untwisting? To the unknowing, it all looks the same! Stay with context.
Jesus was commenting on what had just happened with the 70!
SUBJECT: brought DOWN and UNDER authority.
---Legends on 8/7/12


Legends, you can twist this around if you want but it doesn't change what the passage is saying. Lets say that Jesus saw satan fall, You believe that so far, and it was not from heaven, So from where did He see him fall like lightning? While he was standing? lets apply that"

"I saw satan fall down while standing, like lightning from heaven." That not a very long fall to call it, like lightning. Now lets add a building, could that be like lightning from heaven? Ok, lets say He saw satan fall from a cloud, then it would be like lightning from the clouds, but it could not be heaven. Which clouds? raining clouds?
---Mark_V. on 8/7/12


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You guys might consider how fast lightning fall!
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Yes he did fall, yes it was from heaven and it didnt take him along time before he did.
As we all!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/7/12


Legends, Satan was a bright and beautiful Heavenly angel. When he fell from Heaven, his angelic brightness made it appear as a streak of lightning flashing down from the Sky above. And, Satan's fall was QUICK, like a flash of lightning.
---Gordon on 8/7/12


Mark, You seem to think that Jesus said that He saw satan fall from Heaven in this verse. Your posts keep misquoting Jesus. He did not say that.
He said, he saw satan fall. Never said(AS YOU KEEP MISQUOTING)... fall from heaven.
He said lightning falls from heaven. Not satan from Heaven.
You've seen lightning. I've seen it. The 70 people He was speaking to had seen it.
The context you insist on ignoring is, satan fell where and when the 70 went to preach. The fall of the adversary of the 70 was compared to lightning falling from heaven. See Capernaum!
You're arguing that heaven always means one thing. It makes your reliability less credible the more you hold on to something just about everyone knows NOT to be true.
---Legends on 8/7/12


Legends, you can apply heaven to many passages, waters from heaven, satan falling from heaven, the heavenly stars, but heaven does not change from beeng heaven. If satan fell from heaven, does not mean he fell from a cloud, or a star, or from a tall building, but from heaven, the heavenly realm. I'm ok if you want to change heaven to be a cloud if you want. But Jesus said heaven. And that He witnessed his fall. And it was like a lightning. Pretty simple to me.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/12


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//But heaven means heaven, no matter what interpretation anyone gives.// -MarkV
Not so my friend. Heaven in many passages means the stars and the sky.
"And God called the firmament Heaven" Gen1:8

"I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven." Gen6:17
"on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"Gen7:11
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan AS lightning fall FROM heaven." Luke10:18
All of these references are about the natural heaven.



---Legends on 8/6/12


Legends, the word heaven in (Luke 10:15) is also found in (Matt. 11:23). "Woe to you, Chorazin, and Bethsaida" both were cities very close to Capernaum. "More tolerable" This indicates that there will be degrees of punishment in hell for the ungoldy (Mark 6:11: luke 12:47,48: Heb. 10:29). "Capernaum exalted and brought down" Capernaum was chosen by Jesus to be His headquarters and face an even greater condemnation. Whatever they did it was worse than Sodoms gross wickedness (10:15). The passage is referring to, being exalted to heaven, not that he went to heaven. The prophecy about the destruction of Tyre and Sidon is found in (Eze. 26-28).
---Mark_V. on 8/6/12


Mark, you didn't read Luke10:18 very carefully nor my response.
My point isn't just about Jesus' referance to lightning as you claim I said. My point is, Jesus illustratively described the fall of the adversary with something everyone of the 70 disciples had seen. Namely, NATURAL LIGHTNING COMING DOWN FROM THE NATURAL HEAVEN. You know better than to think there is only one heaven mentioned biblically.
My reference to Tyre wasn't from Ezekiel but the same chapter in Luke about 5 verses earlier where you find this reference to heaven.
"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell." Luke10:15
---Legends on 8/5/12


Legends 2: Then you say,

"Note that Jesus did not say, "Before I created everything, that's when I saw Satan fall like lightning falls from heaven."

Why should He have to say that? We know He did see him fall from heaven, because we know that before Eve was deceived by the serpent, he had already fallen. If you had read Gen. 3, you would know that.
Then you give the passages for the prince of Tyre, (Eze. 28:1-10) these verses refer primarly to the prince of Tyre, then reigning, Ittiobalus by name. (Eze. 28:11-19) is speaking of Satan for no mere man, like the prince of Tyre could be in the Garden of Eden. Cont.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/12


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Legends, you are were arguing Jesus did not mean heaven. Just because He said "Like lightning." Like lightning could be very fast, could be very bright, could be zig zag. But it nevertheless means from heaven. He did not say, "Like from heaven." You want to deny satan's fall, it is ok. As I said before you can believe what you want. But heaven means heaven, no matter what interpretation anyone gives. Jesus words will not change no matter who reads the passages.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/12


"And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" ( Luke 10:18).
MarkV, please don't mix my argument with someone elses as if they are the same.
You say that Jesus said that He saw Satan fall from heaven. READ AGAIN.
Jesus actually said He saw Satan fall L-I-K-E lightning falls from heaven(THE NATURAL SKY).
Be more aware in your disagreements with me that you don't unknowingly contradict Jesus Himself. A simple re-read should clear this up. But traditional thought will blind one to something as bright as lightning from heaven(THE SKY).
---Legends on 8/4/12


Pt2
"And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" ( Luke 10:18).
Note that Jesus did not say, "Before I created everything, that's when I saw Satan fall like lightning falls from heaven."
Jesus' statement is responding to the 70 disciples' saying, "even the devils were subject to us!"
The timeframe of this instance of "the adversary" falling is at the subjugation of the devils when the 70 went out and do what Jesus told them to do. WHICH WAS... preach, heal the sick, CAST OUT DEMONS!
Also note the contextual woes to Tyre and Sidon. although exalted to heaven(not invisible one here either) they were to be thrust to the grave!
Like lightning from heaven?
---Legends on 8/4/12


Phil, you say you would expect more from me, but can you get more from me when you first have to believe? Remember Mulder? The Truth is out there, and you have to believe first. Jahweh is One, the Holy God, yet Savior and the Spirit who works in and through mankind. Jesus Christ is identified with Yahweh, He is One and Holy, the Savior of the world who by His Spirit comes to live in mankind and to give them salvation. The Holy Spirit is identified with Yahweh, He is One and Holy, the agent in salvation, and the Spirit of God who indwells people and saves and sanctifies them.
one satan, many angels, demonic angels and holy angels, a heaven, and the lake of fire. If you get with the program you can have more.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/12


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Phil, I believe your interpretation of words has got you so mixed up. Here is what I hear...You didn't say what denomination you belong to.Mark_V. on 8/4/12

2Pt 3:16 (Paul, the apostle to the Nations) speaking in them of these things (the mysteries revealed to him alone) in which are some things hard to be understood (the joint and equal gentile and jew Body for instance),which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You are right, it is what you are hearing.

Because the majority believe it (Catholicism) makes it right?

I would expect more from you. You are a wise man.

I belong to no sect. I have been redeemed and freed.
---Phil on 8/4/12


phil, people ask for scripture but will not acknowledge it when you do. i do not know why what you are saying is so difficult.

I agree. God has no name that we know.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns, and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

We call Him the Word of God, but that does not mean that we know the name.

(btw-the argument over Jesus, yeshua, yesheshua, iesus, joshua, .... cracks me up.)
---aka on 8/4/12


Phil, I believe your interpretation of words has got you so mixed up. Here is what I hear, there is no heaven, no hell, no angel name satan, there is two Gods, yet one had a big fall, that Gentiles will be slaves to the Israel because they will rule in heaven but there is no heaven, that every written word in Scripture is interpreted wrong, and millions upon millions of people have been fooled, because they read the passages wrong, except you. Legends says Jesus was not speaking of heaven, in the passage which tells us He saw satan's fall from heaven. He must have just fell from a cloud. I hate to ask another questions. But I want to thank you for answering. You didn't say what denomination you belong to.
---Mark_V. on 8/4/12


The bible is a coded book. Ezekiel 28 is written for both Satan and his part as King of Tyre and the human King of Tyre to be revealed at the end of time as the man of sin

Ezekiel 28:12-17 Lucifer the covering archangel later who became the adversary prior to Adam

the human King of Tyre is described in Ezekiel 28:2 the prophecy of the man of sin or the son of perdition the end-time man who will claim to be God the same prophecy described in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

Rev 13:13-18

~humble follower of the Rock and lover of The Eternals truth (KJV) Matt 16:18, Corin 10:4, 2 Thess 2:10 1 Pet 2:21
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/3/12


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Now you say satan is not an angel but Deity. If he is deity he is God.
Mark_V. on 8/3/12

2C 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

Theos tou aionos

God of the eon.

I ask not that you believe me, I ask you discard creeds and believe God.

We must believe God without reserve. Creeds and myths prevent this. Satan's fall is a myth created out of men's imagination.

Theos is not a name for God. He has no name.
---Phil on 8/3/12


Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

But now, O LORD, thou art our father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom_9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hard to accept isn't it!
Rom_1:22!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/3/12


Phil, I am shocked again. I am afraid to ask you any more questions. Now you say satan is not an angel but Deity. If he is deity he is God. And how did God fall from heaven if he is God? And were there two God's in heaven at one time? Who can condemn God?
The Lord says,
"I am the Lord, there is no other, There is no God beside Me. I will gird you, though you have not know Me" (Isaiah 45:5).
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do?" (Isa. 44:6).
---Mark_V. on 8/3/12


"..please provide scripture" Mark_V. on 8/1/12

Scripture describes the Adversary as deity, not an angel 2C 4:4.

His position is a chief, a ruler over principalities and dominions Eph 6:12.

He is above "angels" in authority and power Jude 1:8-9. (G2962 kurios KJV: God, Lord, master, Sir.)

The word angel is a mistranslation of the Greek word G32 aggelos, a messenger.

In Mt 11:10, Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27, John the Baptist is titled an aggelos. If aggelos means angel, then John was one of them.

Angel is not an insprired translation. It is a man-made word used for aggelos. It it incorrect and should be discarded.
---Phil on 8/2/12


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This passage says has no direct reference about the invisible place we say we know to be HEAVEN.
Jesus was speaking about a natural occurence, namely Cloud-To-Gound Lightning. In this passage, lightning was natural lightning and heaven was the natural "SKY" that lightning came from. That sky was called HEAVEN just like God's invisible throne is also called Heaven.
In this passage, the word Satan(enemy/adversary) refers directly to the HUMAN WOLVES that the 70(lambs) were sent out among. Wolves are the ADVERSARIES of lambs. Thus the term satan.
The love of the 70 preaching in the authority of Jesus brought the high-minded wolves to a low humble place.
Like lightning from heaven... that's how the adversary fell!
---Legends on 8/2/12


Phil, lets look at your question, We know that angels are angelic spiritual beings right? Now lets check what Jesus Christ said,

"And He said to them, (unless He was lying) "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" ( Luke 10:18).
Ok, we know that serpents do not fall from heaven, neither do human beings. So what we have here is an angel, unless you know of other kinds who are in heaven falling down from heaven, please provide scripture. I gave you the Words of Jesus. In the context, Jesus was saying to them, not to be suprised that the demons are subject to them. Jesus had given them authority over them.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/12


Holy Moley Mark_v!

I was just considering our Father's mind when He formed Satan, whom the Bible calls the serpent, Beelzebub, slanderer, adversary, devil, and the god of this age.

I am in full agreement with you on his usefulness to God in revealing Himself.

Just as the anguish He must have felt at His Son's murder, so to His emotions must have ran high when forming Satan as His tool for evil. What father cares to use chastening when a simple request for obedience is sufficient in a relationship.

In fairness, I must ask you to provide the passage where it says "Satan is a fallen angel.". It is not in the Bible. It is a fable.
---Phil on 8/1/12


Brother Phil, I like your answers alot but not all of them. here you say,

"I would not have liked forming a being that opposed my every move, even knowing it was necessary"

Your ways are not His ways. We don't have the foreknowledge that God has. God knew satan would sin, and still created him. If God didn't know, then He is not God. And you know that already. Look, if you don't want to belief satan is a fallen angel but a "crooked serpent" that is ok with me. But it is not biblical. Do you know that without satan's sin, we would not know the mercy of God? Not know the Love of Christ, or the Love of the Father, and would not need the Holy Spirit at all. We would all be sort of robots.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12


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(Job 26,13) and His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. ---Mark_V. on 7/30/12

How about the original Hebrew?

chll idu nchsh brich
2342 3027 5175 1280
she-travailed hand of him serpent fugitive

H2342 chuwl chiyl properly, to twist or whirl i.e. (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain

H3027 yad a hand

H5175 nachash a snake

H1280 briyach KJV: fugitive.

His hand travailed with the fugitive serpent.

What now? During the formation of the heavens,He, with His hand, travailed with the fugitive serpent? or the Serpent "fell"? Whose testimony is reliable?

I would not have liked forming a being that opposed my every move, even knowing it was necessary
---Phil on 7/31/12


Phil, I don't know what Bible you are reading but (Job 26,13) is saying that by the Holy Spirit He adorn the heavens, and His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. You do know this is a figurative language don't you? Serpent is translate "Crooked." which means he is fallen, or sinner. You seem to think he is not fallen for some reason. He also was an angel even though a few passages call him a serpent, but he is called other names also. Real serpents have never talked. And this one lied to the teeth. He sinned against God before Eve did, since he tempted her to get her to rebel against God. The fall of man had not happened yet.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12


God needed a contrast for the display of His love and beneficience. Satan, that crooked serpent,formed by God's own hand (Job 26:13), is that tool of contrast. He has always been crooked, never a fallen "angel"

It is the myth of Lucifer I address. It is a false teaching setting astray many in the Body, as it has always done. It destroys the unity of the spirit with it's inherent darkness.

It promotes ignorance of what the plan of God is, and how He operates toward His goal to become All in all.

There are many threads related to this falsehood on this site.

For those with ears to hear, let them hear.
---Phil on 7/27/12


Phil, lets just suppose that you are right, and that Lucifur was never the name of satan. What are you trying to proof?
---Mark_V. on 7/25/12

I am glad that supposing something to be true in the word is not needed. I believe God. If He says something in His Declarations, it is truth.

If He has not said it, then is is not inspired.

Lucifer is not in the Scriptures. It is only in the translations.

What Jesus said about the Adversary is true (Jn 8:28), and not what people infer from reading Ezekiel 28, which talks of a man, not a spirit being.

I will acclaim His testimony, not men's theories and myths.
---Phil on 7/27/12


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Phil, lets just suppose that you are right, and that Lucifur was never the name of satan. What is your argument? That he was not fallen? That he was sinless? That he never lied, murdered? Why don't you tell us why you resist in not calling him Lucifur? What I understand of Ez.28 is that the prince of Tyre was a type of satan, and the reason the description was given. But lets say the writer was not referring to Lucifur, what is your argument? What are you trying to proof?
---Mark_V. on 7/25/12


willie_c:

Lucifer is not in the Manuscripts. The name is an insertion, not inspired by Holy Spirit. Your premise is based upon error.

If you would study the passage on the original Greek text:

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

You would find this out. Should you fail to investigate, you will continue in error.
---Phil on 7/24/12


Phil on 7/20/12 are you playing devil's advocate?
---francis on 7/22/12


It doesn't say God "created him a man-slayer and a liar". It does say "the King of Tyre" was perfect in his ways . . . "Until iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15). So, he was not created with iniquity.

Also, it does say >

"How you are fallen from heaven,
.O Lucifer, son of the morning!"
. . . . . . (Isaiah 14:12)

So, he was not created "fallen". "The beginning", then, included how at first he was not fallen, I consider. A beginning can be a point in time, or a period of time. And "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (1 Peter 3:8) But if we dictate our own meanings, we can create contradictions (c:
---willie_c: on 7/20/12


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Clearly Jesus means that the devil was a murderer "from the beginning" of his rebellion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/12


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