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Do Lies Become Truth

If a person hears and believes lies of Satan for so long, (like those lies told by the WOF) does their lies ever become Truth.

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 ---Rob on 7/20/12
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"Before the judgment seat of...who?" (Rom 14:10 & 2 Cor 5:10). Warwick (1)

In the Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah is identified as the Judge of all the earth. (Ge 18:25) Similarly, in the CGS he is called the Judge of all. (Heb 12:23) He has, though, appointed his Son to do the judging for him:

"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son..." John 5:22

The Bible speaks of Jesus as "appointed," "decreed," and "destined" to judge. (Ac 10:42, 17:31, 2Ti 4:1)

No contradiction- Referring to the "Judgment Seat" of the Father and the Son certainly does not make them 2 persons of a mysterious Triune.
---scott on 8/17/12


Scott, Paul says "we will all stand before the judgment seat of God" Romans 14:10.

And ".we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ," 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Is Paul confused? Whose judgement seat is it, anyway, Christ's or God's? Are there 2, can we choose? Paul solves this apparent dilemma, for you, in Romans 9:5 calling Christ "..God over all," God's judgement seat/Christ's judgement seat, the same judgement seat, the same person.

Your beliefs leave you with judgement seat no. 1 where God presides and no.2 where an angel, a creature judges mankind. However 1 Corinthians 6:3 says we judge angels, not the reverse.
---Warwick on 8/16/12


Sure....it becomes their truth. Otherwise, they would not keep believing in the lies. It does not mean it is Truth per se...because God is the only Truth!
---Sharon on 8/16/12


The "Fullness"- Ruben

Not sure what you mean by "Another Jehovah"...but as mentioned earlier:

Having "the fulness" of someone or something can simply mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing.

Likewise Eph. 1:22, 23 says: "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 8/16/12

But what does "fullness of the divine quailty dwells bodily." mean? (Col 2:8) In others words Jesus has all the qualities of God or put
another way all the fullness of the divine quality! Surely you do not think christians also has the divine quality?
---Ruben on 8/16/12


The "Fullness"- Ruben

Not sure what you mean by "Another Jehovah"...but as mentioned earlier:

Having "the fulness" of someone or something can simply mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. This is why the New International Dictionary of NT Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734, pg 4

Likewise Eph. 1:22, 23 says: "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 8/16/12




Because GOD was going to come down to earth and become a man so in trying to explain this to us it gets a little complicated. So JESUS is telling us He is GOD and he made the decision by which he would be both GOD and man.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/12


Additionally, the question you have avoided is: Since Christ has this "fullness" "by God's own decision" (GNT), because God "chose" (Goodspeed), "decided" (Beck), or "willed" it (Moffatt), why, If Christ is Almighty God, is possession of the "fulness" dependent on someone else...called God?
---scott on 8/14/12

Scott,

But why would Jehova need another Jehova? After all, it does said "fullness dwell in him: v19 and in Col 2:8 reads "divine quality dwells bodily"! And many verses that speaks about Jehova and at the same time applys to Jesus.
---Ruben on 8/16/12


Red-Herring Alert!

I've commented extensively on the subject of Christ and Creation, but here Marc uses the topic to distract.

Before the question of creator-ship was injected I said:

"The...dilemma this verse presents for Trinitarians is the fact that Christ has this "fullness" because "it pleased the Father" (KJV) or "by God's own decision" (GNT) and asked:

"Are Almighty God's powers and attributes something contingent upon the "will" or "decree" of another?"

Marc replied that Christ (essentially) always had it...eliciting my reply with UBS NT Handbook reference that challenges his conclusion.

Let's see if Marc can stay on topic.
---scott on 8/16/12


Scott, I'm waiting too and He is waiting too.
---Warwick on 8/16/12


******************

MarkV: "Jerry, you are right, it was my mistake concerning (Luke 23:56)."

Finally, you acknowledge truth!

" ... Pentecost, when the Apostolic Church begin to meet on Sundays for worship."

God never commanded anyone to meet on Sundays. If you can show one passage where God says Sunday, then you have made your point. To this day you cannot find one.


***********************
---jerry6593 on 8/16/12




Scott, dripping with dishonesty and disingenuousness, doesn't answer my question but prefers to sow seeds of doubt through quoting TRINITARIANS out of CONTEXT. That's right folks, Trinitarians! Desperately unoriginal and hypocritical!

I said months ago the Watchtower never has original research but opts for the easy cut-and-paste methodology that undergraduate cheats favour.

Again, how is it possible that a created finite angel, Michael, can hold all the fullness of the infinite uncreated God?

We're still waiting.
---Marc on 8/15/12


Rob's comment is posting this cannot be something so silly as it initially sounds.....

However, when people saw about 'this is what people knows/believes......' the statement that may follow, to be true, quite often must be a lie, because what people believe are lies. There, if you keep putting out lies, the comment about what 'people believe' become true by being lies -because people believe lies
---Peter on 8/15/12


"The Son already had all the fullness..." Marc (1)

UBS (United Bible Societies) NT Handbook Series, 1961-1997

Colossians 1:19 - RSV/TEV Comparison

"For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God."

"The Greek may mean: God decided to have his fullness dwell in Christ, or God's fullness decided to dwell in Christ, depending on whether the neuter phrase pan to pleerooma is construed as an accusative, the object of the verb, or as nominative, the subject of the verb...To have, as RSV does, "in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell," is not very satisfying..."

Continued
---scott on 8/15/12


"The Son already had all the fullness..." Marc (2)

UBS NT Handbook Series, 1961-1997

Continued-

"...It seems better to take "all the fullness" as object, and God as the (unexpressed) subject of the sentence: "it was God's choice/decision/ pleasure (for the verb eudokeoo compare 1 Cor 1:21, Gal 1:15, compare the noun eudokia in Eph 1:5,9, Phil 2:13) to have all the fullness dwell in him." GeCL "It was God's will and plan." For it was by God's own decision may be expressed more simply as "for God himself decided."

Emphasis (obviously) mine
---scott on 8/15/12


Scott,

The Son already had all the fullness of the Godhead as he is, even before his incarnation, stated to be the Creator (Colossians 1:16) and the upholding principle of the Creation (Colossians 1:17 'sunestake'). The pleasure of the Father was directed at this fullness being continued by His Son when He incarnated i.e. took on a body that the Father had prepared for Him.

Makes more CONTEXTUAL sense than some finite, creature angel called Michael being creator and the upholding principle of all creation!! To understand, every time you see the word Jesus, replace this with Michael the angel and see what arrant nonsense comes out of your mouth.
---Marc on 8/15/12


So, Scott, if the Dictionary described The Watchtower as a dangerous brain-washing cult whose theology has no historical basis in the earliest Church, you would agree BECAUSE the dictionary stated that?
---Marc on 8/15/12


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Jerry, you are right, it was my mistake concerning (Luke 23:56). My point was, Jesus had not ascented, and the Holy Spirit had not indwelled believers yet until Pentecost, when the Apostolic Church begin to meet on Sundays for worship. Old Testament Israel were under the Law. They met on Saturdays. That was my point, they were man's traditions, just like the traditions the Jews held in the Old Testament. God never commanded anyone to meet on Saturday's. If you can show one passage where God says Saturday, then you have made your point. To this day you cannot find one.
---Mark_V. on 8/15/12


No, Scott, didn't avoid anything. The FATHER is pleased the INCARNATE Son has the fullness of the Godhead. (Spend less time cutting and pasting and begin thinking for yourself.)

You make an elementary, but prosaic, formal logical fallacy by concluding that because the Son in bodily form contains all the Godhead he necessarily didn't possess it previously, only acquiring this fullness at the incarnation. To be kind, I guess such paralogism can be excused due to its being a natural consequence of your heretical belief that Jesus was once a created angel.

Now it's your turn: Explain how logically and ontologically a finite, non-eternal creature (Michael the angel) can contain ALL the fullness of an eternal, infinite Being (YHWH).
---Marc on 8/15/12


"The reason" Marc (1)

Yes, as I noted below, the New International Dictionary of NT Theology says (JB): "this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-18 is entirely related to Christ's cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18)..."

..."For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740.

Additionally, the question you have avoided is: Since Christ has this "fullness" "by God's own decision" (GNT), because God "chose" (Goodspeed), "decided" (Beck), or "willed" it (Moffatt), why, If Christ is Almighty God, is possession of the "fulness" dependent on someone else...called God?
---scott on 8/14/12


"The reason" Marc (2)

Additionally:

Since it was "by God's own decision" (GNT) or [will] (Moffatt) that Christ have this "fulness" (for the prophetic reconciliation) at what point did the Son of God not posses it?

Are you suggesting that there was a time (Phil 2 5-7 perhaps?) when Christ was not "Fully God"?
---scott on 8/14/12


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Marc, as regards any victim of the Watchtower it isn't C-O-N-T-E-X-T it's more like CON-text.
---Warwick on 8/14/12


Scott as the man said: Jes cos ahm parrynoyd done mean theys ain't out to git me.

How do you explain that on numerous occasions you and David have been given the last 3-5 blogs on an already closed thread? Coincidence?

My carpet may be threadbare but at least it's clean and it's there.

I notice you ducked the question of how Jesus could be Creator and sustainer of everything and be a creature at the same time? How can a creature create himself?
---Warwick on 8/14/12


MarkV: More irrelevant blather, but no scripture.

"Luke 23:56) What? Jesus had not gone to the Cross yet."

What a deluded pseudo-scholar you are!

Luk 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the SABBATH drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the SABBATH day according to the commandment.

---jerry6593 on 8/14/12


"A Watchtower Site" Warwick

You have got to be kidding.

First you (or Marc?) accused David and I of being "Paid Watchtower plants" (hah, that was a good one...still waiting for that check!) now it's a WT site? 2 lone voices amongst hundreds?

Perhaps your inability to effectively defend your threadbare theology has you slipping into a state of paranoia. I know you won't take it as it's intended...but for what it's worth, I'm genuinely worried for you.
---scott on 8/13/12


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Scott,

Re Colossians, 1:18-19 provides the reason it pleased the Father that in the BODY (Colossians 1:22, 2:9) of Jesus all the Godhead's fullness existed: so TO, and BY, Jesus' crucifixion/resurrection the entire creation will be RECONCILED back to the Father.

All the fullness of the Godhead already existed in the pre-incarnate Son because he's YHWH (see e.g. Thomas' "The Lord of me and THE God of me."). After all, Scott, how could a finite creature (aka Michael the angel - say who/what??!!) hold "all the fullness of the Godhead"??? (Come on Scott, explain how a finite CREATED angel can hold ALL the UNCREATED infinite.)

C-O-N-T-E-X-T, not surgically isolated verses, is everything.
---Marc on 8/13/12


Scott I do not believe in constant coincidence. That you and David have been allowed to post numerous blogs after various threads have reached their limits is common knowledge. Do you say there is no such thing as conspiracy? Quite likely this is a JW site. I wonder if the moderator will deny that?

This was one of the poorest of your usually predictably poor efforts.

It is also good to see you can give no case against the Scriptures I posted regarding Jesus being Creator and sustainer of everything. You would have us believe the Creator and sustainer is but a creature who somehow created everything, which must include himself. Quite a trick!

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we pracitise to deceive.
---Warwick on 8/13/12


Jerry, your mind is deluted with E.G. Whites visions. You give as proof (Matt. 15:9 and Luke 23:56) What? Jesus had not gone to the Cross yet. Sorry, but those people were under the Law. The Law given to Israel.
Second, traditions of man gave Saturday as the Seventh day under the Law, not God. He never commanded anyone to Observe Saturday. He said the seventh Day. In the Apostolic Church after the Cross the seventh day became Sunday, by traditions of man. That is the Historical history of Christianity. Seventh Day Adventist have no historical history to speak of, they were created by E.G. White who got hit in the head with a rock and begin to have visions. 1844 is not Christian history, it's the time she begin to have visions.
---Mark_V. on 8/13/12


Jerry 2: You also said,

"But only one day is holy - made that way by God Himself - not by man. That's the day God has appointed to meet with us"

Well, for those under the Law, He sure did appoint the seventh day for they were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit since Jesus had not risen. But for those in Christ, who are indwelled by God the Spirit, He speaks to us everyday. We don't have to wait for His voice till Saturday. Every time we open His Word, He speaks to us. Everyday is the Sabbath because Jesus Christ is our rest. Every day is Holy to us. In the New Testament, Jesus debates the Jews about the topic of Sabbath observance and declares that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mk 2:21-28),
---Mark_V. on 8/13/12


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"A previous thread which you engineered to be closed"- Warwick

How exactly does that work. Can you say "Conspiracy Theory?"

"Definitely one of your poorer efforts"- Warwick

On the bright side at least this indicates that I must have had a 'good' effort at some point. Wonder why you never mentioned it?
---scott on 8/13/12


Amen Jerry it is difficult to explain to many deceived Christians the meaning of perpetual is forever. Exodus 31:16 states the Sabbath is given to man forever (perpetual). The deceived believe the lies of the catholic religion instead of the Lord Jesus by his word states his truth is the 10 laws Follow the catholic religion or follow the Lord it is impossible to do both.

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psalm 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD, and all thy commandments are truth.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/13/12


I take that the question above is meant to be facetious or rhetorical! But, a LIE, no matter how many times it is told, or believed, NEVER becomes a "Truth". A lie only becomes a "truth" to the person who is believing the lie. And, it is STILL a lie, but, they believe, in their own heart and mind, that it is the "truth".
---Gordon on 8/13/12


Col 1:19 - "Fulness"-

The obvious dilemma this verse presents for Trinitarians is the fact that Christ has this "fullness" because "it pleased the Father" (KJV) or "by God's own decision". (GNT)

Are Almighty God's powers and attributes something contingent upon the "will" or "decree" of another? Of course not. This is the case with the fullness belonging to Christ. God "chose" (Goodspeed), "decided" (Beck), "willed" (Moffatt) to have all His attributes displayed in the person of His Son.

If Christ were Almighty God, then he would have all the fullness of deity of his own right, not because of a decision taken by someone else.
---scott on 8/13/12


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MarkV: "After the Cross, the Apostolic Church made the seventh day Sunday."

Oh, did they now? I'd like to see scriptural justification for that.

My Bible says:

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

After the cross .....

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Like you, I worship God every day of the week. But only one day is holy - made that way by God Himself - not by man. That's the day God has appointed to meet with us.

BTW, the seventh day of the week was never changed to Sunday. Check your calendar.



---jerry6593 on 8/13/12


Scott you are so obvious. I am sure you fool some at play-school. As usual you do a little cherry-picking, and context evading. As Marc points out chapter 1 of Colossians reveals Jesus as Creator God, He who holds all things together. But bravely stomping forward into context-free mode you confront "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." Not a new revelation regarding the Creator and sustainer of all things, but a restatement of 1:19 "for God was pleased to have all his fulness dwell within him" (Jesus). But you ignore all this and try to make 2:10 says we are, like Jesus, (Creator God and sustainer) filled, with God. But verse 10 does not equate those who follow Jesus, with their Creator!
---Warwick on 8/13/12


Scott, on a previous thread which you engineered to be closed, you attempted to equate blasphemy of Paul with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But as usual you avoid the whole story and context. Firstly I do not imagine anyone confused Paul with the Holy Spirit. Secondly you avoided the obvious that "blasphemy involves the actual pronunciation of the name of God", see Leviticus 24:14-16. Thirdly does Jesus say blasphemy directed against Paul will never be forgiven? No!

Definitely one of your poorer efforts and evidence of desperation.
---Warwick on 8/13/12


Scott,

Re 'fullness', it's an elementary point. There are two verses using the word, not one. As I and others have tried to instruct you, it's the full context, not the cherry-picked one that JWs prefer.

In Colossians 2:9 Christ has the entire fullness of the Godhead i.e. he's Creator and Sustainer (see 1:16,17). In verse 2:10 we are made full in Him due to the full understanding and knowledge that He is this and thus God (2:2-3).

Either you are unable to follow Paul's point (?misled)or you deliberately mislead. It's about time you matured and began to reason for yourself rather than selectively quoting and committing the fallacy from authority (I suppose JWs can't resist that as they just love 'authority'!).
---Marc on 8/12/12


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Colossians 2:9-10- (The "Fullness")- (2)

Trinitarian, NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up" "(a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23...in 3:19, of their being filled ...`with' all the fulness of God, of their being 'made full' in Him, Col. 2:10." Expository Dictionary of NT Words, p. 426

New International Dictionary of NT Theology:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-18 is entirely related to Christ's cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, 1986, 1991
---scott on 8/11/12


No laws no righteousness. Gods laws are Truth all else are lies.

Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psalm 119:151
Thou art near, O LORD, and all thy commandments are truth.

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

To hear Satan and believe his lies does not make it truth it only means you do not obey Gods 10 laws Romans 7:12
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/11/12


Scott,

Ignore context, substitute an unrelated verse to dissuade people from the genuine Jesus! Concerning you Paul wrote: "I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words." It's inconceivable Jesus' possessing "all the fullness of the Godhead" means he's merely "influenced by [the Godhead]" given that by Jesus "all things were created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, principalities or powers. All things were created through and for Him. He's before all things, in Him all things hold together." That's not "influence" that's YHWH's responsibility i.e. Creator and Sustainer. It's not a creature's as JWs believe.
---Marc on 8/11/12


Colossians 2:9-10- (The "Fullness")- (1)

Having "the fulness" of someone or something can simply mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. This is why the New International Dictionary of NT Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734, pg 4

Likewise Eph. 1:22, 23 says: "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 8/11/12


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Jerry, I have no clue why you argue. God did institute the seventh day Sabbath, that is not in question. Never Saturday, man instituted Saturday not God. He did institute the seventh day, for the Jews who were under blessings and curses, under the Law. Jesus did keep the whole law perfect for He was and is perfect. After the Cross, the Apostolic Church made the seventh day Sunday. But since Christ now lives in us, we worship Him everyday, every day is holy for all of us. You can worship Him at any time or any place, with someone, or by yourself. The Jews did not have the indwelling of the Spirit, Under Christ we do. If you only want to worship Him Saturday's, I'm sure that is alright with God. That is why I don't tell you when to worship God.
---Mark_V. on 8/11/12


Scott,

Re Colossians 2:9-10, pretty poor exegesis. Context is everything. Paul was clearly talking about Christians who were being robbed intellectually by heretics who diminished the full Godhead of Christ, something like what JWs do now. Paul stated that Christ is God (honestly, Scott, he did!) and that in him ALL the treasures of knowledge and wisdom lie so that by knowing who Christ was you could attain "to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father andof Christ". Read chapter from the beginning.
---Marc on 8/10/12


Jerry, you are so wrong again. you don't know what love is. I love you and have told you that many times. I tell you this things to help you. If I did not love you I would not care. I consider you my brother, but someone so rapped up with your denomination, that any time anyone disagrees with you, you cry foul. Even the food one eats is foul. The days we can worship foul. We want to worship the Lord everyday and you say no, Saturday. Nothing is good for you. I don't feel sorry for you, I don't even think of you, but I answer when you answer. If you don't answer me, I won't answer you. I belief you are my brother, but if you don't consider me your brother, that is ok. You answer for yourself.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/12


MarkV: You demean yourself with your constant childish name calling. Your hatred of your fellow Christians has poisoned your mind. Here are the facts:

1) God (not man as you assert) instituted the holy seventh-day Sabbath at Creation (Gen 2:2,3).

2) God commands you and me to keep this day holy (Exo 20:8-11).

3) Jesus, our perfect example, kept the seventh-day Sabbath (Luk 4:16).

4) It remains for us to determine which day of the week that is for us today, and to keep it.

I have repeatedly asked you to research for yourself item 4) and explain your findings, but you would rather continue digging yourself deeper into a pit of lies than face the truth.


---jerry6593 on 8/8/12


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Jerry, you now say,

"Again, you misquote me! I told you that God commands you to keep the SEVENTH DAY holy."

That is not what you said. Now you are covering a lie. That is what gets people in trouble, one lie covering another lie and so on. Pretty soon there is no Truth at all. But that is Ok. You could not give me the day God begin creation either. When He started and when He took rest. Man instituted Saturaday as a seventh day of worship in the Old Testament, Man instituted Sunday as the seventh day of worship. If you had moved to the Spirit of the law, you would know that, but you are still under the Law.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/12


judy:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


---jerry6593 on 8/6/12


If u believe Jesus is the Son of God, second person of Trinity and died for your sins and rose again, and u ask Him into your life to save u, repenting of your sins, u will be saved. Other stuff is trivial compared to this. Many denominations and all have different opinions on things, such as talking in tongues and which day is the Sabbath, etc. These differences of opinion, should not cost anyone their salvation.
---judy on 8/3/12


MarkV: You are difficult to teach, but since you finally got "beliefs" right, there's hope. Again, you misquote me! I told you that God commands you to keep the SEVENTH DAY holy. I also challenged you to research what day of the week that is today - a challenge which you are unable or unwilling to accept.

Here's a question for you. The spirit put into a body to make a soul - is it God's spirit or man's spirit?


---jerry6593 on 8/2/12


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Jerry, avoided the question again, I see. Not a problem. I did not expect you to give an answer just like before, maybe a few jabs or arrows my way, but not an answer. A person cannot change his nature, that is the work of God.

Concerning the question, the Word of Faith teachers lies, never become Truth. Their lies don't change to be Truth. Now they could be changed themselves and begin speaking the Truth, but that it takes a supernatural act of God. They are there for a reason that only God knows. We are finite and can never know the ways of God in all things.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/12


In over 100 languages (created at the Tower of Babel long before there ever was a Jew) their name for the 7th day is "sabbath." Spanish is the most obvious example.

In the 5th century two historians with no theological axe to grind noted that most Christians around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath--except those in Rome and Alexandria and they didn't know why.
---David_Conklin on 8/2/12


Thanks jakas! Yes, my father always said I was quite contrary.


---jerry6593 on 8/1/12


jerry, you keep answering me because you love me and I love you and, because I disagree with much of your beliefs (there beliefs). And of course you don't like that anyone questions you. You had told me "God commanded man to keep Saturday Sabbath" He never did. The reason you could not find one passage. Now you say Saturday is not in the Bible. So thanks for admitting that.
Second, you again avoided the question as always, what kind of death are you talking about? It is important that you define what you are talking about concerning what happens to the Spirit of those born of the Spirit, when you give a passage concerning the soul of men. The physical body dies, what happens to the spirit? Does it die also?
---Mark_V. on 8/1/12


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aka: Years ago, I happened to overhear my children making fun of some other children by calling them "Jerry's Kids" (an obvious reference to the palsied children helped by Jerry Lewis on his yearly telethon). I shut them up by reminding them that they were all "Jerry's Kids".


---jerry6593 on 7/30/12

that is funny. thank you for the laugh...jerryjerryquitecontrary

hey, you got a fun name!

jakas
---aka on 7/31/12


MarkV: I'm not sure why I bother answering you, since you do not seem able to grasp logical thought. One more time, the word "Saturday" - like the word "Sunday" - does not appear in the Bible, and I never said it did. However, God Himself made the seven-day week as a memorial of His Creation, and crowned it by making the seventh day HOLY. It is the ONLY day that He ever made holy, and He commands you and me to keep it that way. Jesus kept the seventh-day Sabbath. Wouldn't you like to emulate Him? Go research for yourself which day of the week is the seventh, and get back to me (with sources).

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
---jerry6593 on 7/31/12


Jerry, you have a way of weaving around and not answering the questions. Like you could not provide one passage where God said Saturday was the Sabbath and you said there was. Now you avoid answering what kind of death you are talking about, because if you do answer, it will expose that you know nothing of what it is to be born of the Spirit, and have no answer to what happens to the spirit of those who are saved when the body dies. Always the same thing. Nothing, Zero, Nada.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12


MarkV: For the last time, it's BELIEFS, not BELIEVES! The scriptures quoted made no differentiation as to the "kind" of death. As for the kind of death that I mean, it is the kind found in the dictionary. You know, that book that says that Saturday is the seventh-day Sabbath. For the sake of our current discussion, you may assume that I mean death to be the cessation of all mental activity. Your belief in any other state of existence for the dead makes you a spititualist!


---jerry6593 on 7/29/12


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Jerry, I know that every time you answer a question, your agenda is to promote your believes from the SDA's. Whether it is Saturday Sabbath, soul sleep, or the time of creation. Second, it is not a simple question concerning death. You never mentioned what death you were talking about. Spiritual death, physical death, dead in trespasses and sins, death in the pot, the dead trembling under the water and those inhabiting them? There is many deaths in Scripture.
That the serpent lied is for sure, but your question does not speak what kind of death he lied about. So what death are you talking about?
---Mark_V. on 7/28/12


2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world(satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not...
It's plain to see in our denominations, that if a lie is preached enough, it is taken for the truth, however, everybody believing a lie does not make it true
---michael_e on 7/27/12


MarkV: What is wrong with you? I asked a simple question and, as usual, you ignore it and rant about something else.

God said you will die. Satan said you won't. I think that you must believe Satan rather than God. Prove me wrong! Confess that the dead are really dead, and not disembodied spooks floating through space.


---jerry6593 on 7/27/12


Jerry, why would you ask this question?

"So whom do YOU believe? Do you believe that the dead are really dead, or do you believe that man is immortal"

when your question had nothing whatsoever to do with what you said before? You are adding to your remark about who first lied. Or you suggesting that man does not die? Or that those dead are not really dead? or that those who are born of the Spirit died spiritually when they died physically and are not with God spiritually? Make you point. You want to now bring up soul or spirit sleep, is that what you now want to do?
---Mark_V. on 7/25/12


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The first LIE of the Bible was told by Satan. God had said:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But Satan said:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So whom do YOU believe? Do you believe that the dead are really dead, or do you believe that man is immortal?


---jerry6593 on 7/23/12


Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
These are only true in the sense that they were spoken.
These are truly lies.
Even if someone believed the lie, it is still a lie: deception has taken place
If someone says the answer is 27 when the true answer is 22, he only deceives himself to continue to believe it and deceives others by continuing to proclaim it.
The answer is false and knowingly disseminating a false answer is lying.
Unknowingly declaring what is false is deception.
---micha9344 on 7/22/12


just because someone lies that does not by any means make it true. I had a brother who lied everytime he opened his mouth but when he was old he had told the lies so much he believed it. He even took my dad's name while he was in a nursing home and told everyone he was a preacher. that was the biggest lie he told. all his family knew so he is the only one who believed everything he said.
---shira4368 on 7/22/12


Steven, I know your hatred for the denominations, and I believe in many cases you are right. But you go to far. Not all are created by satan. You got satan creating a lot of things and forget that man is responsible for what he does. And will be judge by what he does.
You said:
"To keep you from believing these lies a person must read and study the world of God only and seek Him for understanding."
Not correct. A person needs to be born of the Spirit in order to understand and seek God (Rom. 3:11). You can study all you want, but without the Spirit, it is meaningless.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/12


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God designed scripture (not just "INSPIRED" it) so that those who TRULY have the desire to LEARN, will learn without being taught by man (they will be taught by "the anointing", 1 John 2:27, but only after moving ahead to a "solid food" devotion, Hebrews 5:14). Therefore, our devotion should no longer depend ONLY on the "doctrine of Christ" ("It is DONE"/finalized), but devotion/worship must be divine/"perfect" LOVE FOR GOD (after the cross, Jesus gave us the Spirit, John 7:39).

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore,...".

...you said "THEIR truth" (SUBJECTIVE truth is why Jesus ended up on the cross). Pilate said "What is truth?").

Verses are RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 7/21/12


God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

Satan is the father of deceit. He has had 2,000 years to infiltrate the church dividing it up into thousands of worldly denominations each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible. These are the end days that christians who think they are christians, but are not.

To keep you from believing these lies a person must read and study the world of God only and seek Him for understanding. This is the only way for a person to build a strong foundation in God's word. Then you will know the truth from the lies.
---Steveng on 7/21/12


I agree completely Chria. I did not mean suggest otherwise. The lies of Satan can never become the truth of our Father. However as you have noted, there will always be those who exchange the "Truth of God" for a lie.
---joseph on 7/21/12


"whatever one believes to be true, is for that one truth".
I agree, but wrote of The Truth, Capitol t, as opposed to truth, not capitalized. It is simply their truth. I prefer the gospel of Christ and to have the mind renewed by the Word

THE TRUTH is Jesus Christ, in whom is nothing false, no shadow of turning, with whom it is impossible to lie, the same yesterday today and forever. The Word of God, Son of God, begotten of the Father, who became flesh, the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. Those who glorified Him not as God, changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image, changed the Truth of God into a lie, worshipped, served the creature more than Creator,
---Chria9396 on 7/21/12


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"If a person hears and believes lies of Satan for so long, does their lies ever become Truth." Rob the obvious answer is yes. Satan's lie from the beginning of this age, "you shall not surely die" Gen. 3:4, has been accepted as truth by many. As I have often said, "whatever one believes to be true, is for that one truth".
---joseph on 7/20/12


No. However, some will believe lies to be Truth, the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Jesus is the Truth, and is the same yesterday, today and forever.
---Chria9396 on 7/20/12


WOF is the Word Of Faith Movement.

They say they are of God, but the truth is they are of Satan, 2 Corinthans Chapter Eleven, and 2 Peter Chapter Two.
---Rob on 7/20/12


If a person hears and believes lies of Satan for so long, does their lies ever become Truth.

---Rob on 7/20/12

It never becomes truth, but people may believe that it is true

That is why so many people forsake the 4th commandment of God.

They have heard so many times that sunday is the lord's day or that christians are to gather on sunday, that they believe it without biblical support
---francis on 7/20/12


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There seem to be many different truths here on christianblogs.
---Smitty on 7/20/12


You are making one big, big, big mistake by not speaking in "no uncertain terms".

You can LIKE the truth by GETTING the truth whenever you search for it (a "truthquest"), but believers should LOVE the truth and GIVE IT when they speak......(speak in no uncertain terms so as to ensure that the truth of what you have to say is understood).

2 Thessalonians 2:6 "because they refused to love the truth AND SO BE SAVED".

What is "WOF"? (you do want us to know, don't you?).
---more_excellent_way on 7/20/12


"A lie told often enough becomes the truth."

Valimar Lenin Russian Communist politician & revolutionary (1870 - 1924)
---lee1538 on 7/20/12


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