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Beginning Of Son Of God

What or when do you think is the "beginning" of the son of God? In the beginning was the word, but the son does not know certain future events (his own return)

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 ---glen on 7/25/12
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'no scriptural proof Paul wrote Hebrews'- mjchael_e.

You can always trust a trinitarian to cast doubt on the writership of the Bible.

Would discovering Paul was the writer of Hebrews come as a huge life changing shock to mjchael_e's faith in the same way if he discovered the trinity was not a Bible teaching?

Whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not, the trinity stands within Christendom as the central teaching... "and to hell you'll go if you deny the trinity!"

Perhaps mjchael_e believes 'he'll go to hell' if he believes Paul wrote Hebrews? Is knowing who the author of Hebrews "central to a christians faith"? I think not, but trinitarians believe the trinity is and yet 'trinity' is not in the Bible!
---David8318 on 8/6/12


James L... the "Hypocrite! ! !"

I only worship one God Jehovah. I don't worship 'the Word' even though John describes him as 'a god' or 'divine'.

You however do. You worship 'the Word', identify him as 'God' and also worship the God the Word is 'with'. How many 'God's' do you polytheist trinitarians want to worship!? It escapes your understanding that "theos" can be used to describe an individual as in the case of John 1:1c and Acts 28:6. You always use it as an identifier.

I agree with Paul who said even though 'there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'', there is but 'one God... and one Lord, Jesus Christ'- 1Cor.8:5,6. According to your reasoning James, Paul is also a polytheist!?
---David8318 on 8/6/12


'Wouldn't that be also your answer? Jehova(Father)'- Ruben.

Yes, but the difference is you also believe 'the Word' to be God. You have 2 God's of whom you worship in your understanding of John 1:1. I only worship one God. I believe 'the Word' is described as 'a god' or 'divine' at Jo.1:1. It's your polytheist indoctrination into trinitarianism that leads you to believe 'the Word is God'. You like James fail to realise "theos" can also be used to describe an individual, not just identify them- Acts 28:6.

Whilst some are described as 'gods', I neither worship 2 gods, nor 2 God's. Just one God Jehovah- Deut.6:4.

If you don't understand the difference, you likely believe Paul is teaching polytheism at 1 Cor.8:5,6.
---David8318 on 8/6/12


Peter, If I remember my history correctly Christian Gk. Christianos, was a name given to the followers of Christ by inhabitants of Antioch. It was not the name by which they called themselves. As I see it Christianity is not a foreign thing to the people of the OT but what they were expecting and what most missed when it came. When you meet and talk with, or read what Messianic Jews have written you come to know they became followers of Jesus when they came to understand He was their Messiah. Jesus is He whom their ancestors missed/rejected not something new or in competition to their OT beliefs but their fulfillment. Someone wrote The OT is the NT concealed and the NT the OT revealed.
---Warwick on 8/6/12


If Christ doesn't know when the world will end, then no one else does!

Mark 13:32-33 (NASB77)
32 " But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
33 "Take heed, keep on the alert, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

The Christian needs to be ready all the time.
---wivv on 8/4/12



So how is Christ/God The point is The Jesus only crew don't understand scripture. There is still, NO Trinity ! these are all made made Religions
---Carla on 8/6/12




\\Ruben has two 'God's' at John 1:1- 'the Word was God' (Jesus) who is "with" God the Father. Trinity = polytheism.\\
---David8318 on 8/4/12


and you think you can convince anyone that you don't have two gods at John 1:1 ??


The word was "a" god ???

dosn't that mean "also" a god ???


You throw around a charge of polytheism as though it bears any weight, but what about your S"upreme God" and his little minion "gods" ??

that reeks of Canaanite polytheistic worship, with El as Supreme along with Ba'al, Dagon, and the other minions.

Hypocrite ! ! !

Take the plank out of your own eye before you try to take the speck our of another's eye
---James_L on 8/5/12


Cliff, The point is, I have Jewish friends who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour, and yes believe in the Trinity.

Of course there are 2 people mentioned God and Jesus the man in whom all God's fullness dwells. Jesus,fully Man (e.g. see Hebrews ch. 2),fully
God (e.g. see Hebrews ch.1)-man is flesh,God is Spirit. This is the Son who said "..when Christ came into the world, he said, ......a body have you prepared for me,"

Now if God had chosen to have mentioned the Holy Spirit we would have 3 persons.

Happily you have left the WTS but sadly it has not left you.

Christianity began with Christ the Creator and the 'protoevangelium', the first gospel Genesis 3:15-see also Romans 16:20.
---Warwick on 8/5/12


Warwick, I would agree that Judaism predates Christianity IN A SENSE. Initially, the Jews expected Christ, and the idea was that when Christ arrived, the Jews would believe in Christ and would be called..... we don't know what.

So the initial name Judaism, at least, is older
---Peter on 8/5/12


//You'll find Paul's letter to the Hebrews in most Bibles between Philemon and James.//

Since you have no scriptural proof Paul wrote Hebrews, your assumption that Paul wrote Hebrews is no more scriptural than the word trinity
---michael_e on 8/5/12


If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Before anything was!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/5/12




Warwick, You cite Col.1.16 and vs 19 says "For God was pleased to have all his (God's)fullness dwell in him (Jesus)and through him(Jesus)to reconcile to himself (God)all things.."
There are 2 persons in this verse, not one! (perhaps you believe it's soliloquy?)
So Christianity began when?
I also have close Jewish friends! And like I metioned in my last post "ask a Rabbi about the trinity!"
---1st_cliff on 8/5/12


David8318 * What the trinity does to people like Ruben is force them into polytheism. Note Rubens answer to my question 8/1/12, 'In your understanding of John 1:1, who is Jesus "with"? Rubens answer- 'who else but God the Father'.

Wouldn't that be also your answer? Jehova(Father)

David8318 * Ruben has two 'God's' at John 1:1- 'the Word was God' (Jesus) who is "with" God the Father. Trinity = polytheism.

Your bible has ' and the word was a god'
Who really has two gods?:)
---Ruben on 8/5/12


Ruben's attempt to trinitarianize Hebrews 7:3 deepens the trinity mystery.

How can God be a priest to himself? Jesus is a 'priest according to the manner of Melchizadek'- Ps.110:4, Heb.7:17. Ruben thus believes God (in the form of Jesus) is a priest of God, pleading our cause before God. Not only is such a trinitarian notion absurd, it nullifies the meaning and purpose of Jesus' priestly office for mankind.

Ruben again is teaching polytheism- God being priest to another God. However I'd be kind to Ruben and say he doesn't quite know what he's talking about.

Reasons why Jesus is compared with Melchizadek is because both were men, who had a beginning and who were not God, but priests to God.
---David8318 on 8/5/12


mjchael_e, I agree the trinity is an unscriptural word used to describe an unscriptural and pagan doctrine. But I don't know what you are talking about with regard to the scripture Paul wrote to the Hebrews?

You'll find Paul's letter to the Hebrews in most Bibles between Philemon and James.

Interesting set of scriptures trey. None of which mention 'trinity' or support the mystery-trinity.

John 1:1 opens- "In the beginning the Word was..." This makes no sense if as trinitarianism teaches the Word 'was God'. Of course God was in the beginning, is there any doubt God was not? Point of fact that 'the Word' (God's Son- Jesus) was with God at the beginning of creation.
---David8318 on 8/5/12


Cliff, how can you say Judaism predates Christianity when Jesus Christ is the Creator God, as Colossians 1:16 plainly and positively says? BTW I have good relationships with a number of Jews and hold them, and their faith in high esteem.
---Warwick on 8/5/12


Phil, the Son of God has no beginning, His is eternal pre-existent. He has no beginning. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. In the Messianic prophecy Christ is spoken of as the Child to be born in Bethlehem
"Whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2). The annoucement of the orgin of this Ruler as being before all worlds unquestionably presupposes His divine nature, but this thought was not strange to the prophetic mind in Micah's time, but is expressed without ambiguity by Isaiah, when he gives the Messiah the name of "the mighty God"
Anyone who wants to strip Christ of His deity always attack His humanity to do so.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/12


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//Paul was writing to the Hebrews-//
//What I do know about the trinity is that it is an unscriptural word//

Where is the scripture Paul wrote Hebrews? If you can't find it, what you are saying is as unscriptural as the word trinity.








p
---mjchael_e on 8/4/12


'you guys have no clue of the doctine of the Trinity!'- Ruben.

Does anybody!? Does Ruben understand the trinity?

What I do know about the trinity is that it is an unscriptural word used to describe an unscriptural pagan dogma. Pagan as the trinity dogma was fashioned out of pagan-Egyptian trinities worshipped by pagans 1000's years before Jesus Christ came to earth.

What the trinity does to people like Ruben is force them into polytheism. Note Rubens answer to my question 8/1/12, 'In your understanding of John 1:1, who is Jesus "with"? Rubens answer- 'who else but God the Father'.

Ruben has two 'God's' at John 1:1- 'the Word was God' (Jesus) who is "with" God the Father. Trinity = polytheism.
---David8318 on 8/4/12


Ruben I just wanted to say thanks for defending the truth. The truth is that Christ is eternal Son of God!
Here's some more verses to consider:
Hebrews 13:8
John 17:5 note the word "with"
Matt 27:43 the witnesses state that Christ stated that he was the Son of God, and we know that God cannot lie.
Matt 28:19
John 5:19-29
1 John 5:7 (KJV is accurate.)
Anyway, none are so blind as those who refuse to see.
---trey on 8/3/12


Ruben needs a lesson in what being a priest meant to the Israelites. Paul was writing to the Hebrews- that should be a big clue for Ruben, as the Hebrews were quite familiar with what specific role particularly the High Priest played in the life of an Israelite.

Basically, the High Priest represented the people before God, offering sacrifices and pleading for the people- Heb.5:1.

Ruben wants us all to ignore the fact that Jesus' comparison with Melchizadek had anything to do with Melchizadek being a priest. How can God represent people before God? Of course, that's non-sensical. A priest does this duty. Melchizadek did. Jesus Christ does also 'forever according to the manner of Melchizedek'- Heb.7:17.
---David8318 on 8/4/12


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'the Watchtower Societys keep silent on this (ie.Heb.7:3)'- Ruben.

This is Ruben showing how wrong and misguided he is.

What Ruben really means is that he cannot find any Watchtower references for Heb.7:3 on his trinitarian sponsored websites. He won't because the WTS uphold Jesus' priestly office as the perfect High Priest who now pleads our case before our creator, and his Father, Jehovah God Almighty- Heb.7:25.

Trinitarian warlords shield the likes of Ruben from the truth and reality of Christ's priestly office. The trinity dilutes and destroys the meaning of Christ priestly office. Added reason why the trinity is antichrist.

To put Rubens lie to rest, there are 15 individual references to Heb.7:3 by the WTS.
---David8318 on 8/4/12


Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.


---jerry6593 on 8/4/12


Warwick/Ruben, The WBTS are not the only ones who see through the "trinity" myth.
Ask any Rabbi since Judaism predates Christianity by thousands of years.
Arius was shot down by Constantine's mob,when he could see the truth,but satan wasted no time to silence him,like he wasted no time corrupting Eve!
Deut.6.4 God is "one"God unlike ,Brahma,Vishnu and Siva or Isis Horus and Set or multi personalities of Baal!
---1st_cliff on 8/4/12


'Jesus... had "neither begininng nor end"'- Ruben

This is Ruben twisting Heb.7:3 to suit his trinitarian bent.

Hebrews 7:3 misquoted by Ruben states, 'neither a beginning of days nor an end of life'. Applied to Melchizadek specifically because no one knew or could establish genealogically when Melchizadek began serving as priest, or indeed when he stopped.

If we want to apply this literally to Jesus as Ruben wants to, then as Jesus was created before the creation of the earth and sun, then Jesus does not "have a beginning of days" because like Melchizadek, it is incalculable- Pr.8:23. But as it is with reference to Jesus' priesthood, the eternal benefits of his priestly office are for us immeasurable.
---David8318 on 8/3/12


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Ruben, you are correct. Scott and David do not know what Trinitarians believe, they only know the distortions the WTS feeds them. If they question the doctrines of the WTS theocracy they will get into trouble.

Where there is Jesus there is light and freedom. Where there is Satan there is darkness and compulsion.
---Warwick on 8/3/12


In your understanding of John 1:1, who is Jesus "with"?

---David8318 on 8/

David,

Questions like the one above and remarks like does God need a God from Scott make me believe you guys have no clue of the doctine of the Trinity! To answer your question who else but God the Father
---Ruben on 8/3/12


Cliff, I believe you have it wrong. Elohim does speak of more than 1. The NT more clearly explains the Son is the God, likewise the Holy Spirit. The NT is in line with the use of the plural Elohim.

If Jesus is not God how can He tell Philip seeing Him is seeing God? Only because the Son is "..the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"

Who upholds the universe by His power? The Son. Where does the Son now sit? At the right hand of majesty. The position of absolute power, authority and equality. Who else 'sits' there by their own right?
---Warwick on 8/3/12


"You basically answer like your magazine."- Ruben.

Thank you for the complement. My 'magazine like' answer has obviously stummped you, as you are unable to refute my scriptural reasoning.

So what about Chrysostom's comments on Heb.7:3? What's your point?
---David8318 on 8/1/12

The point is he was able to comment on the scripture verse on "neither beginning of days nor end of life", while the Watchtower Societys keep silent on this.
---Ruben on 8/2/12


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2) Please re-read Hebrews 7:3 in its entirety. Isolating a tiny fragment of a verse, you can more or less make it say and mean whatever you want.

The last sentence of my previous post sums up the matter for me- "The issue is Jesus' role as High Priest, not the length of his life."
---David8318 on 8/1/12

David,

You need to read all of the verse not just the last, after all it does say "and has neither beginning of days nor end of life' we know Jesus is the priest forever but what does no beginning nor end mean?

What was true of Melchizedek in a small way is even more true of Christ in the full reality, agree?
---Ruben on 8/2/12


David8318* No Hebrews 7:3 does not say this. Having "neither beginning of days nor end of life" at Heb.7:3 is not with reference to Jesus.

Really:
Melchizedek was a type (shadow or figure) of Christ ! So if Melchizedek had " neither beginning nor end" than Jesus who is greater than Melchizedek had "neither begininng nor end" and a High priest forever!

David8318 * Unless of course Ruben believes Melchizadek is still alive and well, living a comfortable life somewhere in Israel.

I would not say Israel but Heaven, after all scripture does say " neither beginning nor end"
---Ruben on 8/2/12


Paul is saying that of Melchizadek, in connection with his 'life' as a 'priest'.

---David8318 on 8/1/12

Paul also wrote that Melchizadek had neither nor beginning nor end which would make no sense to even write unless it is a connection as while!
---Ruben on 8/2/12


David8318* 1) As previously posted, Jehovah is eternal had no beginning- Jer.10:10
("yhwh": 'Jehovah'-ASV, 'Yahweh'-Jb),

Answer my question first:

If Jhn 1:1 says In the beginning the Word was.. Does it not indicate that Jesus was already in existence at the beginning of creation?

---Ruben on 8/2/12


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David8318 :

Finally David did you read what Col 18 says " He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead " and you know he was not the first to raise from the dead, the difference of the others is he(Christ) will not die again. You can see how he is the firstborn from the dead Rev 1:17-18 " I am the first and the last, and the living one, I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. So firstborn here means pre-eminence not in an order...
---Ruben on 8/2/12


David, how ironic, you telling Ruben that making a doctrine upon a few words is meaningless.

The Son's eternality is settled by Colossians 1:16 He being Creator of everything created, not a creature. Lest you should pounce upon "through" as if this means not by Him but by God through Him, let me draw your attention to Romans 11:36 & Hebrews 2:10. In both verses (referring to God) 'through' is Gk. 'dia' meaning 'by means of, proceeding from. All Creation proceeds 'through' God and God the Son. No problem for us but your 'theology' makes you a polytheist.
---Warwick on 8/2/12


Warwick,You are the first to complain if someone takes texts out of context,
Gen.1.1 "In the beginning God (Elohim plural)created" (singular verb so translated as God) so obviously not plural in number but plural in majesty! the same as "Let US make man"
This does not explain "with" in Jn.1
---1st_cliff on 8/2/12


"You basically answer like your magazine."- Ruben.

Thank you for the complement. My 'magazine like' answer has obviously stummped you, as you are unable to refute my scriptural reasoning.

So what about Chrysostom's comments on Heb.7:3? What's your point?
---David8318 on 8/1/12


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Cliff, as I pointed out 'Ho Theos' is not used to describe God in John 1:1. Do a little research. Nonetheless we know it is the God of whom John writes.

As to "with" the Word (God) was with (God) from always, they are one. This is another mention of what we call the 'Godhead,' the same Godhead which said "Let us make man in our image" Genesis 1:26.
---Warwick on 8/1/12


Ruben-

1) As previously posted, Jehovah is eternal had no beginning- Jer.10:10
("yhwh": 'Jehovah'-ASV, 'Yahweh'-Jb), also Rev.15:3. In addition to Jo.1:1, other texts identify Jesus as 'the firstborn of all creation,' 'the beginning of the creation by God.' (Col 1:15, Re.3:14) Thus these scriptures identify the Word as Gods first creation, His Son.

In your understanding of John 1:1, who is Jesus "with"?

2) Please re-read Hebrews 7:3 in its entirety. Isolating a tiny fragment of a verse, you can more or less make it say and mean whatever you want.

The last sentence of my previous post sums up the matter for me- "The issue is Jesus' role as High Priest, not the length of his life."
---David8318 on 8/1/12


"What does Hebrews 7:3 mean when it says the Jesus has neither beginning of days nor end of life?"- Ruben.

No Hebrews 7:3 does not say this. Having "neither beginning of days nor end of life" at Heb.7:3 is not with reference to Jesus. Paul is saying that of Melchizadek, in connection with his 'life' as a 'priest'.

Unless of course Ruben believes Melchizadek is still alive and well, living a comfortable life somewhere in Israel.
---David8318 on 8/1/12


Ruben,Paul referred to Melchizadek as a type or pattern of Jesus in his priestly role because the Bible has no details about Melchizadek 'genealogy' (Heb.6:20).

David,

You basically answer like your magazine.

St Chrysostrom said this about Hebrews 7:3:

As in case of this man [Melchizedek], we know not either beginning of days, or end of life, because they have not been written, so we know [them] not in the case of Jesus , not because they have not been written, but because they do not exist. For that indeed is a type, and therefore [we say] because it is not written, but this is the reality, and therefore [we say] because it does not exist.
---Ruben on 8/1/12


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David8318*
(New World Translation) :

"In the beginning the Word was" It does not say 'In the beginning the Word came to be'

Another passage to consider is Hebrews 7:3:

He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.


Just to follow up on the above scripture vesres:

1) If Jhn 1:1 says In the beginning the Word was.. Does it not indicate that Jesus was already in existence at the beginning of creation?

2)What does Hebrews 7:3 mean when it says the Jesus has neither beginning of days nor end of life? Keep in mind he is greater than Melchizedek!
---Ruben on 8/1/12


Ruben, I believe Melchizadek was a real human, knew Abraham, had parents, perhaps even offspring. Was born naturally and died according to Paul's view at Ro.5:12.

Paul referred to Melchizadek as a type or pattern of Jesus in his priestly role because the Bible has no details about Melchizadek 'genealogy' (Heb.6:20). Jesus was similar in that he was not born in the tribe of Levi, thus had no priestly 'genealogy'. Both did not become priest through a human father, but had been 'specifically called by God' for service (Heb.5:10).

Further, Jesus did not have any successors to his priesthood. In this sense also he has no genealogy- Heb.7:24,25.

The issue is Jesus' role as High Priest, not the length of his life. That's why.
---David8318 on 8/1/12


Warwick,I appreciate your little treates on "ho Theos" but it doesn't answer the question of who ho Theos was "with" Jn.1.1
With,indicates more than one,does it not?
---1st_cliff on 8/1/12


Cliff, I was referring to Hebrews 1:8 when the Father refers to the Son saying "Your throne O God (Gk. Ho Theos) will last for ever and ever."

See also John 20:28 Where Thomas answered Jesus, calling Him "My Lord and my God." Literally The Lord of me and the God (Gk. Ho Theos) of me.

I don't believe I have given an interpretation of John 1:1 here "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Both the Son (the Word) and God are called Theos here.

As Jesus is the Creator of everything ever Created it is no stretch to call Him Theos, or Ho Theos. If the Creator isn't God that means the Creator was himself created. However that does not fit with Scripture.
---Warwick on 7/31/12


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David8318* Yes I believe 'the Word' had a beginning as Jo.1:1 teaches,

(New World Translation) :

"In the beginning the Word was" It does not say 'In the beginning the Word came to be'

Another passage to consider is Hebrews 7:3:

He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.

In fact the Witnesses Bible encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures (Vol 2, pgs 367) It explains how Melchizedek was a shadow of Christ, but does not mention how in the reality Christ has neither beginning of days nor end of life. I wonder why?
---Ruben on 7/31/12


Blessing Brother Joseph,
Praise God, In/By His Word (Ysha/Jesus Christ) -- He is truly defined,
although, man may fall short, His Word never does.

Only Gods Word is Truth, spoken and written.
Ysha/Jesus defined: God is Savior,
Christ: anointed
Immanuel defined: God with us

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Josh5:13-14,Jn 14:6
Praise God for His Mercy and Grace,
Shalom

---char on 7/31/12


Warwick, one problem with your interpretation of Jn.1 it says that the Logos was "WITH" ho Theos!
How does that work???
Can you be "with" yourself, like ** me,myself and I ???

** A trinity perhaps??
---1st_cliff on 7/31/12


Char, Amen to your all of your posts on this subject. All of them are consistent with my thoughts concerning this subject exactly, in their entirety. Phil I agree completely with this statement, "Mankind has no faculties to apprehend God. He is incomprehensible. His Son, His material expression of Himself, reveals His God to us and points us ever towards the Father. He does ever the will of His God and Father." Amen. And the Father has granted His chosen access into that same mind. 1Cr 2:16
---joseph on 7/31/12


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Pros: [Accusative] accusation as God
Jn 1:1The Word was God:
The Word:
(The) being the Article, designates the Word as the (subject).
The order of the words for placing emphasis on the predicate, while the Word is the (subject).

was God:
God is without the Article which point toward understanding - God as Infinite, Timeless, Perfect, Almighty
The Invisible God( Who is Spirit), Spoke, His Word comes/came out from within (En) Him and points toward Mankind, to return-point back/towards WithinSpirit, hence, no beginning-no end---0--. His is [Exist]complete cycle-- Timeless.Is55:11, Is 45:23
---char on 7/30/12


Pros: indicates only direction and Tendency/bent/inclination/predisposition/turned
Three cases: Genitive, Dative,[Accusative]
And signifies (to) or (towards) implying motion onward
General meaning with the three cases is the motive as in consideration (with Genitive)
In addition to anythingas an act (with Dative)
With a view to anything---as an end [with Accusative]
[Accusative case: identification of the direct object ( also accuses motion toward)]
Jn 10:22-39 Accusative ,Within, dwelling, Remain
33[...]but for blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
38[...]that the Father is in me, and I in him.

By Thought, God spoke/speaks, By Spirit moved/moves
In Spirit and In-truth
---char on 7/30/12


Phil, you are correct 'Ho Theos' is the title given to 'the God.' And as it is given to Jesus He is the God. I don't believe I said this was Jesus' name.

Originally in Greek the one God was called Theos, but over time it came to mean a God, one of many gods. In NT times it became necessary to call the one God 'Ho Theos', as Jesus the Creator God and Redeemer is called.
---Warwick on 7/30/12


Warwick on 7/29/12 "Scripture tells us Jesus is fully God. See Hebrews ch. 1 where He is called the God (Gk. Ho Theos)"

2C 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

theos tou aionos

god of this age.

Satan.

You reason that theos means God the Father or His Son. It does not.

Theos is not a name

It is a title.
---Phil on 7/29/12


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Greek:
The Word is the subject-Was God. For the Logos then was, and the aions were prepared by Him (Heb1:2,11:3
Creation not mention until vs3. En=within, which is why vs 2 states The same=This [Word], or He. vs3 all things, Referring to the infinite detail or creation, were made=came into being.
God spoke


Language pre-babel (confusion)

Before God opened up His mouth and spoke, there was silence...Aleph

Gods Word comes from "Within Him" -- "Within Him" still equates to "Himself".

Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, which is both "I am that I am" and "I
will be what I will be".
Time did not exist before creation, although Elohyim did. It is Time Elohyim spoke Into.
---char on 7/29/12


---Smitty on 7/28/12
It is not hard to say someone is in error. It is another thing to prove it Smitty. You seek to recommend yourself without evidence.

G4314 pros pros
a strengthened form of G4253,
a preposition of direction, forward to. Used by Holy Spirit 295 times in Scripture, denoting direction.

G3326 meta met-ah'
a primary preposition (often used adverbially),
properly, denoting accompaniment. Used 474 times by Holy Spirit. It means with.

En pros ton theon
Was toward the Deity.

You are free to refute me all day long, but the word of God stands.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
---Phil on 7/29/12


The Word Of "God" came from within Him. How could that Word from the beginning be "toward" Him?
---joseph on 7/29/12

The was no beginning without the Logos. The Logos, the express visible image of the Invisible God, is the creator of all things. All things were created through an by the Logos of God John 1:3

No man has seen God at any time. Jn 1:18

The Son, Who is in the bosom (heart) of God declares Him.

Mankind has no faculties to apprehend God. He is incomprehensible. His Son, His material expression of Himself, reveals His God to us and points us ever towards the Father. He does ever the will of His God and Father.

He has ever been "toward" God.
---Phil on 7/29/12


Phil, I agree the literal translation of "pros ton theon" is, "toward the God".

It is clear to me that the understanding of being 'toward' is in the sense of "being ready for service". Or as in Hebrews 2:17 (KJV) where "pros ton theon" again appears is rendered "in things pertaining to God".

If were to say, 'I am with Phil', I could mean a physical position alongside Phil or 'with' in the sense of 'being ready for service' with Phil (neither gives the idea that I and Phil are one and the same).

"...the Word was with (or 'toward') God" in the sense of being ready to carry out whatever service God had in store for him. Indeed, the Word was with God.
---David8318 on 7/29/12


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/[...]The Word Of "God" came from within Him[...]--joseph on 7/29/12/--Understood, Amen.

//Word of God Has No beginning or End,The spoken word reveals the invisible thought, the Living Word reveals the invisible Godvs18,Jn14(all)1Jn5(all) And theses three agree.

Jn1:1Was:En (all-ready pre-existent)vs3
En: Be or Remain, Being or Remaining,Within.The idea of Rest and Continuance

Matt 10:16Behold, I send you forth as sheep (in) [En] the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matt 14:2And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist, he is risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves (in) [En] him.
Gen 1:1Brshyth: Inbeginning...//
Shalom
---char on 7/29/12


Scripture tells us Jesus is fully God. See Hebrews ch. 1 where He is called the God (Gk. Ho Theos) and all the angels are commanded to worship Him. Colossians 1:16 shows God the Son to be Creator of everything ever created.

Also fully man Hebrews ch. 2.(made like his brothers in every way vs.17) That He had limitations being in a human body on earth is no news to the Bible student. But that He is eternal God is also no news to those who trust His word.
---Warwick on 7/29/12


"The word was toward God", is the correct rendering of John 1:1, and not "with God".-Phil on 7/28/12
Phil perhaps you need to "backpeddle":o)
The Word Of "God" came from within Him. How could that Word from the beginning be "toward" Him?
---joseph on 7/29/12


Phil "the word was toward god" is peculiar to A.E.Knoch in his New Testament translation which you use. He never learned Greek formally, and contrary to his claims his translation is no more accurate than any other.
---Smitty on 7/28/12


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Everything has a beginning and everything has an ending.
---Smitty on 7/28/12


Yes I believe 'the Word' had a beginning as Jo.1:1 teaches, and is not Almighty God Jehovah who is eternal having no beginning-David8318 on 7/28/12

That you are able to define the relationship between the Father and Son is welcome. False teaching concerning the One true God has obscured Christ's glory as the only Begotten. You magnigfy His name, honoring the Son as the Father Jn 5:23

The Lord has always pointed the way to the Father as God. He never claimed Himself so, even though He created all things as God's Expression, or logos.

"The word was toward God", is the correct rendering of John 1:1, and not "with God".
---Phil on 7/28/12


John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Jhn 14:6a Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life..
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth,
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The eternal internal Word of God begotten.
---micha9344 on 7/28/12


Hi Micha, you ask 'Are you saying God had to "create" his Word?'

Can I first ask where in John 1:1 does it refer to the Word as "his Word"? How do you understand 'the Word' at John 1:1? Who or what do you believe 'the Word' to be?

I believe 'the Word' at Jo.1:1 to be the pre-human Jesus Christ in his heavenly position 'with God'. As Jo.1:14 states, 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...' (ASV).

Yes I believe 'the Word' had a beginning as Jo.1:1 teaches, and is not Almighty God Jehovah who is eternal having no beginning- Jer.10:10 ("yhwh": 'Jehovah'-ASV, 'Yahweh'-Jb), also Rev.15:3.

Thus the reason why Jesus Christ did not know future details only his Father Jehovah knew (Mt.24:36).
---David8318 on 7/28/12


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Hi Glen,
You have words in your thought before you express them written, verbal, or otherwise, correct?
Now apply this to the Eternal God, who needs no time to think, His words were already there-always-eternal, as was His Power and Wisdom.
God expresses these through His Son, the Word begotten, not created, for God would have to think then, and His Spirit, ever present, for God is Spirit.
Hi David,
...As Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Re 15:3), the Word's being with God from 'the beginning' must refer to the beginning of Jehovah's creative works...-David8318 on 7/25/12
Are you saying God had to "create" his Word?
I disagree with your conclusions from misguided 3rd century interpretations of scripture.
---micha9344 on 7/28/12


\\What or when do you think is the "beginning" of the son of God?\\

What do you mean by beginning?

Suppose that 30 years ago, you married a 20 year old woman.

You could say that the beginning of your wife was 50 years ago, when she first existed. But she was not your wife yet.

In this sense, the Son of God had no beginning. But He was not the Son yet.

But you could also say that the begninning of your wife was 30 years ago, when you married her and she BECAME your wife.

In this sense, Christ BECAME the Son as His baptism, which prefigured His suffering.
---James_L on 7/28/12


GOD said," let there be Light"
Jesus said," i am the Light"
this is good enough for my simple belief :)
---kevin5443 on 7/27/12


Eternity is a concept that fires the imagination but doesn't explain anything.
---Smitty on 7/26/12


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\\Does beginning mean from creation, or an eternal beginning?\\

"Eternal beginning" is meaningless, as only that which is trapped in time can have a beginning. "Eternal," by definition, is outside of time.

\\Does the beginning AND the "end"
refer to the son as well as the father?\\

It certainly refers to the Son in Revelation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/26/12


I guess i should rephrase the question a bit

Does beginning mean from creation, or an eternal beginning?

Does the beginning AND the "end"
refer to the son as well as the father?

If the son is the "end" (which could only be eternal), then that would surely mean that he is ahead of time, knowing everything that happens in the future

Otherwise the beginning i think, would have to refer to creation
---glen on 7/26/12


For how many more millennia will people be arguing about this, and condemning their opponents for not agreeing with them?
---Smitty on 7/25/12


God is 100% God and 100% man. God knew everything that would happen before the foundations of the world. God is the Word and the Word was always with us. God is all knowing and He is everywhere at the same time. He knows the hairs on our heads so that makes God Holy and all knowing.
---shira4368 on 7/25/12


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\\Cluny, Some time ago you told me Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
So "not knowing in His human nature" must mean He was NOT 100% God at that time....please explain!\\

Non sequituur.

God does not hunger or grow weary, but in His human nature the Incarnate Logos did both, without ceasing to be fully divine at the same time.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/25/12


It says He was in the beginning. But it does not say He started to exist at that beginning.

Yes, Jesus said He did not know when He would return. So, ones argue this means He can't be God if He's not all-knowing.

But knowing does not make you able to love. You can be loving without knowing everything. "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8 & 16). Jesus can be love without knowing details of history.

A computer can have all its knowledge, though different parts of the computer do not have all that knowledge > each part is the computer, but not all of it. Jesus is God, but not all of Him . . . specialized with knowledge for the loving He does.
---willie_c: on 7/25/12


Cluny, Some time ago you told me Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
So "not knowing in His human nature" must mean He was NOT 100% God at that time....please explain!
---1st_cliff on 7/25/12


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