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Was Adam A Perfect Person

Some suggest that Adam was made perfect, does perfectness fail? How does it fail if it is perfect? Give Scripture to support your view.

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 ---Mark_V. on 7/30/12
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francis, both of you are arguing for no good reason. "Very good" is very good. Then you say,

"atthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"

Can you be perfect? Are you perfect? Let me help you with this passage. Christ sets an unattainable standard. This sums up what the law itself demanded (James 2:10). Thou this standard is impossible to meet, God could not lover it without compromising His own perfection. He who is Perfect could not set an imperfect standard of righteouness. And here is the marvelous truth of the gospel, is that Christ has met this standard on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21)
---Mark_V. on 8/8/12


Not only Adam, but Lucifer was made "perfect" (blameless, upright) before he chose to sin & (as a result) become imperfect before Holy God. (Ezekiel 28:15) Everything God made (Genesis 1) was "very good" (pleasing ~ perfect) to God.
---Leon on 8/8/12


Seg, I asked a question, for good reason and you assume offence was intended. Not so.

You plainly misstated my beliefs.What you have written is, in my opinion, a lie. I asked for a apology to see if you are man enough, and Christian enough to do so. I have my answer.

My mistake You wrote Job, I read Noah! But the situation is much the same. Both were men who followed God "a man who fears God and shuns evil" Job 1:8. Job is praised by God for his saving faith. Nothing here suggests Job was created perfect as were Adam, and Satan. For much the same reasons your reference to Job is not relevant to the topic.

There is no point continuing this debate as you will not accept what Scripture says.
---Warwick on 8/8/12


francis, you might want to read:
Luke 7:40-50
---TheSeg on 8/7/12
Luke 7:40-50 says nothing about Adam or Lucifer being created. It is about a woman who admired jesus for whathe had doen for her.

Fact is the bible says that Lucifer was created perfect and was perfect until he sinned, and Adam was created in the image of God.
Meaning that Adam was created without sin, perfect.
---francis on 8/7/12


What you think you can offend and not be offended?
And yes, if you believe an apology is required, then do so.


Adam and Satan were made perfect(no not perfect, very good)

Being made perfect by God, whose works are always perfect.
Is God:
Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ecc_3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.


Do you acknowledge your comment regarding Noah is not relevant??
What comment about Noah??
---TheSeg on 8/7/12




Seg, first address your misrepresentation of me. You know what I have written but said "He and other believe they must be perfect." Show me where I have said mankind (as opposed to Adam) was made perfect. If you cannot an apology is required.

I have continually said Adam and Satan were made perfect being made by God whose works are all perfect. If you are correct this verse should say some or most of His works are perfect.

Since Adam's sin mankind lives under the curse imposed by God. To imagine we are perfect is ludricous, against what Scriprure says and against the witness of our eyes.

Do you acknowledge your comment regarding Noah is not relevant, as Scripture does not say he was made perfect?
---Warwick on 8/7/12


francis, you might want to read:
Luke 7:40-50


Again Warwick, I dont reject Scripture!
Just your, understanding of it!

(I have never said man is perfect.)
Isnt that what this is all about?
Didnt you say Adam the man was created Perfect?

When God himself called him very good!
Then turn and say I give it to God? I just love that!
And dont misunderstand I am not fighting with you.
You are fighting with Gods word. Not mine!
God bless you!
And francis!
---TheSeg on 8/7/12


Seg, See Hebrews 11:7-Noah gained righteousness by faith, by Gods grace.

I questioned you because you reject Scripture, working hard against it. You claim offence because of a question, then commit an offence against me "He and other believe they must be perfect", which is deceit. More reason to question your Christianity. I have never said man is perfect,(we are fallen) but that Scripture says all Gods works are perfect, therefore Adam and Satan fell from initial perfection because of sin.

In rejecting the restoration you reject Scripture. Read Revelation 21:4, this speaks of the sufferings of fallen man, post Adam's sin. The former things which will pass away in the restored new heaven and new earth.
---Warwick on 8/7/12


francis
Did job have any sins?
The LORD called him a perfect and an upright man.
Because you said, Perfection in God's eves is being without SIN!
---TheSeg on 8/6/1

Are you now moving to Job. have you realized that Lucifer as perfect from the very day on which he was created, and remained perfect until iniquity was found in him?

Can we settle this before going on to Job?
atthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
---francis on 8/7/12


Mark_V, you see the way Warwick asks me, Are you a Christian?
This is not really asking me! Its more like sentencing me for not agreeing with him.
Yes it did offend me, because how can someone profess, Christ!
If they do not believe Christ is the first begotten Son of God?

He and other believe they must be perfect.
Not really understanding the gospel.

Even by saying all must be restored!
Again not understanding that which was from the beginning! Was, is and will-be with God!
There was never a need to restore it, but only the need to tell us about it.
The glory that was with the father from the beginning.
Joh_17:5,Joh_17:24 for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/7/12




Warwick, take it easy. No one is trying to sabotage anything. Concerning what Micha said, it was in response to the answer that "The Seg" gave you on (8/2/12). Concerning the sin of Adam.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/12


MODERATOR, in a post Michael (Micha) quoted Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep..." I did not understand the relevance of this quote to the topic in hand so asked for an explanation. Four times I have posed this question but you refuse to post it! In itself it is not so important but has become so because of your refusal. May I respectfully ask you to do the right thing and post it, or have the transparency and integrity to explain why you have rejected this? Is this too much to ask?
---Warwick on 8/6/12


francis
Did job have any sins?
The LORD called him a perfect and an upright man.
Because you said, Perfection in God's eves is being without SIN!

Warwick
Can anything be made perfect, without Christ and The Holy Spirit of God?

You guys see how the lord clearly said, a perfect and an upright man!
No possible misunderstanding here!
But you must answer, did he have sin and was he perfect?

I would like an answer from both of you.
Thanks
---TheSeg on 8/6/12


Mark, I do not know if Seg is a Christian. Has he ever said he is? Maybe I assumed he was. But he rejects any and all Scripture on this gospel issue prefering his opinons. Is this Christian like?

I am also concerned about the lengths you are going to prove God does not create perfectly. Scripture says all his works are perfect Deuteronomy 32:4-you reject this. It says Satan was perfect in all his ways until sin was found in him-you also reject this.

God says He made Adam "very good" (whose "very good" are we considering?), not man who makes nothing perfect but God whose every work is perfect. He made Adam "in His own Image" but you still insist Adam was made flawed. Bizarre!
---Warwick on 8/6/12


His ways were perfect. The passage say,
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways" The word "Ways" is "Derekh" which is a noun and is derived from "darak) it means.. course way of life,.
That is why the Bible does not say that God created satan in, his being, perfect. Only God is altogether Perfect.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/12
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

"from the day that thou wast created" meaning he was created perfect, and only after he sinned was he not perfect
---francis on 8/6/12
---francis on 8/6/12


Warwick, you know I love you, but we were discussing godly Scripture and the interpretation of the passages. Not adding anything. Your question to the Seg, whether he is Christian is very wrong, it offends me because you must think the same of me, because I don't agree with you either. Like we have to think like you to be Christain. Were not arguing the deity of Christ or God but of man and satan. But let me say, If God created man and satan perfect, then God must not be so perfect Himself if what He created perfect failed. Why do you think that Jesus Christ was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin, before the foundation of the world? (1 Peter 1:20). Because He knew they would fail. He knew they were not perfect. Unless you think He didn't know.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/12


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At question here is the definition of "ways" No, it's not!
But whether Satan was created perfect or just created, Rom_9:11!
Not the way he was after he was created.
---TheSeg on 8/5/12

If this was not sad, it would be laughable.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

"from the day that thou wast created" meaning he was created perfect
---francis on 8/6/12


Warwick
I do, I just love the way you think.
Like when you say: Seg, by now you know Scripture says all God's works are perfect.
But, lets stop right here!

Now, can anything be made perfect, without Christ and The Holy Spirit of God?
Now, if you answer this truthfully, you will have your answers.

But, it seems to me, you forget God the Father. Why!
Because you seem to think God didnt know he was going to send Christ and Spirit.
You think something can be made perfect, without The Son and The Holy Spirit.
You as well as others think creation was competed in the beginning.
Fully well knowing his Christ and Spirit are here!

Am I a Christian?
God bless you
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/6/12


francis/Warwick/aka, when I said he was adding a new meaning not in Scripture, it was because he was adding to the word what was not meant to be added. You guys want to make satan perfect being, its ok by me but he was not perfect in his being. His ways were perfect. The passage say,
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways" The word "Ways" is "Derekh" which is a noun and is derived from "darak) it means a going, a walk, journey, way, path, road, course way of life, lot in life, worship.
Most offen it refers to the actions and behavior of men, whether wicked or not. That is why the Bible does not say that God created satan in, his being, perfect. Only God is altogether Perfect.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/12


Seg, by now you know Scripture says all God's works are perfect. Creation is one of God's works and in God's terms (not falible man's) He says He made Adam in His image, and very good. For you to claim God whose works are perfect makes anything imperfect is to contradict Scripture and call God a liar. You fight so hard to prove that which is antiScriptural. I still say you do so for nonBiblical denominational beliefs.

Likewise Scripture says Satan was created "perfect in all his ways" and once again you reject Scripture. Are you a Christian?

I have shown you, from Scripture that the whole of creation was cursed by Adam's sin. Again you reject Scripture, preferring your own ideas. You are becoming ridiculous.
---Warwick on 8/5/12


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What did francis add Mark?
---aka on 8/5/12


Hamid, I didn't assume you were Muslim. Nor did I mention Muslim or Islam but you understood. Some religions command opponents be enslaved or killed. Christ commands we love and pray for those who oppose or hate us.

As to the Crusade the European crusaders were attacking the Muslims who were themselves invaders of the holy land. Invaders who had closed the land to Christian pilgrim's. The Muslim invaders were acting true to their religion however the Crusaders behaviour was often anti-Christian. I trust you comprehend the difference.

God bless.
---Warwick on 8/5/12


At question here is the definition of "ways" No, it's not!
But whether Satan was created perfect or just created, Rom_9:11!
Not the way he was after he was created.

To be clear!
You on the "Was Adam Created Perfect blog" Speaking for God said:
Perfection in God's eves is being without SIN
Both Adam and lucifer were created perfect, without sin.
francis on 7/29/12

Now:
Rom_3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
Rom_5:12!

Job_1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Perfection in God's eyes!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/5/12


Mark you are attempting to play word games with Francis. Scripture says Satan was made perfect in all his ways. What part of "all" don't you understand? Of course Satan was made perfect as he was made by God who is "the Rock, his works are perfect" Deuteronomy 32:4 Does this mean some of His works are imperfect?

I cannot comprehend the passion you and others demonstrate in your desire to show God creates imperfectly. That Adam was made perfect does not mean he was made equal to God, but that he was made a perfect man. Just as the ant was made a perfect ant. Or do you imagine God made ants with inbuilt genetic faults?
---Warwick on 8/5/12


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you said now,
"Lucifer was PERFECT in all his ways ( character, habits, nature) until he sinned" where does it say that? you added that to the passage.
---Mark_V. on 8/5/12

At question here is the definition of " ways."

Ways: Adv- course direction or manner.
Ways: noun, characteristic or usual manner
Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: habits, conduct, customs, behavior, traditions

Used in a sentence: Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy behavior from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
---francis on 8/5/12


Warwick sir you have not read about crusades or religious wars in europe? also please not mistake me for muslim. Thank you.
---Hamid on 8/5/12


Warwick, you said Im ignoring or changing things.

You-everything was created perfect.
God-Gen_1:31called everything very good.

You-Adam was created perfect, because Adam was made in God image and likeness.
God-Isa_46:9there is none like me.

You-Satan was created perfect.
God-Eze_28:15Thou wast(perfect in thy ways)(from the day)that thou wast created.

You-All of creation, was curse by God.
God-Gen_3:17cursed is the ground for thy sake.

You-all of Creation will be restored.
God-Rev_21:5Behold, I make all things new.
Write: for these words are true and faithful.

But, your right Warwick, I am, ignoring or changing what it says!
Warwick, where is Christ right now, you know?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/4/12


Hamid fanatical Christians some of us may be but the difference is we do not feel the need to kill those with whom we disagree.

Revelation 3:16 "So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." The Lord Jesus prefers those who are cold over lukewarm believers, most likely because the 'cold' are honest in their rejection. While the lukewarm are those who claim to be Christian but in their lukewarmness give no proof of it. Ultimately He prefers those who are hot for Him. But Christian heat may run to strong words but we are commanded to love and pray for those who dislike or even hate us Matthew 5:44.
---Warwick on 8/5/12


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francis, I believe the Bible not you. You have been wrong so many times. you said now,
"Lucifer was PERFECT in all his ways ( character, habits, nature) until he sinned" where does it say that? you added that to the passage. Show me where it says (character, habits, nature)? like Saturday Sabbath, you will not find it. You know why?
Because it is not true. Did God make a mistake and created a creature perfect, and that creature failed? I don't think so. It "was good" for God what He created, for the purpose He intended for all of us. We were expected to fail, the reason Jesus was "foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" ( 1 Peter 1:20).
---Mark_V. on 8/5/12


Some suggest that Adam was made perfect, does perfectness fail? How does it fail if it is perfect? Give Scripture to support your view.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/12
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was PERFECT in all his ways ( character, habits, nature) until he sinned

Adam ebing created IN THE IMAGE OF GOD was no less perfect than God, until iniquity was found in him

You can either believe what is IN the bible or make up your own story

If you think that perfection means not being ABLE to sin you do not yet know the bible, Jesus was very capable fo sin, he choose not to sin although he was tempted to sin
---francis on 8/4/12


Seg, as I pointed out, backing it with Scripture, Satan was personally cursed. However as OT and NT Scriptures show God holds Adam responsible, for the curse. Acts 3 :21 says God will restore everything. 'Restore' meaning 'complete restoration.' Revelation 21:1 spells it out "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. See also Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, 2 Peter 3: 10,13. Why does God create a new heaven and a new earth? Because the former one was corrupted by sin. Verse 4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

This is the gospel.
---Warwick on 8/4/12


I see some christians fanatic like some muslims.
---Hamid on 8/4/12


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You do not get your view from what Scripture says, only by ignoring or changing what it says.
If you say so!

Warwick, only by ignoring or changing what it says can your ways make sense.
You just finish saying:
Genesis_2:17 is God's warning, which Adam chose to ignore(this part is true)
bringing the curse of death, disease and suffering upon all Creation.(this part is not)

Is heaven part of creation? Yes right!
So this death, disease and suffering, is in heaven too, right?

So, when Christ told one of the malefactors, Luk 23:43!
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Why didn't he tell him, by the way, you can get sick, suffer and die there?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/4/12


Trav, you are a curious mixture of envy and arrogance. There is no need for you to be envious, and arrogance is an ugly trait.
---Warwick on 8/2/12

Sunny...envious you'd like to think we all are of ya. Truth hit a sore spot with you, when it happens politicians and preachers get loud and angerrry....every time.
Arrogant? Perhaps, with "giantego's". Prayerfully never with a lamb.
David arrogantly,laid a giant out with a stone, stones of scripture lets the air out of the doctrinal egogiants I confront.
Psalm 25:10
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
---Trav on 8/4/12


Seg, if you read the quotes I have given you will see the curse was instituted by God because of what Adam did. Satan was personally cursed but the creation was cursed because of Adam.

Romans 8:19-23 concerns Adam. See Romans. 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,...."

Genesis 2:17 is God's warning, which Adam chose to ignore bringing the curse of death, disease and suffering upon all Creation. But it will be restored to its created perfection "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away" Revelation 21:4
---Warwick on 8/4/12


Seg, you do not get your view from what Scripture says, only by ignoring or changing what it says. That is why I believe you are defending a (strange) denominational doctrine. You ignore any inconvent Scripture, just as the JW's do.

You wrote "Seg, you wrote "All his works are perfect, but not until he said they are! He hasn't!" You still haven't told me what this is supposed to mean.
---Warwick on 8/4/12


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Warwick, What ever happen in heaven before Adam sinned, had all ready happened! Like it or not this is your Romans 8:19-23.

In Gen 2:17, God told Adam:
For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This was sad by God before Adam Sinned. Therefore is not part of any curse!

Sin entered the world because Adam sinned.
And through the sin, death! Rom 5:12!
Death was in the sin, not in any curse.
So by one man came death, 1Co 15:21!

Just so we're clear God never curse Adam.
Cursed is the ground for thy sake. Gen 3:17!

The King James Bible!

Relevance, your perfection!
There is none (even) like me. God!
Perfection is in the completed work. Joh_17:4!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/4/12


To be clear in Rom_8:23 is written "And not only they!"
But it's more like "not only that!" and continues:
But ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In Rom_8:10 it says:
The body is dead because of sin!
Not because of Adam and not because of a curse ground.
Because of sin!

Did you ever think of why God will shake the heaven?
You think Sin and disobedience is only here on earth?
This didn't start here. It started long before Adam sinned.

And will continue until the Sons of God are standing with their Father!
Almost as if it was foreordained or something!
---TheSeg on 8/4/12


Seg, you wrote "All his works are perfect, but not until he said they are! He hasn't!" What in the world do you think this means? I have no idea!

You have read Genesis chapter 3 and you say all God cursed was the ground? You jest!

You have read Romans e.g. 8:19-23 and you do not see mention of the whole creation suffering under the curse? Surely you are trying to play some foolish game?

You have read Romans 5:12, and 1 Corinthians 15:21,22 and you see no consequence for the world in Adam's sin?

What Bible are you reading?

The quotes you have given, how are they relevant?
---Warwick on 8/4/12


Ther is absolutely zero references in the Bible about the world being "resotred" or "renewed."
Here is what the Bible says about the world.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
-Even before the fall?
Heb 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
-Removing things made?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.
-First Earth?
No restoration there!!
---micha9344 on 8/4/12


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Warwick, all you've written I can't find "God curse all of creation" Just the ground!
But maybe I just didn't see it?


Gen_1:26-27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

Isa_46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else, (I am God, and there is none like me,)
In the image of God created he him!

Isa_46:10 announcing formerly the last things (before their taking place, and are completed.)
And I said, All my counsel will stand, and all as much as I have planned I will do,

All his works are perfect, but not until he said they are!
He hasn't!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/3/12


Seg, thanks for that.br>

Romans 8:20-22 clearly tells us the whole creation groans under the curse, but will be set free.

Acts 3:21 "whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago."

Revelation 22:3 "No longer will there be anything accursed,...."

21:4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

But there is no restoration? You jest.

I note you fail to give any Scripture to support your view. Our opinions are worthless against the word of God.
---Warwick on 8/3/12


God makes everything perfect
He also gives all sentient beings free will - to love God is a choice
Therefore, Lucifer and all other angels, along with Adam and Eve, were created perfectly
Due to sin - and how disobedience came into Lucifer's heart I don't know - we are now born into sin
The Gospel's message is that although we are alive after sin entered this world, we can choose to be God's friend by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus in our place - love and obey Him, to eventually live forever
---Fleur on 8/3/12


Seg, if you read and understood Scripture you would know the gospel's foundation is that creation was made perfect by God whose works are perfect because He is perfect. Genesis ch. 3 recounts man's fall into sin. First Eve then Adam. The bad news.

Verses 14,15-God's curse upon Satan. V16-God's curse upon Eve. V's 17,-19 are different showing both Adam and Creation was cursed for his sin. See also Romans 5:12,14 ch.8.

All bad news!

1 Corinthians 15:21,22 shows death (part of the curse) came through Adam while resurrection of the dead comes through Jesus. See also Acts 3:21 Romans 6:23, 1 Corinthians 15: 45-48. The Good News! Argue with God, not me.

Fall(bad news)restoration(Good News Gospel) Restored to what?
---Warwick on 8/3/12


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Warwick, I want to say I am sorry!
I read:
Scripture does say God is perfect and consequently "his work is perfect"
As:
Scripture (doesnt) say God is perfect and consequently "his work is perfect"
Please forgive me this!

You ask:
When Creation is restored to what state is it restored?
I said it wont be restored!

If you read John 13-17, over and over and over again!
This question might be answer.
I dont know if it will.

Thats between you and God!
God bless you, Warwick

I still like the way you said:
I give it to God, that all his ways are perfect
And they are, in God own time.
Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/3/12


Yes, Warwick one of us is very confused!
I can only go by what you write.

Was satan created, so he part of creation.
on 8/1/12 you wrote
(The bad news is that Adam sinned causing the whole Creation to suffer, until now, under the curse.)
I dont know Warwick, are my eyes deceiving me?
Did you write this or not?

Now youre implying God is not perfect, that only his works are.
But, Satan, Adam and Eve are perfect!

How you say:
As I said some time ago I sense a denominational doctrine overriding your trust in what Scripture clearly says.
Relating to or characteristic of a particular religious denomination.

I have no particular religious denomination.
Though I believe there all very good.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/3/12


Again you are the one saying it will be restored!

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard

See if you can believe this, for it is written!
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
---TheSeg on 8/3/12


Seg, you are confused, and appear to have little idea of the gospel, as Scripture explains it. You imagine Satan fell into disobedience and then caused Eve and Adam to likewise fall, and Satan's fall is Adam's fault? Satan's approach to Eve was one of disobedience before she disobeyed God. How can step 2 precede step 1?

Scripture does say God is perfect and consequently "his work is perfect...." Deuteronomy 32:4. But you will not believe this, imagining God made Adam imperfect. As I said some time ago I sense a denominational doctrine overriding your trust in what Scripture clearly says.

There is nothing to forgive. You have made your choice.

When Creation is restored to what state is it restored?
---Warwick on 8/3/12


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Warwick, if you want to believe the whole Creation was perfect before Adam sinned. Isn't that really up to you?

Scripture try to makes clear God is the only one who is perfect!
You're saying Adam sin caused everything, is saying Satan fall was Adam fault.

Your reason!
Because God is perfect, therefore everything is perfect.
Yet, God never called the whole of creation perfect!
He said, very good! But you say this mean, perfect! OK

You were perfect-blameless (from) the day you were created.
Mean the same as, you were created perfect! OK

I just want you to try and understand why I cant believe you.
So, please do try to forgive me.
Rom_14:5Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/2/12


Seg, Genesis says God made His Creation "very Good" 1:31.This by the Creator whose ways and thoughts are higher than ours-Isaiah 55:9. Whose "works are perfect Deuteronomy 32:4, who made Satan perfect-Ezekiel 28:15 but you believe Satan was always sinful? You argue with Scripture. Now Creation groans (Romans ch.8) awaiting liberation. Acts 3:21 Jesus will restore all things. Revelation 22:3 there will be no more curse. Revelation 21:4 there will be no more death, mourning, nor crying, nor pain! The Greek behind the English 'restore' in Acts 3:21 means "Complete restoration" "to put back into a former state." Creation will be restored to its original glory and perfection. That is the Good News of the gospel!
---Warwick on 8/2/12


He was tempted, and ate the fruit - hense, NO.
---AnnieM on 8/2/12


Ok Warwick I'm sorry. I didn't read that part.
The whole Creation being made perfect!
Exactly where is that written again?

What do you mean it wasn't written that way?
Oh, I see! Than this is just your opinion, again.

And one more thing we dont agree on.
Where does it say the world will be restored?
To the way it was before Adam sinned?
Exactly where is that, written?

Take a good look at the way things were, before Adam sinned!
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
Your saying we're going back to this!

Restored mean putting everything back to the way it was.
Well then, it's not restored, is it?
Rev_21:5
---TheSeg on 8/1/12


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Trav, you are a curious mixture of envy and arrogance. There is no need for you to be envious, and arrogance is an ugly trait.
---Warwick on 8/2/12


Warwick, you ask for something not in Scripture. What is in Scripture for Adam is "very good". Very good is not perfect. Why do you want to add to Scripture what is not there? If Adam was perfect like God, something is really wrong. Like Adam God makes choices, but they are always righteous. Adam choices were not righteous. If he was perfect his choices would always be righteous. There was a flaw in him or else he would not have chosen to disobey and sin. The flaw was he was not perfect. He was perfect in his ways, walking with God, the same as satan. They had not sinned yet.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/12


Seg, Scripture, as I spelled out says the gospel is founded on the whole Creation being made perfect then cursed by God." There is no other foundation given in Scripture.

The bad news is that Adam sinned causing the whole Creation to suffer, until now, under the curse. The Good News (the gospel) is that God did not leave it there forever but came as man and died upon the cross to overturn the curse. I can't imagine, with all I have written that you would think I could leave Jesus out of this!


Why would you think being made man, lower than the angels, means He was not perfect? God made ants and being a perfect maker, made them perfect. Or were thay made with flaws also?
---Warwick on 8/1/12


Trav, I quote Scripture "when it is necessary".
You sometimes quote Scriptures (e.g. Deut32:8) which appear to have nothing at all to do with the topic in discussion.
---Warwick on 7/28/12

This statement above keeps you from finding a sheep. Your opinion is more worthy than witnessing scriptures. The opposite is true. GOD draws those he wishes to draw. The good news is not confirmed by your opinions or french fried race track glory's.
Each verse in scripture such as the one I pointed to has a witness.....to those that seek and find them. Israel finds theirs and you yours.

Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
---Trav on 8/1/12


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Warwick, I do hear you.
But even now youre saying:
The gospel is founded on the whole Creation being made perfect then cursed by God.
Isnt that the bible?

Isnt the gospel founded on Christ, The Son of God?
Mat_1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mar_1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Luk_1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Joh_1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And even he was made a little lower than the angels!
Truly perfect!
---TheSeg on 8/1/12


Warwick,
Right premise, wrong conclusion.
You are stuck on this "flaw" thing.
Do you believe God can make something "incomplete"?
If Adam did not have "complete" knowledge, only "sufficient" knowledge, then Adam would have to rely on his faith for his decisions. He made the wrong one.
God could have given him everything he needed to know to make the right decisions, but where would be the faith?
It sounds more like "programming" to me if God would have made him "perfect."
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep...
John 9:3...
God creates things the way He wants them created...
---micha9344 on 8/1/12


Seg, the gospel is founded on the whole Creation being made perfect then cursed by God (Romans 8:22) for Adam's disobedience. But the creation will be restored (Acts 3:21) the curse lifted (Revelation 22:3). There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain Revelation 21:4. This is why Scripture talks of things being restored. Restored back to its original perfect state. This is the big picture of the gospel of our Creator, and Redeemer Jesus Christ.

Why any Christian would imagine that what the perfect God (whose "works are perfect Deuteronomy 32:4) calls (in His terms)"very good" is less than perfect astounds me.

I suspect there are denominational doctrines behind this downgrading of the creation of God.
---Warwick on 8/1/12


If you can supply me with a Scripture which says that "very good" in God's standards is less than perfect, you have a point.
Warwick on 8/1/12

Are you for real?
Your asking for Scripture that says perfect is better that just being good?
I dont think you need any, just think about what youre saying.


Thou madest him a little lower than the angels, thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
---TheSeg on 8/1/12


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Adam was made in the image of God, in the image of God, He made them. If God is perfect and without sin, then I would assume the same for Adam since the bible says, "In the image of God He (God) made them."
---anon on 8/1/12


Warwick 2, thank you for the discussion, I really enjoy talking about the Word. I know I said Adam had a desire or else he would not have sinned. Just think about this, If we make choices strictly from a neutral posture, with no prior inclination, then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices, if our choices are utterly spontanous, then our choices have no moral significance. If a choice just happens, or it pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it, then it cannot be judged good or bad. Yet when God evaluates our choices, He judges us by our motives. If Adam made a spontaneous choice, with no moral reason, how could God judge him?
---Mark_V. on 8/1/12


Mark, as I see it some here will not accept that God "whose works are perfect" does not make anything imperfect. I sense there is a denominaltional doctrine involved in THIS thinking.

If you can supply me with a Scripture which says that "very good" in God's standards is less than perfect, you have a point. Likewise you have a point if you can produce a Scripture which says Adam was made not perfect, that is imperfect, that is with inherent flaws. Either he was made perefect because "God's works are perfect" or God purposely made Adam imperfect. If you cannot produce such Scripture you have no point. Therefore as a Bible-believing man you should accept what Scripture says.
---Warwick on 8/1/12


Warwick, I believe you are making too much of "very good" with Adam, and too much of satan been perfect in his ways, to mean he was created perfect as a being. And also you say it is a denominational doctrine, and I know no denomination that uses this as a doctrine. This are just topics that come up when believers discuss the word of God. Also because God creates something good, does not mean that what He created was perfect. You are making too much of the question. When a person has a desire to disobey, it comes from within the person. That means he had that desire, God did not tell Adam to sin, he sinned because he desired to disobey or else he would not have disobeyed.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12


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I cannot see the connection between perfection and sin. Ezekiel 28:15 clearly shows Satan was created perfect but sinned. Adam was created in God's terms "very good" and "in His image" this is the God whose work is perfect-Deuteronomy 32:4. Did He therefore make Adam anything less than perfect. If so why? And where does Scripture say this?

Sin is always a choice, not a flaw. If Adam's disobedience was the result of a God-made flaw then God has blamed the blameless, and He is therefore not a God of justice.

When people here endeavour to have God make Adam less than perfect I believe they are defending a denominational doctrine, not defending Scripture.
---Warwick on 7/31/12


I am not sure I understand the blog question.

Adam was created without sin and he was also created without death (Rom 5:12).

I do not feel that these two attributes qualify as the criteria for perfection.

1 Cor 15 tell us that the first man (Adam) was from the earth, the second man (Jesus) was from heaven. Just as Adam was earthly so we earthly. But we will bear the image of the heavenly after the resurrection of the dead.

We are also taught flesh and blood (earthly) shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Using these two truths we can declare that without being changed by death or by the quickening of the Last Trumpet, Adam would not inherit the kingdom of God, even as he was before he sinned.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/31/12


The doctrine of original sin is a sham
---James_L. on 7/31/12

Not sure I understand what this doctrine is, but this Scripture contradicts your post:

Rom 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men".

All men are condemned. Without acknowledging this fact, Romans 8:1 has no impact. All are condemned except those in Christ. There are no exceptions.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/31/12


"Leon, [you're] still upset I disagreed with you & also spoke against Obama... When God said, what He created was "very good" does it mean perfect or very good? If someone is perfect in their ways, does it mean he was created perfect? or that he walk perfectly in his ways? Was Adam perfect when he blamed God for giving him the woman when God asked him...before the curse. He turned the blame to God."
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12


MV: More nonsense! :) True to form, you're once again not thinking Scripture thru to its logical conclusion. Was Adam perfect when he blamed God? Of course not since he'd recently sinned! Before that he was indeed perfect (blameless, upright, pleasing to God).
---Leon on 7/31/12


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"The doctrine of original sin is a sham"
---James_L. on 7/31/12


What do you mean James_L? Please explain.
---Leon on 7/31/12


\\You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in thee!
Why can I say this? Because its true!\\
---TheSeg on 7/30/12

A M E N ! ! !

The doctrine of original sin is a sham
---James_L. on 7/31/12


"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31)

God said this after He made Adam and Eve, I understand. So, if He meant this for Adam and Eve, then they were "very good".
---willie_c: on 7/31/12


Leon, you are still upset I disagreed with you and also spoke against Obama. He is just a sinner like all of us. We are talking now about the Word of God. When God said, what He created was "very good" does it mean perfect or very good? If someone is perfect in their ways, does it mean he was created perfect? or that he walk perfectly in his ways? Was Adam perfect when he blamed God for giving him the woman when God asked him,
"Have you eaten from the tree Of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate" (Gen. 3:12). This was before the curse. He turned the blame to God.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/12


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MARl_V this blog has recently appears TWO times. What makes you think a third is needed?
---francis on 7/31/12


I am going to say this of every man and woman on earth.
You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in thee!
Why can I say this? Because its true!

You were created were you not? Born a baby!
From that day (the day you were born) till the first day you sinned.
You were perfect in all your ways!

That is unless you believe babies somehow sin!
And I have in no way said you were created perfect!
Now maybe some of you believe, I have said you were created perfect.
Well, just read what I said and dont add to it.

How does perfection fail?
Because of some people thinking it did!
Peace
---TheSeg on 7/30/12


Not only Adam, but Lucifer was made "perfect" (blameless, upright) before he chose to sin & (as a result) become imperfect before Holy God. (Ezekiel 28:15) Everything God made (Genesis 1) was "very good" (pleasing ~ perfect) to God.
---Leon on 7/30/12


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