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Was Pope John Paul Right

In 1996, Pope John Paul II stated that Evolution is compatible with Christianity. Was he right?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/6/12
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\\.I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God.\\

That's Wald's problem, not mine. Still less is that of Pope John Paul II's.

Evolution, as you have been frequently told, has NOTHING to say about the origin of life. It only speaks of its development.

I'm sure, however, that this is a distinction too subtle for you to grasp, jerry.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/6/12


Jerry,

A reference in SA sixty years ago to a spontaneous generation experiment 100 years before is the best you got.

Pathetic...

BTW, the beef broth in Pasteur's experiment was already organic, and so does not apply.

Care to try again.

inorganic to organic, remember that, how do you disprove that?
---atheist on 9/6/12


\\Cognitive dissonance is the term used in modern psychology to describe the discomfort felt by a person seeking to hold two or more conflicting ideas, beliefs, values, or emotional reactions simultaneously.\\

That's what freed me from the Southern Baptist delusion.

Southern Baptists teach that

1. Baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation (even though Jesus commanded it).

2. Baptism MUST be done by immersion.

If 1 is true, then why does 2 matter?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/6/12


"When it comes to the origin of life, we have only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution, the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility...Spontaneous generation was scientifically disproved one hundred years ago by Louis Pasteur, Spellanzani, Reddy and others. That leads us scientifically to only one possible conclusion -- that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God...I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution." - Wald, Scientific American, August, 1954.


---jerry6593 on 9/6/12


Jerry,

Believing in a "god" that is loving and omnipotent, but sits idly by as innocent children starve to death---now that's cognitive dissonance.

And please explain the scientific proof that organic life did not evolve from inorganic. You got none, because you can't prove a negative.

You may say that as of yet science has not provided an explanation of how life arose from lifeless substances, but no more.

Calling yourself a scientist and believing in a supernatural god---now that is cognitive dissonance.
---atheist on 9/5/12




Cognitive dissonance is the term used in modern psychology to describe the discomfort felt by a person seeking to hold two or more conflicting ideas, beliefs, values, or emotional reactions simultaneously. In a state of dissonance, people may feel surprise, dread, guilt, anger, or embarrassment.

I have no such problem, but I am surprised that you don't.

Perhaps 'god' gave you a miswired brain.
---atheist on 9/5/12


Scott,

Just to let you know, you haven't either finally beaten Warwick into Watchtower submission or led him to avoid you - he's merely taking his usual annual trip to his chateau in Burgundy where he likes to supervise the vendange. He will of course stocktake his cellar while he is there, and knowing Warwick, more taking of the stock than the stocking of the take. He sends his greetings to both you and David.

So, where were we? Ah yes: still waiting for an explanation as to how logically and ontologically a finite creature (Michael the angel) can contain ALL the fullness (i.e. that which belongs to the Creator) of an eternal, infinite Being (YHWH).
---Marc on 9/5/12


You have never explained what you mean by accusing me of believing in spiritualism, jerry.

Not that it matters. Your curses and slanders only bless me.

BTW, here is what your precious EGW said about "health reform," which included abstaining from ALL flesh meat: ""The health reform, I was shown, is a part of the third angel's message and is just as closely connected with it as are the arm and hand with the human body." 1T, p.486".

Now, please give the NAME of the pope that "changed the Sabbath to Sunday." I know you can't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/12


Cloony: You are as inept at math as you are at religion. Didn't you ever learn to round off a number based on the value of the succeeding integer? The Bible correctly rounded off Pi to 3, but you incorrectly rounded it off to 3.1415.

You claim to be Orthodox, yet you believe in unorthodox concepts such as evolution, false sabbaths, and spiritualism. Why is that? (Hint: It has nothing to do with Ellen White or SDA's.) Face it, you suffer from the same form of cognitive dissonance as the atheist.


---jerry6593 on 9/5/12


\\(actually, it's 3.1416). \\

Actually, it's 3.14159.....--a totally irrational number that never repeats as a decimal.

\\You agree with the Pope on his false sabbath and his belief in spiritualism, \\

The Pope had NOTHING to do with making Sunday the day of the Eucharist, and I don't know WHAT you mean by spiritualism. What's more, I don't think that you do, either.

\\Yet you expect reasonable, righteous Christians to accept you as some kind of athority.\\

If what the SDAs teach about Christology is what I see on here and in the Revelation Seminars, they are not righteous, not reasonable, and not Christian.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/4/12




Cluny, you are so predictably antiBiblical. You believe only bats and birds fly! Where do you live, underground? What you cannot get past is that the Bible speaks of flying creatures which includes bats and all other extant or extinct flying creatures. Therefore you have no point.

It is ironic that you berate Adventists while promoting totally unorthadox views.

BTW 1 Timothy 4:1-3 speaks against those liars who forbid the eating of certain 'foods.' When the KJV was written the word meat did not just mean animal flesh but all food. Again you have no point.

BTW you avoided answering: Was Abraham an historic person?
---Warwick on 9/4/12


************

Cluny: You wasted 4 of the last 5 posts with your irrelevant prattle. You go out of your way to prove the Bible wrong so that your preconceived fantasies can fester unabated in your tortured (but evolved) mind.

You say the Bible is wrong to call Pi 3, but you are right to call it 3.1415 (actually, it's 3.1416).

You claim that Genesis is wrong about Creation, but you and the Pope are right about Evolution.

You agree with the Pope on his false sabbath and his belief in spiritualism, while neglecting the Orthodox beliefs of Jesus and ALL the disciples to the contrary.

Yet you expect reasonable, righteous Christians to accept you as some kind of athority. Good luck with that!

************
---jerry6593 on 9/4/12


The SDAs favorite medium and peeping, muttering wizadress, Ellen G. White, said that abstaining from ALL meat was part of the third angel's message--the one carrying the "everlasting gospel."

1 Tim 4 1-3 calls requiring abstaining from meat to be a "doctrine of devils."

Who is REALLY not teaching what the Apostles taught?

Who is right: EGW or the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/12


\\Cluny, you falsely claimed the Bible describes bats as birds, when the underlying Hebrew was describing 'owph' 'flying creatures.' \\

With the exception of bats, all the other "flying creatures" are birds, so why is the Bible not calling a bat a bird?

Furthermore, the same passage says that rabbits chew cud like cattle, which the definitely do NOT.

The point of both passages is "Don't eat bats or rabbits."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/12


Cluny, you falsely claimed the Bible describes bats as birds, when the underlying Hebrew was describing 'owph' 'flying creatures.' Flying creatures includes all creatures which fly, including bats, doesn't it? Now be a big boy and admit you had that wrong, and I will show you how you also your ideas about Pi in the Bible wrong.

That's surely fair.
---Warwick on 9/3/12


\\You rounded Pi off to 4 decimal places. The Bible rounded off to 0. So what's the difference? \\

Four decimal places.

You mean you can't tell the difference between 0 and 4?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/2/12


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Note that jerry can do nothing but sink to personal attacks and ad hominem arguments. He certainly cannot prove his points.

\\Your number is not exact either, yet you criticize the Word of God for it. You are a blasphemous hypocrite!\\

If you think that of me, then I'm in good spiritual shape.

\\If you don't know that Mithraism involves sun worship, then you haven't studied much.\\

In other words, you can provide NO quotes from Mithraic documents to prove the origin of Roman Catholic teaching.

\\And, NO, you are NOT Orthodox because you do not believe the doctrines of Jesus and His disciples!\\

You don't think that YOU believe them, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/2/12


*************

Cluny: Aha! You rounded Pi off to 4 decimal places. The Bible rounded off to 0. So what's the difference? Your number is not exact either, yet you criticize the Word of God for it. You are a blasphemous hypocrite!

If you don't know that Mithraism involves sun worship, then you haven't studied much.

And, NO, you are NOT Orthodox because you do not believe the doctrines of Jesus and His disciples!

**************
---jerry6593 on 9/2/12


"Shut your pi hole" aka

How I've missed you.
---scott on 9/1/12


pi...are you serious?

people will argue about anything to take our mind and hearts off serving others.

but, for now try to shut your pi hole and go serve your family some pie. (humble pie if you have some.)
---aka on 9/1/12


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\\I challenge YOU to give the exact value of Pi. Go ahead. And no rounding off as the Bible does.\\

3.1415... for practical purposes.

If you really want to know, you can look it up.

In any case, the Pope has never said a word about the value of pi to my knowledge. Of course, you seem to pay more attention to him than I do. Why?

And I noticed you never answered my challenge to provide Mithraic documents to support your charge about Roman Catholicism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/1/12


**************

Cluny: Once again you, like the Pope, claim that the Bible is in error by not giving the exact value of Pi. I challenge YOU to give the exact value of Pi. Go ahead. And no rounding off as the Bible does.

************
---jerry6593 on 9/1/12


A definition of name dropping is "Referring to someone who is popular or famous in order to let the other person know that you yourself are popular ...
---Warwick on 8/28/12

Referred to u as a "Name Dripper". As a pun and lesson for your habit of digging yourself a pit with your opinions.
When you cannot win an argument with scripture or reason you bring in supporting Fictional friends...to us. Fictional because you do not name them. When you do name them they tend to not support your broad claims...usually science related. Again, in your fantasy's...we are envious.
Frankly it would be nice if you had something christians could be envious of...use of wintessing scriptures for example.
---Trav on 8/30/12


Trav,
I do believe the pastor of whom I wrote was motivated by love.
---Warwick on 8/27/12

Again since you sidestepped your own reflection here, your supposed friend made my point here.
Ur supposed friend may have been motivated by love...you on the other hand have a different strategy. The opposite of your Fit-tional friend. You tout his love then get viciously angry when you can't scripturally win your debate. Typical of most preachers....who think they are shepherds....and by mark and sign are not. Flogging sheep is a bloody brand.
---Trav on 8/27/12
---Trav on 8/30/12


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Follower of Christ, you have spoken the about lost word. As only Masons talk about the "lost word," I'd like to know how long you have been one.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/12


\\If you had carefully read the Scripture involved you would see that the idea it says Pi is 3, is based upon assumption. It is so characteristic of you that you search atheistic sites for information to use against God's word.
---Warwick on 8/29/12\\

As I said, I found that in God's Word myself from my own reading.

Obviously, it's not I who cannot understand plain English.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/12


When dealing with people like you I have to make the decision whether you have trouble comprehending plain English or are evasive. Both fit.

As I have pointed out the word in Genesis, translated in English as birds is "owph" which means flying creatures. Now stop dancing around the truth and tell me if bats are flying creatures or not?

If you had carefully read the Scripture involved you would see that the idea it says Pi is 3, is based upon assumption. It is so characteristic of you that you search atheistic sites for information to use against God's word.
---Warwick on 8/29/12


\\on another post I asked cluny if he was an atheist troll and he evaded my question. \\

I've asked you many questions on various posts, and you have NEVER answered them, FoC, so you have little room to talk.

When I pointed out that the Bible forbids the use of the word "master", and therefore "mister," you falsely claimed that the original word was lost. (Hmmmm--a Masonic myth.... could you be one?)

Apparently some people here think I've never read the Bible for myself and have not seen where bats are called birds and pi is given as 3.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/12


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Trav, I do not know why but you show every sign of being envious of me. You have no need to be. Anything I have is God-given.

It is foolish of you to call the pastor my "supposed" friend, twice. I know the truth of the matter, you don't. Therefore you have no basis upon which to say such a thing. Grow up.

A definition of name dropping is "Referring to someone who is popular or famous in order to let the other person know that you yourself are popular and actually have friends." Firstly I did not mention his name, and for good reason. Secondly he is not famous but a humble, dedicated evangelist. Again you exhibit envy.
---Warwick on 8/28/12


Trav,
I do believe the pastor of whom I wrote was motivated by love.
You seem to have a problem with envy Trav.
---Warwick on 8/27/12

Well okie dokie then, your supposed friend made my point here.
Ur supposed friend may have been motivated by love...you on the other hand have a different strategy.

Envy: You may be right, it does bother me when you are envious. You should really stand on your own instead of name dripping etc.
Proverbs 15:6
In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.
My cup of blessing runneth over....hold urs underneath.
---Trav on 8/27/12


Trav, I do believe the pastor of whom I wrote was motivated by love. In Matthew 12 we see Jesus condemning the Pharisees for their lack of love for the suffering. There was a man with a shrivelled hand but these "white-washed tombs" (Matthew 23:27) asked "is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" And Jesus, motivated by love, healed the man. The pastor who baptized 300+ JW's into the Christian faith was likewise motivated by love. But would you prefer he act as the Pharisees did,bound in legalism or as Jesus did, full of mercy, and love? Should he not have done this? Should he have left these unfortunate people suffering under the legalistic controling hand of the WTS?

You seem to have a problem with envy Trav.
---Warwick on 8/27/12


In thinking of the WTS the word perfidy comes easily to mind.

A pastor friend has baptized 300+ ex JW's. They praise God for him.
---Warwick on 8/24/12

Well...what are you waiting for David with overwhelming testi-money like that?
I mean can you not feel the embracing honeycomb of love in this logic of nameless 301? No scriptures needed just influential unknowns/friends to give authority to the overwhelming logic. Interesting the word "perfidy" popped up as a testamony.
Psalm 37:30
The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
Psalm 85:10
Mercy and truth are met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
---Trav on 8/26/12


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Follower thanks for your comments. Right to the point. We do not know who bloggers are so cannot know (other than by what they write) whether they are faithfull Christians. Some claim to be Christian but promote antiBiblical ideas, and defend them passionately, against Scripture. Nonetheless I believe there are many committed Bible-believing Christians here. I disagree with some of them on some points but I don't doubt the sincerity of their Christian faith.

Cluny promotes antiBiblical ideas such as this nonsense available on various atheistic sites. Why would any true Christian use atheistic nonsense against God's word. You are right he does not react positively to Scripture, especially those which show his ideas are false.
---Warwick on 8/25/12


Cluny your bird and PI comments are worded the same as I have seen numerous times before. They have always come from atheistic sites.


on another post I asked cluny if he was an atheist troll and he evaded my question. Now I see why. reason I asked because he never uses scripture and his answers always take away from topic. Many responses to other peoples posts cluny begins to target them with a smear campaign agenda to divert the poster away from topic with unrelated nonsense. once they take the bait he takes that person further away from the topic to go down his dark rabbit hole. no surprise his answers here are aligned with an atheist viewpoint
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/25/12


Cluny your bird and PI comments are worded the same as I have seen numerous times before. They have always come from atheistic sites. I find it shocking and sad that you, who claim to be Christian, would stoop to using information from such sites.
---Warwick on 8/24/12


**************

Cluny: You just hate it when you are proven wrong don't you? You can't stay focused on the facts, but drift off into irrelevance. Orthodoxy is not defined by the apostasy of gentiles as you propose, but by the doctrines and practices of Jesus and His disciples. Those people were indeed SDA's and you know it. You can't stand it that your beloved Orthodoxy was founded by one of your favorite groups to hate. ROFL!

************************
---jerry6593 on 8/23/12


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Cluny, again you say I misquoted you. How?

The word in Genesis 1:20-23 is Hebrew "owph" which means 'flying creatures' are bats not flying creatures? Where does the problem lie? Not with God's word.

As regards Pi you make incorrect assumptions. Consider what the vessel mentioned is, and the breadth of its rim. How sad it is that a Christian has such feeble faith in God's word. Why do you therefore believe the NT is history? Do you?

How about my questions regarding Abraham, was he an historical person? And his father? Answer please?

I trust you now accept that Jesus and the Apostles took all the OT as sober history? If you believe otherwise make a case from Scripture.
---Warwick on 8/22/12


// Does this include the Bible saying that bats are birds, or that pi equals exactly 3?---Cluny //

Just because man uses a certain classification system doesn't mean God has to. The bible uses 'kind' for classification purposes. The bible doesn't say pi = 3. If you're referring to 1Kings 7:23, you need to read it again and consider ALL of the facts given.
---jason8757 on 8/22/12


\\Likewise you claim Scripture is not intended to be science, whatever this means.\\

Again, you misquote me. I have already explained what I meant. Did you not understand it?

\\ What I do know is that whenever the Bible speaks on scientific matters it is correct. \\

Does this include the Bible saying that bats are birds, or that pi equals exactly 3?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/12


Cluny, the obvious fact is Scripture is historical reality, just as Jesus and the apostles testify. You have no answer against this. Having accepted the evolutionary billions of years belief you feel the need to defend your serious error by claiming Scripture is not historically correct. It makes you feel better about your error.

Likewise you claim Scripture is not intended to be science, whatever this means. What I do know is that whenever the Bible speaks on scientific matters it is correct. The earth is a sphere, hanging in space upon nothing,as Scripture says.

It is not too late to return to Scripture, rejecting man-made ideas. Consider Colossians 2:8 Christ being Creator is in a unique position to know the truth. No man is.
---Warwick on 8/22/12


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\\ The Apostles and ALL Christ's (the REAL one's) disciples kept the seventh-day Sabbath exclusively.\\

1. The Sabbath was NEVER obligatory on Gentiles.

Are you with me so far?

2. The dietary rules of the OT were never obligatory on Gentiles.

3. All the evidence is that Christians (Jewish and Gentile) would meet in the wee hours of Sunday to celebrate the Euchrist, then go on about their ordinary business.

The Christological doctrines of the Apostles bore NO RESEMBLANCE to those of the SDA.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/12


Cluny: I'll try it one more time, r e a l l y s l o w l y. The Apostles and ALL Christ's (the REAL one's) disciples kept the seventh-day Sabbath exclusively. Are you with me so far? "Seventh-day", Got it? They also believed in the second advent (coming) of Jesus (the REAL one). They were thus "Adventists". Now try to concentrate and put these two FACTS together. What do you get? That's right - Seventh-day Adventists!!

They were the TRUE Orthodox believers, and if you don't believe these same two doctrines, you are NOT Orthodox - it's that simple.


---jerry6593 on 8/22/12


\\The Apostles were SDA's!\\

Wrong again.

The Apostles did not teach that Jesus was Michael the Archangel incarnate like the SDA does.

The Apostles did not teach that Satan will become the sin bearer at the end of time, as the SDA does.

These are just two of the many problems with the SDA. I could go on and on about them without even touching on the Saturday issue, which is the LEAST of your problems.

Glory to Jesus Christ! (Too bad you don't believe in the real one!)
---Cluny on 8/21/12


Cluny: "If you really believed what the Apostles taught, y ou would not be SDA."

The Apostles were SDA's! They kept the seventh-day Sabbath and believed in the second coming of Jesus (hence - seventh-day adventists). They also believed in Genesis Creation. It is YOU who do not believe as the Apostles did. YOU ARE NOT ORTHODOX!!!!!!!!


---jerry6593 on 8/21/12


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\\Why do you answer a question with a question containing a lie?" I do believe what the Apostles taught - Genesis Creation. You do not! Thus, I am Orthodox and you are not.

*****************
---jerry6593 on 8/20/12\\

If you really believed what the Apostles taught, y ou would not be SDA.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/20/12


Cluny, you attempt evasion. Sticking to the "history" point (I will come to the separate issue of "science later) you wrote "the Bible was not intended to be history.. AS WE UNDERSTAND those studies today. For brevity's sake I wrote "you claimed the Bible is not history." I see no misquotation.

Today if we say Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth we mean if you were there you would actually have seen Booth commit this act, wouldn't we? When Hebrews 11 talks of what Abraham did by faith are you saying he actually did these things in real history or are you saying he didn't?

When the same chapter talks about Moses did he actually (in real-time history) do these things or not?
---Warwick on 8/20/12


*******************

Cluny: "Why do you ask this, jerry, when you yourself clearly don't believe what the Apostles taught?"

Why do you answer a question with a question containing a lie?" I do believe what the Apostles taught - Genesis Creation. You do not! Thus, I am Orthodox and you are not.

*****************
---jerry6593 on 8/20/12


\\Cluny, you claimed the Bible is not history.\\

You have misquoted me.

I said the Bible was not intended to be history or science AS WE UNDERSTAND those studies today.

Until you quote me properly, I will not discuss these matters with you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/12


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Cluny, you claimed the Bible is not history. When challenged you retreated saying you meant only the first books. I demonstrated Jesus and the apostles considered Genesis sober history and you went quiet, because your view is unScriptural. Genesis speaks of Abraham's great faith. Was Abraham a real historical person or not? Luke (ch.3) says His father was Terah. Is Terah an historical person or not? Terah's father was Serug. Was he an historical person or not? And so on to Adam. At what exact point does history become fable?

Hebrews chapter 11 is given over to commending people of great faith, presenting Genesis creation as fact. "without faith is is impossible to please God." Romans 14:23 says that not of faith is sin!
---Warwick on 8/19/12


cluny can you prove the lies Karol has provided casting doubt on holy scripture by aligning with evolution? Can you prove evolution? Karol couldn't yet he still made his statement casting doubt on the minds of his followers. the crux of my first post was planting the seed of doubt. So yes cluny i just proved my point and I follow the Lord not a man who claims he follows the Lord when he seeks to destroy Gods Word.

Now how could you prove evolution when Karol could not and so many scientists are back peddling on this useless theory and most cannot agree on any point within the theory. careful now because nobody can prove evolution to date so you would have to pull up some pretty big breeches to fill that role

peace to you
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/19/12


\\For the record, do you agree with this Catholic position, or do you agree with the true orthodox belief of the Apostles?


**************
---jerry6593 on 8/19/12\\

Why do you ask this, jerry, when you yourself clearly don't believe what the Apostles taught?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/12


*************

Cluny: The issue is not the Pope's name, but his position on the theory of Evolution and its compatibility with Christianity. For the record, do you agree with this Catholic position, or do you agree with the true orthodox belief of the Apostles?


**************
---jerry6593 on 8/19/12


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\\Cluny ever seeking never learning? antiquity of word formerly meaning master has long been lost\\

OH? Deflecting now, are you?

\\however let's be clear Karol Jozef Wojtyla was a man drunk on religious power \\

Can you prove your accusation?

I really doubt it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/18/12


Cluny:

You said:

Why did you call him "Mr Wojtylla," when the Bible says to call no man "master," and "Mister" is merely a variant spelling?

Please explain why you disobeyed Jesus, Follower of Christ.


One must be careful about being TOO pedantic. By the same reasoning, one should not call Jesus "Lord" either (which means pretty much the same thing as "Master").
---StrongAxe on 8/18/12


Cluny ever seeking never learning? antiquity of word formerly meaning master has long been lost, however let's be clear Karol Jozef Wojtyla was a man drunk on religious power his right to any religious title is by his catholic religion not by the Lord Jesus. Using the Mr. title so you could point your finger and claim I disobey is interesting. Mr and Mrs titles have long been a formality used in America. Your purpose is to be off topic in keeping with your non-topic comment if customer service representatives here in America stopped calling their employers clients by Mr Mrs or Ms they would all eventually be fired. This will open jobs for the unemployed and eventually the only employed Americans will be disobedient to the Lord.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/18/12


\\Mr Wojtyla planted the seed of doubt into millions of the minds of their followers\\

Why did you call him "Mr Wojtylla," when the Bible says to call no man "master," and "Mister" is merely a variant spelling?

Please explain why you disobeyed Jesus, Follower of Christ.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/18/12


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Jerry, I am not sure what 'camp' Cluny is in. He quotes some Scripture as if it is God's absolute truth but rejects other parts. For example he says Genesis (the foundation for the gospel) isn't history. He does not get this from God's word but from falible sinful man who does not know the end from the beginning. Shades of Colossians 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." Christ is Creator. Do they not think that He would tell us if His Genesis account of creation was just a convenient story? But He says it is sober historical truth.
---Warwick on 8/16/12


******************

Warwick: Apparently, Cluny agrees with the last Pope that Evolution can be force-fit into Christianity. That would make him ideologically more Catholic than Orthodox, wouldn't it?


**********************
---jerry6593 on 8/16/12


StrongAxe, I believe you make a good point. What your speaking of is selective breeding, where the strong survive to breed with the strong and thus their offspring are stronger. However, their offspring are still the same. For example deer are still deer, man is still man, monkeys are still monkeys. Each fathering offspring in their own image. We don't see fish becoming monkeys, or monkeys becoming humans. Just a thought. My opinion is Pope JP was wack.
---trey on 8/14/12


Cluny, Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to the first 11 chapters of Genesis alone no less than 107 times. And always as sober historical reality. After all the events of the first few chapters of Genesis are the only foundation the NT gives as the reason Jesus came to die. As the NT says Jesus came because of Adam's sin. If this is not historical reality there is no real foundation for the gospel.

Can you provide any Scripture which says these early events are not historical reality?

Consider 1 Corinthians 11:7,8, Mark 10:6-9, 1 Timothy 2:13, Romans 5:12, John 1:1, 10, Hebrews 1:10, 4:10,11:3, 2 Corinthians 4:6. Where is there even a hint these things are not historically true?
---Warwick on 8/14/12


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Warwick, I was referring to the earlier books of the Bible, especially Genesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/12


Cluny if the Bible wasn't to be taken as history, as we view it today, are you saying Jesus may or may not have lived, died and risen again, in history?

Does the Bible say it is not historically correct? If so where?
---Warwick on 8/12/12


Karol Jozef Wojtyla was a man drunk on religious power. He was not a man who followed the Lord. The idea that evolution is compatible with Christianity is the essence of saying their is no God. Mr Wojtyla did not follow the Lord because as the vicar he believed he is the replacement to the Lord Jesus. You cannot follow Lord Jesus if you believe you are his replacement. You can't do both. Mr Wojtyla planted the seed of doubt into millions of the minds of their followers who give their minds to him. Important to understand how powerful this will be when the Lord Jesus returns to claim his rulership and establish Gods government on earth because all systems like this universal system will be destroyed.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/12/12


trey:

Evolution does NOT say that thing necessarily "evolve for the better". The principle of Natural Selection observes that creatures that happen to ALREADY HAVE features that are more amenable to survival are more likely to successfully reproduce - so such features are more likely to be inherited by larger numbers of offspring than offspring of creatures without such features. So, in a vague statistical sense, over long periods of time, species frequently have a tendency to adapt favorably to prevailing circumstances. This is merely a statistical phenomenon, not any kind of direction to improvement, nor any kind of ironclad law.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/12


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If I understand Evolution correctly it concludes that things evolve for the better and develop into higher life forms. If I understand reality it appears to me that things are not evolving for the better but changing and degrading for the worse. It seams to me that evolution and reality are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
---trey on 8/9/12


you use this argument, also.
---aka on 8/8/12++

Only with those who believe in Sola Scriptura.

Glory to JEsus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/12

or those you think are scripture only. as i have told you...i am not.
---aka on 8/9/12


++\\It's not in the Bible.\\
---Cluny on 8/8/12

you use this argument, also.
---aka on 8/8/12++

Only with those who believe in Sola Scriptura.

Glory to JEsus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/12


\\It's not in the Bible.\\
---Cluny on 8/8/12

you use this argument, also.
---aka on 8/8/12


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//Remember that the Bible is NOT intended to be either science or history as we understand those disciplines today.//

Exactly, the Bible is a Book of theology.

The "Historical Books" are better understood as the Books of the Prophets, which gives a different paradigm when reading them.
---Rod4Him on 8/8/12


Remember that the Bible is NOT intended to be either science or history as we understand those disciplines today.

Unlike some people here who want to limit God to a childishly literal reading of Genesis, I believe that God is capable of doing anything He wishes, and works through natural processes He Himself established.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/8/12


The concept of Evolution was created as an alternative explanation to the Genesis account of the Bible. As such, it is completely foreign to the Bible and to the Bible characters themselves - both Old and New Testament. Jesus, and all the Apostles accepted the Genesis account and Noah's flood as historical fact. To accept Evolution in any form is to claim that they were all in error, and that a new, man-made creation account is the truth. Such thinking is non-orthodox at best, and probably blasphemous at worst.


---jerry6593 on 8/8/12


\\It's not in the Bible.\\

Automobiles are not in the Bible.

The computer you used to post this is not in the Bible.

Even the very word "Bible" is not in the Bible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/8/12


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I don't think evolution is scientifically reasonable, never mind Christian. It's not in the Bible. And my personal experience is creatures are so marvelously made . . . more than just physical mutations could produce. Humans are self-destructive, instead of scientifically better. So, how could we have evolved if "survival of the fittest" was really true???? If all were decided by physical mutations, then all our behavior would depend on mutations, and many behaviors have only recently gotten started, in too little time for mutations to produce them.
---willie_c: on 8/7/12


\\All the popes Are a type & shadow of the anti - christ that Is to come.\\

Wrong again, as in everything you say, Lawrence.

The Bible says that denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is the spirit of Antichrist.

Whatever sins popes may have had, that is NOT among them.

But YOU deny that Jesus is God made flesh by your denial of the Trinity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/7/12


All the popes Are a type & shadow of the anti - christ that Is to come. ( Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6, their christianity spelled with a little c. ) They may have a bite of evolution in their crawl. They believe anything that the devil 2nd.Cor. 11 v 14 tells them.

Acts 2 v 38 Christianity is spelled with a Capital C. NO evolution here.
---Lawrence on 8/6/12


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