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Anything Before Creation

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. First heaven Genesis 1:8, than the earth Genesis 1:10. Was anything created before this?

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 ---TheSeg on 8/12/12
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Jan, what you said is impossible. Creation of all things began on (Gen. 1:1) it was the beginning of all things. God never mentioned that there was another creation of angels and satan before the creation of heaven and earth. Or that He ever mention another beginning. Anyone can assume many things, but there is only one beginning mentioned. No where are we told there is another beginning. It would be good to read The Seg answer.
"Thus the heavens and the earth, "and all the host of them" were finished at the end of the six day. (Gen. 2:1,2)
---Mark_V. on 12/16/12


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. First heaven Genesis 1:8, than the earth Genesis 1:10. Was anything created before this?

There's no mention of the creation of angels in that creation record. God of course had his domain and his angels to serve him before the creation of the cosmos and our solar system. Before God said "light be" there was water and the earth existing underneath it like a pre-noah flood had occurred. God told Adam and Eve to replenish. The word implies restore as before.
---jan4378 on 12/13/12


Was anything created before this?

I am lead to correct my last post---God Exist...

Always.
---char on 12/12/12


yes

big band

God said and BANG

there was
---francis on 12/11/12


Yes.

Elohyim
---char on 12/10/12




Mark_v, Ive read some things on these blog,
But pats, I can not to save my life, figure you out!

Well, Mark V, I can not to save my life, figure you out! Thanks anyways.
pat on 11/1/12

Now, if I understand this, not everything was recorded about God.
And you agreed with him and I also agree!

But for creation to be creation, something has to be created.
Like heaven, then the host of it, the earth, and the host of it.
Gen_2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Now, even if you believe the hosts of heaven were created first.
Its still falls under the creation of heaven and earth, Gen 1!

Read Gen_1:31
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/3/12


That's okay, MarkV. You have a good day.
---pat on 11/2/12


Pat, I was agreeing with you, and giving you the reasons why. That was all. Thanks for hearing. Sorry there was no understanding. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 11/2/12


Well, Mark V, I can not to save my life, figure you out! Thanks anyways.
---pat on 11/1/12


Pat, you are correct when you said that many things happened that we are not told. If they had been important for us to know, He would have told us we needed to know them. Many things are not explained in detail. Many numbers are not exact either. If Scripture says, 10,000 people were in the desert it could have been 10,551, but 10,000 was enough for us to know. It really does not matter to us now because we know there were many not just a hundred, and it matters only to those who want to question the Word of God not being exact. So you are correct, that not every exact thing was written.
---Mark_V. on 10/31/12




God was before Creation. Very easy question.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/12


Pat, Satan and the demons were not created before creation, that is impossible. They are created beings a part of creation. They are not infinite. Only God is infinite. Though we are not told, but they had to be created some time before the fall of Adam.
(Gen. 2:1) tells us
"Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished" All the host of heaven and earth were finished when this quote was given. So from (Gen.2:1 to the 3:1) satan fell from heaven. We are not told exactly when. But we know it happened because by (chapter 3) he had already fell.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/12


Pat thanks for making me study! John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
---J_Mark on 10/30/12


If everything was recorded about God and what Jesus said and did, There would not be enough libraries to contain all the books.....I get a lot of my info from the author of the Bible>>>GOD....Now, I am serious. And what I wrote up at top is also in the Bible, somewhere.
---pat on 10/29/12


Pat, please listen to the apostle Paul! 2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2nd Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears,
2nd Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Do'nt listen to these pastors or teachers unless they agree with what God (Ya) gave us in scripture!
---J_Marc on 10/29/12


Not everything was recorded about God. Not everything was recorded. Praise the living God. In digging into Bible tools I learned that Satan, angels, were created befoe the creation of this world. That's it.
---pat on 10/29/12


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Pat,Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Before creation of the earth or after? I've been looking And found nowhere in scripture that satan or "his" angles were created before the creation of the earth, yet i have heard that teaching as well, maybe some one else can give SCRIPIITUAL evidence of those teachings!
---J_Marc on 10/29/12


Trav,

I would have thought the companies you've been managing recently would have had a spell check on their computers e.g. "chosen" fantasy's????
---Marc on 10/26/12


If I remember correctly in studying one time on this>>> Satan and his angels and God's angels were created before this world.
---pat on 10/26/12


Hope this helps: BEGINNING, the first cause, orgin, the first stste, commencement, entrance into being, BEGIN,To do the first act of, to enter upon the first act, to enter upon something new, to take the first step. The Consolated Webster Encylopedic Dictonary. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.!!!
---J_Marc on 10/26/12


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Trav: "Gen does say this about creation. I believe it true. It just doesn't say when. It could have just as easily been 10,000 years ago and probably was at minimum."

The Hebrew (i.e. the vav consecutive i.e. the word 'and') does not allow a gap. There is no easy about it. It's a question of grammar rules which the author of Genesis used to set a limit.
---Marc on 10/26/12


Jerry, I think Trav has done a Bolt.
---Warwick on 10/4/12

Trav: I am having difficulty trying to understand your point.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

If that is not sufficient, please explain why.
---jerry6593 on 9/29/12

No argument. Gen does say this about creation. I believe it true. It just doesn't say when. It could have just as easily been 10,000 years ago and probably was at minimum.

(Ha.. in warwick "chosen" fantasy's ...he silences all. Apreacherthing.)

I've been xtra busy this year managing a couple of companies.
---Trav on 10/26/12


Jerry, I think Trav has done a Bolt.
---Warwick on 10/4/12


Trav: I am having difficulty trying to understand your point. If you are looking for scriptural justification for a short-term creation of heaven and earth, here it is:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

If that is not sufficient, please explain why.



---jerry6593 on 9/29/12


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Trav, those who believe the earth is thousands of years old, and God did not use any form of evolution do so because of what Scripture says. Anyone well versed with Scripture knows the Biblical genealogies give a time-line from Adam to Christ of c4,000 years. If these genealogies were not meant to give a timeline, why were they so specific? Some believe those mentioned were not historical people. On what Biblical grounds?

Jesus (speaking of the foundation of marriage) said man and woman were made at the beginning of creation (Mark 10:5-9) not billions of years later. The skeptic may say Jesus didn't know the truth of what happened?
---Warwick on 9/26/12


Trav, I feel priviledged to defend God's word against those who would undermine it. His word is clear there are no billions of years ...
---Warwick on 8/28/12

mr. Constant Quoter you've never provided scriptural revelence in any debate. U say it is clear, but not clear enough for you to prove.
There would be no debate anywhere...if clear. Fact that GOD has not revealed it to you leaves it wide open for search. Your preaching failure, to establish truth by prophet or apostle in scripture frees us from you and your unwitness doctrines.
Feeling priviledged is your blindness.
Jer 33: 24,25 Thus saith the Lord, If my covenant be not with day and night, if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth,
---Trav on 9/23/12


Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2Ti_3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
---TheSeg on 8/31/12


Trav,
That you don't quote relevant Scripture seems you've already reached that point.
---Marc on 8/29/12

Never stated as fact...but, you have no scripture proving it isn't. Stated GOD will do whatever he likes. If hidden...men cannot find it. That does not make it non existant. The fact that it is hidden and opposite unsupported doctrine can be a search. Fearful/faithless will hold back....theirselves. Water should not support a body either.
Ecclesiastes 8:17
Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it, yea farther, though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
---Trav on 8/30/12


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Phil
Let me see if I understand.
Gen_1:1 In the beginning God made the heaven or heavens and the earth.

Now you're saying something happened. So, the earth was destroyed! (I'd like to know by whom.)
So, tell me was heaven or the heavens destroyed also?
Because, it says only the earth, was without form, and void.

By what you're saying, I take it, you must mean!
Not just the earth was destroyed, but the heaven or heavens, also!
Because in, Gen_1:7-8. God is remaking the heavens.
Now I don't like adding to Scripture.
So, you tell me, was heaven destroyed also?

Because Gen_1:2, is clear!
It says only the earth was without form, and void.

If you'd be so kind how's that work?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/30/12


But, if the destruction thing is true, please explain! TheSeg on 8/29/12

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Mt 25:34 ...the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

pro kataboles and apo kataboles

Kataboles etymologically is "down cast".

Re 12:10 the accuser of our brethren is cast down

KJV: G2598 kataballo cast down, lay.

"Foundation" for kataboles is interpretive, not accurate. It means cast down.
Genesis 1 is pro kataboles.
---Phil on 8/30/12


Trav,

To paraphrase Scripture, "There is a way that seems right to man but which only leads to intellectual death."

That you don't quote relevant Scripture seems you've already reached that point.
---Marc on 8/29/12


Phil, you said:
The correct rendering of the Hebrew text reads: Gn 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void.
IS "And the earth, she-became chaos and vacant".

I like the fact you didnt say how, well done!
But, if the destruction thing is true, please explain!

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Peace
---TheSeg on 8/29/12


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Isa 45:18 For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it--not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: 'I am Jehovah, and there is none else.

Gn 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void.

The correct rendering of the Hebrew text reads: "And the earth, she-became chaos and vacant".

The seer, Isaiah, says it was not created that way, it became that way, according to verse 1 of Genesis.

How much time expired between verse 1 and verse 2 of Genesis Chapter One is not recorded in Scripture.

It is open to any useless debate one chooses to enter into.
---Phil on 8/29/12


Trav, I feel priviledged to defend God's word against those who would undermine it. His word is clear there are no billions of years so why would any Christian want to contradict what He says?

Being a constant quoter of Scripture I feel confident to say you quote none in this instance is because there is none to support your personal views. And of course much which contradicts it.

As Scripture says "that which is not of faith is sin" Romans 14:23. Hebrews ch. 11 tells us we accept God's testimony about creation, by faith. Conversely those who will not accept what His word says exhibit lack of faith. Not good for a Christian.
---Warwick on 8/28/12


Trav, interesting speculation. But as we are Christians who honour God and His word where can you find support for your idea in Scripture?
---Warwick on 8/26/12

Where do I find support? By lack of it. Sometimes it is what is not said that says the most. For instance it is not clear or you wouldn't/couldn't spend so much time debating Genesis.
By default if I don't believe as your doctrine I can't be a Christian. Ha.
I'm very comfortable with multiple scripture witnesses not being a member of your doctrine. U do the best you can with what you utilize. When you utilize thoroughly you may understand more.
---Trav on 8/27/12


Trav, please dont fight me.
Try to explain it to me.
God peace
---TheSeg on 8/27/12

I've no fight with Seg. Opinions cause fights. Witnesses scriptural or otherwise unify by truth. They contain no opinion.

Science and GOD do go hand in hand.
Man's science? No. GOD as the scientific creator know all the scientific answers you'd agree. When Man's answers/logic do not unify even as in this blog... is it because we are blind....or maybe as per his will. Maybe as per the restraining doctrines of men....or logic of men. These we should test.
Genesis 37:16
And he said, I seek my brethren: tell me, I pray thee, where they feed their flocks.
---Trav on 8/27/12


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Trav, I know Gen 1:1 says:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But, do not the waters contain everything that will be?
Because even at the end of all creation of these same waters!
There will be waters, above every, and all heavens, God has made!

Now are you saying there is a heaven above the waters God said, are above all heavens!
Gen 1:7-9 and just to be sure:
Psa 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Ye heavens of heavens! Is the highest heaven, is it not?
Ye waters that be above the heavens! That is above that.

Trav, please dont fight me.
Try to explain it to me.
God peace
---TheSeg on 8/27/12


Trav, do you really believe this?
Science and GOD go hand in hand.
13.75 give/take 0.11 billion years!

When this was clearly written!
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

God bless
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/26/12


Trav, interesting speculation. But as we are Christians who honour God and His word where can you find support for your idea in Scripture?
---Warwick on 8/26/12


The Mutual Admiration Society: Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise & learned, such foolish people go aimlessly about here & there, like blind led by the blind ~ just as Jesus said in Matthew 15:14.
---Leon on 8/26/12


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Clear to all here, should be God does not mix words!
And nothing was made outside of the six days of creation!
---TheSeg on 8/21/12

GOD can do anything. He is GOD. He can make everything, everything there is to make period in whatever time line he wants to make it.

Having said that, it is not clear that the entire universe was made in 7 days. It is entirely possible based on the language in scripture, that from the far flung or close universe that ancient or young material from our planet was gathered to make our planet.
Which would solve some of the ancient dating in the geology of our planet, without taking GOD out.
Science and GOD go hand in hand....it is Men and their foolish doctrines that do not.
---Trav on 8/26/12


The Seg, very well said. After the six day creation everything was very good. If it was good for God why should anyone object to that and try to change that? I like discussions like the one's you had. They teach us a lot of things. One that God did not find it important to explain every little detail of everything He does and many times not even the reasons, but by faith we know that what He does is it always for His glory. We will never have a right conception of God unless we think of Him as all powerful, as well as all wise. He who cannot do what he will, and perform all his pleasure, cannot be God. As God has a will to resolve what He deems good, so has He power to execute His will. Peace to you brother.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/12


Hello again, there is one last thing I must say!
How I dont want to say it, but I feel it must be said.
I also want to say Im sorry for anyone who is offended!

Mat_4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
He told the devil:
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
With that said.

Clear to all here, should be God does not mix words!
And nothing was made outside of the six days of creation!
And that God on the sixth day, looked upon everything he had made.
And called everything simply, very good!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/21/12


TheSeg,
\\And yet I understand you perfectly, and may I add very well said!\\

Thanks, brother. I proudly say that too. To you, Warwick, and Mark V - You have all added valuable input to what I feel like I struggled to convey


\\Never let it be said of me, that I think my blade is sharp enough!\\

We should all say that in sincere humility, but I don't think it's admitted often enough by most - myself included.


\\Even though it does cut every well!\\

I think all of our swords cut too well. Definitely words to ponder. I appreciate that. God bless you, brother
---James_L on 8/19/12


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Far above all heavens!
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

He is above the very waters, which are above the heavens.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters!

Praise ye the LORD!
ye heavens of heavens, ye waters that be above the heavens
ye all his angels and ye all his hosts.

Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/19/12


James_L, That, my friend, is something that is far outside my realm of comprehension!
And yet I understand you perfectly, and may I add very well said!

As far as the chaos thing, I hear that from a lot of difference people.
I let them talk, people like to talk. But, then at the end, I always ask them.
So then you think the devil can change what God has done?

If you do this, take a good look at their faces.
How that is chaos!

James my man, I would be proud to call you brother!
Never let it be said of me, that I think my blade is sharp enough!
Even though it does cut every well!
With all my heart God bless!
---TheSeg on 8/18/12


James, you have explained things very well.

Verse 1 says God created the heavens and the earth, the earth initially made without its finished form. I don't believe there is any Biblcal support for the idea the earth was receated out of chaos. This chaos idea was invented by Thomas Chalmers who believed in an ancient earth and thought this was how the billions of years, and the fossil record could be squeezed in. It doesn't work Biblically or practically.

Starting with an unformed and unfilled earth verse 10 shows God caused dry land to appear, giving the earth its finished form. The following verses show God began to fill it with plants, animals and man. So is was initially without form and unfilled.
---Warwick on 8/18/12


James, I totally agree with what you just stated. No use trying to figure out where God was at since God is Spirit and is Omnipresent. That is why I said before that God existed from all eternity outside of what we call time and space. We are not told a location, if it was what we call location. I too believe Gen. 1 was the beginning of all things. Good discussions with The Seg.
---Mark_V. on 8/18/12


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\\So, arent you saying heaven already existed before Gen_1:1?\\
---TheSeg

Nothing was created before Genesis 1.

Although, there are arguments that in Genesis 1:1, God "Re-created" from a state of chaos. Has to do with the Hebrw wording. I am not persuaded, maybe because I have not investigated it enough.

As for my comment that the earth was already there in verse 2, and whether heaven already existed prior,

Most every translation says God created the "heavens" - plural. Not heaven, as in the abode of God. Heavens, as in the physical universe in general, and the earth's atmosphere.

I don't think God ever created where He is, because where would He be up til that point?
---James_L on 8/18/12


TheSeg (part 2)

Now, when I say that God never created where He is, I should clarify that I do not believe that there is any "place" which is eternal.

I don't believe God is in a "place" per se,

It's that I don't know how to explain something that is, and where it is, when it is not physical.

That, my friend, is something that is far outside my realm of comprehension.

Good discussion so far, though. Thanks for that.
---James_L on 8/18/12


bro. Marc, I also want to thank you for defending the biblical Christ. Most of this religions begin because of skeptics who didn't believe something in Scripture and went ahead and started groups opposing the Biblical Christ. The witnesses begin when Charles Russell rejection of many Christian doctrines, like Muhammah, and Joseph Smith. And now, New Agers and liberal Christians, and many other skeptics are now starting their own groups. We were told this would happen and it is happening. The great apostasy started with the RCC when a marriage was formed with the Roman Empire. The first Universal Church with one Hierarchy, Constantine, and Christ was dethrone as Head of the Churches. The Church of Christ was never to be that way.
---Mark_V. on 8/18/12


James_L, you got me a little confused here.
You told Marc, I, for one, appreciate all the effort you expend in defending the biblical Christ

Marc seems to be saying nothing was created before Gen_1:1
Marc, please correct me, if Im wrong.

James do you agree with that, because that is, what Ive seen saying!
On 8/14/12 you said:
The earth was already here in verse 2, "and darkness was over the surface of the deep."
So, arent you saying heaven already existed before Gen_1:1?

Even though Psa 148:4 says:
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

I mean this does say heavens of heavens, and the waters above that.
Unless Im reading it wrong, am i?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/18/12


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Marc,
I think I suffer some of those same implosions.

It goes with the nature of hit-and-run debating.
---James_L on 8/17/12


Thanks James...pity I don't defend the English language as well. Me thinks I suffered a temporary [grammar] brain implosion I believe!
---Marc on 8/17/12


\\who am I to argue with the Brooklyn intellectual heavyweights, eh?\\
---Marc on 8/17/12

Good stuff, Marc.

Their "a god" doctrine has the stench of the Canaanite pantheon

One Supreme God who has the master plan, with little minion gods doing all the work. Maybe they should call themselves "Canaan's Witnesses"


BTW,
I, for one, appreciate all the effort you expend in defending the biblical Christ

God bless you
---James_L on 8/17/12


Can't you read the Bible? It's so unambiguously written in God's Word: Michael the archangel was created before the creation because, according to the Watchtower (and a some other very small groups), so he could created everything [else].

Sounds almost New Agey occultic gnostic pseudo-wisdom that an angel would create and not YHWH, but, heck, who am I to argue with the Brooklyn intellectual heavyweights, eh?
---Marc on 8/17/12


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************************

"Was anything created before this?"

NO!

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth

Any questions?

***************************
---jerry6593 on 8/17/12


Ok, James_L, Leon, Cluny lets try this. You guys tell me, this firmament God called heaven.
Is it the Earth, the atmosphere, the solar system, the Milky Way or the universe or haven?
Now whatever you guys decided!

I want you to know God said there are waters above it!
Moreover I want you to know these waters are still there.

Ok, Im getting to that. How do I know, right!
Psa 148:4, Praise him, ye heavens of heavens,
Lets stop here the heavens of heaven. What heaven is that?
Now lets continue, and ye waters that be above the heavens!

But, James_L, dont tell me you dont know how rain is made.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/16/12


The Seg,

\\Atmosphere (1st), what atmosphere?
Gen 2:5,...not caused it to rain upon the earth.
You do understand the earth and seas at this point exist.
No water in the atmosphere.
Now Gen 2:6, there went up a mist from the earth!\\

I do understand that there was no rain yet. The mist watered the earth's surface (2:6). But that doesn't mean there was no water in the atmosphere. He did separate the waters above from the waters below (1:6)

What are these waters above and below, with a firmament between, if they aren't part of the earth's atmosphere?
---James_L on 8/16/12


G1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven & the earth. First heaven G1:8, then the earth G1:10. Was anything created before this? ---The Seg on 8/12/12

Some here believe G1 speaks of the creation of the universe. That suggests everything that was made was made then. I don't share this belief.

I believe G1 speaks about the creation of our solar system within the Milky Way galaxy, which is a minute part of God's universe. Certainly, the angels were created before us. Only Creator God knows what He has made & is yet making in infinity. Jesus did say He's gone away to prepare a place for His body of believers.
---Leon on 8/16/12


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James_L, God bless you man!
Singular or plural right now, what does that matter?

Paul spoke of being the "third heaven", and I understand that to mean there are at least three.
Yea, I would agree to this point!

From here on, no!
The separation would have been the atmospheric waters from the waters on the surface of the earth (Gen 1:7).

Atmosphere (1st), what atmosphere?
Gen 2:5, for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth.
You do understand the earth and seas at this point exist.
No water in the atmosphere.
Now Gen 2:6, there went up a mist from the earth!

The 3rd heaven is the abode of God?
Psa_113:4. Psa_148:4
Eph_4:10 far above all heavens!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/16/12


Peter, Forgive me!
But, this is not the only blog here, is it?
And your post! We are not TOLD that there was!

Well lets see, I read it. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Now doesnt this mean the beginning of creation? I mean it sounds very clear to me.

But, if youre not sure lets go down to Gen 1:31, now lets read what he said:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Here it says everything he had made! But you think, he meant only some of the things he made.

I agree with what you said at the end.
We have spent too long arguing about this!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/16/12


TheSeg,

I may be misunderstanding something about what you are writing, so please correct me if I am.

You use the word "heaven" in its singular, and I take it that you mean the abode of God ?? if not, let me know what you do mean.

I understand it as "heavens" - plural

Paul spoke of being the "third heaven", and I understand that to mean there are at least three - atmosphere (1st), galaxies (2nd), abode of God (3rd).

God created the heavens - first and second - and the earth

The separation would have been the atmospheric waters from the waters on the surface of the earth (Gen 1:7). Then, after that, God separated the land from the seas (1:9-10)
---James_L on 8/16/12


We are not TOLD that there was.

But that does not mean there there was nothing - it just means there was nothing we need to know about about.

For all we know, there may have been plenty of interesting stuff going on before that we have not been told about. We are not always told if it does not affect us.

But let us leave it alone. We have spent too long arguing about this
---Peter on 8/15/12


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James_L, lets assume for the moment, what your saying is right.
Being water appears to be one of the most abundant molecules in the Universe.
As even Cluny believe and is clearly seen, even proven!

God says in Gen_1:6-7, he made a firmament in the midst of the waters.
And that this firmament divides the water above from the waters under.
Heaven divides the waters, this is so.

Now if space, the Universe, is heaven. As you guys believe!
And God said heaven divides/separated the waters under and above.
How it is there is water in the Universe?

Clearly, if there is water in the Universe, then heaven doesnt divided the waters.
But, connect the waters. No division, you see that right?
God bless, Peace
---TheSeg on 8/15/12


Hey, TheSeg.

We can just forget about anything that's written and just make up whatever makes our hearts content, right?

Seems to be working for you, I'd stick with it it I were you
---James_L on 8/15/12


Wow James_L, your right, there it is!
But, why even look at verse 2, lets stay at verse 1!
Wow, there it is again. Thanks man!

We'll just forget about those parts, which it says!
And the earth was without form, and void!
Or that he said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters! (Not the earth, but heaven!)
And the fact that he, divide the waters from the waters.
And it was the waters under the heaven, the earth came from!
Which, I know sound good to you!
But, there are waters above the heaven!
And Psa 148:4, says there still there!
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
But hey, thanks
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/14/12


\\its heaven not heavens\\
---TheSeg

That depends on which translation you're reading. Sometimes it's trivial to get hung up on the English rendering.



\\Heaven is made, no earth with an atmosphere and no stars for galaxies.\\
---TheSeg

The earth was already here in verse 2, "and darkness was over the surface of the deep."

Water covered the entire surface of the planet, and what happened in verses 9- 10 is a separation of what already existed from before
---James_L on 8/14/12


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Water appears to be one of the most abundant molecules in the Universe.

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Hydrogen is so plentiful in the Universe!
It comes in at number one.
Oxygen comes in at number three.

So, let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place.
The Actual Physical Universe!

Also notice its only when God is talking about the water under the heaven!
That everything here is made!
Also notice that it is water and blood!

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Everything is everything.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/14/12


1st Seg, I hear that water vapor and water ice have been detected on Mars, moons of other planets, and elsewhere in space.

Does that answer your question?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/12


"Heavens" refers to the atmosphere and the galaxies. In other words, the physical universe.
James_L on 8/14/12

its heaven not heavens, but atmosphere and the galaxies?

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Heaven is made, no earth with an atmosphere and no stars for galaxies.

So you must mean, he made the empty space, you know the room he was going to need.
Because, There no stars, no sun, no moon, not even an earth.
And you guys are calling this empty space, the physical universe!

But, what I read is it wasnt empty space.
Because there is a firmament there, Gen 1:7!
And he called that firmament, heaven!
Just saying?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/14/12


"Heavens" refers to the atmosphere and the galaxies. In other words, the physical universe.
---James_L on 8/14/12


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I understand that "heaven" can mean the universe other than the earth. But it says "the creation was subjected to futility," in Romans 8:20. So I can't say it was physical, at first. I consider that when Adam and Eve fell, God could have brought the universe down to their level so they could relate with it, and in order to resist them.

But He kept His holy angels spiritual. They were created before the universe. And Satan and his angels were beings of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). I don't think God who is good brought the spirit of evil into existence. So, He needs sewer vessels to take that filth to where it belongs.
---willie_c: on 8/14/12


Cluny, I do hear you!
You believe Gen 1 is about the actual physical universe and not heaven, in the spiritual sense!
That this heaven refers to the actual physical universe, only!

But then, it would stand to reason, if the word of God is all truth!
There must be (not water) but waters, be on this space you see in this actual physical universe!
Now do you believe this?

Is it safe to say Cluny, believe there are waters be on this actual physical universe.
If you believe the word of God is all truth, then you must believe this, right?!
There are waters at the end of the physical universe, space!
Gen_1:7 waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/13/12


Seems there is already a discussion on this very subject going on right now, specifically about the creation of angels, both holy and fallen.

It seems to me that Genesis 1 is discussing the creation of the physical universe, not the spiritual universe of angels.

But it's not a subject I stay up at night worrying about about. One's salvation hardly hangs upon this matter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/12


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