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Life Before Creation

Did mankind have a pre mortal existence like Christ? Note:(Jericho 1:5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Before you were born I sanctified you, I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

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Isaiah 43:1 "But now thus saith the Lord That created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, "Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine."

*Kinsman redeemer to Jacob:natural seed*
Israel defined: turn the Head of God - the prince that prevailed with God

Jn1:1-14[...]11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that...

(Believe on--His Name)[...]

Isaiah 40:5 "And The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Shalom
---char on 12/23/12


Ecc 3:15That which hath been is now, and that which is to be hath already been, and God requireth that which is past.

Ecc12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I Cor 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Cor 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Amen.
---char on 12/23/12


Jn1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word...

Col 1:14-17
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
---char on 12/23/12


2nd posting
Deut 29 (all)To the "Children of Israel"
(All 12 tribes as One nation) before the split of Houses

1 "These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make...

(With the Children of Israel)

in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which He made with them in Horeb."
2 "And Moses called unto ....(All Israel), [...]

[...]4 "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, ...

(Unto This day.")

Isaiah 29:24 "They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmered [rebel, grumble, participate]shall learn doctrine."
---char on 12/23/12


Repeat:Israel--God calls Chosen/Elect" Is 42,43,44,45,46 (all)

Deut 29 (all)To the "Children of Israel"
(Israel meaning All 12 tribes as One nation) before the split of Houses

1 "These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make (With the Children of Israel) in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which He made with them in Horeb."

2 "And Moses called unto (All Israel), [...]"Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land,"
[...]4 "Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."

continued'
---char on 12/23/12




Israel "chosen/elect" etc...
Judah(King line)Corrected Is 29(all)

("They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, they that murmered [rebel, grumble, participate]shall learn doctrine.")

1 "Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year, let them kill sacrifices."

*Ariel: Lion of El (Lion of God-House of Judah) Rev 5:5-6

10 "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered."

18 "And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness."
-Continued'
---char on 12/23/12


Char, I agree so much with what you posted,

"(Hearing comes) by the (Word of God)...then Faith By God confirming (His Word).
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and (Hearing) by the (Word of God)
The Word comes---First
Jn 16:7,Jn14:26,15:25"


Without the Word of God there is no salvation. And hearing comes by the Word of God. No one can make himself hear, see, or understand, God has to given them that ability.
(Deut. 29:2-4) explains that God has to give those abilities,
"...yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear to this very day"
---Mark_V. on 12/22/12


What does God confirm?
His Word----that--- comes first.

In the beginning was the Word...Jn1:1-14
And when the Spirit comes, He will guide you into all truths...
Heb 3(all)
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
1 Cor 2(all)
1Jn5(all), Jn14,15 (all)
I in you, you in me...

(Hearing comes) by the (Word of God)...then Faith By God confirming (His Word).

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and (Hearing) by the (Word of God)
The Word comes---First
Jn 16:7,Jn14:26,15:25

Ysha/Jesus Christ/Immanuel : God Savior-God with us
Praise God/His Mercy and Grace.
---char on 12/21/12


//jmarc on 12/21/12//--Another Amen.

Jn6[...]
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.[...]
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?[...]
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven[...]
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jn10:25, 14:12
So Thankful for(His Fruit)
Gal 5:22
Shalom
---char on 12/21/12


This statement is very true,

"Beautiful- Y-sh- a (parent root-two/three letters) to Yashua
Defined (God Savior)'


He is the Savior of sinful man, man cannot save themselves with their free will. If they have free will from God, they will never believe, understand spiritual truth.
They need the Holy Spirit to give them spiritual life. So they can understand, believe, and repent. For all the glory goes to God.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/12




Mark V, "J. Marc, you agreed with Char, and gave a passages that contains the reason she is wrong."

We have had this discussion before, yes, saved by grace and judged by works. Not the works and deeds of the law! Repentance must happen!

char was right!
This scripture proves it!

Revelation 20:12.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
---jmarc on 12/21/12


//---jmarc on 12/20/12//--A Big Amen.

Beautiful- Y-sh- a (parent root-two/three letters) to Yashua
Defined (God Savior)

He Exist:Savior
There is No Other

Shalom :)
---char on 12/21/12


J. Marc, you agreed with Char, and gave a passages that contains the reason she is wrong. Repentance saves so one. The Grace of God does. Luke 24:5) clearly declares that Jesus had to open their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Without Jesus doing this, they would have never understood anything Jesus did or had done or the Scriptures. It is the work of God not the work of man. Man without God can do nothing. Zero.
How many times will people read the Word of God and ignore it?
---Mark_V. on 12/21/12


Char, I agree with you!
Repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his [real] name!
P.s. i call him Yashua too! The real Christ!

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
---jmarc on 12/20/12


Char, I too disagree with you. You said,

"There is no other (remission) way to Elohyim as Father but through repentance in Jesus name.
Lk 24:47:"

That is not what the passage is saying. Only those who are already born of the God will repent. And that is why Luke tells them who are saved to preach repentance in His name. Unbelievers do not repent, they are dead in trespasses and sin. Only a child of God will repent. This are believers teaching other believers. For the word of God is only for the save to understand.
That is why the passage says,
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His (Name) among all nations, beginning at (Jerusalem)."
---Mark_V. on 12/20/12


I believe that the purpose of our lives here on earth is to prove ourselves to be worthy to return to Gods presence. I believe we are to be obedient to the ten Comanndments, to be baptized, etc. We made the choice to come to earth, there is a purpose, Jesus provided us an example and offered Himself as a ransom for our sins if we will but repent. The key is that we've been given the gift of making our own choices and must deal with the consequences of them as well.
---HappyLDS on 12/19/12


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God is sovereign and omniscient meaning He is all powerful and He knows and sees all. God knows the course of our lives because he sits outside of time. He knows our life's path even before we were born.
---Gumillionaire on 12/19/12


lds, God knows what is going to happen in the future...even the children you may have in the future. many things don't exist now that may exist in the future. how can a woman have an abortion for something not conceived?
---shira4368 on 12/17/12


The important thing to note is that God KNEW us before we were born. It appears that we existed as something.
---HappyLDS on 12/17/12


happy lds, jerimiah was conceived already but not yet born. God knew us from the foundation of the world. that does not mean we are spirit babies. that is so ridiculis to say the least.
---shira4368 on 12/15/12


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Hi Shira - I know that the scriptures can be twisted into other meanings (I'm not sure how they aren't obvious)...still, here are a few:

Jeremiah 1:5 The Lord says that He KNEW, ORDAINED, AND SANCTIFIED Jeremiah before he was born. Seems to imply that he was somewhere before coming to earth.
Job 38:1-7 - The Lord asks Job where he was when the foundation of the Earth was formed...he must have been somewhere - why the question? This includes the Morning Stars and Sons of God - they were somewhere as well.>
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - How does a spirit return to someplace it's never been?

You may not agree with our interpretation but I assure you that it isn't based on lsd...
---HappyLDS on 12/14/12


Hi Trey,
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the scripture found in Jeremiah. The fact is that any scripture I offer will be subject to interpretation of it's reader...which is why there is a need for prophets today - just as in ancient times. As in ancient times, prophets exist today and just as in ancient times, many are unable to see them as such. The prophets of ancient time were once modern day prophets to their neighbors. It's probably hard to imagine your neighbor as a prophet. I appreciate your love for the LDS people and assure you that our beliefs are indeed based in scripture.
---HappyLDS on 12/13/12


happy lds..almost sounds like lsd. no where in the bible does it say we were spirit babies before creation. that is such nonsense. you need to read God's Word and get away from joseph smith's word. he was just a sinner and he is carrying many to hell with his doctrine.
---shira4368 on 12/13/12


OK HappyLDS, please give me some scripture from the KJV where we existed as spirit babies.

Jeremiah (not Jericho) 1:5 is speaking of the Lord's omniscients. God knew us before we existed.

Happy, I lived in SLC for several years and have many LDS friends in UT and TX. I love my friends who are LDS. They are very moral, zealous, family oriented, and wonderful, but your religion grieves me to the heart. Your religion does not match up with scripture and where it contradicts LDS turn to the Book of Mormons. I pray that the Lord open your eyes.
---trey on 12/11/12


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I have no doubt that we existed as spirit children of a Heavenly Father prior to coming to earth. I believe this life is a test of obedience - that Jesus Christ offered his life as a ransom for our sins. All we need do is obey His commandments (they aren't suggestions) and do those things which He has commanded - such as baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. We are forgiven as we truly repent. Many of you take joy in belittling the LDS and it's okay if doing so gives you joy. My joy comes from the knowledge I have of where I came from, who I am, why I'm here and where I'll be going after this life. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is truly simple.
---HappyLDS on 12/11/12


continued'
No other (remission) Way to Elohyim as Father but through repentance in Jesus Name.

Zech14:9 [...] His Name is One

Jn1:1-14In the beginning was the Word[...]became flesh and dwelt among us.

Is 43(all)To Israel (God calls Chosen)

[...]I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no saviour.[...] I have declared, [...]saved, [...]shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that (I am) God.

Is 44:6-7
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last-beside me there is no God.

Ysha: "Light of the World"
Those In-Christ: "Light of the World"
Jn14,15
---char on 12/11/12


Following the (path/way) - In Christ
"light of the World"

Jn14(all)
12 [...]Verily, verily, I say unto you, (He that believeth on me), the works that I do shall (he do also, and greater works than these shall he do), because I go unto my Father.)[...]
Jn 8:(all)
12 [...](I am the light of the world: he that followeth me) shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the (light) of life.
[...]Ye judge after the flesh, I judge no man[...]
(I Am One) the bear witness of Myself, and the Father That sent Me beareth witness of Me.[...]

Gal 5:22-23Fruit...
---char on 12/11/12


Israel: Chosen as witness the He Is (Exist) God. Is43(all)

[...]I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no saviour.[...] I have declared, [...]saved, [...]shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore

(ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that (I am) God.)

Paul: from the (tribe of Benjamin) Rom11:1
Nationally of the Kingdom of Judah (tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and part of Levi)

Chosen: Acts 9:1-15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear (My Name) before the (Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:)

Believers: The fruit is given:
Gal 5:22-23

continued'
---char on 12/11/12


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Believers-The fruit is given.
Here is what is written,


Matt 7:16-20(all)
[...]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Fruit that grows from God who is love and you will know them by their fruit

continued'
---char on 12/11/12


"a pre mortal existence?"

Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
---j_Marc on 12/11/12


Quoting John 6:65 is an excellent confirmation that salvation in Christ is indeed the work of God 100%. That the sinner unless being given to the Son by the Father can never on their own accord ever go to the Son for salvation. The sinner goes to the Son is because the Father has drawn him (John 6:44), which is also known as Grace.

One wonders when one quote John 6:65 that they even understand that they are saying "free-will" is nothing but a vain imagination of a darken heart.
---christan on 12/11/12


Jn 6:65 "And He said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father."

Jn 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

Why?

There is no other (remission) way to Elohyim as Father but through repentance in Jesus name.
Lk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His (Name) among all nations, beginning at (Jerusalem).

Name Jesus/Ysha defined: God is Savior
Immanuel: God with us
Calling upon the name of Jesus-- is calling on God/Elohyim as Savior.

There is no salvation in any other. Is43:11-12,44:6-7,45:5-6
---char on 12/10/12


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As with ALL the epistles written, they are clearly addressed to only God's people, now known as the Christians.

When Paul wrote Philippians 2:3, the admonishment were to only Christians, for he wrote in verse 5, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". Unbelievers are never in Christ, period.

And how do we tell one is an unbeliever of the Word? Jesus warns, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" And one sure confession is when one says they have the "free-will" to go to Christ when He declared otherwise in the Scriptures.

Quoting Philippians doesn't absolve one of unbelief in God.
---christan on 12/11/12


I will leave your witness of me and tone for God to judge.
Before God and brothers and sisters In-Christ...

Here is my intention,

Phil2 (all)
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.[...]


And I praise Him that He alone knows my heart and intention.
God is the only true judge-
To God be the glory.
Ysha: defined God is savior

With that being said, I will continue and again say...

Do Not believe my words or any other mans word.
Only the Word of God is truth.

Aleph to Tav
---char on 12/10/12


"God chose (elect-set aside ones) before the foundation of this world/age/ion as witness that His Is (Exist) God. The way for others to accomplish their place of rest [noah]is In Christ." char

What theology is this? All because you want to wedgie your "free-will" into the salvation plan of God? Are you serious? You're witnessing something that's not even taught in the Scriptures.

ONLY the elect of God by His Sovereign Grace in Christ will be in heaven, no one else. To say that some can still choose is blasphemy. Jesus explicitly declared:

"Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65.
---christan on 12/10/12


Jeremiah (Prophet of God) father was Hilkiah (Priest of Judah)-Not-Jeremiah (son of Habziniah) Head of the House of the Rechabites 1Chr 2:55, Jer35:3.

God chose (elect-set aside ones) before the foundation of this world/age/ion as witness that His Is (Exist) God. The way for others to accomplish their place of rest [noah]is In Christ.(anoint-Word of God-Aleph/Tav)

Gen 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth:"[sheyt]

[Sheyt] root word "to set something in place"---Establish

Lineage of His Word in Flesh: Immanuel (God with us)

His Word[Ysha] is set in place Jn1:1,3:16


Repentance unto remission
---char on 12/10/12


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Sis. Shira, the passage is found in (Jeremiah 1:5). This is not incarnation, it is God's all knowing cognizance of Jeremiah and sovereign plan for him before he was conceived. Paul similar realization in (Gal. 1:15)
"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..."
Paul is not talking about being born, separated physically from his mother, but being separated or set apart to God for service from the time of his birth. The phrase refers to God's election of Paul without regard for his personal merits or effort.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/12


Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Heb: [yirm yahu] whom YHVH raises up, or Launches forth
To whom the Word of the Lord came...

I knew:
Chosen: "set aside/apart"
Jer 1:9 "Then the Lord put forth His hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, " Behold, (I have put my words) in thy mouth."

God sanctified him and set apart ordained prophet, not only to Judah but to the nations also.
---char on 12/10/12


where is the book jerico in the bible. I looked in mine and couldn't find it. If God had wanted us to know certain things, He would have had them in the bible.
---shira4368 on 12/10/12


Hebrew perspective:

They cannot see what is in back of them, therefore, the future is behind them.
They can see what is in front of them, therefore, the past is before them.

God is (Exist) Timeless- He is the beginning/end of all things, all things begin and end with/in Him

Word of God-Aleph to Tav:
Ecc 3:15 "That which hath been is now, and that which is to be hath already been, and God requireth that which is past."

Is 46 (all)
10 "Declaring the end from the beginning,(and) from ancient times the (things that are not yet done)[...]

Heb 11:3, Jn1:1, Job38:7
---char on 12/10/12


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I believe that God knowing us before we were born means that He formed us so He knew exactly how we would turn out. We are the product of mum and dad and take on their likeness, their habits and interests exactly. God knew in advance who would marry whom and, therefore, how we'd turn out.

He guides us to our mate, if we ignore His guidance He still knows who we will gravitate towards and who we will procreate with.

In other words - He knows it all but that does not mean we had a pre-existence.

The day will come when we'll know all these details so I don't worry about them in the here and now.
---Rita_H on 12/9/12


Brent: I always assumed there that God meant that He could know us even before we were made.

But there is the other question as well: To be in time, as on great thinker of the 20th century said, is to be limited: God is of course not in time, because He is always...... So He knows always everything.
---Peter on 12/9/12


Q:Did mankind have a pre mortal existence like Christ?

A:I believe that Christ is unique. Philippians 2:6, "He existed in the form of God."

Jeremiah 1:5 is concerning that prophet. It speaks of God's omniscience and omnipresence.

All of Psalm 139 does also. Verses 13-15 speaks of the Psalmist in the womb. Verse 16 says, "In your book they were all written of the days ordained for me when as yet there was not one."

It isn't premortal of all. But preknowledge of all.
---jan4378 on 12/8/12


An essential attribute of The God, The Creator of the universe, is absolute knowledge. That is, His knowledge is not learned knowledge or knowledge acquired through our very limited understanding of the means of gaining knowledge. And indeed, Gods knowledge is not simply comprehensive or is made better with the passage of time. God knows every detail about everything, before anything was created!

And even in stating that reality, our minds find great difficulty in managing the notions of absoluteness and infiniteness. Yet, by purely inadequate and inappropriate human speech, God is absolute in every way!
---Allan on 11/17/12


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The answer is NO! The knowing is more than an acquaintance. It means approval or selection. Ps. 127:3, says that "sons are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. This indicates that not only the soul, but also the entire person of the child, including his or her body is a gift from God. From this standpoint, it seems strange to think of the mother and father as being responsible by themselves for ANY aspect of the child's existence. Was it not the Lord who, David says, "knit me together in my mother's womb" [Ps. 139:13]?
---pat on 11/16/12


There is very little information on the joys of Heaven, or the horrors of Hell, as it does not directly affect our lives here. I dont believe that there is a particular verse(s) that speaks to this subject. Jeremiah 1:5 shows that God is omniscient.
---Glenn on 9/20/12


The Lord Jesus had a pre-deity existence (he was spirit) it would be impossible for him to have had a pre-mortal existence (mortal life has an end) because the Lord had always existed before he became flesh. If God is all knowing, creator of all, then he would know who he would call out of this world. God can predict the future of mankind he would foreknow man before he was formed. Today is not the only day of salvation.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/20/12


Trey: I thought he was Catholic.


---jerry6593 on 8/25/12


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Hi Jerry, AMEN! God was speaking of his foreknowledge of his children! The definition of foreknowledge is really "fore love". God loved his children before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).
By the way, my guess is Gordon's doctrine is LDS.
---trey on 8/23/12


**************

Gordon: "The souls were created and were just spirit-beings. Then, one-by-one, GOD placed each soul into the physical bodies created and formed in-the-womb on Earth, as mankind pro-created and multiplied itself across the Globe."

Where do you get this stuff? Certainly not from the Bible! It looks more like science fiction or Mormon theology.

Just because God can see the future, doesn't mean that we existed before we were born.

****************

---jerry6593 on 8/23/12


"No theory here and there is no conspiracy." aka

Agreed...I think = )
---scott on 8/21/12


1Jn 1:1-2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us,)

Im sorry guys!
But, if you just look at this question, you should have your answer.
Did mankind have a pre mortal existence like Christ?

Christ knew the Father, Im using the word KNEW in MORE then the BROADEST possible way, KNOWN!
Christ said I and my Father are one! Can anyone who has ever existed say this?
Has God ever pointed to another man and said, This is my beloved son!

If anyone feel like man preexisted, with God, like Christ!
Well then why didnt HE know the Father at birth!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/21/12


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scott, there is no theory here and there is no conspiracy.
---aka on 8/20/12


"Not all of us have the same advantages here."- aka

Aka, you didn't strike me as the "Conspiracy Theory" type!
---scott on 8/20/12


if God exists outside of our dimension or time, there is no reason for human souls to pre-exist since God can well know each of us, having the ability to see outside of our time frame.
---chip on 8/19/12


Brent, I am in the agreement that the souls of mankind existed before the Earth was created. The souls were created and were just spirit-beings. Then, one-by-one, GOD placed each soul into the physical bodies created and formed in-the-womb on Earth, as mankind pro-created and multiplied itself across the Globe. But, the souls of mankind were CREATED by Almighty GOD (before they were sent to the Earth). Our souls did not exist from "Eternity Past" like GOD does. We are finite, created beings who are subject to our Creator GOD.
---Gordon on 8/19/12


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Fullness - part 2

Scott then claims he "answered [my question]." Not so: Scott merely identified other instances of "fullness" (Eph 1:23, 3:19), thus attempting to erase any difference between Paul's Colossians' claim concerning Christ (i.e. the whole creation's Creator and Sustaining Principle) and Paul's Ephesians' wish for us true believers. However, as usual, Scott amateurishly ignored the grammar CONTEXT. Colossians is in the INDICATIVE mood, Ephesians the SUBJUNCTIVE. Chalk and cheese, mate...and still waiting for a non-indirect answer, Scott!!!!!
---Marc on 8/19/12


Scott had you answered Marc's very pertinent question then you would not have been pursued. Don't blame Marc. Answer the question.
---Warwick on 8/19/12


scott, we all got bad form. that is why we all need a savior. this format also does not lend itself to better form, and lastly, not all of us have the same advantages here.

i just am tired of the trinitarian argument, which opens the err of each side.
---aka on 8/19/12


Marc & Warwick highjacking, yet another, unrelated thread-

Bad form. Start another blog on the topic.
---scott on 8/19/12


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scott1 does not equal scott

please do not make this another argument about the trinity.

elohim existed before recorded time. father, holy ghost, son. they are not persons. they are spirit for God(liness) is spirit. one spirit became flesh for a brief time to redeem the nonredeemable.

the three together form a divinity or a godliness, godhead, hierarchy...whatever you want to call it. perhaps the best word is a kingdom.

there is no "God" made up by three persons. a spirit is neither a person nor a personality.
---aka on 8/19/12


I don't see anything wrong in the blog question. We do know some passages teach that God knew us before we were born. We also know as Leon stated that God formed a plan and that as the Ultimate Architect, His plan included every aspect needed for a perfect plan. "Working all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).
And since He is an Omniscient God, had to know, in His mind, how many individuals would be included in His plan, when and where they would be born, and to whom they would be born to. Nothing is by chance. Nothing or no one can take God by suprise. If they could, they themselves would be Gods.
---Mark_V. on 8/19/12


'Fullness' - part 1

Elsewhere Scott deceivingly, by only partially quoting me, wrote "Still waiting for [Scott] to explain...the fullness." Everyone, note the ellipsis. Scott, in another demonstration of Watchtower dishonesty, omits the heart of my actual question: "how logically and ontologically a finite, non-eternal creature (Michael the angel) can contain ALL the fullness of an eternal, infinite Being (YHWH).
---Marc on 8/19/12


Marc, I believe you will be waiting a long time for an answer from Scott. The term 'till hell freezes over' comes to mind. I am off OS soon and won't be back until November. I think you will still be waiting when I return. Les raisins attendre aucun homme.
---Warwick on 8/18/12


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Cliff said: "Yes Scott you are the product of "random luck" like all of us! (the balance of million sperm that accompanied you to the womb perished,only you made it)"

Cliff, whole university faculties, for centuries, have been given over to thinking about whether or not you are defined by your brown hair or black, tall or short or, wait for it, a soul.

In any case, a sperm does not equal you, for a sperm is not life, not even half a life. It's a package of genetic material.
---Marc on 8/17/12


Scott,

We Trinitarians, that group of people who were the foundation members of the Church, are still waiting for you to explain how logically and ontologically a finite, non-eternal creature (Michael the angel) can contain ALL the fullness of an eternal, infinite Being (YHWH).

Quick, give NY a call. I believe the telephone code for Brooklyn is 718, oh but I guess you already know that.
---Marc on 8/17/12


scott1, i do not think you read my whole response.
---aka on 8/16/12


I believe, in order to answer this question correctly, we must really get it into our minds that God is All-Knowing (Omniscient). That means there's nothing God doesn't know. In holy scripture, God gives testimony to this fact in Jeremiah 1:5.

Instead of random chance, I see the purpose for our human existence as being in God's divine, calculated & orchestrated plan. Again, by His written word, He has said His infinite (limitless) ways are higher than our limited abilities.
---Leon on 8/16/12


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Persons are free to draw their own conclusions.
Consider=God told Adam "be fruitful multiply"...etc
So this mandate was given to Adam and his descendants to procreate..
So obviously He didn't intend to create "each human" the way He created Angelic creatures!
Yes Scott you are the product of "random luck" like all of us! (the balance of million sperm that accompanied you to the womb perished,only you made it)
In Vitro fertilization (and sperm banks) are not "natural selection" but created birth!
BTW God created the human head so He would know the standard number of hairs!
---1st_cliff on 8/16/12


No we do not have a premortal existence. GOD just happens to know us before we are born since He is GOD.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/12


aka, 1st cliff

Actually this is a very big point. Does God know you or are you just a random luck of the draw. If you are just random luck then why would I want to serve and love Him, when he has no authority on my life. I would not call it pre-mortal existence like the mormons believe but He is an all-powerful God who knows the number of hairs on my head, and when I wake or sleep before I was born. And yes he does know what sperm and egg I would come from.
---Scott1 on 8/16/12


Yes in the viewpoint we are known and have personal knowledge to God before we are created on this earth. This verse speaks of the fact that God created you. Thus you are uniquely created "...for such a time as this" (Ester). With a specific purpose. "For I know the plans I have for you... plans to prosper you and...give you hope and future" Jeremiah 29:11.
---Scott1 on 8/16/12


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Brent, 1st of all there's no book of Jericho.
I think you mean Jeremiah who God pre-knew but this does not mean he knows every person before birth.
That would be a presumption.
In perspective=
Each male ejaculation produces millions of sperm,taking just "one" to produce a human plus "one" of the thousands of egg from the female.
So our chances of being here at all are millions to one,meaning God would have to know each sperm and egg in the world that meet,many are stillborn,deformed or aborted, totaly rediculous!
---1st_cliff on 8/15/12


No.

Belief in a heretofore was condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/15/12


it amazes me all the ways that people come up with things to discuss. Why do we argue over minute points that have nothing to do to what we can do today for each other.

so be it...it was written before this that God breathed life into Adam (mankind). so, there is no indication that mankind existed before that. just because He knew a spirit centuries after the creation of mankind does not mean the first man pre-existed.
---aka on 8/16/12


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