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Explain Pro Choice To Me

I saw a sign that reads:

Pro Choice doe not mean Pro Abortion

Can someone explain what this is supposed to mean?

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 ---James_L on 8/17/12
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umbers 5:27
NIV: her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry,

Amplified: her body to swell and her thigh to fall away,

God's word translated: Her stomach will swell, her uterus will drop,

Different bible version use different terms in the end two option remain 1: Lose the baby or 2: Conceive seed.

If the seed was not given in every text, we could remove the possibility of a terminated pregnancy, but every version has two options: Lose the baby by shrinking uterus or conceive seed.

I already gave a text where the man is guilty of taking the life of a child.

Ask yourself, if her uterus shrinks WHAT can the man be guilty of, not adultery, but taking the life of a baby
---francis on 8/25/12


yeah...i think God turned me around pretty well. otherwise, i would still call it abortion.

i finally realized when i got older that sin (blatant or not) has direct/indirect and immediate/latent ramifications. i cannot repay the debt, and fortunately that is done for me. but, now, i call it what it is.
---aka on 8/25/12


Francis, I was talking about the guilt of voters who vote in support of legalized abortion. People like you who support legalized abortion and yet say they wouldn't get an abortion, they are just as guilty as those who actually get abortions. Because you have the ability to vote to stop this evil practice and yet you support it, or at very least, you sit by and do nothing while it happens, according to the Bible, you are guilty for all the thousands of babies that are killed every day.
---Jed on 8/25/12


Those who support others in their sin are guilty of the same sin themselves.
---Jed on 8/24/12

when i was younger, i paid for an abortion and i was not the father. i am just as guilty of murder if not more because i am a man.
---aka on 8/24/12

Yes, that is true. Hopefully, you have repented and asked God to remove this guilt.
---Jed on 8/25/12


francis, again your adding to Scripture what is not there at all. You said the Passage is saying,

"If she was pregnant by another man, her belly woould swell, and her womb would shrink, she would lose the seed/ baby"

No where does it say she was pregant by another man. It says she was unfaithful. Her belly swelled because of what she drank. And no where does it say she would lose the baby. Just nonsense. Again adding to the word of God was in not there. God said,
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you," (Deut. 4:2).
You say you obey God and His commandments and here you add to His word.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/12




It also means that you do not have a baby because you are forced to by threat of imprisonment, you have a baby because it is the right thing to do

this theory placates people who become pregnant by their choices and hope we can persuade them to not kill their baby? God never endorsed or approved of killing a babies. To deliberately malign one scripture in the OT as a claim it supports abortion when Gods law says do not kill is evil. Demonstrating how double minded many people are on their covert support of legalized killing of babies. mass human genocide worldwide every year 42 million baby killings
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/25/12


*************

Francis: "Yet the bible says that in this particular case, where this adulterous wife loses the seed that the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity. Numbers 5:31"

No, no, NO! I don't know what Bible version you are using, but numbers 5:31 makes no mention of "losing her seed" whatever. You have invented that interpretation - probably because you think that pregnancy is the only thing that can swell the belly. It is not. Bacterial infections can have the same effect.

*****************
---jerry6593 on 8/25/12


i paid for an abortion..i am just as guilty of murder if not more because i am a man.
---aka on 8/24/12
VERY TRUE


Yet the bible says that in this particular case, where this adulterous wife loses the seed that the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity. Numbers 5:31

In other cases when a man causes a woman to lose a child he is held guilty:

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exodus 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
---francis on 8/25/12


Those who support others in their sin are guilty of the same sin themselves.
---Jed on 8/24/12

when i was younger, i paid for an abortion and i was not the father. i am just as guilty of murder if not more because i am a man.
---aka on 8/24/12


People have the right to CHOOSE to sin or not to sin as they like. ---jerry6593 on 8/24/12

Those who support others in their sin are guilty of the same sin themselves.
---Jed on 8/24/12

Yet the bible says that in this particular case, where this adulterous wife loses the seed that the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity. Numbers 5:31

If this were only about adultery and the life of an innocent baby were not at stake, why even consider guilt on the man's side?
---francis on 8/24/12




The test was to show if she was unfaithful or not, it had nothing whatsoever to do with abortion. You have given the passages again another meaning.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/12
Numbers 5:27 if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, ..her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

If she was pregnant by another man, her belly woould swell, and her womb would shrink, she would lose the seed/ baby

Numbers 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean, then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

If she was pregnant with her husbands seed she would have the child/ seed.

again you are dead wrong
---francis on 8/24/12


francis, what the passages in (Numbers 5:27) mean, is that she was suppose to drink the bitter water which included dust from the tabernacle floor (5:17) and the ink used to write the curse (5:23). The woman was to drink the water (5:26), if the woman was guilty of been unfaithful, the water would make her life bitter by carrying out the curse of making her thigh rot and her belly swell (5:21,27). The penalty for the guilty wife was obvious, since the death penalty was called for it. In contrast, the innocent wife was assured she would live to bring forth children.
The test was to show if she was unfaithful or not, it had nothing whatsoever to do with abortion. You have given the passages again another meaning.
---Mark_V. on 8/24/12


People have the right to CHOOSE to sin or not to sin as they like. ---jerry6593 on 8/24/12

Those who support others in their sin are guilty of the same sin themselves. I didn't say that, the Bible does. So those who vote for legalized abortion are actually guilty of haveing an abortion themselves. The Bible also tells us when someone knows to do something and they don't do it, it is a sin. If you have the ability to stop evil and you don't do it, then you have participated in it and are just as guilty as the person who did it. That's what the Bible says. Voters have the ability to put an end to abortion. If you don't vote against abortion, you are guilty of it.
---Jed on 8/24/12


*************

All abortion is murder. All murder is sin. People have the right to CHOOSE to sin or not to sin as they like. Of course, there will be consequences for our choices!

*************
---jerry6593 on 8/24/12


Pro Choice Does Not Mean Pro Abortion
---James_L on 8/23/12


When someone says, I think that people should have the right to choose abortions in some conditions, but my prayer is that they do not, they choose to bring their child into this earth, maybe you can understand what it is to have a choice and make a choice for life. It also means that you do not have a baby because you are forced to by threat of imprisonment, you have a baby because it is the right thing to do
---francis on 8/23/12


If you are for abortion being legal then you are pro-abortion, whether you would have one or not. Just like someone who wants same-sex marriage to be legal is for "marriage equality", even if they themselves are heterosexual and would never get a same-sex marriage. It's simple, if you believe abortion is a right and should be a choice, then you are pro-abortion. Trying to disguise yourself as "pro-choice" to make yourself feel better is a joke that everyone can see right through.
---Jed on 8/23/12


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francis,
I'm not trying to debate the issue of abortion at all, and I hope it hasn't come across that way.

All I was looking for is a concrete, objective explanation for the words I saw:
Pro Choice Does Not Mean Pro Abortion

and trying to figure out, why do some people say this, and then spend so much time defending abortion?

I could comprehend it, if your energy was directed at defending the choice.

I'll leave it at that.
---James_L on 8/23/12


James_L i respect your right, based on your understanding of this text to be against all abortion. I have no issues with that.
---francis on 8/23/12


"shall conceive seed"
seems to mean she is NOT pregnant. Right ??
---James_L on 8/23/12

Biblically speaking, women do not have seed. that is why this refers to a pregnant woman one who already has the seed in her


A person that is against abortion would not spend their time defending and justifying why they feel abortion is acceptable.
---Jed on 8/22/12
Unless ofcourse you read numbers 5, and see that it is perfectly acceptable under certain condition to terminate a pregnancy


James_L said he is 100% against divorce, no exception, and Jesus gave an exception

My whole point is this: As christians, let you choice be informed by GOD not GOD or DNC
---francis on 8/23/12


\\I do not know is always a good answer.\\
---francis

Why not? At least it's honest. There are scholars who have devoted years to studying Hebrew, and cannot say with any certainty what the phrase means.

\\her thigh rotting does not literally mean thigh rotting\\
---francis
Then what does it "literally" mean? Are you saying "I don't know" ???

\\ "womb to shrivel"...terminate the pregnancy. But if she is innocent, she will have the baby....and shall conceive seed\\
---francis

"shall conceive"
seems to mean she is NOT pregnant. Right ??
---James_L on 8/23/12


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\\A person that is against abortion would not spend their time defending and justifying why they feel abortion is acceptable.\\
---Jed on 8/22/12


I agree, Jed.

Why is it, when others have railed against the abortions, francis cannot answer:

"Hey, I don't like abortion, either."

Why is it that he's justifying the abortions, and with a very suspect "provisional clause" ??

I've been researching abortion stats, and have not found even one case where the father is requesting one on the grounds of infidelity. Are there any?
---James_L on 8/23/12


I am not certain that the phrase in question means that.
---James_L on 8/22/12
I do not know is always a good answer.

Now somethings in the bible are very polite, like Saul covering his feet, her thigh rotting does not literally mean thigh rotting, but rather her" womb to shrivel" thus she would terminate the pregnancy. But if she is innocent, she will have the baby: verse 28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean, then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed


I will not EVER defend someone's "right" to choose divorce.
---James_L on 8/22/12

Yet, Jesus did: Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
---francis on 8/23/12


//I answered you two times. // francis

my questions were yes/no. therefore, you did not answer.

i did not really think you would.
---aka on 8/22/12


francis,

I think you're making a huge assumption that the woman in question would have been pregnant.

I am not certain that the phrase in question means that.

And asking "What else could it be?" doesn't sufficiently answer the question posed to you - where do you read that a pregnancy is involved?

Josephus (about 100AD) believed that the swelled belly and rotted thigh would have been dropsy. And from every indication in his writing, believed the woman was not pregnant
(Antiquities of the Jews, book III,11:6)
---James_L on 8/22/12


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---James_L is it my turn to ask you a question?

Not yet?
well when it is my turn this is what I would like to ask:


Numbers 5:27 her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot:

What does this phrase mean?
what happens to the pregnancy when her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot:?
---francis on 8/22/12


francis,

Let me give you a comparison. I am 100%, EVERY instance, against divorce.

battered spouse? Not good enough

Adultery? not good enough

Irresponsible spouse? Not good enough

I don't like him/her anymore? Not good enough

God gave a "provision" because of the hardness of a man's heart?
NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO DEFEND IT ! !

You made your bed, SLEEP IN IT ! !

THAT is what it means to be 100% against something. I will not EVER defend someone's "right" to choose divorce.

Even if you THINK that God gave a provision in certain contexts, being 100% against abortion means that you would not keep coming back with a supposed "provisional clause"
---James_L on 8/22/12


Numbers 5:27 her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot:
1 Samuel 24:3 and Saul went in to cover his feet

What do these two phrases mean
---francis on 8/22/12


A person that is against abortion would not spend their time defending and justifying why they feel abortion is acceptable.
---Jed on 8/22/12


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Yet, every post since then, you have never once spoekn against abortion.
---James_L on 8/22/12

Do you thik that repeating is what makes a thing true?

If I say one time I am againt abortion should I say it many times to make it true?

tell me how many times must a thing be said before itis true?

Is there a number of times that I must say it to make it true?
---francis on 8/22/12


\\many of us ( pro choice) believe that everyone has the right to choose, yet we would have everyone choose life rather than abortion.\\
---francis on 8/18/12


This is what I'm talking about, francis.

and...

\\I am 100% pro choice, yet I do not beleive that women should abort thier babies.

\\I am 100% against abortions.

\\The idea that someone can be pro choice, and against the act of abortion is baffling to those who have been brainwashed by the GOP.\\
---francis on 8/18/12


Yet, every post since then, you have never once spoekn against abortion.

And you have not defended the choice, but the abortion itself.
---James_L on 8/22/12


Francis, again, you're giving your own meaning to these scriptures. Why don't you just post the scriptures how they are instead of adding to them with your own opinion of what they mean and your own wording. What you are saying is not what the Bible says. Abortion was not a practice among God's people as it was obviously murder.
---Jed on 8/22/12


My point is that IF this happens it is Gods decree and not OURS. A woman does NOT have a choice as to whether or not she aborts a life that God started in her womb. It is up to the Creator to decide whether or not that child lives or dies, not us!
---LindaH on 8/22/12


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Numbers 5:27 her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot:

If you do not know that this phrase discribes the termination of a pregnancy, you should not be in an abortion debate as a christian

As a christian, If you do not know what this phrase means, you opinion is as valuable as what Saud did when he covered his feet
1 Samuel 24:3 and Saul went in to cover his feet
---francis on 8/22/12


Francis - Linda H and I were not questioning that the verse says "and her thy shall rot". It's the fact that you gave this phrase your own little meaning that we do not agree with. This verse by no means describes an abortion procedure. And the fact that you could scew a simple scripture as this to such an extent that you give a completely different meaning leaves me to question if you have the ability to understand the meaning of any passage of scripture. How many other scriptures do you twist in order to fit your own agenda? Anyone who would actually try to use bible verses to justify abortion is plain sick.
---Jed on 8/22/12


---LindaH on 8/21/12
---Jed on 8/21/12
Look up the phrase Numbers 5:27 "and her thigh shall rot"
In EVERY bible version.


---James_L on 8/21/12
Your questions was honest, I answered it honestly with biblical verses. I do not recall using the phrase " a woman's right to choose." If I did ( I may have I do not recall) please post it.


francis, one at a time...i am asking you...

1) if my son curses me, should I put my son to death? yes or no...simple as that.
---aka on 8/21/12
I answered you two times. Surely I have not told you to kill you son!! Where did you hear of killing your son if he curses you, and do you trust the source from which you got that information?
---francis on 8/22/12


It allows the wife to go through a procedue at the command of her husband, and if she is defiled, the pregnancy is terminated---Francis

That is NOT what that passage of scripture says! WOW! That scripture says NOTHING of the child being aborted. It says her belly will swell and her thigh rot away and the woman will be cursed among the people for her sin.

And you dare spit the 10 commandments at everyone else while you justify abortion?

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
---LindaH on 8/21/12


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Numbers 5:27 "and her thigh shall rot"
This phrase is translates to mean that she will lose the baby. ---francis on 8/21/12

Translated by who? You?
---Jed on 8/21/12


francis,

I asked the original question to honestly try to understand teh mindset of someone who agrees with the sign I saw, Pro Choice Does Not Mean Pro Abortion

You said earlier in the thread that you are 100% against abortion, but that you are for a woman's right to choose to have one.

BUT,

Why is it, that your arguments have been defending the abortions themselves, instead of simply defending a woman's right to choose one?

100% against abortion?

This is why I asked the question in the first place. The person who posted this on Facebook has defended nothing except abortion itself. Same as you.

What gives, francis?
---James_L on 8/21/12


francis, one at a time...i am asking you...

1) if my son curses me, should I put my son to death? yes or no...simple as that.
---aka on 8/21/12


As a christian, my views on abortion must start with what God says in his word.

God himself gave a law, called: the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled, Numbers 5:29

It allows the wife to go through a procedue at the command of her husband, and if she is defiled, the pregnancy is terminated.

If we as christians would start with the word of God concerning termination of a pregnancy, rather that the political platforms of men, would we not have a stronger foundation to build upon?
---francis on 8/21/12


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francis, answer the questions.
---aka on 8/20/12
I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if it is true that God commanded these things?



Francis: I think that you're way off base in thinking that Numbers 5:11-31 refers to abortion.
---jerry6593 on 8/21/12

Numbers 5:27 "and her thigh shall rot"
This phrase is translates to mean that she will lose the baby.
The pregnancy will be terminated, hence the the baby, fetus, zygot will be aborted.

Notice that this is the CHOICE of the husband.
---francis on 8/21/12


francis, answer the questions.
---aka on 8/21/12


1) if my son curses me, should I put my son to death? yes or no...simple as that.
---aka on 8/20/12

Two questions to any the first one:
1: Where did you read that?
2: Do you trust that source?

About the woman caught in adultery: Where was the man with whom she committed adultery?
---francis on 8/20/12


Francis: I think that you're way off base in thinking that Numbers 5:11-31 refers to abortion. It refers to a levitical test for adultery, but does not mention anything about miscarriage or abortion.

According to the Bible, life begins at conception. Hence, all abortion is murder, and ALL Christians should be against it, period.


---jerry6593 on 8/21/12


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francis, i am asking you...

1) if my son curses me, should I put my son to death? yes or no...simple as that.

2) are you saying that Jesus defied his own Father by not putting the adulteress to death. he said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone. he was without sin, therefore He disobeyed His Father? is that correct? simple yes or no will do.
---aka on 8/20/12


Jed This question went way way way above your head.
---francis on 8/20/12

No, apparently it's over your head. Your the one who thinks a miscarriage and an abortion are the same thing, for crying out loud. Talk about ignorant. You're actually on here saying that you want legalized abortion but you are not pro-abortion. What a contradiction. Your logic cracks me up.
---Jed on 8/20/12


---Jed on 8/20/12
This question went way way way above your head.

---aka on 8/20/12
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Are you questioning the things which God commanded? or are you questioning me about what God commanded?
---francis on 8/20/12


One thing to consider is the context and practice of the first-born rule, birth right, and lineage which is passed through the first son.
Also take a look at this Law from Joseph (adopted father of Jesus) point of view who before the angel told him the true story about Mary and her pregnancy was willing to simple divorce and not make a spectacle of her "unfaithfulness" (not true due to HS) and making the grace he showed her even more important.
---Scott1 on 8/20/12


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Francis, you seriously don't know the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion? You're on the wrong site. You need to visit some health sites and read some middle-school text books and learn what an abortion is and what a miscarriage is. Sheesh, I have actually never met anyone before who didn't know what an abortion and a miscarriage is. When you think you've heard it all...
---Jed on 8/20/12


And you know, I did not make it up. It is in the bible
---francis on 8/19/12

flash to Deut 20: if my child gets out of line..curses me. should i be 1st in line to put hime to death? it is in the bible.

//2: Why does God allow human beings to initiate a process which guaranties the termination of a pregnancy if the child is a child of adultery?// ---francis on 8/19/12

why didn't jesus cast the first stone at the adulteress? after, he ws without sin. he was breaking the law...wasn't he?

is your christ of mercy or murder?
---aka on 8/20/12


"spontaneous abortion," as opposed to "induced abortion."
---Cluny on 8/19/12
I like that!! A misscariage occurs without human intent. key would here being intent to terminate a pregnancy, whereas an abortion in a human intent and success in terminating a pregnancy.

what we read in Numbers 5:11-31 is God giving the husband a choice if his wife has committed adultery and is pregnant.

He can either accept the baby, or he can take action to have that pregnancy terminated. In either case the choice is that of the jealous husband


dude, that is messed up on so many levels.
---aka on 8/19/12
And you know, I did not make it up. It is in the bible
---francis on 8/19/12


\\So the word of God is not absolulutely against termination of a pregnancy in certain cases ( adultery)
---francis on 8/19/12\\

Why execute the baby for the sin of the parents?

Even the OT says, "The soul that sins shall die"--and this does NOT mean that souls die, btw. Read it in context.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/12


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I think all Christians who intend to take a stance on abortion MUST read

Numbers 5:11-31 and ask yourself two questions:
1: What is the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?
2: Why does God allow human beings to initiate a process which guaranties the termination of a pregnancy if the child is a child of adultery?
---francis on 8/19/12
---francis on 8/19/12


\\1: What is the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?\\

Actually, nothing in medical terms. "Miscarriage" is not a medical term, which is rather, "spontaneous abortion," as opposed to "induced abortion."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/12


So the word of God is not absolulutely against termination of a pregnancy in certain cases ( adultery)
---francis on 8/19/12

dude, that is messed up on so many levels.
---aka on 8/19/12


I think all Christians who intend to take a stance on abortion MUST read

Numbers 5:11-31 and ask yourself two questions:
1: What is the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?
2: Why does God allow human being to initiate a process which gauntness the termination of a pregnancy if the child is a child of adultery?
---francis on 8/19/12


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James L., It seems that by "Pro-Choice does not mean Pro-Abortion", they may mean that they are "not 100% advocating Abortion for everyone". Rather, they are advocating the "right" for abortion if one wants to have one done. But, (and if that's what is meant), it is still advocating Abortion, although indirectly. The question is, and should be, "Is Abortion Right or Wrong?" And, the answer depends on what GOD thinks and says, rather than just what any man or woman thinks and says about it. GOD says that it is WRONG to abort (murder, butcher, slaughter, kill, slay, etc.) an unborn baby. Only GOD has the Right to take a Life, if HE desires, because HE is the only ONE Who can give it.
---Gordon on 8/19/12


James_L on 8/19/12
I do not refer to myself as anti-abortion, I refer to myself as pro life or pro-choice. I support the life fo all, from conception to adulthood.

I supprt everyone right to worship whom they please. Creator (God) or creation ( so). Not keeping the sabbath, eating swine, same parter marriage, unwarranted abortions, murder are all equally abominations in God's laws, and all equally forgivable

My position as pro-choice /life is a position of love, and theology. Numbers 5:11-31 gives a man the right to initiate an abortion ".. If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him..," So the word of God is not absolulutely against termination of a pregnancy in certain cases ( adultery)
---francis on 8/19/12


For those people who are pro-arbotion I suggest you watch to documentary entitled "MAAFA 21".

If after watching it, you are still pro-abortion, you are probably A COLD HEARTED individual.
---Rob on 8/19/12


Francis you're ignorance for party affiliation holds no power. The politicians have long stopped working for the people. thank you for proving my point further because a double minded person is unstable in all their ways and cannot see their instability defending both sides. You cannot stand for something and look the other way to the choices of killing and also make a claim you are not pro-abortion. The antithesis of pro-choice is not pro-life when the option of choice provides for killing. pro-choice is pro-abortion color it a different flavor if it covers the evil you pretend you don't see because it is still the same popsicle the choice to kill another human being is the pro-choice agenda and that choice is aligned with pro-abortion.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/19/12


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There is no difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion. That's just a game that liberals play to make murder sound like a good thing. If you're not against abortion, then you are for it. And if you are okay with innocent babies being killed, even if by someone else not yourself, then you are pro-abortion. If you think it should be a person's "choice" to kill, then you are pro-abortion. Murder isn't something that you can just be in the middle on. If you say that you would never commit murder but you think that is a choice each person should be allowed to make, and so you sit by while innocent people are being killed, that makes you as bad as a murderer yourself.
---Jed on 8/19/12


There is more to being pro-life than stopping pre-natal infanticide.

I remember back in the 80's when AIDS/HIV was perceived as only a "gay disease" that I shocked my pro-life colleagues in saying that HIV should come under the pro-life umbrella.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/12


francis,
a few very sincere questions:

Being 100% against abortions, do you ever refer to yourself as Anti-Abortion among your Pro-Choice peers?

If we take this issue, and parallel it with your SDA position on Sabbath, do you ever strongly defend someone's right (or choice) to not observe the Sabbath?

Or to turn it around, do you ever rail against those who choose abortion in the same way that you rail against those who refuse to observe the Sabbath?

Is your position on Choice developed from your theological stance, or do you separate your politics from your Christian convictions?

Take as much space as you need for your answers, I realy would like some detailed thought
---James_L on 8/19/12


A paradox is a statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which (if true) defies logic or reason, similar to circular reasoning.

For it is a sin, even for one to permit it is a sin.
Thats why you say I would never do or permit such a thing.
For the Lord is against such things.

Yet I read the Lord is against all sins.
And all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

But, I didnt do that!
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Yes, it is!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/19/12


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by their own pro-choice stand agree and support mothers who choose killing. ---Follower_of_Christ on 8/18/12
Absolutly untrue

I am 100% pro choice, yet I do not beleive that women should abort thier babies.

I am 100% against abortions.

The idea that someone can be pro choice, and against the act of abortion is baffling to those who have been brainwashed by the GOP.

Those of us who are prochoice believe that love, as well as education is the key to reducing abortion. The GOP has taught that imprisonment and criminalization is the key to stopping abortions.

we know that criminalization will not stop abortions. It will only reduice it to an unsafe, unsanitary practice
---francis on 8/18/12


\\...abhor killing of innocent children, yet are in favor of the death penalty....Such people can reasonably be called "anti-abortion", but not "pro-life".\\
---StrongAxe on 8/18/12

I think you may be on to something, StrongAxe. That may be one reason I don't call myself Pro-Life. I call myself Anti-Abortion, or Pro-Innocent-Life. I don't like ambiguity.


\\It means they are double minded in all they do...they can remain neutral by not taking a stand in their convictions.\\
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/18/12

I like that. I've felt it has a ring of apathy to it. How can a person entrenched in apathy even muster enough conviction to fight for someone else's right to make the choice?
---James_L on 8/18/12


It means they are double minded in all they do. A double minded person believes they can remain neutral by not taking a stand in their convictions. An impossibility because if someone cannot stand for something they will fall for anything. they deceive themselves into believing they can walk with those who do evil in the name of choice and remain untouched by the atrocities of a mother who would kill their baby.

They are ignorant in their belief that a women has more power than God and can determine who lives and dies, and by their own pro-choice stand agree and support mothers who choose killing. Ignorance is bliss when approval of choice has more weight than the options of that choice, of which one includes killing.
---Follower_of_Christ on 8/18/12


One thing I have read is it can mean that someone is not in favor of abortion but is willing to do it if this is what they consider to be the better of two bad choices. Ones claim there are times when it is better to kill an unborn, instead of the child being brought up unwanted, etc.

But with Jesus you can learn how to love your unborn, so you can have real love with someone . . . instead of going along with unloving ones who pressure you to become a killer. Why would you let wrong people decide how you are and what you do?

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)
---willie_c: on 8/18/12


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In the late Bernard Nathanson's ABORTING AMERICA he says that they deliberately chose the word "choice" to confuse the issue, as "abortion" still has negative connotations.

Furthermore, NARAL chose "100,000 women dying from back alley abortions" as "advocacy statistics for consciousness raising", meaning "lies to manipulate people."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/18/12


Is it a paradox, or deceit, or apathy,

what is the thinking behind this ambiguous sign?
---James_L on 8/18/12

i think it is paradoxical, deceitful, and pathetic. trying to be friends with the unconscionable.
---aka on 8/18/12


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve,

Does this mean we want people not to serve God?

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


many of us ( pro choice) believe that everyone has the right to choose, yet we would have everyone choose life rather than abortion. That is why pro choice individuals are very liberal with there support of social programs to aide those who are in need.
---francis on 8/18/12


James_L:

This is similar to the subtle distinction between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion". There are many people who violently abhor killing of innocent children, yet are in favor of the death penalty for serious crimes like murder. Such people can reasonably be called "anti-abortion", but not "pro-life".
---StrongAxe on 8/18/12


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Chip and Cluny,
I agree with you both.

It seems to me that the sign is supposed to mean:

"I personally wouldn't kill my baby, but if someone else wants to kill theirs, they should be allowed to make that choice"

But this comes from people who will portray abortion as just which, to my understanding, does mean they are pro abortion.

That's why I can't figure the wording.

Is it a paradox, or deceit, or apathy,

what is the thinking behind this ambiguous sign?
---James_L on 8/18/12


Just another way to cloud what has become a Republican rallying cry during the election season.
When the world speaks of Pro-Choice, it really means they want no laws to stop mothers from killing their unborn.
As Christians I feel strongly that we should be on the opposing side, offering support and facilities for mothers not wishing to abort but being pressured to. Adoption is a very viable alternative.....
---Chip on 8/18/12


The only choice pro-choice supporters like is pre-natal infanticide.

I've noticed lately there are a lot of cases with women killing their small children.

Thing is, NOBODY tries using the "choice" defense: At what point does a women lose her right to choose (that is, to kill her baby)?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/18/12


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