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Can We Not Sin Like Job

Why can't we be like Job and sin not?

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 ---francis on 9/1/12
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---Haz27 on 9/15/12

Those two scriptures are talking about those who have HEARD teh Gospel, even drawn by the Holy Spirit but STOPPED SHORT OF SALVATION. They were never saved to begin with.

There was NO MORE year after year COVERING of sin the Jews Practiced. Because the blood of bulls and goats could NEVER take away sin in the first place. The SIN here is rejecting Jesus Christ. Insulting the Spirit of Grace is that unforgivable sin. Meaning resisting the Holy Spirit who brings you to salvation in Christ. If they reject Christ, they cannot go back to bulls and goats.

Because now we enter a NEW and Living way (GRACE), through the veil, that is to say His flesh, meaning..I am Crucified with Christ..
---kathr4453 on 9/16/12


Kathr. I don't think I understand you.
Heb 6:6 does refer to falling away from salvation. The same in Heb 10:26, "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth...". Are you saying Heb 6:6 is not about salvation?

What does sin achieve?
Death (Eze 18:4, Rom 6:23).

When we repent of dead works (sin) and turn to Christ, ONLY PAST sin is remitted. NOW we've CEASED from sin,1Pet 4:1, cannot sin (1John 3:9) in Christ.

As for the physical with it's failings, it's dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. But that physical is not what we are judged by.

Unbelief (sin) is what stops people entering the promised land. Unbelief includes judging righteousness by works of the law (sin).
---Haz27 on 9/15/12


christians have the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
---francis on 9/13/12
We do not have a divine nature. We only have one nature, sinful human nature,
---Mark_V. on 9/14/12
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE
---francis on 9/14/12
francis, we are partakers of the divine, we are not divine. God only is divine. You are presenting heresy.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/12

you obviously have a learning disability. I never said that we were divine or little gods. I said exactly what the word of God says we are partakers of/ have the divine nature
---francis on 9/15/12


Haz27, the key verse in Hebrews 6 is verse 9. If all that equated salvation was in verses 1-6 , what could possibly be better.

People can be drawn by the Holy Spirit and taste of good things to come, as we saw in Heb 3-4...and still never have faith to cross over. Many today still live on the wrong side of the cross. The wilderness is not salvation...it only leads to salvation.

So It depends on what you actually beleieve salvation is...seeing the promise and not taking posession, or actually taking posession.

Those who entered the Promise Land (a type of salvation) sinned at Ai Joshua 7:11.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/12


francis, we are partakers of the divine, we are not divine. God only is divine. You are presenting heresy. There is no little walking gods, the only little gods are those who cannot walk, talk, move, think, or answer any prayers, they are made out of wood, stone, clay metal etc.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/12




We do not have a divine nature.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/12
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Romans 8:9 the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
---francis on 9/14/12


kathr: If you feel Heb 6 and Gal contradict each other you could offer your understanding, couldn't you?

James 1:14,15 explains the process of falling away into sin.
"each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, WHEN it is FULL-GROWN, brings forth death"

Paul's efforts with Galatians suggests they were not yet in FULL-GROWN sin. Why else would he say to them "brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free"(Gal 4:31) and "Stand fast" in the liberty of Christ (Gal 5:1)?

So, what is your understanding of Heb 6 on falling away and thus cannot be renewed unto repentance?
---Haz27 on 9/14/12


Heb 6:6 you CANNOT be renewed to repentance if you fall away again.
---Haz27 on 9/13/12

Haz27, your interpretation of Hebrews 6:1-6 and Paul's teaching in Galatians and his words and actions WITH those Galatians who fell from Grace, where he stated he had to "labour again" to form Christ in them seem to be contradicting scriptures, UNLESS of coarse you have mis-interpreted Hebrews 6:1-6.

I believe you have Haz27. The problem is, if you really don't understand the true meaning of Hebrews 6:1-6 then maybe there are other verses you really don't understand too.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/12


francis, you said,

"Please do not say " sin nature" because christians have the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4"

We do not have a divine nature. We only have one nature, sinful human nature, since we are descendants of Adam fall.
The Bible no where teaches that man has two natures, we are a new creation in Christ, born of the Spirit. If we had a divine nature we would be gods.
We can now partake of the divine nature because we are in Christ.
"Only Jesus Christ had two natures," a human nature which was not sinful, and a Divine nature because He is God. No human being has a divine nature. Please do not teach heresy.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/12


kathr: Yes, repentance is change of mind.
Man was in rebellion, going our own way, Acts 14:16.
Heb 6:1 Repentance is from DEAD WORKS that we did in rebellion against God.
Luke 13:3 "unless you repent you will all likewise perish"
Mark 1:15 "Repent, and believe in the gospel"
Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out"

Once we repent of DEAD WORKS, and turn to Christ, PAST sin is remitted (Rom 3:25). We're no longer in rebellion/self-righteous dead works/SIN. We've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1 and now in Christ CANNOT sin, 1John 3:9. Christ is our righteousness.

Heb 6:6 you CANNOT be renewed to repentance if you fall away again.
---Haz27 on 9/13/12




Mark_V. on 9/13/12

So what is it that makes some christiane HAVE to sin.

Please do not say " sin nature" because christians have the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
---francis on 9/13/12


Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

We should make every effort not to sin,
---Mark_V. on 9/13/12
OK then
---francis on 9/13/12


francis, All sinned and all need the righteousness of Christ in order to enter heaven. Also, God never tells anyone to keep sinning. you gave,

"Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body..."
The very reason he mentions this is because sin sometimes does reign in the mortal body, otherwise he would not mention it.
then you gave,

2 Peter 1:3 good passage.
You say,

Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

We should make every effort not to sin, "But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:20,21).

---Mark_V. on 9/13/12


Repent means a changed mind.

Many times through out our Christian walk we change our mind as we learn the mind of Christ...Just as Job's experience was.

I believe the more we SEE God in our life, the more we know our own sinfulness. You can only SEE Christ in you if you are saved, not before.

The greatest of all is that as we grow in Christ, and as we see and know our old sinful state that rears it's ugly head now and again ..called SIN, we can confess our SIN and He is "faithful and Just" to forgive us those sins. WHY? Because that is what the SURITY of the New Covenant is all about.

An unsaved person is not saved upon confession of sin. An unsaved person is saved upon confessing Jesus Christ as LORD.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/12


Mark_V the bible says ALL HAVE SINNED, this is the past tense, it never says all must continue to sin. Infact this is what the bible says:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and GODLINESS,

Mark_V What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

I await your answer
---francis on 9/12/12


kathr: We've discussed this topic many times so I'm sure your aware I speak of being sinless in our 'position' in Christ. I am not referring to our obvious imperfect physical behavior. If we were judged by our obvious imperfect behavior then all would be lost.

Regarding Heb 6:1, it clearly states you cannot be renewed unto repentance. This is a ONCE ONLY repentance.

And Rom 3:25 it clearly states PAST sin was remitted. That means there is no more future sin covered. If we remain in Christ then our position will always be righteous in him and not a sinner.
---Haz27 on 9/12/12


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Haz27 on 9/12/12


Luke 5:8
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

No more repentance? Hebrews 6:1-6 actually say no more repentance?

Only past sins were forgiven? Really, not past present and future?

Sorry Haz27, I don't agree with your interpretation of scripture. You take our POSITION alone and believe you have already arrived in a sinless state, never to sin again?

Might want to ask Jimmy Swaggart what he believes about that one. I hear he has "repented" and is preaching THE CROSS now. I don't mean our position of the Cross but our POSSESSION of the Cross...I DIE DAILY!.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/12


Kathr: I agree "suffering" has several different meanings. Likewise "perfect".

1Pet 4:1 is Christ's suffering on the cross. Arming ourselves with same mind/suffering in the flesh refers to same for us,Rom 6:6, our old man crucified with Christ.
Phil 3:10 confirms this.

1Pet 5:8-10 is not same as 1Pet 4:1. 'Perfect' refers to same as James 1:3,4 regarding the trying of your faith.

Sin was dealt with completely at the cross. Christ's ONE offering has sanctified/perfected us, Heb 10:10,14.
There's no more sin once we come to Christ (Rom 6:7, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9). ONLY PAST sin was forgiven, Rom 3:25. Now there is NO MORE repentance, Heb 6:1-6. HOW shall we that are DEAD live in sin? Rom 6:2

---Haz27 on 9/12/12


Kathr: significant: Job 42:1-6. "Then Job answered the Lord and said:

I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
You asked, Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Listen, please, and let me speak,
You said, I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.*
---Chria9396 on 9/12/12


Haz27 on 9/11/12

There are several reasons we suffer. So suffering in scripture needs to be discerned.

First, we can suffer for preaching the Gospel, but that's not 1st Peter 4,5.

WE can also suffer being chastened/scorged by God of which "ALL" are Partakers.

Then there is the suffering of being made conformable to His death, Phil 3.

Then we have 1st Peter 5:10, EXPLAINING God's purpose in that suffering.

Why did Job suffer? He was already a righteous man, Job 1:8 God Himself states Perfect, upright etc.

However, Job confesses in the end he spoke things he should't have, saying "I am a man of unclean lips". But when it was over, look at his words...Job 42:1-6.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/12


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francis, no descendant of Adam is without sin, with the exception of Jesus Christ who never sinned. Job was faithful to God in that he never said, why God did this happen to me, why my family? What is the deal? For God never answers anyone's questions. But God honors them for their faith. In the end no one is going to get an answer why they suffer, or why a child dies or why someone got cancer. God allows evil, but you will be told to trust God and God will honor your faith and bless you for it as He did to Job.
---Mark_V. on 9/12/12


Haz27, I see you are very busy with Kathr, so I will leave you peace. Thanks again for the discussions. Remember (1 John 1:8-10) those passages are for believers for they only have the Truth, which is the Word of God, (Jesus Christ). Blessings to you and yours.
---Mark_V. on 9/12/12


kathr: I had explained before that 1Pet 4:1 "arm yourselves with the same mind", refers to when we turned to Christ and our old man was crucified with Him (Rom 6:6).
Now being in Christ we are righteous, holy and ceased from sin, if we continue in obedience to the gospel.

But you believe it refers to suffering and learning how to walk free of sin.
What 'suffering' do you refer to?
What 'sin' do you refer to?

Perhaps if you can explain this then I can understand where your coming from.
---Haz27 on 9/11/12


Can you explain then why you spoke of learning to walk in freedom from sin and why you said I'm facing a rude awakening when I'm under grace?
---Haz27 on 9/11/12


The Galatians were under Grace too, they were actually saved by Grace. Being UNDER Grace does not guarantee a sinless walk. But to WALK IN THE GRACE and knowledge of Jesus Christ is certainly a start.

Galatians 3 states, Have ye SUFFERED so much in VAIN. In other words they were on their way, learning obedience through SUFFERING, and then they hated the suffering obviously and went back to live a comfy life under the Law.

Now tell us about your sufferings in the flesh and your personal experience of 1st Peter 4...
---kathr4453 on 9/11/12


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Kathr: I'm not sure if I'm understanding you.

You said: 'To make VOID the GRACE of God in our life IS SIN.'

I agree with this and that the Galatians were trying to be perfected by the flesh/sanctified by works of the law.

Can you explain then why you spoke of learning to walk in freedom from sin and why you said I'm facing a rude awakening when I'm under grace?
---Haz27 on 9/11/12


Haz, it is from bondage of sin that Christ set us free. You have made up your mind you are without sin, and if you sin, it is not call sin anymore, because you are saved. We all know you are a sinner and as long as you take a breath, you cannot escape that sinful body you walk with. And God says that you don't have the Truth or the Word in you, and proudly declare God a liar.
"If we (believers by faith in the Truth) say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves "and the Truth is not in us." If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us" (1 John 1:8-10).
---Mark_V. on 9/11/12


---Haz27 on 9/10/12

Well Haz27, I said "positionally" yes we are freed from sin, we are forgiven of our sin...period..

But you can clearly see CAN'T YOU that in Galatians they fell from GRACE. Now that does not mean they fell from salvation,...they FELL from walking in the GRACE and power of that freedom. Now this actually happened to SAVED forgiven Christians.

Paul states, he had to stay and labor to FORM CHRIST IN THEM AGAIN. WHEN they left the walk of GRACE that is Galatians 2:20-21..they were SINNING by trying to sanctify themselves by keeping the Law. Why do you not know Gal 2:20-21 is the very Heart and soul of Galatians. To make VOID the GRACE of God in our life IS SIN.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/12


Hi kathr. as your doctrine claims that we have to learn to walk in that freedom from sin then I guess the thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was fast-tracked without having to learn. All he did was believe on Jesus, which is what the gospel is about anyway.

Why does your doctrine claim that there are 2 different paths to God's kingdom? It seems unjust that God would fast-track some but make others take the risky long learning route where they potentially fail and face a rude awakening.

And regarding that 'rude awakening' you suggested, what happens if a Christian does not learn to walk in freedom from sin? I ask this as it sounds like you might be suggesting righteousness by works.
---Haz27 on 9/10/12


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Haz27, I think you fail to understand that POSITIONALLY yes we are freed, however now we need to take what was given us and actually learn to walk in that freedom.

God can give me an airplane, but it makes no difference in my life if I don't learn how to fly a plane. Just owning it means nothing. It was meant to Fly, not look at...right. But who, never having flown a plane gets in the first time and flies perfectly without any lessons?

WE LEARN obedience through the things we suffer, and that is what 1st Peter 4 is all about....The sufferings OF Christ is what sets you free from Sin. It is a daily "I DIE DAILY" life haz27 that you obviously know nothing of. I believe you will be in for a RUDE awakening one day!
---kathr4453 on 9/10/12


MarkV. Again, your adding to scripture. This time in your description of 1Pet 4:18.

And you have no scripture to support your interpretation of 1Pet 4:1 'arm yourselves also with the same mind".

Scripture confirms scripture. Read my previous posts again and consider that Christ truly set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7).

I have offered many scriptures that confirm that Christians have ceased from sin and you have never been able to support your argument against this.
Perhaps it's time to accept what God's word says.
---Haz27 on 9/9/12


Haz, you now gave (1 Peter 4:18).
"Now if the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
A quote from (Prov. 11:31) which reinforces the point that if the justified sinner is saved only with great difficulty, suffering, pain, and loss- what will be the end of the ungodly sinner (2 Thess. 1:4-10). The ungodly sinners are not justified.
(1 Peter 4:1,2) "Therefore since Christ suffered for us in the flesh" He died on the cross for our sins. "arm youselves also with the same mind" We as believers should be ready to die for the Church. This is what every Christian should look long for, to cease from sinning. That only happens at death.
---Mark_V. on 9/9/12


MarkV. True, 1Pet 4:1 is as you quoted. I meant to say 1Pet 4:18, "If the righteous (Christians) scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear".

I'm surprised you did not remember 1Pet 4:18 as I quoted it to you many, many times before, explaining how there are 2 distinct groups mentioned. Group 1 righteous saved Christians. Group 2 the sinner, ungodly.

Regarding 1pet 4:1 it shows how Christians have CEASED from sin having put on the "same mind", which speaks of Rom 6:6 our old man being crucified with Christ.

Scripture confirms scripture that in Christ we cannot sin.
---Haz27 on 9/8/12


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Haz, you are adding to Scripture again.
You now gave (1 Peter 4:1) and you say it says,
"1Pet 4:1 "if the righteous (Christians) scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?""
That is not what it says.
"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: For he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin"
That nowhere says what you said.
We are freed from sin. It means we were in bondage to sin once but not anymore. We have been freed. Chains came off. Now we can be triumphant in suffering even the suffering of death. The Christian should voluntarily accept the potential of death as part of the Christian life.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/12


Jed, Mark Eaton, MarkV: Scripture shows we're either righteous/saved OR sinner/ungodly/lost.

1Pet 4:1 "if the righteous (Christians) scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"
Gal 2:15 "We who are Jews by nature, and NOT SINNERS"

Christians are:
FREED from sin,Rom 6:7
CEASED from sin,1Pet 4:1
CANNOT sin,1John 3:9

Anyone who sins is:
Of the devil, 1John 3:8
has NOT seen Christ nor known Him, 1John 3:6
a servant of sin, John 8:34

ONLY PAST sins were forgiven, Rom 3:25. Sin was finally dealt with on the cross, hence theres no more sin.

If you apply God's definitions of "sin" then you'll understand the scripture quoted above.


---Haz27 on 9/7/12


Haz 2: I know that you do not want to be called a sinner. I understand. But you are forgiven. You have not been glorified yet. That will happen at the resurrection. When you receive your new body prepared for heaven. Right now you have to live with what you got, your sinful body, which will die one day, unless the Second Coming comes when you are alive. The more one reads the Bible, the more we learn what sin is, and the more we see sin in our lives. If you don't see sin in your life, something is really wrong. The Truth is not in you,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).
---Mark_V. on 9/7/12


Haz, No where have I gone and heard anyone say they are sinless. I heard it here from Eloy. Then I heard if from you and Daune. I don't know how you can believe you are without sin. You take passages address to unbelievers and give them to believers, then you add to a passage what is not there. You go as far as changing the meanings of sin. And when you sin, it is not sin.
If you are saved, you are covered with the righteousness of Christ, but underneath you are a sinner saved by the grace of God. Without Christ you could not stand before God. Only One Man was sinless, Jesus Christ and you have not become our Mediator. Only He can stand before God the Father. If you were sinless you could stand before God without the need of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/12


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Jed says,"This whole passage refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous." It seems very strange that neither the word habitually nor characteristically is found in this passage.
---maranda on 9/6/12

Actually, none of those words that you posted appear in the passage either. Since this was written in Greek and not English. It's all a matter of translation.
---Jed on 9/6/12


You quoted James 4:17. This is speaking of the sin of unbelief in Jesus. Note the context of James 4.
---Haz27 on 9/4/12

The context tells me of the physical sins, quarreling, conflict, waging war, lust, murder, pride, arrogance, boasting, and friendship with the world.

It also says, "cleanse your hands and purify your hearts". Does not sound like unbelief in Christ to me. Sounds like practical advice to people who are habitually sinning. "Resist the devil" is a favorite passage for those who are struggling with sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/6/12


Jed. I put scriptural definitions of "sin" where it fits the context. You'll understand scripture if you use God's definitions and follow context. And remember its the sin of unbelief the world is convicted of.

Also 1John 3:9 does not speak of "habitual" sin. You are adding to scripture with that.
Christians have "ceased" from sin(1Pet4:1), "freed" from sin (Rom 6:7, John 8:36) "cannot" sin (1john 3:9). Scripture confirms scripture.

Mark V. We've had this debate before. You even admitted that some in your Bible study group agreed with me that Christians cannot sin, when scriptural definitions of sin are applied. Unfortunately you choose not to define "sin" correctly.
---Haz27 on 9/6/12


I have heard many a christian say " I can do all things through christ who strengthens me." Sadly, the one thing which Christ gives us most power over: the ability to over come sin in our mortal bodies, they do not seem to be able to do this through christ who strengthens.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and GODLINESS,
---francis on 9/6/12


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Job 40:8-9 seems to be the closest answer to Job's sin.
If thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me,
that thou may be righteous? 9. Has thou an arm like God?
or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

We live righteous lives when we live by God's ways. But
when we look down on others for not living up to our set
of standards, then we are self-righteous. Job thought himself to be right, and God wrong. Self-righteousness is very common but it produces legalism.

We sin every day, but there is one mediator between God
and man, and that is Jesus....1 John 1:9 says: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
---Alice on 9/6/12


the written word states all have sinned Job may have believed he didn't sin
---Follow_of_Christ on 9/6/12

Two statement, one truely spokenm, the other miss-spoken.

Truely all HAVE ( past tense)sinned. That would include Job. It appears that Job came to a point in life when he put away sin, and walked with God, maybe much like Enoch walked with God after he was 85 years old.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin? God forbid

Hebrews 12:1 let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us,

Job did not write about himself, Moses wrote as revealed by God. It was God who inspired Moses to write that in all this Job sinned not, and that Job was a perfect and upright man
---francis on 9/6/12


Jed says,"This whole passage refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous." It seems very strange that neither the word habitually nor characteristically is found in this passage.
---maranda on 9/6/12


"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin". This passage means that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically. Not that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. Maranda tells us this scripture means that every single christian is absolutely perfect and without sin. But who can claim that they have never sinned since they became saved? Not even in thought or word? John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the rest of the Scriptures which tell us that anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar. This whole passage refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.
---Jed on 9/6/12


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1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
---Maranda on 9/6/12


Haz, again, because you believe in sinlessness, you claim (James 4:17 and Heb. 10:26) are speaking of the same context, and you are so wrong. Nothing you said is true. In fact it is deceitful. Which in other words a sin.
(James 4:17) Says,
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin" The implication is that they also did what they shouldn't do. Sins of Omission lead directly to sins of commission.
And (Heb. 10:26) no where says those Hebrews he talked about were saved. In fact in (v. 39) He says,
"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"
Your whole explanation is so very wrong.
---Mark_V. on 9/6/12


Job sinned. Job was not sinless. The only one without sin was the Lord. the written word states all have sinned Job may have believed he didn't sin as many people today are led to believe they are sinless too. Apostles warned us to be careful to avoid lasciviousness and that is believing you can sin and live contrary to Gods 10 laws. If you are led by someone to believe Job was sinless I suggest rereading the book of Job.
---Follow_of_Christ on 9/6/12


Haz27, your problem is that you are adding to scripture. After the word sin you put in parintheses (unbelief in Jesus) and after "doing good" you put (belief in Jesus). You have given the scriptures your own meaning by doing so. While I agree that unbelief in Jesus is a sin, there are many other sins also. And while believing in Jesus is a very good thing to do, there are other good things to do too, like obeying God's commandments. The way you say it makes it seem as if you think unbelief is the only sin. And that all you have to do to not sin is believe in Jesus. The bible does not support this at all.
---Jed on 9/6/12


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Hi Jed, Whilst I see your point unfortunately it's not supported by the context given in James 4.

James 4:17 is similar to Heb 10:26.
"if we sin (unbelief in Jesus) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"

After receiving the knowledge of the truth (the gospel, believe on Jesus), any who reject this are in sin of unbelief, (John 16:9) and are lost.

In other words, any who know to do "good" (believe on Jesus) and do not do it then it is the sin of unbelief (John 16:9). This is the sin the world is convicted of.
---Haz27 on 9/5/12


Haz27, I think what James wrote about people knowing to do something and not doing it is more along the lines of this example:

You're walking down the street and you see an old woman getting mugged and robbed and you know you should do something to stop it, but instead you just walk by and act like you didn't see it.

According to James, you sinned because you knew to do something and you didn't do it. Actually, the Bible says that you are just as guilty as the person who mugged and robbed her because by doing nothing you allowed it and participated in it.
---Jed on 9/5/12


Hi Jed. James4:17 doesn't say what "good" is. So context determines it.

James 4:4 addressing spiritual adulterers, rejecting Christ by establishing their own righteousness.
Verse 12 confirms this. This is unbelief. The salvation call in verse 7,8 also confirms this.

We should understand what the will of God is Eph 5:17
John 6:40 Believe on Jesus
1Thess 4:3 this is the will of God,your sanctification.

And His commandments?
1John 3:23 Believe on Jesus and love one another.

And the sin the world is convicted of? Unbelief in Jesus, john 6:29.

And our works? Believe on Jesus, John 16:9.

This is God's will, or the "good" we should obey.
---Haz27 on 9/4/12


see post by ---Mark_Eaton on 9/4/12
---francis on 9/4/12


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Haz27, your enterpretaion of James is quite a stretch. God's will for us goes beyond just believing in Jesus, ulthough I think that is at the top of his list. His will is also that we obey him, among other things. I don't know how clearer James could be when he wrote that it is a sin if you know you should do something and you don't do it. He is not talking about belief in Jesus. If he were, he would have simply said that. He was talking about obedience.
---Jed on 9/4/12


Hi Mark Eaton: You quoted James 4:17 "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin"

This is speaking of the sin of unbelief in Jesus. Note the context of James 4.
Verse 4 addresses SPIRITUAL adulterers.
verse 7,8 makes salvation call to them
verse 11,12 describes these adulterers as self-appointed judges, judging others by the law.

These are like the Galatians (Gal 3:3) seeking perfection by the flesh, establishing righteousness by works of the law (10 commandments).

To do "good" is to obey God's will, which is to believe on Jesus (John 6:40, John 6:29).
---Haz27 on 9/4/12


Through the book of Job, Job examines his life for any sins, or hidden desires of the heart that are sinfull,a nd he comes out with nothing.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: [when] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
---francis on 9/4/12


Job continues to say that he has not sinned with eyes, nor lips, nor hand
---francis on 9/3/12

Can we live without sin? Yes, but the bar is set very high.

James 4:17 "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin"

Phil 2:14 "Do all things without complaining and disputing"

How often do we commit sin by omission? How often do we complain and argue and miss God's will?

Remember, God exalts the humble and abases the proud. Are you being proud of your sinless perfection as the Pharisees or are you being humble like Job?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/4/12


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Francis let give you another example of a person who the Bible says did not sin. In 1st Kings 11:34, 14:8. It says King David obeyed all my commands and decrees, doing only what is right in my eyes. However, we know David sinned many times, read Samuel, thus it is not that we sin because we do, but that our sin is placed on Jesus that washes away our sin from us. In the same way Job who was righteous not because he did not sin, but because he continued to have faith in God and not carry the weight of his sin on himself. Same with Rahab, Noah, Abraham, Moses and other Hebrews 11 characters. The sin in Job is specific to the sin of lossing faith and cursing God which he did not do.
---Scott1 on 9/4/12


Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes, why then should I think upon a maid?

Job 31:7 If my step hath turned out of the way, and mine heart walked after mine eyes, and if any blot hath cleaved to mine hands,

In the book of Job, Job searches his heart for any sin, Job states rightfully, that he has not even thought of or looked at another female with lust, and Job continues to say that he has not sinned with eyes, nor lips, nor hand
---francis on 9/3/12


MAN'S TEACHING IS FAULTY.

COMPLETE salvation needs to be understood as consisting of....

1) "purification OF THE FLESH"

"the blood of bulls and goats......sanctifies for the purification of the flesh" (Hebrews 9:13).

2) purification OF THE CONSCIENCE.

"ETERNAL SPIRIT....purify your conscience" (Hebrews 9:14).

The Israelites used to obtain purification by making animal sacrifices and giving offerings to God, but those sacrifices and offerings had to be repeated every year (their purification was not ETERNAL)....ALSO, that "purification" was not sufficient to change the worshipper to become a NEW CREATION.

"for it is impossible" (Hebrews 10:4).
---more_excellent_way on 9/3/12


No doubt the first century 'CHURCH OF GOD' ("the Way") understood that this 2-part 'PURIFICATION SALVATION' is why we need Jesus to purify us AND also give us His ETERNAL Holy Spirit (John 7:39, Hebrews 9:14), but the modern secular CHURCH OF MAN never taught this true understanding (Proverbs "Get UNDERSTANDING").

Every believer has the BLOOD from the cross to purify their flesh.

Jesus ALSO shed WATER on the cross....(the "LIVING" water has never been taught properly,...IF AT ALL). The Spirit does not agree with THE BLOOD ONLY (1 John 5:8).

Jesus came by "water and blood" (1 John 5:6).

Man's teaching is FAULTY (forsake mammon, become "clay to the potter").
---more_excellent_way on 9/3/12


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more excellent way: If there is no sin what need do we have of a savior?
---Tanya on 9/3/12


Francis, Job 1:11 tells us what Satan was trying to do.
Job 1:11. "stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"

Note also Job 2:10. "In all this did not Job sin with his lips".

Neither do Christians sin with their lips, cursing/rejecting God. We believe God's promise. We believe on Jesus.

It's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
This is to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Heb 3:12).
---Haz27 on 9/3/12


The "LIBERTY" law has no "text" or guidelines.

The law of liberty is NOT an OPTION for a "Godlover", it is a MANDATE (mandatory) for all who "look to" the "perfect law".

James 2:12 "So speak and so act...."

....Many believers have chosen the IMPERFECT law and are 'bible-lovers' instead of "Godlovers".

DIVINELY SPIRITUAL sin is no longer possible under the perfect law of the JESUS DISPENSATION, so....

"no longer have any consciousness of sin" (Hebrews 10:2).

It is NOT POSSIBLE to do as Job did (because "SIN" no longer exists).....the 10 commandments were the only law that prohibited "violations".
---more_excellent_way on 9/3/12


---aka on 9/2/12
Let us not forget, that Satan was walking the earth causing people to sin, it was God who challened Satan to get Job to sin.

Everything that Satan put Job through was not enough to get Job to sin.

Is it a sin not to know everything? ofcourse not. So Job not knowuing eveything is not a sin.

In all that Satan put Jobn through, Job never sinned, nor did he turn his back on God.

If Job can do it, why can,t we?
---francis on 9/2/12


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Adam violated the ONE COMMANDMENT that God gave him (God called that violation "SIN").

After Moses brought down from the mountain two tablets that listed TEN commandments of God, "sin" violations had become much more common because now there were TEN God-given commands.

Moses added many rules/ordinances to the God-given commandments, so God explicitly says...

"by abolishing in His flesh the law of COMMANDMENTS and ORDINANCES" (Ephesians 2:15).

There are many laws in this world, but a sincere Godlover will be held accountable only according to the "PERFECT law".


Don't be a 'BIBLE-lover'. Look to the PERFECT law ("when the perfect comes..." 1 Corin. 13:10).
---more_excellent_way on 9/2/12


willie c, Ask the people of New Orleans if rain was a blessing?
---1st_cliff on 9/2/12


//I see lots of post, not one refuting what the bible says about Job in Job's temptation: Job sinned not.//

the bible says: Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

What is 'all this' referring to?

Job 42:3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know...Job 42:6 therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

why would a perfect man despise himself? it seems that Job did not know everything and questioned, and therefore, he repented.
---aka on 9/2/12


"why can't we as christians, with christ in us, come to a point where we put away sin?"

Why not talk about how to put away sin, then?

And, what do we mean by sin? Do we just mean outward wrong things? Do we include not arguing and not complaining? Do we stop blaspheming God by stopping complaining against His blessing of rain? I would say this is included. And there is the Holy Spirit's self-control with food, and what's in our minds.

What else, and how, Francis?
---willie_c: on 9/2/12


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I see lots of post, not one refuting what the bible says about Job in Job's temptation: Job sinned not.

Concerning the posibility of adultery, Job answer is: Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes, why then should I think upon a maid?

Job does not even think about other women, nor does helook at other women with lust.

the man was perfect and upright and went through all the temptatons and SINNED NOT
---francis on 9/2/12


---francis on 9/1/12

I think verse 22 has an important unerstanding of God's operations.

God gives, and it is God Who takes away, as He sees fit.

Satan is merely the tool in the hand of God, restrained and purposeful to Him.

He was created to oppose God's every move and action.

Knowing this, Job was correct in assigning to the Creator all the good and all the evil that comes our way.

Holy Spirit affirms this truth.
---Phil on 9/1/12


Hi Francis: Man can't put away sin.
Instead, sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross. Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7).

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). It's no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Now God sees Christ in those who believe.

With Christ in us we are made righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1).
This happened when we repented from our dead works, turning back to God, submitting to His righteousness.

Christians are born of God (1John 5:1) and cannot sin (1John 3:9).
---Haz27 on 9/1/12


It looks like it means that Job did not sin in how he handled his problems. He did not speak against God.

And, yes, we can be like this while we have trouble . . . not speaking against God.
---willie_c: on 9/1/12


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\\If Job, and Jesus were tempted by Satan, and yet sinned not, why can't we as christians, with christ in us, come to a point where we put away sin?
---francis on 9/1/12\\

Jesus never sinned.

Try again, francis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/1/12


Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

The issue at hand in the book of Job, is not how much pain and suffering Job can handle, It is whether or not satan can get Job to sin, as he did the rest of the world.

the bible says: Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

If Job, and Jesus were tempted by Satan, and yet sinned not, why can't we as christians, with christ in us, come to a point where we put away sin?
---francis on 9/1/12


I believe the passage about Job being sinless should be understood in a relative sense.

Remember, the OT is supposed to be interpreted in the light of the New, which says, "There is no one who lives and does not sin."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/1/12


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