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Are Apostles & Prophets Real

Why are today's denominational christians dead set against two of the five ministries mintioned in ephesians 4:11-13 - specifically the apostles and the prophets - not being relevant today?

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 ---Steveng on 9/9/12
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Phil: "Scholars of high degree would find your protestations misplaced."

I'm sure that all Catholic scholars find my protestantism objectionable. Good!



---jerry6593 on 9/29/12


---jerry6593 on 9/27/12

The Syriac manuscripts are fragments only.

Only four great codices have survived to the present day: Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus.

The Codex Vaticanus is one of the oldest extant manuscripts of the Greek Bible (Old and New Testament)and has been dated palaeographically to the 4th century.

Codex Sinaiticus is an Alexandrian text-type manuscript written in the 4th century in uncial letters on parchment.

Codex Alexandrinus ,along with the Codex Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus, is one of the earliest and most complete manuscripts of the Bible.

Scholars of high degree would find your protestations misplaced.
---Phil on 9/28/12


Phil: The three manuscripts you mentioned are NOT original manuscripts. That's my point! They are three copies of the same adulterated manuscript. The Textus Receptus (from which we get the KJV) is closer to the Syriac manuscripts and the original Aramaic, but is itself NOT an "original" manuscript - none are.


---jerry6593 on 9/27/12


Will you answer all of these questions, since you know 100% of what you are saying.
---Gordon on 9/26/12

It would be ideal to be 100 percent correct all the time. That would indicate having been changed into His image, and death would be a thing of the past.

However, I am not deathless, not changed, and certainly never even near 100% of anything, except useless without His mercies.

I would be quite willing to explain the Scriptural ages to you, with references to the passages, if you truly are seeking the truth.

I do think it is difficult to apprehend unless the right spirit is animating a person, and without that spirit, it is not possible.

You may reply, if you want.
---Phil on 9/27/12


Jerry6593 and elee7537 thank you both for the added information I will write it all down that sounds very handy and I find research very interesting. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 9/26/12




Darlene: You can download a free Bible search tool online from e-Sword.

Better yet order the Online Bible product as you will then have free over 30 versions of the Bible as well as many of the major commentaries, dictionaries and other useful Bible tools.

The price is modest and well-worth it.

You can also refernece BibleGateway as they provide the different versions as well as search capabilities.




---elee7537 on 9/26/12


Phil//I would hope that all who profess to teach doctrine here would be using an interlinear.
---
Have both a interliner as well as a Greek New Testament.

The problem however is often the choice of English in interpretation.

And all too often there are other sources of authority apart from the Bible.

Adventists for instance, insist that they have no creed except the Bible, but view the writings of Ellen White as the infallible interpreter of Scripture much liken to the teachings found in Roman Catholicism.
---elee7537 on 9/26/12


Phil, Well, tell us all, what words do we use to describe the length of time that the saved in Christ will be living in Heaven? Will the saved live on in a never-ending amount of time? If so, what is the New Testament Greek word for that time-period? Is there any word in Greek that fits that meaning? Or, is it that the LORD never meant for anyone, saved or damned, to live on in the future in a never-ceasing amount of time, so that all will eventually be annihilated? Will you answer all of these questions, since you know 100% of what you are saying.
---Gordon on 9/26/12


Darlene: You can download a free Bible search tool online from e-Sword.


---jerry6593 on 9/26/12


In the New Testament there are listed people who were prophets but whose words did not make it into Scripture.

The work of Prophets is to guide, cajol, warn and remind. In some ways similar to what Ministers are supposed to do.

Unlike Ellen G. White many other so called prophets place their words above scripture. Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy for example. Yet you point out only the Adventist prophetess.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/25/12




Jerry6593 thank you for that kind offer to help me with my questions on your Cnet name. Sometimes I will know something is in the Bible but can't even find the Book or verse so I apreciate your offer very much. Ha ha I never worried once that you would abuse me verbally. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 9/25/12


And just where did you get an "original manuscript"? There are NONE extant!
---jerry6593 on 9/24/12

The three oldest and nearly complete "New Testament" Manuscripts are Sanaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus. They differ only in minor details.

These are universally recognized as the most reliable evidence to the truth of God.

Most all Greek interlinears base their texts on these Manuscripts.

Nestle-Alland variant is the primary resource for most students of the word.

I would hope that all who profess to teach doctrine here would be using an interlinear.
---Phil on 9/25/12


Ezra Goodwin "We have the evidence of seven Greek writers extending through about six centuries, down to the age of Plato, who make use of the word aion, in common with other words, an no one of them ever employs it in the sense of eternity"

If you need more references, I can supply them. No modern Greek student would apply the sense of "eternal" to aionios. It is a theological contrivance, and that is the truth.

Howerver, truth is not what you are seeking. Castigation will never replace honest humility.
---Phil on 9/25/12


In modern times there has been many that have had visions of various sorts, some even predicting future events or bringing into existence new doctrine or doctrines of old that have been viewed as heretical.

I can agree that since we have the complete plan of salvation as depicted in the Bible, there is really no need for modern day prophets.

Of course, those of us that hold that position would certainly reject the so-called prophetess of Adventism.
---elee7537 on 9/25/12


There are no more prophets and apostles today. Apostles are those who specifically walked with Christ when He was here in the flesh. As for the prophets, the last of God prophet came in the flesh and was crucified. As the writer of Hebrews wrote,

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"

Don't be deceived, the Bible is complete and God has nothing more to say to mankind other than what's written in the Scriptures.
---christan on 9/24/12


Mark V, In JOEL 2:28 GOD is saying that HE'll pour out HIS Spirit on all flesh and they, as a result, will have Dreams, Visions and Prophecies. So, the Holy Spirit is the Author of those Dreams and Visions. Certainly everyone has dreams and some have visions. And, no, not all are from GOD, some are from the Devil. But,still we have GOD saying, in JOEL, that HE will give HIS people Dreams, Visions and Prophecies by HIS Spirit. Mark, you say that you trust "only GOD" and not "dreams and visions of men." But, some of GOD's people, who are having Dreams and Visions, are getting them FROM GOD. So, if you reject those Dreams and Visions and Prophecies, you are rejecting GOD's Message in those Dreams, Prophecies and Visions.
---Gordon on 9/24/12


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Phil, Everlasting and Eternal are not in the Manuscripts?? So, people who go to Heaven will not live there eternally, forever and ever, without ceasing? Is that what YOU believe? The word of "Everlasting" that is used for "Everlasting Life" (in Heaven) is the very same word of "Everlasting" that is used, as in, Everlasting Torment. You will toy with words, anything to avoid the Truth?? You waste time for everyone here involved when you spout the false doctrine the way you do. It's past time to wake-up, Phil.
---Gordon on 9/24/12


Darlene: You're welcome. I have the advantage of resources that most here do not. I do not mind your asking me questions directly through my CN PenPal Name. I promise not to verbally abuse you as Rob has claimed.



Phil: "Reliance on the versions instead of the Original Manuscripts is trouble."

And just where did you get an "original manuscript"? There are NONE extant!



---jerry6593 on 9/24/12


Gordon, stop to think for a minute, before Joel, do you believe people did not have dreams, and visions until Pentecost? Here is Joel,
"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh, Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions"
Now where does it say that those having dreams or visions come from God? Or that the dreams and visions are new revelations not found in the Bible? Nowhere. Every human being has visions or dreams. You cannot authenticate they come from God. You can believe they come from God, but you cannot prove they come from God. People would have to believe you. I rather believe the Word of God, the Bible.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12


"For GOD so loved the World..."
This is incorrect. The word "love" is the aorist tense.

It should be translated "so loves the world", not loved the world. It should also should read "gives", not "gave", which is misleading.

Jn 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son..

Reliance on the versions instead of the Original Manuscripts is trouble.

"each human soul makes a choice for Eternal Life or Everlasting Damnation.."
---Gordon on 9/23/12

Everlasting and eternal are not in the Manuscripts. They are man-made translations for the Greek word aionios.

Aionios does not mean these things.
---Phil on 9/23/12


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Jerry6953 thank you so much for the verse. It helps me learn easier when I can study it from the Bible. I love doing research but sometimes it takes too much time to look everything up when you don't know where to look. Blessings
---Darlene_1 on 9/23/12


Mark V, The "If" means that GOD has the option to give Dreams and Visions if HE so desires. HE has all Power and Authority to do so when e'er HE chooses. Have you not read JOEL 2:28? "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I (GOD) shall pour out MY Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, your old men shall dream Dreams, your young men shall see Visions." What GOD prophecied there, in JOEL, is now coming to pass before our very eyes. But, only those with eyes to believe will benefit from it. Best not believe the lies and slander being spread about the Prophet who is GOD's anointed. Especially without seeking the LORD's Face first and doing some studying to "shew thyself approved".
---Gordon on 9/23/12


Mark V, You don't believe the Scriptures when they say "For GOD so loved the World, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life."?? That "whosoever" means ANYONE, Mark. If anyone believes on YAHUSHUA he shall be saved. It's not GOD "selecting" certain ones for Heaven, and then HIM "choosing" to damn the rest on HIS own accord, without having given them a choice first. The fact is that each human soul makes a choice for Eternal Life or Everlasting Damnation, and then, GOD honours their choice by giving them what they want.
---Gordon on 9/23/12


Gordon 2: You also say,

" If HE chooses to give HIS people Dreams, Visions and Prophecies, HE has every Right and all Power to do so. You lean on your own understanding that's been corrupted by false doctrine."

What is this "If He chooses" If means you do not even know. Do you believe He is giving the dreams and visions people have? Muhammah visions were demonic. Did God do that? Did you ever stop to think that maybe that one prophet you mentioned had visions because of the drugs she was taking?
Like the Prophet E.G. White, who got hit in the head with a Rock and was in a coma, she had lots of visions because of the Rock, not because of God, unless you believe God threw the rock and hit her.
---Mark_V. on 9/23/12


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Darlene:

Dan 10:17,18 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me


Look Rob, no verbal abuse!


---jerry6593 on 9/23/12


Darlene, please in careful in exposing Jerry's LIES!!!

If you look through these blogs you will see the many times Jerry has verbally abused others for sharing God's truths and exposing Jerry's LIES!!!
---Rob on 9/22/12


Gordon, I never question anything that God can do. I question what you say God is doing. So I question you. You are right when you said,
"Mark V, Remember when I told you awhile back that believing one lie opens one up to believe other lies?"
That is exactly what happen to you, you believe one lie and now you believe other lies. I believe Scripture, not what you say or what anyone who had a dream or vision says. I believe God, you believe sinful man.
Concerning predestination, I rather put my faith in a Sovereign God knowing all who are His, then depending on sinful man to create faith in his own heart. Or to make himself alive all by himself.
---Mark_V. on 9/22/12


Jerry6593 please give the chapter and verse in the Bible where it says a Prophet doesn't breathe while having a vision. In fact I have never heard they have supernatural strength at that time either so please a verse for that too. Thank You
---Darlene_1 on 9/22/12


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Mark V, Remember when I told you awhile back that believing one lie opens one up to believe other lies? And that believing a false doctrine will twist a person's understanding of the Scriptures? Well, that's your dilemma. You believe the lie that GOD has "predestined" some people to be saved, while others HE predestined them to be damned for all Eternity. And, because you adhere to that false belief, you have crippled your ability to understand other Truths of the Scripture. GOD can reveal anything that HE wants to, in any fashion that HE pleases. If HE chooses to give HIS people Dreams, Visions and Prophecies, HE has every Right and all Power to do so. You lean on your own understanding that's been corrupted by false doctrine.
---Gordon on 9/21/12


Gordon, so what you are suggesting is that God's Truth (the Word of God) is been defeated out there, so God has to speak to certain individuals to tell them some other Truth not written in Scripture in order to make sure that many are saved. That God had to go to His second plan because His first one failed, and if this one fails too, He will go to His next one.
Don't you realize what you are saying? Gordon, God is Sovereign Lord, and when God wants to save someone, nothing stops Him. I read the stories of those you mentioned were prophets. Please Gordon, you are falling for lies? Why didn't you believe Muhammah? He had visions just like those three you mentioned. He wasn't even a prostitute, as one of your prophets. Please, don't be fooled.
---Mark_V. on 9/21/12


The Bible itself gives several identifying characteristics of a TRUE prophet. We should apply these tests to any who would claim the gift of prophecy. A few come to mind:

1) They never glorify themselves.

2) They speak according to OT scripture (Isa 8:20).

3) They are 100% accurate in their predictions.

4) They have supernatural strength while in vision.

5) They don't breath while in vision.

So, the next time someone claims to be a prophet, hold a mirror up to their face and see if they breathe.


---jerry6593 on 9/21/12


Follower-of-Christ, The existence of false prophets does not negate the existence of true modern Prophets of GOD.

interesting, where in holy scripture does it state we have modern prophets? the purpose of a prophet is to tell the future events of God aka prophecy. The Apostles were inspired by the Lord to warn the true believers that there would be false prophets and many who would come in the name of the Lord, not a few. There are no prophets today, however the two witnesses may be a type of prophet and they have not been revealed yet. Well, at least not by God it would depend on which false prophet you were following of many who claim they are here now making multiple two witnesses all across the globe.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/20/12


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Follower-of-Christ, The existence of false prophets does not negate the existence of true modern Prophets of GOD. Just as assuredly as II CORINTHIANS 11:13-15 is true about there being many false prophets, so EPHESIANS 4:11-12 and I CORINTHIANS 14 are true about there being TRUE modern Prophets of GOD. You cannot uphold one Scriptural truth while ignoring the other. That's called cherry-picking the Scriptures.
---Gordon on 9/20/12


2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

As holy scripture confirms, there will be many who claim to be, and have, the ministries of the Lord. The majority are false and have deceived many. Just look to the myriad of conflicting doctrines with Christianity. Most doctrines never taught by Apostles or Lord. Easy to be swept away with majority which is why the Lord stated his church is little because he knew few would follow his examples.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/20/12


Mark V, No sir. You see, despite what the Holy Scriptures plainly state, there are MANY, MANY, way TOO MANY Christians who are not reading those Scriptures. And, for some of those who do read them, they don't believe that the Bible MEANS exactly what it says. GOD is raising up some of HIS people (some Prophets and Teachers, etc.) to reiterate and to SHOUT "Thus sayeth the LORD!" to the people, both Saved and unsaved. Many Christians are too full of man-made, demonic doctrines from false teachers who twist the meaning of the Scriptures, and they, therefore, are BLINDED from understanding what GOD's Written Word is actually saying. So, GOD sends HIS Word further through HIS holy GOD-fearing Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, and laymen, etc.
---Gordon on 9/20/12


Gordon, I believe your very wrong, concerning the three prophets you gave. You say,
" this people give extra details of prophetic events so this way the Saints can better prepare themselves. Warnings of repentance are necessary because, unfortunately, there are many "Saints" living in sin."
God's Word, the Bible, already gives warnings repent, and so do the pastors at Church.
All come short of the glory of God. Believers are forgiven of their sins. We are not saved by what we do, but what God has done for us. And of course no sinners enter heaven, when a person dies, all sins stop. Those forgiven will not be judged at the Great White Throne of Judgment, only those who sinned while alive and rejected Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/12


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No one speaks directly for God today.

God is not laying a foundation for His ecclesia.

It is complete, as God has declared. Col 1:25

All who claim to be so are false prophets and apostles.
They are delusional.

There is no revelation being given to add to the Word of God.

Such is vainglory. Men will not be satisfied with what they have been given for illumination, so they seek others who will perform for them what they cannot obtain in their weakness and doubt.
---Phil on 9/19/12


Whatever GOD wants said, HE speaks it to one of HIS Prophets and it all goes on from there.
---Gordon on 9/19/12

I do not fully agree with this statement. It can serve to create a hierarchy of believers. It can be used to say that we personally cannot hear from God, we can only hear thru the Prophet.

1 Tim 2:5 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus"

2 Pet 1:20-21 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/19/12


Mark Eaton, The Church Age HAS Prophets. The Church of today is comprised of Prophets. That's what EPHESIANS 4:11-12 and I CORINTHIANS 14. And, to say that Prophets of today are not like those of the Old Testament is merely the "opinion" of a man, that's not Biblically accurate. For a Prophet is anyone to whom GOD gives a Message and is sent by GOD to take that Message to whomever GOD designates it for. And, the "Message", again, can be a "Warning" to REPENT, or, it could be a Message of some detail about a future End-Times Event. Whatever GOD wants said, HE speaks it to one of HIS Prophets and it all goes on from there.
---Gordon on 9/19/12


one way they help to equip Saints is buy Warnings to REPENTof personal ahbitual sins. And also by revealing extra details of Prophetic events that are to take place, according to Scripture, in these End-Times.
---Gordon on 9/18/12

I do not deny that there are people with prophetic gifts. I was a big fan of David Wilkerson before he passed and read his 1998 book God's Plan in the Coming Depression, which nobody thought was possible until 2008.

But was David an prophet in the OT sense? No. I believe the office of "Prophet" is not needed. This is the age of the church. The church is the body of Christ and as such is the focus of God in the world.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/19/12


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trey: "Rom10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Christ is the end of the Mosaic Law and all it's ordinances, rituals, and ways of worship."

Once again, you hang your religion on one word - END. Please take the time to check the meaning of "end" in Rom 10:4 in the original Greek. You'll find that it means "goal" or "purpose" rather than cessation of applicability. If your interpretation were correct, then Jesus would have lied when He said:

Mat 5:17.18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,or the prophets ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law ...

---jerry6593 on 9/19/12


Mark Eaton, Yes, Modern Prophets are ordained to help with equipping the Saints. And, one way they help to equip Saints is buy Warnings to REPENTof personal ahbitual sins. And also by revealing extra details of Prophetic events that are to take place, according to Scripture, in these End-Times. And, that way the Saints can better prepare themselves. Warnings of repentance are necessary because, unfortunately, there are many "Saints" living in sin. They're backslidden in sin. And, if they do not heed the warning to REPENT, some will not be raptured, and others will even lose their souls to Damnation when they die. GOD will not allow sinning Christians into Heaven.
---Gordon on 9/18/12


Sorry folks, been away on vacation.

Modern day Apostles do not exist, if the definition of Apostle given in Acts 1:21-22 is accepted.

Prophets are a little harder to qualify in 125 words.

First, we get the office of Prophet and the gift of prophesy confused. Ephesians 4 lists the offices, Romans 12 lists the gifts. Prophesy is in both. Second, the two main reasons for a OT prophet was to foretell events (mainly Jesus), and to "thus sayeth the Lord". Jesus has come. He is the great Prophet (Acts 7:37) and the Word of God. No one else is needed but Jesus. Third, the NT offices are for the equipping of the saints, and not vice-versa.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/12


Jerry, since you do not understand my terminology by Law Age, let me rephrase.
Rom10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Christ is the end of the Mosaic Law and all it's ordinances, rituals, and ways of worship.
Concerning 1st Cor 1:8, or 2 Thes 2:8, I am in agreement that these both pertain to the second coming of Christ. We are not speaking of the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are speaking of the "day of the Lord" or the "notable day of the Lord".
Jerry, to understand what Peter is teaching, we have to keep the scriptures in context.
In Acts 2:16-36 Peter is making the point that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joel prophesy is being fulfilled at that time.
---trey on 9/17/12


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Trey: ".. it is mentioned with death and destruction upon those who are enemies with God."

I agree. But it speaks of the end of the "earth" - not the "Law Age" (whatever that is). It is the day of final judgement, and the burning up of the wicked.

1Co 1:8 ... that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:8 ... whom the Lord ... shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Joel 2:10,11 The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice ... for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible?


---jerry6593 on 9/17/12


Cluny, There are three modern, holy Prophets of GOD that I am familiar with, and they are Deborah Rennier, Jonathan Hansen and Elisabeth Elijah Nikomia. And, Elisabeth Elijah has been slandered and verbally stoned by many who claim to be christians, but, they are wrong for doing so, and are sinning against an anointed prophet of GOD Almighty. Just because there are things revealed that they don't understand nor bother to seek GOD's Face about. But, there's three so far.
---Gordon on 9/16/12


Do you believe we are still living in the Law Age?
---trey on 9/16/12

Neither of these specified "ages" exists in the Writings.

Using unscriptural and theological terms is unsound and dangerous.

The Scriptures call this present age "wicked".

You are correct about the true meaning of "the day of the Lord", or "the Lord's day". It will be a time of judgment, not grace.
---Phil on 9/16/12


Jerry, the phrase "the Day of the Lord" appears 29 times in the scriptures, if my count is correct. Every time it is mentioned it is mentioned with death and destruction upon those who are enemies with God. It is always mentioned as a warning for the elect child of God.

Jerry, even in 2nd Peter, it is a forshadowing of the end of the Law Age and the coming in of the Kingdom of God / Grace Age.

It is my belief that we are currently living in the Kingdom of God age. Do you believe we are still living in the Law Age?
---trey on 9/16/12


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original question? so true ):
---kevin5443 on 9/15/12


\\Cluny, Prophets of GOD that are despised after Pentecost? REVELATION 11:3-12 tells of the "Two Witnesses who "...shall prophecy..." during the Great Tribulation. \\

This has not happened yet.

\\They shall be treated just like many of the other Prophets before them! \\

In other words, you cannot give the names of post-Pentecost true prophets.

That is the question that was asked.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/12


Cluny, Prophets of GOD that are despised after Pentecost? REVELATION 11:3-12 tells of the "Two Witnesses who "...shall prophecy..." during the Great Tribulation. They shall be treated just like many of the other Prophets before them! Those Prophets' messages, the messages themselves, were ignored and/or despised, and, so the messengers were, in turned, killed. But, they were actually attacking GOD HIMSELF in reality. Because it was GOD Who sent them, and it was HIS Message that they were relaying.
---Gordon on 9/14/12


Even though Revelation and the letters of St. John, as well as his Gospel, were written afterwards?---Cluny on 9/13/12

Ac 7:58 ...and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Phm 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.

Ga 2:1 . Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem.

There is only conjecture about Paul's death, no proof. He was never charged with a crime by Rome.

Revelations is to the Jew of the endtimes. It is for our understanding, but not written to us.
---Phil on 9/14/12


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Cluny, Well, John the Baptist was so popular that he got his head chopped off.
---Gordon on 9/14/12


trey: Yes indeed, we agree on the nature of Christ.

As for the item of disagreement, I believe that your take on the day of the Lord being the destruction of Jerusalem in 71 AD and the ushering in of "the Kingdom of God Age" is not scriptural. I am confident that the scriptures teach the day of the Lord to actually involve the physical return of Jesus, as:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


---jerry6593 on 9/14/12


\\God's revelation to man is done. Paul completed what truth there is to know until His Son returns.\\

Even though Revelation and the letters of St. John, as well as his Gospel, were written afterwards?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/12


Jerry, I am sorry you do not understand the scriptures to teach the things I do. I cannot change your beliefs. If I explain the scriptures you listed but you wouldn't believe me, so why should I try?

If you are interested in my thoughts I would be happy to share them, if not, no harm done.

Can we both agree that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God and without his death on the cross and resurrection from the tomb we would have no hope of eternal life?

Hopefully we can agree on that.
---trey on 9/13/12


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Gordon on 9/12/12

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.

G4137 pleroo to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up

God's revelation to man is done. Paul completed what truth there is to know until His Son returns.

Anyone who believes themselves to be a Prophet is deceived and in darkness, no matter how sincere.

Ga 1:8 and 9 says a curse is upon those who stray from Paul's teachings.

Darkness of mind does not indicate sin alone. Ignorance is no blessing.
---Phil on 9/13/12


trey: Keep reading!

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

These signs are still future, as is "that great and notable day of the Lord". Compare them to their counterparts in Rev 6:12-17.


---jerry6593 on 9/13/12


Jerry, please follow the chain of events and keep the scriptures in context.
Acts chapter 2 - It was the day of Pentecost and the Holy Ghost filled all the holy men assembled together to worship with the Spirit of God. Verse 4 they began to speak in tongues (meaning other languages).
Keep reading - Verse 13 others began to mock and claim these men to be drunk.
Verse 14 Peter stands up and explains that these men are not drunk but ...verse 17, this is what was prophesied by Joel. Then we see quite a bit of symbolism describing the destruction of Jerusalem at the last days of the Law Age. The great and notable day of the Lord is the day God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. It was this event that ushered in the Kingdom of God Age.
---trey on 9/12/12


\\GOD's modern Prophets, just as the Old and New Testament Prophets were despised.\\

I don't know the names of any NT prophets--that is, after Pentecost--who were despised. Do you? Give BCV in your answer.

However, just who determines if someone is a real prophet of God?

More than once I've heard those claiming the title to say utterly unbiblical things.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/12


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Phil, There's no time limit on any of the five-fold Ministry Offices. If so, where is it stated in Scripture? Many in the religious community despise GOD's modern Prophets, just as the Old and New Testament Prophets were despised. To say that Apostles and Prophets no longer exist is a vain attempt to put a gag in GOD's Mouth by stating that HE no longer talks to people through modern Prophets when HE most certainly does. GOD's Prophets are despised because they declare tough-to-take Messages and Warnings, and the comfy, prosperity-craving, OSAS churches don't want to hear those Warnings of "Repent of your sin!" and of "Holiness unto the LORD!" They want SMOOTH words that talk of "SMOOTH SAILING with Jesus".
---Gordon on 9/12/12


Where did you get such an interpretation? Certainly not from Scripture!
---jerry6593 on 9/12/12

It is apparent from the Scriptures that the Jews were convinced it was the "last days", and the Lord would be returning while they lived.

Ac 1:6 . When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Hb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son,
Hb 9:26 now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

End of the world should be rendered end of the age.
---Phil on 9/12/12


trey: " "in the last days" meaning at the end of the Law Age World, or at the time of the Messiah."

I don't think so! There have been 2000 years worth of days since Joel was quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17-21. The context is clearly the events immediately preceeding the 2nd coming of Christ - not the current day at Peter's time (cf, Acts 2:19, 20).

Where did you get such an interpretation? Certainly not from Scripture!


---jerry6593 on 9/12/12


Jerry, you bring up a good point: "in the last days" meaning at the end of the Law Age World, or at the time of the Messiah. Joel and Isaiah 2:2

Joel:
Joe2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Note the "in those days", signifying at the time of the Messiah.
In other words that was for the time of the Messiah, to show that Christ is the Messiah.
---trey on 9/11/12


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Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things

That he might fill all things, Christ!


Mat_21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat_21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir, come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat_21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat_21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
---TheSeg on 9/11/12


Having been exposed to five-fold ministry for decades, I am of the belief that apostolic and prophetic offices were never exercised beyond Paul's time.

While the remaining three offices show evidence today of being in operation, no one meets the criteria outlined in scripture.

Dt 18:20

1C 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The latter citation is particularly important, for few that be that follow this injunction from God.
---Phil on 9/11/12


If you define Apostle as one whom is sent by God and gifted with extraordinary powers to support his witness. Nope, haven't seen it or heard of it, so I will assume the Apostles are gone.

Prophets however, I do still believe exist. But, whom wants to listen to a nay sayer? Certainly not our self centered, self serving church of Western culture! I do know they are out there, but they really are not appreciated and are considered fools - ignored by those they try to reach.....
---chip on 9/11/12


AV Ro 3:1-2 . What advantage then hath the Jew?...chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Jn 4:22 ...for salvation is of the Jews.

Ac 1:21 of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites, to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises.
---Phil on 9/11/12


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Steveng, I believe that many in the Church today disregard the modern Apostles and Prophets of today, partly because of false teachings against them abound, but, primarily, I suspect, (and this applies especially on their attitude towards TRUE modern holy Prophets of GOD) that many in the Church simply do not want to hear the hard Warnings and Truths that Prophets are sent by GOD to declare. For example, when they warn "REPENT, or face GOD's coming Judgment and HIS Wrath against your sin and evil!"
---Gordon on 9/11/12


***********

Let us hear from the scriptures:


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy:

***********
---jerry6593 on 9/11/12


Let us hear from the scriptures:
#1
Luke16:16 The law and the prophets WERE UNTIL John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
#2
Heb1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake IN TIMES PAST unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

If you doctrine is bible based and you have the ability to read and understand the scriptures then you can see that the time of the prophets is over.
---trey on 9/10/12


Now let us examine the Apostles:
....1Cor15:8 And LAST OF ALL he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1. An apostle had to see Christ.
2. An apostle had to be appointed by Christ.
2Tim1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
3. They had to be able to perform signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
2Co12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
I do not know a man living today that can be bitten by a poisonous snake as the Apostle Paul was and not be injured, or raise the dead as Peter did in Acts 9.
---trey on 9/10/12


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not against the few prophets and apostles. against all the false ones that make the false claim.
---aka on 9/10/12


One half billion Pentecostal Denomination Christians aren't against apostles and prophets in the chuch and believe they are totally relevant today.
---Darlene_1 on 9/10/12


Speak for yourself. The Orthodox aren't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/10/12


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