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Explain The Trinity

What is your understanding about Trinity?

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 ---bebe on 9/13/12
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Gordon- it wasn't another God and creator. If you believe God was talking to another creator, another God, then you enter the realm of polytheism. There is only one true God and creator.

When God at Genesis 1:26 used "us" and "our", he was addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the pre-human Jesus Christ.

'For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things'- 1Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition.

'Through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.' Col.1:16 (TEV).
---David8318 on 9/17/12


Follower, where does scripture call the HOLY GHOST aka the Holy Spirit an "IT".

The Holy Spirit is a person, not an it. Scripture always capitalize Holy Spirit too when speaking of the person of the Holy Spirit.


So much for the:

~humble follower of the Rock and lover of The Eternals truth (KJV) Matt 16:18, Corin 10:4, 2 Thess 2:10 1 Pet 2:21

What's the Eternals Truth above mean? Do you mean EternalS as in two and not three? Or was that just a typo?
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


Phil, There are many spirit beings, but, they are what they are, be they evil or good. But, there is only one Holy Spirit. When YAHUSHUA (JESUS) was baptized, all three Persons of the GOD-Head were actively present in participating in YAHUSHUA's Baptism. Read MATTHEW 3:16-17. YAHUSHUA Himself was in the river. The Holy Spirit came down onto YAHUSHUA from Above and lighted on Him. And, then the Father's Voice out of Heaven exclaimed and affirmed His Son (while the Son and the Spirit were below). All Three from different places came together in concert to affirm the Son's Baptism.
---Gordon on 9/17/12


Follower_of_Christ, you know what I find Interesting.
A person who calls himself, Follower_of_Christ!
But, cannot do what the Lord has commanded him to do.

Namely, Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in three distinct name!
The Name of The Father!
The Name of The Son!
The Name of The Holy Ghost!

Also note The Son is The Word of God made Flesh, Jesus Christ!
And as Flesh is nonetheless still, The Word of God!

So, make no mistake in what you believe.
As john said in 1Jn_5:7!
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

For you are saying this record is not true!
Deal with it.
---TheSeg on 9/17/12


On reasoning that Holy Spirit is deity.

spirit of jealousy
spirit of judgment
spirit of burning
spirit of counsel
spirit of knowledge
Spirit of life
spirit of prophecy
seven Spirits of God

Why not include all spirits connected to the Father of spirits as being deities?
Why only the holy spirit?

Now we have more than just a trinity.

This is reasoning completely the point of argument. It is human and without evidence.
---Phil on 9/17/12




Warwick that's a ridiculous, laughable argument. So you quoting Morenz must therefore make you agree the trinity has "direct links" with Egyptian paganism!

My use of Morenz shows that a Professor of Egyptian religion believes Christendom's trinity which he supports has "direct links" with ancient pagan Egypt. I disagree the trinity is Biblical. But I agree the trinity is linked to pagan Egypt.

Maybe Morenz enjoyed believing the trinity had "direct links" to pagan Egypt.
---David8318 on 9/17/12


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Interesting, well I won't bother to cite the obvious yet can't help myself!! the word he was added by the translators and is not part of Greek manuscript and that is no secret!!. Further and the most important part sit up, pay attention!!! Where does it say the holy spirit is God? It doesn't say the holy spirit is God here either!!! You can quote every passage the holy spirit is mentioned and not one verse states it is a deity or an entity.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/17/12


phil, this was buried rather quickly. please address:

You take this out of context to support something that is clearly not stated anywhere in the Holy Scriptures.
---Phil on 9/16/12

Here's a salutation that is quite clear from Paul's gospel:

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

//The body of Christ is heavenly, not of the earth. It is comprised of Gentile and Jew who accept and retain Paul's Gospel.// Phil

are you not backing your own statement?
---aka on 9/16/12
---aka on 9/17/12


David8318, Who are the "US" and "OUR" in the following Verse of GENESIS 1:26? "And GOD said, 'Let US make man in OUR Image, after OUR Likeness...'" To Whomever GOD was speaking, they had to have had the same Image and Likeness as GOD had. And, who else would have the Image of GOD, but GOD Himself? Who else has the Power to create like GOD? Whoever it was that GOD was talking with had to have had the Power to create like GOD, for HE said "Let US make man..." Who are the "US" that GOD was talking with?
---Gordon on 9/17/12


'Over to you, David, if you're man enough'- Marc.

Always up for highlighting Marc's polytheist bent. Marc is still pushing polytheism: Three God's sharing love with eachother for an eternity past.

Does God have to share love to experience it? Marc's answer- "yes". I disagree. Marc doesn't quite understand 1 John 4:8 which states, 'God is love'. God doesn't have to share something he already IS to experience it. There must be a recipient? This is putting God on a human level, which is what the pagan trinity does of course.

In the trinitarian mind, there has got to be another God around for God to experience existence. This is man-made Hellenic philosophy- polytheism - & is straight out of Plato's text book.
---David8318 on 9/17/12




David, I will always admit to the truth, and the truth is that Morenz, whom you selectively misquote says "...the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost." What does he mean by substance? The prime meaning of substance is physical reality therefore Morenz is saying the Trinity is a Biblical reality. As you have used him to support your case you must, unless you are an hypocrite, accept the Trinity is a Biblical reality.
---Warwick on 9/17/12


"The Three Divine Persons are in constant fellowship with One Another." Gordon

What scripture(s) say anything like this? We are far beyond the pages of God's inspired word with this sort of statement.
---scott on 9/17/12


..you're saying that not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit are God.
Do I understand you correctly, Phil?
---Cluny on 9/16/12

I merely point out the passage cited is a salutation, not a description of deity.

I address only the context of the passage, and do not infer anything beyond its scope.

It is a declaration of God, not a description of Him. It is weak evidence to support a triune godhead.

However, this passage is very plain and direct:
1C 8:6 But to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Now, note what follows:
1C 8:7 . Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge:
---Phil on 9/17/12


//Of course the holy spirit is not God because the above passage does not make that statement and nothing in new testament states the holy spirit is a deity.//
Follower_of_Christ on 9/17/12

Of course the Holy Spirit is not God and I know there is nothing, I can say to change that!

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see!
For a Spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have!

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit!
Joh_14:28
It's ok, Peace
---TheSeg on 9/17/12


aka, Amen! That all makes perfect sense, doesn't it? When GOD created Adam, that was not the complete picture of HIS Design for mankind. Adam, by himself, was not made in GOD's Image. It was the basic human family. For, by the human family would mankind reproduce itself and then be able to fulfill GOD's Mandate to "Be fruitful and multiply and subdue the Earth." GOD is a relational GOD. The Three Divine Persons are in constant fellowship with One Another. And, they desire fellowship with the creatures which They made in Their Image. As you alluded, men and women are different. Women are as valuable as men. They are created in the Image of the motherly Holy Spirit.
---Gordon on 9/17/12


Are you man enough Warwick to admit this fact!? Or will you continue in your malicious deceit? Deceiving others, covering over where your apostate pagan trinity came from!? Man up Warwick, be like Morenz, admit your trinity is 'linked' to pagan Egypt. Let's see who is deceitful.
---David8318 on 9/15/12

David,

Are you also saying that Jehova is link to a pagan god as well?
---Ruben on 9/17/12


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"Does God have to share love to experience it?...Actually, yes." Marc (1)

Says who?

1. This "argument" is an extra-biblical exercise in philosophy or meta physics. God's word makes no statement that supports Marc's conclusion. (Actually made by Augustine in the 5th Century and C.S. Lewis in more recent times).

2. It's worth noting that John is speaking in the present tense- "God is love". He does not say that God has been love eternally. That is an exercise in eisegesis, not exegesis.

3. Jesus said to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31). Is some form of 'self love' appropriate for Christians but not for God?

Continued
---scott on 9/17/12


"Does God have to share love to experience it?...Actually, yes." Marc (2)

Says who?

4. Can it be said that a man who has never truly loved a woman or children prior to marrying or starting a family never possessed the quality of love before hand?

The potential and the quality is there always, otherwise it would not have surfaced as a manifestation of its existence.

5. This is the type of strange "argument" that trinitarians are left with as their "proof" texts are easily dismantled. Theological gymnastics become necessary to say what God's word does not. And the simple truth is that no scripture says that God is made up of three persons.
---scott on 9/17/12



\\baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!
So, then Christ must be a pagan!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/16/12

This is not God's explanation of Himself. ...Nothing in this passage is descriptive of Deity, His essense, attributes, or His state of being.\\

So, then, you're saying that not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit are God.


Of course the holy spirit is not God because the above passage does not make that statement and nothing in new testament states the holy spirit is a deity. Statements describing the Father in Heaven and the Lord Jesus as deities however not one statement ever expresses the power of God, his holy spirit, as a God or an entity.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/17/12


Phil, Christ told you in Joh_16:7
It's expedient for you that I go away!

For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.
But if I depart, I will send him unto you!

Now, Joh_16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth!

Joh_16:28
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world:
again, I leave the world, and go to the Father!

The Son of God goes to The Father, who is God and sends, The Comforter.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost!
Or The Spirit of God!

The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.
Nothing here is pagan! Just God's Word
God bless, Peace
---TheSeg on 9/17/12


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You take this out of context to support something that is clearly not stated anywhere in the Holy Scriptures.
---Phil on 9/16/12

Here's a salutation that is quite clear from Paul's gospel:

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

//The body of Christ is heavenly, not of the earth. It is comprised of Gentile and Jew who accept and retain Paul's Gospel.// Phil

are you not backing your own statement?
---aka on 9/16/12


\\baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!
So, then Christ must be a pagan!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/16/12

This is not God's explanation of Himself. ...Nothing in this passage is descriptive of Deity, His essense, attributes, or His state of being.\\

So, then, you're saying that not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit are God.

Do I understand you correctly, Phil?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/12


Yes, Satan has his counterfeits of the real Trinity. People have God and Satan mixed up. Satan's spirit is the one impersonal and only with force. But "God is love" and personal, with sharing Persons who have special love functions. The Father has overall control, Jesus heads the church, and the Holy Spirit mothers the children and prepares us for our Groom.

Jesus is "the image of God," we have in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Like how an image of gold can be in a form but also be elsewhere, God is in the form of Jesus but also is God elsewhere (c: The Holy Spirit is personal, "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5). So, the Holy Spirit is a Person of love, not only a "force".
---willie_c: on 9/16/12


baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!
So, then Christ must be a pagan!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/16/12

This is not God's explanation of Himself. It is a salutation, similar to
The Whitehouse, President and the Congress of the United States".

Nothing in this passage is descriptive of Deity, His essense, attributes, or His state of being.

You take this out of context to support something that is clearly not stated anywhere in the Holy Scriptures.
---Phil on 9/16/12


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---Gordon on 9/16/12

i believe that.

let's make humankind in our image. a family...what else?

would a man be a very good comforter? how can you have a son without a father and mother? (except if you were in a sitcom from the late 50s to present...and that does make you wonder...where did mom go?...who are these "women" now who are replacing them?)

the family is under siege. is it a coincidence that the world is trying to change our perception of God and family?
---aka on 9/16/12


The trinity started in paganism and is still representing paganism doctrine,yet accepted and preached today.

Yes trinity is preached without any authority from holy scripture because Apostles and the Lord Jesus never spoke of any other Gods. Nothing in old or new testament describes any other God, or a third deity, or the babylon gentile god of three deities within one entity.

Scripture confirms there is the Father in heaven and the Lord Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Confirmed in John 1:1 and John 1:14
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/16/12


"John 4:24- God is (a) Spirit"- aka

Context is key.

The Greek pneu'ma comes from pne'o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru'ach is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru'ach and pneu'ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have various meanings beyond that basic sense.

The very same word(s) can mean wind, the vital force in living creatures (yes, including animals), ones spirit, spirit persons (including God and his angelic creatures) and Gods active force, or holy spirit. (See Koehler and Baumgartners Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879, Brown, Driver, and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926, etc.
---scott on 9/16/12


David, did Christ say:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Not just to David, but to all of you.
Here you have a command, clearly from the Word of God, Himself, Jesus Christ!
Commanding you to teach everyone to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you!

One of them being to go to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!
So, then Christ must be a pagan!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/16/12


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David: "Does God have to share love to experience it?"

Thanks for the response.

Actually, yes.

However, you skirt around the problem. If 'love' means anything, there must be a recipient. Love must be toward someone. That's what love is. Please explain - I know you won't - how you can love but not have any recipient, unless, of course, you love yourself (shades of pagan Aristotle!).

This is the single biggest failure of JW theology arising from making Jesus a created being. The fact that the Bible declares Jesus YHWH solves the problem of how God who is love from eternity could love from eternity: the Father eternally loves the Son and the Son, the Father.
Over to you, David, if you're man enough.
---Marc on 9/16/12


Toby, To understand the Holy Triune GOD is easy, in a sense. It was the human family of father, mother and child that was patterned after the Triune GOD-Head of Father, Holy Spirit "Mother" and the Son. That Triune Image is the Image that mankind, the human family, was made in the likeness of. It's not the other way around. If there is a Father and a Son, there must be a Mother, and there is, it's the Blessed Holy Spirit.
---Gordon on 9/16/12


"you have Morenz saying the Christian Trinity is from Egyptian theology, not Scripture."- Warwick.

I merely quote what Morenz wrote in his book about the "direct links" your pagan trinity has with Egyptian mythology. Morenz believes the trinity is also scriptural, that makes him a trinitarian, but like you, a confused one.

I don't really care whether Morenz is a trinitarian or not. He did spend most of his life studying Egyptian religions, was a Professor at Leipzig University... probably knew a bit more about pagan trinities than you would care to investigate.

You are too blind to realise it is your selective quoting that ignores the "direct links" your trinity has with pagan Egypt.
---David8318 on 9/16/12


'What, we are saved by a creature?'- Warwick.

Warwick clearly believes it is impossible for any created being to show perfect obedience to God. A created being sold us into sin, but no created being can save us! (Ro.5:12)

Trinitarianism teaches created beings will never and can never show perfect obedience to God. There is no hope according to this pagan trinity teaching. We're all doomed!!

Warwick's incredulous question therein reveals the apostate, antichrist nature of the pagan trinity dogma (1 John 4:2,3).
---David8318 on 9/16/12


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Paul says, "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5) If the Holy Spirit is sharing God's own love with us, I'd say this is very personal. Also, if this is "in our hearts", God sharing His love with us "in our hearts" is deeply personal.

But Satan is the one who is so impersonal. People can have Jesus and Satan mixed up. There are also denominational people who treat our Father like He is distant, not interested in personally communicating with His own children. But Jesus even talked personally with Satan. God who "is love" is personal, not conceited and distant! (c:
---willie_c: on 9/16/12


John 4:24 God is (a) Spirit:

if the JWs claim that the Spirit of God (pnuema) is an impersonal force, and it says God (theos) is spirit (pneuma), aren't they saying God is an impersonal force too?
---aka on 9/16/12


For all their reading some are still really confused.
Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world.
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/16/12


The trinity originally came from Babylon to Egypt as the father, mother, and son.
When the modern day understanding took hold it was changed to father, son and spirit. Question: The Father and the Son are Spirit so where does the "other" spirit come from? The trinity started in paganism and is still representing paganism doctrine,yet accepted and preached today.
---toby on 9/16/12


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David, by selective quoting you have Morenz saying the Christian Trinity is from Egyptian theology, not Scripture. But Morenz says "...the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost." You would have us believe such as Athanasius imposed the Trinity upon Scripture. Morenz says no, it is there for all to see!

Morenz a Trinitarian? I don't think so. He just admits the obvious, that the Christian Trinity of 1 God in 3 persons (not 3 Gods represented as one) comes directly from Scripture, just as we have always said. You would have us believe that God the Son, Creator and sustainer of all things is a created being. What, we are saved by a creature?
---Warwick on 9/16/12


According to willie and Marc on 1John 4:8, trinitarians believe unless you have a family, you do not have love! Unless you have "someone else", you can't experience 'love'.

1 John 4:8 states, 'God is love'. Does God have to share love to experience it? Is God somehow deficient if there is 'no one else' around (Marc's reasoning). Trinitarians misunderstand 1 John 4:8. God doesn't just have love, "God IS love".

No wonder the JW that called at Marc's door didn't give him much time. It doesn't take very long to identify a polytheist who insists God must have "someone else" in the eternity past before creating to experience love. RCC lords of polytheist trinitarianism have Marc under their cosh.
---David8318 on 9/15/12


Siegfried Morenz- Warwick.

Yes everyone knows Morenz is a trinitarian Warwick. JW's don't deny that. What I point out is Morenz is honest enough to admit in his book where the trinity came from. There is no deceit from JW's in quoting what Morenz knows to be the truth.

The deceit of course is from the likes of you Warwick. At least Morenz is man enough to show where the trinity of Christendom has "direct links" with pagan Egypt.

Are you man enough Warwick to admit this fact!? Or will you continue in your malicious deceit? Deceiving others, covering over where your apostate pagan trinity came from!? Man up Warwick, be like Morenz, admit your trinity is 'linked' to pagan Egypt. Let's see who is deceitful.
---David8318 on 9/15/12


"I'm not here to argue." Marc

Another quote from the bag of "magic" quotes-

Jesus said:

"As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'...If the home is deserving (axios), let your peace rest on it, if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town." Matt 10:7, 13-14
---scott on 9/15/12


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David do you accept that Siegfried Morenz did write as I quoted, including "...the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost." (Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz, p254-257).
---Warwick on 9/15/12


\\When I attempted to dispute his ARGUMENT, he said, "I'm not here to argue."\\

The way to handle JFWs is not to argue.

Simply refuse to surrender control of the conversation. There's a difference. When I do that, they leave in 5 minutes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/12


//JW mates ignore it and prefer to endlessly quote from their bag of magic quotes,// marc

do not try to go toe to toe with them. they are sent out in pairs designed not to let you have time to rebut.

when they knock on my door (and talk with them outside my house), i lay one simple ground rule. only one can speak and quote scripture. if the other one speaks, conversation is over. then, i simply state that Jesus is the Christ and not Michael. then, i let one speak. when i start my rebuttal, the other one cannot help to jump in. they are trained that way.

then, conversation is over, and i confessed that Jesus is the Christ as I should. no arguing and i can enjoy the rest of my day.
---aka on 9/15/12


A JW knocked on my door today. When I attempted to dispute his ARGUMENT, he said, "I'm not here to argue." i.e. 'I'm not here to address the shortcomings in my theology - I'm here to tell you what my lords in Brooklyn have told me to say.' This is exactly what Scott and David do. Present a logical argument (e.g. how can God be love and love no one before he created Jesus? i.e. you've got to love someone to be love), and our JW mates ignore it and prefer to endlessly quote from their bag of magic quotes, usually about irrelevant pagan pseudo-tritheistic Egypt/Babylonian entities. Scholars! Impressive!
---Marc on 9/15/12


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"'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (John 5:22-23)
---willie_c: on 9/15/12


1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (The Lord), and the Word was with God (The Father), and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/14/12


My understanding about The Trinity is this.
God is everything there is, and there is nothing outside of God!

Christ said:
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So if you really want to blame someone for The Trinity. Christ is your man, because he said:
Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!

If you don't understand it, ask him!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/14/12


There are no other gods mentioned here. In fact, in all the entire new testament, there are never any other gods mentioned by the Lord Jesus or by the Apostles.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/14/12
OK
---francis on 9/14/12


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"Thank for the info - [1 John 5:7,8]" RichardC

You're welcome. The verse[s] are generally referred to as the 'Comma Johanneum' (for your research purposes).

How they ended up (and still remain) in some versions of the Bible is an interesting topic.

(Trinitarian) scholar Robert Young [Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Young's Literal Translation of the Bible, etc.] writes in his Concise Critical Commentary:

"These words are wanting [lacking] in all the Greek MSS except two, in all the oldest Ancient Versions, and in all the quotations of v. 6-8 in the ancient Fathers before A.D. 475" Note for 1 John 5:7, Baker Book House, 1977.
---scott on 9/14/12


Ok, Cliff (c: you wrote >

Willie c: "Father son and spirit one happy little family"
First time I've heard it put that way. Which one is the "wife"?

That is not how I put it.

The Bible does say God made man in His image, and man is a family being of more than one person. And the Holy Spirit does help our Father. The Holy Spirit does care for us who are God's children. And "He" prepares us for our Groom Jesus. "Usually" a mother helps her husband care for their children and prepares their daughter for her groom (c: And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5). No lesser being can be the Spirit of God's very own love, I offer (c:
---willie_c: on 9/14/12


Looked it up in every version I have available.

It's not there.

Tried to read about it, looked at a lot of explanations of "learned men" on the subject of a triune god. Couldn't understand what they were saying.

Funny, if it's such an essential doctrine in Christendom, how come God never mentions it in His Writings?

1C 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.

Sometimes it's easier to believe God, and not men.
---Phil on 9/14/12


Scott 9/14/12 - Thank for info -

Started research on Will Barclay. He wrote - No were does the New testament identify Jesus with God - i find that not true, and buy stating that he breaks a rule of the Bible I think - Rev- 22:19 - you have to take in account The whole book - OT and New - As far as accuracy of tranlation - I Know there are some mistakes. But the thing is how much is in control is GOD, And if that 100% - I think God can keep his Word accurate. But for me more research,
---RichardC on 9/14/12


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Francis I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly. I do not believe in the trinity because it was not taught by Apostles or the Lord Jesus. The son, of God the Father, is the Lord Christ Jesus who is also a God, or more appropriately they are Elohim.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

There are no other gods mentioned here. In fact, in all the entire new testament, there are never any other gods mentioned by the Lord Jesus or by the Apostles.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/14/12


Thomas Jefferson on the Trinity, 1813

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three, and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one...But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests..."

"The genuine and simple religion of Jesus will one day be restored: such as it was preached and practised by himself. Very soon after his death it became muffled up in mysteries, and has been ever since kept in concealment from the vulgar eye. To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be...

...strengthened by education."
---scott on 9/14/12


The Vedas (baskets of wisdom) holy writings of the Hindu religion point to Vishnu as the saver,Siva is the destroyer and Brahma as the head god, but they are one triune entity.
Another reason God emphatically declared Deut.6.4 that He was no combination of gods but ONE and only ONE God!
He does not need helpers!
Out of love He begot a Son to share His glory who is faithful of whom God declared "This is MY Son whom I love,with him I am well pleased" Mat.3.17. (NIV)
---1st_cliff on 9/14/12


When dealing with deceitful people such as the Jehovah's Witness you cannot believe what they quote, as has been shown many times. You must go to source and there you will see how their selective quoting distorts truth. Morenz says: "In order to avoid any gross misunderstanding, we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament, probably for liturgical reasons." (Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz, p254-257)

Did you get that David "...the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
---Warwick on 9/14/12


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They are "one", meaning they are all in common for nature and how They relate with each other...'- willie.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: 'The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms... The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.' (New York, 1965), p. 899.

Willie, you claim you are not influenced by paganism or the RCC, but you clearly employ Hellenic philosophy to understand God. Why?
---David8318 on 9/14/12


\\In the book 'Egyptian Religion', Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians ...\\

Does Morenz give the names of any of these pre-Christian Egyptian theologians?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/12


David8318* It (the trinity) had its origins in Ancient pagan Egypt. The Egyptians, long before God's Son came to earth worshipped their god's in groups of three, even speaking of them in the singular- as a triune (Osiris, Isis, and Horus). Babylon also had its triads of god's.

What is amazing about David comments is, these descriptions don't even attempt to sound Trinitarian! No one source would even suggest that the Trinity was built on this pagan gods. Also The Egyptians went by a book, shouldn't David throw away his NWT Bible, just a thought:)


---Ruben on 9/14/12


In the book 'Egyptian Religion', Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians ... Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology." David

Maybe with more sources and page numbers, as far as we know this could be anti-Christian source( How much to you want to bet it is?:)

Question: If such a thing was already full blown, why did it take so long for the early Christians to embrace it?
---Ruben on 9/14/12


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In Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen such as Athanasius, influenced by this pagan Egyptian trinity myth formulated ideas that led to Christendom's apostate trinity. Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity." (Of course this is apostate trinitarian 'Christianity')
---David8318 on 9/14/12

David knows there is no real evidence that Athansisus for that matter any other ECF claim to or taught a false pagan doctrine...
---Ruben on 9/14/12


The trinitarian 1 John 4:8 argument is a fallacy for the trinitarian presumption is that God has 3 other individuals to share the love God has (father, son and ...um wife). But shouldn't they all be "one", all knowing, omniscient etc...!? But now the trinity Godhead share love amongst themselves- a family of God's'! How quaint!

Marc argues, "there was no one else to love" if God is on his own. Marc of course believes there was someone else to love, how else can Marc understand 1 Jo.4:8 other than there being another God!?

Further conclusive evidence willie and Marc promote not just the pagan trinity but pagan polytheism. For an eternity past 3 God's have been sharing love among themselves.
---David8318 on 9/14/12


Don't conflate my all-too-brief synopsis with someone else's. That's unfair to both.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (as opposed to charicatures by unbelievers) says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the sane nature/substance/essence (ousia in Greek).

C. S. Lewis's MERE CHRISTIANITY, especially the section "Beyond Personality" gives a good summary of a teaching on which books have been written throughout the centuries.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/12


Willie c: "Father son and spirit one happy little family"
First time I've heard it put that way. Which one is the "wife"?
Cluny, Slight-of-hand mathematics? Husband and wife are "one flesh" is it husband "times" wife or plus wife??? I believe 1plus1 are always 2 (a pair) plus one more is three! (a crowd)
So the "godhead" is a crowd?
---1st_cliff on 9/14/12


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1 John 5:7- RichardC

Bible translator Dr. William Barclay:

"The facts are as follows. First, it [vv. 7b-8a] does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it...

...The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts."
---scott on 9/14/12


The Trinity is that GOD is not "One Divine Person". It is that Almighty GOD is a Divine Unification of Three Divine Persons. Father, Holy Spirit and Son. They are all ONE, just as a human father, mother and child(ren) are ONE family. One family unit. The human family was created in the Image of the Triune GOD. GOD created man first. Then, woman from man, and then, the children via the physical union of the man and woman. But, in the end, the first family was what GOD intended from the Beginning. And, that family structure is what is made after the Image of GOD. Some argue against the validity of I JOHN 5:7, but, it's Canonical Scripture! And, MATTHEW 3:16-17 shows the Holy Trinity in action together.
---Gordon on 9/14/12


In the book 'Egyptian Religion', Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians ... Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

In Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen such as Athanasius, influenced by this pagan Egyptian trinity myth formulated ideas that led to Christendom's apostate trinity. Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity." (Of course this is apostate trinitarian 'Christianity')
---David8318 on 9/14/12


Keep in mind it's NOT by addition.

It's by multiplication.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/12

that may be true for the trinity, but

elohim is by exponentiation (1 x 1 x 1) and addition and synergy:

3 = 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

parallel:

3 separate branches of govt = executive + legislative + judicial = 1 federation

the three are separate, but can only stand by themselves individually and cannot stand if one wants to do another branches function.

another parallel: 1 father + 1 mother + 1 child = 1 family.
---aka on 9/14/12


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There is no mention of any other Gods in the new testament writings.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/13/12

If I understand you correctly. ( i hope i do)
You are suggesting that trinity as originaly taught by catechism includes Jehovah and two other pagan / heathen gods, or simply 3 pagan gods?
---francis on 9/14/12


"God is love". Exactly Willie.

And this is why David and Scott, our resident Watchtower representatives, have a theology which makes the above verse nonsense. How can the God of the JWs love if before Jesus was created there was no one else to love. Only if Jesus was never created, but is the son of God eternally, can the verse deliver its full message.

This, my Trinitarian friends, is exactly the nonsense Arisotle pushed, and I believe it's the same pagan error the JWs are attempting to promulgate on this blogsite.
---Marc on 9/14/12


trinity is explained by bible of catholic religion, catechism, as described by philosophers who taught trinity. trinity was not new it was worshiped by gentile nations. it is no secret catholics wanted power taking gentile gods merging them into teachings of the Lord Jesus and Apostles as found in the holy written word for purpose of recruiting gentiles. followers of the Lord Jesus do not follow catechism. God warned Israel trinity god baal. The heathen nations had many different gods. And still many in Israel wanted to follow these non-existent Gods and be like the gentile nations that surrounded them. The Father and his son the Lord Jesus are not part of a trinity. There is no mention of any other Gods in the new testament writings.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/13/12


1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word , and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.
---RichardC on 9/13/12


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"God is love" (in 1 John 4:8 & 16). A family of love has more than one person. Love has more than one Person. God made man in His image, and man is three basic family love persons > father, son, love-helping wife . . . like how God is three Persons of Family caring and sharing love > again > "God is love".

I did not get this from the Roman Catholic Church or from Egypt, by the way. So, please do not bear false witness (c:

Also, "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15) I offer that Jesus is not His own Father (c: They are "one", meaning they are all in common for nature and how They relate with each other in family love.
---willie_c: on 9/13/12


\\When asked to explain the trinity, trinitarians can only explain the trinity by defaulting to the apostate writings of the Catechism of the RCC.
---David8318 on 9/13/12\\

Then to whom or what did such great men as Athanasius, Augustine, and even Jean Chauvin default when they taught on the Trinity?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/12


\\The word "trinity" is simply the MATHEMATICAL SUM of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". \\

Keep in mind it's NOT by addition.

It's by multiplication.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/12


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