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When Did Salvation Begin

When did God purpose (plan) the salvation of his people? Some believe he devised the plan after the fall of Adam, and other before the world began. What do you believe and what does the bible say?

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3 John 1:5 SAYS, Dear friend, you are being faithful to God when you care for the traveling teachers who pass through, even though they are strangers to you.


It says NOTHING even close to what you posted Phil.

I read this verse in every version available on line and teh word Gentile is not even said or mentioned or referred to.

All these churches had VISITING people coming and going. These STRANGERS could be Jew or Gentile. They also could have been Angels. Scripture states we are to entertain strangers because they may be angels unaware. Nothing about TAKING from Gentiles...

Talk about really twisting and re writing scripture for what purpose?
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


Paul is telling Jews that they have to become DEAD TO THE LAW by the BODY OF CHRIST in order to be married to Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12

Romans 7:4 does not use marriage [G5220 hupandros] in the context you imply. It is a figure, not a doctrine.

However, it cannot be disputed that being in Christ absolves one from law-keeping.

Paul is pointing out that by being in Christ, the Jew is no longer bound to the law.

The body of Christ cannot marry itself.

The term "married to Christ" is not found in the Bible. If God did not say it, it is not true.
---Phil on 9/30/12


Paul speaking to JEWS:In Romans 7. Gentiles were NEVER under Law. Paul is telling Jews that they have to become DEAD TO THE LAW by the BODY OF CHRIST in order to be married to Christ.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

There is NO FRUIT apart from our spiritual/supernatural UNION with Christ.

John 15...

You cannot ABIDE IN CHRIST and HE IN YOU and not be IN THE BODY of Christ. John 19...that we all MAY BE ONE...

The Mystery....CHRIST IN YOU...Colossians 1!
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


Phil, I really don't know what Bible you are reading now but do you not know that John wrote Revelation? How can you miss such book? In fact it is the only book in the whole Bible that tells us it is the testimony of Jesus Christ, and comes with rewards. I suggest you get a good Bible. Scott, who I think is Mormon wanted to know why the Holy Spirit was not mentioned in a passage in (Rev.) and just because His name is not mentioned, it doesn't mean He was not included. It is the Spirit who reveals the truth to us. How can you know the truth without the Spirit? The same holds true for all those in the Old Testament, who knew the Truth, without the Spirit they would not know the Truth. And they argue the Spirit was nowhere to be found.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/12


Colossians 4:16
And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

I find it interesting this same Church in Laodicea is in Revelation.

Funny too, how Paul warns against Kingdom Now teaching in Colossians.

So Phil wants us to believe it was GOD who cause this persecution and CONFUSION between Jews and Gentiles preaching two opposing Gospels at the same time?

SATAN is the author of Confusion Phil.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/12




So I really wonder if John the Revelator really viewed his revelation as directed to the Jews of the 7 churches.
---elee7537 on 9/27/12

John never had any contact with the nations. He never left Jerusalem til he was exiled.

He would not have associated with the nations on equal terms.

"Church" is a misleading rendering. It has come to have the sense of an organization or fellowship, which is not the true meaning of ecclesia.

3Jn 1:5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren...Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.

John the Revelator spoke this.
---Phil on 9/28/12


I am surprised at your response. You seem to be ducking the answer.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/27/12

I do not know how to answer more directly. It is a figure, an illustration of singleness towards Christ.

Paul did not all of a sudden stop what he was saying to introduce a teaching.

Throughout the OT, God speaks to His people alluding to marriage and His relationsip to them. Jer.31:32 Deut.24:1-4 Hosea 3

The body of Christ is His body. He cannot marry Himself.

There is no such thing as the "bride of Christ" in the bible.

Re 19:7 for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
---Phil on 9/28/12


There is no mention of body of Christ as being the "bride".
---Phil on 9/26/12

I am surprised at your response. You seem to be ducking the answer. Paul even includes the name of Jesus in the passage.

The letter was written to the saved church at Corinth, who were the Body of Christ. We also are (a long way off) the children of the teaching of Paul and can read ourselves into the passage and we are the Body of Christ. So we see Jesus (Lamb) and the betrothed Body of Christ (bride).
---Mark_Eaton on 9/27/12


Phil //None of the so-called churches are Gentile. The Gentiles in this prophecy have a very small role.

While it is true in some cases the church was built around the Jewish synagogues, Gentile believers became the dominant control of the church.

So I really wonder if John the Revelator really viewed his revelation as directed to the Jews of the 7 churches.
---elee7537 on 9/27/12


The Unveiling, or Revelation of Jesus Christ, has not come, yet. It is a letter addressing the seven Jewish ecclesias, which are present prior to the tribulation period.

None of the so-called churches are Gentile. The Gentiles in this prophecy have a very small role.

It is an error to put the Gentiles in the place of the Jew as the recipient of this prophecy.

I do not think anyone who believes they understand it, yet fails see it is written for the Jew, could possibly have a correct understanding of its contents.
---Phil on 9/27/12




elee, great answer. Salvation begin before the foundation of the world. God knew the fall would come, that is why Jesus Christ was forordained as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20). In eternity past, before Adam and Eve sinned, God planned the redemption of some sinners through Christ Jesus (Acts 2:23: 4:27,28: 2 Tim. 1:9). "But was manifest these last times for you who through Him believe in God..." (1 Peter 1:21)
"For whom He foreknew (before the foundation of the world) He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son...." (Rom. 8:29,30). Paul speaks of "the eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord" (Eph. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 9/27/12


The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:24).
---kathr4453 on 9/26/12


When did our salvation begin?

Scripture tells us it all begin before the world was even created.

Eph. 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Beyond our acceptance of the salvation offered to us in Christ, it is all by God's grace.
---elee7537 on 9/26/12


Revelation 3:12

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Now compare this to the end of Revelation concerning the Bride and New Jerusalem.

Here in Rev 3 Jesus is speaking to the CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 9/26/12


---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12

I am pleased at your seeking out truth. I appreciate your seriousness.

A careful consideration of the passage does not indicate the Lamb/bride.

It is as one who gives his daughter in marriage and jealously guards that commitment. Which father will not do the same with their own daughter?

Paul is describing his great care for them, and how he feels towards them.

The context of the surrounding verses is one of protection against false teachers.

There is no mention of body of Christ as being the "bride".
---Phil on 9/26/12


---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12

I am pleased at your seeking out truth. I appreciate your seriousness.

A careful consideration of the passage does not indicate the Lamb/bride.

It is as one who gives his daughter in marriage and jealously guards that commitment. Which father will not do the same with their own daughter?

Paul is describing his great care for them, and how he feels towards them.

The context of the surrounding verses is one of protection against false teachers.

There is no mention of body of Christ as being the "bride".
---Phil on 9/26/12


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Phil, it seems your confused, you said,
"Master Mark, a careful study of the Word will reveal that the Bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ are not the same entity. This misunderstanding is common." Maybe commone to you.
Then you said,

"There is neither Greek nor Jew in the body. All are one. You cannot divide the body"

Neither Greek nor Jew" in the body, and that you cannot divide them. You first said the bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ are not the same. If they are not Jews nor Greek, who is the bride of Christ? Mexicans, Indians, how about muslims? What says you Master Phil?
Your confusion is, you still believe Israel is going to rule over the body of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12


Was Eve only said to be the body of Adam? Or was she not also the bride of Adam? Just as Eve was taken form Adam's side, so too is the church , HIS BODY. And the two shall become ONE.

WE, the Church as Paul states in Ephesians is bone of His Bone and flesh of His flesh, and this is a great mystery.

And just as Adam chose to die with Eve, so Christ also chose to die for us.

The Bible speaks of many mysteries, as in plural.


---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


If the bride of the lamb and the body of Christ are not one and the same, then heaven will be filled with concubines and adultery, which is impossible - making it a place of sin all over again. There is only one bride and bridegroom in a marriage. Any other way would make one an adulterer.

Hello again Brother Mark, and how are you keeping? I'm sure rather busy, seeing not much has changed all this time? If there's a way we can communicate on a personal level, let me know, I will fill you in on my absence. Peace and God be with you.
---christan on 9/25/12


a careful study of the Word will reveal that the Bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ are not the same entity.
---Phil on 9/25/12

If we (the church) are not the Bride of Christ, please explain who is the one husband we are betrothed to in this verse?

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12


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//Master Mark, a careful study of the Word will reveal that the Bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ are not the same entity. This misunderstanding is common.//

Well said Phil, but as you said, careful study
---michael_e on 9/25/12


MarkV, You are correct...

Sounds to me like EVERYONE is there:
Rev 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: ---
2 --- prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
----- I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
--- which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14 --- the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. From Adam/Eve to Abel to the end of time!
---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


I appreciate your thoughtfulness towards me, no doubt inspired by 2Pt 3:16, where Peter is trying to commend Paul's ministry of the secrets to them. The Lord's disciples had difficulty with it, because it did away with their superior status and earthly inheritances.

---Phil on 9/25/12

No it only gives them a superior heavenly status and heavenly inheritance. Just because many Peter wrote to had difficulty does not mean Peter had difficulty ... oh, unless Paul rebuking Peter for being a hypocrite in Galatia was. Do you think Peter ws still in the dark then too, or just two faced?

The WIFE of God is Israel Phil.

The Bride of the LAMB and the BOC are one in the same.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


Phil, all believers make up the Church that Christ will marry.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12

Master Mark, a careful study of the Word will reveal that the Bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ are not the same entity. This misunderstanding is common.

You are correct about the condemnation. The White Throne judgment is unto condemnation and death for all who obtain there.
---Phil on 9/25/12


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Who exactly are the celestial inhabitants?
And can you provide scripture to show where thyi9s is stated?
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places]

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

1C 15:48, Eph 1:3, Eph 1:20
---Phil on 9/25/12


So, either you will carefully look and meditate on GOD'S WORD or just turn a blind eye to your own destruction.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12

I appreciate your thoughtfulness towards me, no doubt inspired by 2Pt 3:16, where Peter is trying to commend Paul's ministry of the secrets to them. The Lord's disciples had difficulty with it, because it did away with their superior status and earthly inheritances.

There is neither Greek nor Jew in the body. All are one. You cannot divide the body.
---Phil on 9/25/12


What is really nuts here is Phil wants us to believe Abraham will be resurrected a mortal where the Church will Reign and RULE over him with a Rod of Iron---kathr4453 on 9/25/12

Lk 13:28 when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God.. And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

These are not celestial activities. They are literal prophetic declarations.

Mt 19:28 ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Hebrew will inherit the earth, according to promise.
---Phil on 9/25/12


What is really nuts here is Phil wants us to believe Abraham will be resurrected a mortal where the Church will Reign and RULE over him with a Rod of Iron. That our father Abraham will one day be subjected to Kingdom LAW, who never in his life was subjected to even Moses Law.

What a shock that wil be for poor Abraham who taught us FAITH and NOT WORKS. Who thaugh us through that FAITH we are ABOVE AND FREE!

Or Abel for that matter.

That is so messed up!

---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


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Brother Christan, welcome back. It is so nice to see you answer again. It is all in God's plan brother. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/12


The salvation of God to His people was from eternity, that is, before He even created the world and His people. How do we know this? Paul wrote and declared,

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" Ephesians 1:4

The fall of Adam was predestined and that's because, Peter wrote "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:19,20

That is, God was only going to glorify His Son in His plan of salvation, which simply means, the man MUST fall. Or how else will Christ be glorified?
---christan on 9/24/12


Very good Phil, worth repeating.

We are the body of Christ, citizens of heaven and spiritual persons, awaiting our Saviour out of heaven. We will reign with Him among the celestial inhabitants.

The body of Christ is one body. There are no divisions, no races.

We cannot take their place, and they cannot take ours.

One day, in the future, God will be All in all. Then the process we are in will be finished, and God will dwell in and with everyone.
---michael_e on 9/24/12


PHIL and Michael_e,

Hebrews 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of "the heavenly ( STRONGS 2032)((same word as Celestial aka Heaven)) calling," consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

Yet you say JEWS, have no part in the HEAVENLY CELESTIAL calling or life.

Remember Hebrews was written to Jews the same exact time as Paul was writing to Gentiles...THE EXACT SAME GOSPEL of a HEAVENLY Calling, not an earthly one.

So go look up 2032 in Strongs, meaning HEAVENLY, meaning celestial. Abraham too looked for this heavenly place. Hebrews 11.

So, either you will carefully look and meditate on GOD'S WORD or just turn a blind eye to your own destruction.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12


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We are the body of Christ, citizens of heaven and spiritual persons, awaiting our Saviour out of heaven. We will reign with Him among the celestial inhabitants.


---Phil on 9/23/12

Who exactly are the celestial inhabitants?

And can you provide scripture to show where thyi9s is stated?
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12


Phil, all believers make up the Church that Christ will marry. Christ is the Head and rules His Church. You said,
"God's people on earth are the Jews, awaiting Messiah's return to earth." The Messiah came and they missed Him. They might be God's chosen nation, to bring His Son and gospel. Only
God's children are His, who belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ by faith. Those who rebelled against God, and died in their sins, will wait for the sentencing at the Great White Throne of Judgment, they are condemned already
"He who believes in Him, is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". Jews included.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12


//Who said that the Gospels spoken to Jews Only???//
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision(Israel) for the truth of God,(why) to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.
I believe its recorded, He spoke to two gentiles in His earthly ministry. So apparently the gospels were spoken to the Jews with two exceptions.
---michael_e on 9/24/12


Kathr4453,
Thank you for your generous words.

God's people on earth are the Jews, awaiting Messiah's return to earth. A remnant has been saved out of them. They will rule over the nations during His reign.

We are the body of Christ, citizens of heaven and spiritual persons, awaiting our Saviour out of heaven. We will reign with Him among the celestial inhabitants.

The body of Christ is one body. There are no divisions, no races.

We cannot take their place, and they cannot take ours.

One day, in the future, God will be All in all. Then the process we are in will be finished, and God will dwell in and with everyone.

Abraham was Syro-Phoenician.
---Phil on 9/23/12


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John 3:14-16


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Who said that the Gospels spoken to Jews Only???, only promises a resurrection to become mortal again? and not eternal or everlasting life?

WHOSOEVER doesn't mean to Jews only.

God Gave Jesus to die on a cross, so where do you get the Idea that just believing Jesus existed in the flesh saves anyone?
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


Phil, funny but Abraham was not an Israelite. His grandsom was Jacob who was renamed Israel. And Israel after teh flesh are the 12 tribes. Please tell us what tribe Abraham was from?

And you say Abraham will be resurrected a "mortal"?

Do you even know the definition of "mortal"?

And you THINK those verses you gave state they will be resurrected to mortal status?

I don't see mortal status in any of those verses.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


Phil, can you provide any scripture for such an event! Who's going to unwrap the mortals?
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12

Abraham realized he would have to be resurrected out from among the dead ones,
for God to keep His promise. It was the hope of all Israel. It is life on earth.

Not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass til everything is accomplished with them. Mt 5:18

Dt 17:14
Dt 26:19
Dt 28:1
Dn 12:13
Lk 14:14
Jn 5:29
Jn 11:23-26
Ac 2:31,
Ac 24:15,
Re 20:4,
Mt 19:28
---Phil on 9/21/12


Gn 15:7 . And he said unto him, I [am] the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Abraham knew he would die before seeing this happen.

He also realized God would have to resurrect him in order to fulfill His promise.

God is God. He does not lie. He does not change His plans. As He speaks, so He does.

It is serious unbelief that the God Who makes promises does not fulfill them.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will inherit the Land of Promise, just as God declared. And they will be flesh and blood men.

This will happen, regardless of what men may believe or think.

Nothing will stop God from fulfilling His promise to Abraham.
---Phil on 9/21/12


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Jn 5:28 The dead here are raised to a mortal life.
It is not immortality.

It will be based on law keeping Mt 5:18.
---Phil on 9/20/12


So the dead HERE are rased to mortal life, where all come out of teh graves in their grave cloths, stinking to high Heaven, while others have to loose them from those grave cloths...WOW what a sight that will be.

I'm laughting so hard, I hurt myself banging my head on my keyboard.

Phil, can you provide any scripture for such an event! Who's going to unwrap the mortals?
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


MarkV, Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION.

What Jesus was showing with Lazarus was exactly that...It attested to Jesus being GOD who ONLY God alone can raise the dead.

You now put Jesus below the Holy Spirit.

Bad theology!

Life in IN His Son.

It is appointed for man ONCE to die and then the Judgement.

Jesus was in no way teaching a "MORTAL" resurrection, as is what Phil is trying to tell us here.

Those who have part of the FIRST resurrection will not be subjected to the second death...

If there is also a mortal resurrection, will they not also die again? If not, than it is an eternal life resurrection. Mortals are just that mortals who die!
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Funny Phil, here in John will not only be resurrected but have ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal life is Immortality.

And Jesus tells us in John 6, anyone who doesn't like this, is compared to Judas.

Judas wanted the earthly Kingdom RIGHT THEN, and betrayed Jesus because Jesus wouldn't THEN overthrow Rome and take the Throne.

Judas is also compared to the man of PERDITION Paul warns us of.

Those who teach Kingdom NOW are enemies of teh CROSS, as was in Galatia too.

Many will feed into your false doctrine and be deceived by one who takes and sit in the earthly throne pretending to be God.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


Phil, you are absolutely correct, Resurrection and Spiritual birth are not the same. When Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead it was a physical resurrection. When the Holy Spirit brings life to someone who is lost (considered dead in trespasses and sins Aka spiritual death) that is a spiritual birth. In the case of the Holy Spirit bringing someone to life, He makes them alive in Christ. They were already physically alive walking around lost without Christ doing the desires of their father the devil.
---Mark_V. on 9/21/12


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T Jn 5:21 For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth.

Resurrection and being made alive in Christ is not the same. Lazarus was resurrected from death.

Did he not die again?

Mt 27:52-53 And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection.

Are these saints alive today?

Resurrection G386 anastasis and being made alive in Christ G2227 zoopoieo are not the same.

Jn 5:28 The dead here are raised to a mortal life.
It is not immortality.

It will be based on law keeping Mt 5:18.
---Phil on 9/20/12


Romans 11:17 "... and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,"
John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Seems that there is only one vine, the same one olive tree where the rest, all the rest are branches.
---Nana on 9/19/12


2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Hebrews 2:99 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,the devil,.
The OPPOSITE of death is immortality AKA Eternal life. Blessed are those who have part of the FIRST resurrection,=eternal life.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


Phil on 9/19/12

Oh my gosh! Abraham will be resurrected but not have eternal life??? REALLY? So he is only going to be resurrected for a while and then die?

When Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham saw in a Vision the resurrection. Not only Isaac's, but Christ's.

IN ISAAC will thy seed be called.

Isaac represents the Heavenly Calling of the Church. Isaac, a Child of Promise, born through supernaturel means represent US, who are Born Again.

So are you actually saying NOW there are two entirely different Gospels preached to Jews NOW at this present moment? The Heavenly CALLED OUT and the earthly.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


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Phil, there was no mystery that Gentiles would be saved. God openly declared to Abraham that in thee will ALL families of the earth be blessed. ---kathr4453 on 9/18/12

It is on the earth this promise of blessing is directed.

It is through Abraham's offspring, Israel according to flesh, that this blessing will come to all nations.

Salvation is not in view with your citation.

Earthly, physical blessing, to all the nations, coming soon during the thousand year reign.

Abraham was not promised salvation to immortality.

A better resurrection, yes. Immortality? He had no clue.

Later revelation makes it easy for us to insert what is not true.
---Phil on 9/19/12


Michael_e, you said that the Jews never preached the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Isaiah 53 fortold the death of Jesus, Psalms 2 fortold the resurrection of Jesus.

you say in Galatians, the BLESSINGS of the Spirit that came to the Gentiles through Abraham was not salvation?

OH MY, so Gentiles are only blessed, not saved? I'm sad for you.

Then you say THE BLOOD was kept secret? YIKES!

You may want to read Acts 13 where Paul reiterated OT concerning Jesus and is preaching to both Jew and Gentile that same message. Same Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


//God openly declared to Abraham that in thee will ALL families of the earth be blessed.//

Blessed not saved,
Ishmael and his descendants have been blessed with lots of physical blessings.
---michael_e on 9/18/12


Phil, there was no mystery that Gentiles would be saved. God openly declared to Abraham that in thee will ALL families of the earth be blessed. To say that Gentiles being saved was a mystery is not true. The Mystery is that Gentiles are now partakers of the covenants of promise through the Blood Ephesians.

You're saying without realizing it, that Paul preached an unknown Gospel that was even a mystery to the Everlasting Covenant or the Abrahamic Covenant. That's what Joseph Smith did...and we know it is a false Gospel through that.

If the Spirit of Jesus Christ is not in you, you CANNOT be changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3, preached to Gentiles, reiterates that covenant promise first stated in the OT.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/12


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//Where does the Lord or His disciples preach equality with the Gentiles in one body?
---Phil on 9/17/12//
You are right on. They don't
The Lords earthly ministry was to Israel with few exceptions.
It is Paul's gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection, to Jew and gentile alike that brings equality.
---michael_e on 9/18/12


So yes, Paul did teach that being born again is a requirement!
---trey on 9/17/12

Ti 3:5 the washing of regeneration, paliggenesia G3824
Jn 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, G1080 gennao
Col 1:3 Does not contain the subject discussed here.
2C 5:17 a new creature: ktisis means creation, not creature. New heaven, new earth, new creations (that would be us.) Nothing about being gennao here.

There is no use of the words gennao anothen, born again, by Paul anywhere in his doctrine or writings. It pertains to flesh which is what the water portion inmplies. It does not apply to the Gentiles foreknown and justified by God.
---Phil on 9/18/12


Phil, you stated that Paul did not teach that being born again is a requirement.

Born Again means the same thing as:
Regeneration: Titus 3:5
Translated: Col 1:3
Being in Christ ...new creature: 2 Cor 5:17 (also Gal 6:15, By being born again we become a new creature)
Quickening (that is to be made alive from the dead): Eph 2:1
Circumcision of the heart (that is to give us a heart that loves God and feals the love of God and replaces our cold and stoney heart): Rom 2:29

So yes, Paul did teach that being born again is a requirement! If one is never born again, regenerated, quickened, etc. then they are dead in their sins!

Thanks be to God for the Holy Spirit that quicken us (makes us spiritually alive)!!!
---trey on 9/17/12


John 17:22-24

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one,, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Phil, here it is. Jesus prayer in John 17 touches on the Mystery Paul more fully explains.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


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Phil, John 17 does in fact tell us this, as well as John 3:16..."whosoever will" INCLUDED the Gentiles.


here is the Mystery.

Colossians 1:26-28
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Where does the Lord or His disciples preach equality with the Gentiles in one body?
---Phil on 9/17/12


Sorry Phil, In John, the only of the 4 Gospels, Jesus NEVER taught the earthly Kingdom. That is Matthew exclusively. No where in Matthew did Jesus tell anyone including John the Baptist, that they had to be Born Again.

If you read in Acts, there were some Paul found who ONLY had the baptism of John waiting for that earthly kingdom reign who had not even so much as even HEARD of the Holy Spirit. Paul said to them RECEIVE ye the Holy Spirit. So you accuse Paul of teaching TWO Gospels at once.

So, again Phil, you have the two kingdoms confused.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


Jesus was destined since "BEFORE" (John 17:24) the foundation of the world,...but He wasn't made manifest ("given") UNTIL the end of the "times" (this is now ETERNITY, the JESUS DISPENSATION). Jesus performed TWO "works of God".

1) purification salvation of the FLESH (on the cross).

2) the GIVING of God's Spirit (John 7:39) so that good students could have their CONSCIENCE purified by His Spirit of ETERNITY (Hebrews 9:14). Hebrews 4:3 "although his works were finished from the foundation of the world".

REDEMPTION salvation FOR ALL HUMANITY (flesh) took place at the cross, but the goal OF A BELIEVER should be to MOVE ON (go "ahead", 2 John 1:9, Hebrews 6:1).
---more_excellent_way on 9/16/12


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No one is a son of God apart from our New Birth IN CHRIST, unless you believe you are an angel ---kathr4453 on 9/16/12

It is the departure from the teachings Paul received from the Lord Himself that causes your confusion about being "born again".

It is not a requirement in any of Paul's teachings.

It is, however, required by any who desire to enter into God's Kingdom of heaven on earth.

Only Israel, and those they disciple in the next age, that will need to be born again.
---Phil on 9/16/12


One must first define "salvation." But from what worldly book do we seek an answer? A dictionary? A concordance? Some author's interpretation?

What about the Bible itself? To see how salvation is used in the bible do an online KJV bible search for the world "salvation." How many of you will read every verse?

Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Show us your mercy, O LORD, and grant us your salvation.
---Steveng on 9/16/12


We are sons of God by grace and faith.
---Phil on 9/15/12


Actually we are sons of God by the New Birth. You must be Born Again to be a begotten son through Jesus Christ.

You claim, like michael_e that only Jews are Born Again...correct. That John 3 was only speaking to Jews? Yet Galatians state clearly those in the flesh persecute those Born of the Spirit. The Spirit of the Life of Christ... The Spirit of GRACE that brings us to salvation IN CHRIST making us Begotten Sons..that is Born sons THROUGH Jesus Christ alone.

No one is a son of God apart from our New Birth IN CHRIST, unless you believe you are an angel.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/12


1 Peter 1:19-21

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/12


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The body of Christ is heavenly, not of the earth. It is comprised of Gentile and Jew who accept and retain Paul's Gospel.

We are not "His people".

We are sons of God by grace and faith.
---Phil on 9/15/12

agreed.
---aka on 9/15/12


Dt 7:6 ..the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

His choice and election stand. His promises will be kept. Or He is not God. Only one race will ever rule by the authority of God on earth.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The body of Christ is heavenly, not of the earth. It is comprised of Gentile and Jew who accept and retain Paul's Gospel.

We are not "His people".

We are sons of God by grace and faith.
---Phil on 9/15/12


1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion,

If God is not the author of confusion then suggesting God made a mistake and had to scramble to fix up the mess that Eve created because she was overcome by the subtle lies of Satan, and Adam was a poor leader would also be saying God is not in control and Satan is more powerful. The plan of salvation is found in the annual feasts. The Lord Jesus was not the last step in salvation he was the first step. However, the evidence suggests a plan: two different tree's with two different paths.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/15/12


God knew All from the Alpha( beginning. ) The Lord's death - burial & resurrection, then raised & went up from the mount. The dispensation of Grace, leading up to His Salvation Plan, Acts 2 v 38 was delivered to the Jewish people First by Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost. Then it was given to ( those that are afar off ) which Are the gentiles.
---Lawrence on 9/15/12


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Josef, very good answer you gave. I also agree with you. Thank you brother in the Lord.

Cluny, Of course God is outside of time, and when He purposed to do His plan it was before the foundation of the world when there was no such thing as time.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/12


Yes, God lives in eternity, and God's word says that "He chose us before the foundation of the world" (in Ephesians 1:4). So, it is meaningful to our Heavenly Father, that He chose us "before" the creation of this earth. But Satan indeed may not consider this to be meaningful.

For me personally, this is very meaningful, that God made plans "before" He created the world and He has stayed with His choice and is still succeeding (c:

But Jesus does say He is "the Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14). So, I'd say the real beginning of our salvation is not only "before" or whenever, but Jesus Himself is the beginning.
---willie_c: on 9/14/12


God being all knowing, would have known that man would sin, and the plan was from the conception of creation, even before creation
---francis on 9/14/12


Since God doesn't live in or experience time as we do, the question as posed here is meaningless.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/12


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"'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'" (Acts 15:18)
"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." (Ephesians 1:4)
willie_c: on 9/13/12
and
---Josef on 9/13/12 all

Amen

God bless
---Chria9396 on 9/14/12


"'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'" (Acts 15:18)

Well, then, Trey, there are people who have God and Satan mixed up. Satan is the one who is doing last-minute plans and changes, since the fall, and now he has his "damage control" nonsense that is doomed to fail.

But, even while there is all the evil in this world, God has been succeeding in doing all He planned before the world was > "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." (Ephesians 1:4) With this, see Romans 8:29. God bless you (c:
---willie_c: on 9/13/12


Trey: "Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things,..But with the precious blood of Christ,..Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,.." And "that wisdom was established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. Just as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,... In hope of eternal life, which God, [Who] cannot lie, promised before the world began, [And He] has saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 1Pe 1:18_20>Pro 8:23>Eph 1:4>2Ti 1:9
---Josef on 9/13/12


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