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Where Do The Dead Go

Which is true? The righteous dead remain conscious and go to be with God as spirits at the time of their death, or.... The righteous dead are resurrected from death (awakened from unconsciousness) at Jesus 2nd coming and go back to heaven with Him?

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/14/12
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The teaching that we posses a soul, is not biblical. the bible teaches that a living person is a soul.

A soul as pointed out in Genesis is the combination of a body with the breath of God it in.

Thus when one dies, the body and breath seperate. There is no more soul.
Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

What goes back to God at death, is thebreath which is in every human being

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Soul also refers to the deepesy desires of a person.
---francis on 9/27/12


SDA ... teach soul sleeping.
---trey on 9/26/12
As a SDA let me coreect this statement

SDA do not teach soul sleep,
The SDA position on a soul is THE BODY with THE BREATH OF GOD IN IT
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

SDA teach that at death the SOUL ( body and breath) is no more.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

SDA teach that death is as a sleep, and that one day those are are asleep will here Jesus voice and awaken.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
---francis on 9/27/12


sammuelbb7, you are correct, the SDA were not the first to teach soul sleeping. In looking into it's origins I believe it was first taught in a limited extent around the mid 1500's. This was hundreds of years before EGW and the SDA church sprang up. The doctrine was developed to counter the Catholics teaching of Purgatory.

The earliest christians never believed in soul sleep or purgatory. When we think about how the earliest christians learned from Christ and the Apostles and had access to the original manuscripts, then how could we believe that our understanding today is better than theirs?

Just something to think on.
---trey on 9/26/12


Edward Fudge a non Seventh Day Adventist Theologian wrote a book the Fire that consumes. You can read about him in wikipedia and he has a movie as well as his book. He like many others who are not Seventh day Adventist yet still are conditionalist. Unlike the lie perpetrated here that we are alone.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/26/12


look up Bro. Craig Edwards and listen to his sermon about who the anti christ is. there are 5 places the dead go but I can't remember them...so it is a very interesting sermon.
---shira4368 on 9/26/12




Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

the problem begins with the philosophers the catholic religion adopted and hence their idea that man is immortal which of course would make the gift of God worthless because it is immortality that God is offering with salvation. The next problem is so many prefer their false ministers who assign different meanings to plain scripture that states the dead are dead, they know nothing, and do not remember anything including God. the resurrection of all from the dead will happen at the return of the Lord Jesus, not before.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/26/12


elee, very good passages you gave. Jesus in His incarnation as a man, had body soul and spirit. It is pretty clear from Scripture. Jesus possessed a human rational soul and spirit. According to (Matt. 26:38), Christ said to His disciples: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" This could hardly be attributed to His dvine nature and therefore is a reference to the fact that He possessed a human soul.
A similar statement is given in (John 13:21) in regard to His human spirit where it is recorded:
"When Jesus had thus said, He was troubled in the spirit" From these and other passages it is evident that as indicated in His human body which was like ours, He had a body, soul and spirit.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12


Robin //Body + Breath of God(spirit) = Living Soul
---
More accurately Body + breath from God = living soul.

Scripture makes a distinction between soul, spirit and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God the Father did not receive just a breath from Jesus on the Cross as He committed His Spirit to God the father.
---elee7537 on 9/26/12


Body + Breath of God(spirit) = Living Soul
---Robin on 9/26/12


Samuel, you said,
"So why should I doubt what the Bible says?"

You should never doubt the Word of God. You should doubt your interpretation of the Word of God. The Word of God has one meaning that God wants to convey. Your interpretation is very important, since we apply Scripture to our everyday life. There is no incarnation. When a genuine Christian dies, his spirit goes to be with God. It does not die when the physical body dies, it does not go to sleep, and does not ever again separate from Christ. If you are born of the Spirit you are baptized into One body in Christ Jesus forever. Do not doubt that.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12




The Bible is very clear that man is composed of 3 entities - body, soul and spirit.
---elee7537 on 9/25/12

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

I see TWO: Body and Breath of God
---francis on 9/25/12


Mark you left out the Part about in the days of Noah.

Christians should believe what the Bible says and not tradition. So one of the things the Sprit is, is breath. That is not all it is. But it is not a thinking seperate entity that dwells inside of us.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

So why should I doubt what the Bible says?
---Samuelbb7 on 9/25/12


The Bible is very clear that man is composed of 3 entities - body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The body lies in the grave until the resurrection while the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ec 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Those that believe in soul sleep do not believe that there is a spirit within man.

They believe that spirit is breathe, so when jesus handed His spirit into God the fathers hands(Lk. 23:46), all God the fahter got was a blow of wind in the face.
---elee7537 on 9/25/12


There is no indication in any bible that any gift was given, or that anything was done from Friday evening whenJesus died, until Sunday morning when he rose.
---francis on 9/25/12

You are right. The Ephesians 4 passage does fit much better at Pentecost. Thank you.

However, the Eph 4 passage normally fits together with the following passage which is accepted as happening when the body of Jesus was in the tomb:

1 Pet 3:19-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12


Seems like there are some who quote Scriptures to give the impression that they are Christian but their heart wreaks of Buddhism all over. They believe that after death one will still return to earth "as it is" - sounds like reincarnation, doesn't it?

Sadly, that's not what the Scriptures is telling us in those verses quoted. Even satan and his cohorts know the Scriptures, but that doesn't make them Sons of God.
---christan on 9/25/12


---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

There is no indication in any bile that any gift was given, or that anything was done from Friday evening whenJesus died, until Sunday morning when he rose.

The one thing we know is that the apostles were not empowered during the time Jesus was in the grave, They were afraid, and even dicourages, but not gifted


The holy ghost came ~48 days later
---francis on 9/25/12


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---trey on 9/24/12
Every human being's spirit goes back to God at death:

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost
Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died

Jesus was no exception.

There is a difference between the spirit/ breath/ ghost and soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Notice it is the breath, spirit/ ghost given by God, combined with the body makes a soul

Jesus spirit returning to God is not the same as Jesus going to heaven.
---francis on 9/25/12


...today you will be with Me in Paradise.'...having a desire to depart and be with Christ,---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/12

G3857 paradeisos a park, KJV: paradise.

Isa 35:1-10 When the millennial reign comes, the earth will be redeemed and be like Eden. The Jews will oversee everything. This malefactor will have his portion because of his faith in the Christ.

2C 5:1 . For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God.

Paul presumes his translation to be an unrealized fact[1C 15:52], as should we.
---Phil on 9/25/12


Jesus himself had not gone to be with his father on the day of his death it was 3 days later
---francis on 9/24/12

You are right. Jesus physical body had not ascended to the Father yet and that is why He did not want them to touch Him.

The following verses describe what happened to the Spirit of Jesus when His body was in the tomb:

Eph 4:7-10 "But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.' What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe."
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12


"And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR the devil and his angels."
Matthew 25:32-34, 41

If you're His sheep, you go to be with Christ but if you're the goat, it's into everlasting fire.
---christan on 9/25/12


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francis, you are kidding right? You want me to read material from SDA's to know about regeneration, born of the Spirit because somehow they can explain that when you die, your spirit dies also or as you say the spirit and the body just go to sleep? Then even mention E.G. White. That is your problem, you read too much of their propaganda, that is why you do not know what it is to be spiritually baptize into one body in Christ. The Spirit has to reveal it to you through God's Word. God is Spirit (John 4:24), and therefore can only be known spiritually. Fallen man is not spiritual, he is carnal.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/12


Mark E, please forgive me for jumping in, but francis brings out the best in me.
Francis, let's look at the scriptures. What were Christ's final words upon the cross? "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit."
Christ did go to be with the Father the same day he was crucified. It was his body that remained, not his spirit.

Mark E, Lord bless you. I appreciate you defending the truth.
---trey on 9/24/12


Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/12
Revelation 21:2 the holy city, new Jerusalem...Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it,.. the tree of life.
The tree of life is located in the new jerusalem, which is located in Paradise.
Revelation 2:7 the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

That would be in heaven itself

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father:..I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and [to] my God, and your God

Jesus himself had not gone to be with his father on the day of his death it was 3 days later
---francis on 9/24/12


No one has ever produced ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that said the soul goes to be with God at death.
---francis on 9/22/12

You again and again do not accept the following Scripture to be the word of God and argue about its simple meaning.

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'"

Also, why would Paul write these next verses if He would not see Jesus until the judgement?

Phil 1:23-24 "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/12


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Mark V, I appreciate the explanation and your insight. It can be very frustrating when dealing with people who ignore and explain away scriptures that are black and white in order to hold on to their heretical beliefs.
---trey on 9/24/12


That is why francis and Jerry and most SDA's and others disagree with you. To them their is no such thing as been born of the Spirit and been baptized into one body in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12

Let me point you to the absolutely best literature on the subjectof the baptism of the holy spirit by SDA authors:

Crews, Joe: Man's Flicker or God's Flame

Crews, Joe: Life in the Spirit ( MY FAVOURITE)

The Surrender of Self By Joe Crews

40 Days Prayers and Devotions by Denise Smith

Ellen White on the baptism of the Holy Spirit
---francis on 9/24/12


Trey, it is impossible for anyone to believe they are united with Christ in Spirit if he is not born of the Spirit. There is no way they can believe their spirit is with Christ. They have no clue that the salvation we now have as been born of the Spirit is the ability to communicate with God spiritually. Our final consumation will not occure until we are resurrected, when our bodies will be change and unite with the spirit. That is why francis and Jerry and most SDA's and others disagree with you. To them their is no such thing as been born of the Spirit and been baptized into one body in Christ. They can have all the knowledge to read the Bible but no spiritual rebirth.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12


---francis on 9/22/12

You are well apprised on what the Bible says death is.

Those who are accepters of persons, and do not seek for themselves what God has spoken, will always find fault with the well-studied.

Approval and qualification are jewels from God.

Keep it coming.
---Phil on 9/23/12


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---trey on 9/22/12
NOT ONE SCRIPTURE says souls go to heaven at death.

Souls under the alter?
Genesis 4:10 the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Do you think that the blood of Abel was literally speaking to God?

I have pointed out from scripture that because the dead know nothing, that because the dead have no memory, no love no hate, and no praise for God, that the story of the rich man and Lazarus as well as the reference to souls under the altar speaking are parables and figures of speech not literal


Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. But we ( THE LIVING) will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore.
---francis on 9/22/12


francis, I have given you a multitude of scriptures but you do not have ears to hear. I am finished discussing this point with you. It is obviously a waste of my time.

I pray the Lord gives you more understanding.
---trey on 9/22/12


The belief that the body sleeps in the grave and that the spirit and soul either go to be with God or go to hell is never contracticted in the scriptures.
---trey on 9/22/12

No one has ever produced ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that said the soul goes to be with God at death.

What I pointed out using the scriptures, is that the bible says that the dead know nothing and have no memory. Which would show that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal, their conversation, love, memory, and knowledge is contrary to scripture, It is a parable
---francis on 9/22/12


francis, The scriptures never contradict one another. All scripture is given by inspiration of God...2 Tim 3:16.
If your understanding shows the scriptures to be contradictory then you should take a look at what you believe.
The belief that the body sleeps in the grave and that the spirit and soul either go to be with God or go to hell is never contracticted in the scriptures. Why keep explaining away scripture when you could simply believe what they teach?

Lord bless you francis. I know you have a zeal because you are so faithful to write.
---trey on 9/22/12


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Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished,

If this means that the unsaved alone lose their memory, then we have an issue with the rich man and lazarous. The rich man shows both memory of his brothers and love for his brothers contrary to the text

Everyone knows that there will die some day: both the spiritual dead, and spirtual alive. Death is no stranger to the saved and unsaved. It it those who are literally dead who know nothing.

The rich man and lazarous have knowledge, momery, and love contrary to the scripture

---francis on 9/21/12


Francis - 9/20/12 - The Teaching is contray to the Word of God ?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - Dead Know not anything - Memory of them is forgotten ----- ( This would have to do with Unsave man )

Psalm 112:6 Sure he shall not be moved forever, the righteous shall be in everlasting rememberance

John 10:28 - And I will give them eternal life and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hands

Ecclesiates 9:5 ------- For the LIVING know that they will Die - ( I believe is referring to the saved - They Know there Bodies are going to die - but there spirit Doesn't.)
---RichardC on 9/21/12


francis, Eccl 9:5 Explaination: We know we will die.
The dead know not anything - meaning of the things happening now here on earth.

The physically dead but spiritually alive with Christ know a lot you and I do not! They know what it is like to live in heaven with the family of God, and to look on the face of Christ and to sing his praises.

Eccl 9:6 Solomon speaking of those that are dead says their love, their hatred, their envy is now perished and NOTE THAT HE STATES: neither have they any more a portion FOR EVER under the sun.
EXAMPLE:
I love my Dad that has passed on, and I know he loved me but I do not feel his love now like I did while he was living here on earth.
---trey on 9/20/12


Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

The teaching contrary to the word of God which stated that the dead have thoughts, and memory, or that the body dies but the " soul" lives on is the bases for necromancy
---francis on 9/20/12


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Follower of Christ - I used Matthew 22,32 - because it use in a lot of Commentarys on this subject, along with - 2 Corinthians 5:8 That there the soul and Body - The Bodies Dies - The Soul goes to be with the lord. A new body is given to the believer on the last day.
The reason this topic interest me, I have had Two people in my life - One being mother that just die, That had out of Body experiences , Mother Just be for she die, And a Aunt that die on the operating table and came back,
---RichardC on 9/20/12


---trey on 9/19/12
lets take the phrase " under the sun" and apply it to the dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This would mean that the rich man would have no love for his brothers, the souls under the alter would not be able to appeal to God for those on earth because the dead have neither love nor hatred, and have nothing to do with what goe son under the sun, they know nothing
---francis on 9/20/12


Richard C what does your post refer to? God is the God of the living, however the dead have not been resurrected yet. All of the righteous dead (those in Christ at their death) will be resurrected together when The Lord returns. Do you believe the Lord is here today, and the tribulation has come and gone and Satan is no longer present in this evil war filled, hate filled, immorral world???? You believe the Prince of Peace (aka the high priest Lord Jesus) is ruling from Jerusalem today as Lord of Lords and the dead are not dead instead they are with him in some secret location in Jerusalem. The dead are dead so says scripture and will be resurrected all at once when the Lord returns 1 Corinthians 15. The Lord Jesus has not returned yet.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/20/12


Follower Of Christ 9/19/12 - Holy Scripture does not teach dead are alive somewhere else ?

Matthew 22:32 - I sm the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, And the God of Jacob ? God is not the God of the Dead, But the Living .
---RichardC on 9/20/12


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*************

MarkV: "Jerry, The answers you and francis give, give evidence none of you are born of the Spirit."

How condescending of you! I could say that the answers you give prove that you are possessed of the devil, but that would show that I was not the Christian I claim to be. God ONLY is my judge - not YOU! By your continued usurpation of God's prerogative of judging people's motives, you commit blasphemy!

Try to act like an adult, will you?

***********
---jerry6593 on 9/20/12


francis, if you will please notice that in the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon uses the phrase "under the sun", meaning from man's perspective while here on this earth. He is not looking at life from a heavenly perspective as do traditional christians, but from the natural man's viewpoint.

Francis, I know I am not going to convince you. You have your beliefs and I have mine. If you would like to continue on with this debate, I am good to go, but I realize that only God can open your eyes.
---trey on 9/19/12


Ecclesiastes 9:2-6 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked,, This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Both righteous and wicked receive the same sentence of death. All who ever lived are dead because it is appointed once for all men to die. Holy scripture does not teach the dead are really alive somewhere else. Holy scripture does teach the dead will be resurrected to eternal life when the Lord Jesus returns to earth to rule Gods government on earth as King of Kings.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/19/12


---trey on 9/19/12
Christ is not comong back with the saints in 1 thess 4, he is coming back to GET the saints. Christ is descending from above, the saints are ascending to meet him. NO text says that he is ocming back to reunite thier soul and spirit with thier bodies.

As to soul sleep. Who teaches " soul sleep?"
what the bible teaches is that death is as a sleep.

Once we die thier is no more soul,


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
---francis on 9/19/12


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Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

So those who are alive are much better than those who are dead. That is why we see resurrections of the saints in the NT. If they did in fact went to be with God, or went to paradise they would have been in a much better place.

If those who were dead did in fact go to heaven, the dead lion would be better than a living dog
---francis on 9/19/12


Francis, from you post it appears that you believe that Christ has not ascended to heaven. Did you mean it that way, or are you saying something else? Please clarify.

It is my belief that the Lord spoken of here in 1Thes 4 is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the bridegroom and is coming back with the saints to reunite their spirts and souls with their glorified bodies which have been asleep in the grave.

Soul sleeping was never taught by the early Christians. I cannot find where this was ever believed much less taught as a doctrine before the mid 1500s. Shouldn't it make us a little leary when something new is taught 1500 to 2000 years after Christ's death???
---trey on 9/19/12


Psalm 16:3 - But the saint that are in the earth ,and excellent, in whom is all my delight. ( The way I got it are the saints are on the earth . ? )

Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment. { Judgment happens Immediate, at the time of death ? )

Philippians 1:21 - For me to live is Christ , and is to gain
1:22 - But if am in the Flesh, this is the fruit of my labor, yet what I shall choose I wot not
1:23 - For I am in strait betwixt two having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better.
---RichardC on 9/19/12


1 Thes 4:14 Christ returns from Heaven with the Saints.
--trey on 9/18/12
Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This does not say that jesus comes from heaven with the saints. It says God will bring Jesus and the saints to heaven
---francis on 9/19/12


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At death the righteous in Christ Jesus go to heaven and the wicked to hell.
---trey on 9/18/12
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

No one gets their reward at the time of death, and no one faced fire judgment at the time of death
---francis on 9/18/12


Gen 5:24 Where did God take Enoch? Heaven
Gen 25:8 Abraham gave up the ghost (his spirit departs to heaven) he died, and he was gathered (went) to his people.
Gen 35:18 Rachel soul departed and went to heaven.
2nd Sam 12:19-23 David says he'll go to be with his dead son.
Luke 16:19-31 the rich man goes to hell and is in a flame.
2nd Cor 5:8 Paul says he is willing to be ABSENT from the body and present with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:14 Christ returns from Heaven with the Saints.
Eph 3:14-15 Paul speaks of our family on earth and in heaven.
Rev 6:9 John sees those martered for Christ in heaven.
Rev 20:13 Death AND hell give up the Dead.

At death the righteous in Christ Jesus go to heaven and the wicked to hell.
---trey on 9/18/12


They cease to exist until Jesus recreates them fresh and new at the resurrection (no leftover body parts or spook vapors).
---jerry6593 on 9/15/12

This is the part of your theory that cannot be proven with Scripture.

Please show us ALL using Scripture where the soul/spirit ceases to exist and where Jesus/God recreates it at the resurrection.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/12


Jerry, The answers you and francis give, give evidence none of you are born of the Spirit. You say,
"If we were already with Jesus, He would not need to come back for us so that we could be where He is. Does He need rotten corpses to make us whole?"
We are with Him in the Spirit when we are born of the Spirit. We were spiritually baptisted into One Body in Christ. That never changes again. He comes to receive our dead bodies and glorified them to prepare them for all eternity. Whether for heaven or hell. But you do not believe we are spiritually baptist into His Body, how can you understand any Truth at all? As far as you are concern, dead people wait for something, dead people don't think or wait for anything.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/12


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1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God )bring with him.

What this text says is that those who believe will be brought into the father house with Jesus

In the second coming Jesus does NOT initially touch earth, he comes down and we which are in christ are caught up to meet him in the air. Then we are taken with him ( the father brings us with Him) to His house.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,..and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
---francis on 9/18/12


trey: "Where are these when Christ comes back...with him."

WOW! I can't understand how you could miss this so badly. Jesus will "bring with Him" the righteous back to heaven. When a text like this can be interpreted either way, you need a confirming text to clear it up. Here it is:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

If we were already with Jesus, He would not need to come back for us so that we could be where He is. Does He need rotten corpses to make us whole?


---jerry6593 on 9/18/12


Bro. Trey, again thank you for your explanation. I wonder what born of the Spirit believers happens to their spirit? They have been united with the Lord, they have been spiritually baptist into one body.

"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trepasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace we were saved) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.." (Eph. 4-6).
If they do not understand the state of a born of the Spirit person, who are this people? They talk of dying and been in the grave, and nothing about their spirit which is united with Christ. Again, who are this people?
---Mark_V. on 9/18/12


WOW, in reading all the blogs, it is amazing to me how many of you believe in soul sleep and such!

Let's try this again, I'm sure to no avail, but I'll give you scripture.

1Thes4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.
Where are these when Christ comes back...with him. Their spirits and souls are with Christ in heaven. Christ brings them back at his return and they are united with their bodies.

Lord bless you all.
---trey on 9/17/12


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Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus Lord, remember me when thou cometh into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And he said unto him , verily I say unto thee TO DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise.
---RichardC on 9/16/12

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am NOT YET ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
---francis on 9/17/12


I know that Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and that the dead in Christ shall rise first and those that are living shall be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the clouds. So how could the living be caught up with the dead if the dead where not first under the ground?

Then read Revelation 20 how after a thousand year reign of Christ the rest of the dead shall be resurrected and judged from the Book of Life according to what they did on earth.

Blessed and holy is the christians that take part in the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 9/16/12


Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus Lord, remember me when thou cometh into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And he said unto him , verily I say unto thee TO DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise.
---RichardC on 9/16/12


Neither question is right. When the Messiah comes it says that the dead in faith are raised. They do not come down from heaven to be laid in the earth and then be raised. Therefore no man but the Messiah has gone to heaven when they die. Those who have died in faith are raised, then those 144000 who are alive and faithful to the truth will be changed in the twinkling of the eye to meet the Messiah and the dead in faith, then all those, led by the Messiah come down to the Mt of Olives and then march triumphfully into Jerusalem
---toby on 9/16/12


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"Which is true?" Neither.
The second is closest. When Jesus returns, He will not turn around and go back, that would require a third coming, biblically there are only two physical comings, the first was as a lamb, and the second will be as a lion, metaphorically speaking of course:o) He will reign here, out of Zion. Psa. 110:2>Jer 31:6>Jer 50:5>Zec 8:22
---joseph on 9/16/12


Death is a return.

The body returns to dust
Gn 3:19 till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

And the spirit, or breath as the KJV renders it, returns to God.
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There is no soul life without God's spirit within. It is the seat of the senses, it has no existence apart from the coming together of clay and spirit.

Gn 2:7 God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life, and man became a living soul.
---Phil on 9/15/12


The dead go to the grave then turn to dust and when the Lord Jesus returns to earth he will resurrect those in him to life eternal. The Lord Jesus returns to rule earth from Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords resurrecting saints to rule Gods Kingdom on earth with him. unrighteous sinners do not live again until 1000 year millennium has passed. Dead are not classified as righteous dead or unrighteous dead because all who have ever lived and died are dead. Apostles explained David was dead and still in his sepulcher. The only man to ever live who was clearly very dear to God is still in his grave and no verse describes any human going to heaven. The faith and promise of the resurrection of all 1 Corinthians 15
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/15/12


In Hebrews we have > "We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat." (Hebrews 13:10)

And if this is only an expression, then "sleep" can also be only an expression.
---willie_c: on 9/15/12

yes sleep is an expression for death, that does not tell me which altar is in hean though
---francis on 9/15/12


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If anyone believes that souls go under an antar in heaven, and can see and hear what goes on on earth, and can appeal to God for us, then we should all be Catholics and appeal to mary who is no doubt under the altar in heaven and can see and hear us and can "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

No one who believes that souls go to heaven and can hear us should ever critize any catholic for exercising faith that those under the alter can eharus and speak to God on our behalf
---francis on 9/15/12


1st Cliff: I agree with you. The dead are REALLY DEAD! The "souls" do not leave the body to to take a nap somewhere. They cease to exist until Jesus recreates them fresh and new at the resurrection (no leftover body parts or spook vapors). The only thing that remains of US in death is God's perfect memory of us, so that in the resurrection, we can be created with our minds intact.


---jerry6593 on 9/15/12


Francis, you wrote, "what alter is in heaven, and why would these souls be under an altar?"

In Hebrews we have > "We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat." (Hebrews 13:10)

And if this is only an expression, then "sleep" can also be only an expression.
---willie_c: on 9/15/12


And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee,
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?


But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
(That contains the altar)
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/14/12


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---trey on 9/14/12
Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) .

The very text tells you waht the phrase " soul was in departigng mens" it means she was going to die. It does not mean her soul left her body and went elsewhere

Revelation 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls

what alter is in heaven, and why would these souls be under an altar?

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

sis the blood really speak?
---francis on 9/14/12


sorry...looking for the evolution blog.
---aka on 9/14/12


Francis, both of the verses you referenced are speaking from man's point of view here on earth. The body sleeps in the tomb, but the spirit and soul either go to be with God or to Hell.

Proof text #1:
Gen35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
HER SOUL DID NOT SLEEP IN THE GRAVE. IT WENT TO GOD.

Proof text #2:
Rev6:9 ... I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, ...:
Rev6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
THESE WERE NOT SLEEPING IN THE GRAVE!
---trey on 9/14/12


Paul speaks of "those who sleep in Jesus," in 1 Thessalonians 4:14, and says God will bring these with Jesus. Also, he says "the dead in Christ will rise first," later in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. But, though it does say they "sleep" and "will rise", also we have how the martyrs of the vision of Revelation are under the altar and they speak and then are told "that they should rest a little longer" (Revelation 6:9-11). So, though they "sleep" they can be conscious whenever God sees fit. They are not prisoners of what any self-favoritistic group may dictate. "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
---willie_c: on 9/14/12


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Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.


Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
---francis on 9/14/12


Jerry6593, When a Christian dies, his physical body ceases to function and begins the natural process of decay. And, then, instead of leaving the soul to "sleep" in a rotting corpse (what a way for the souls of GOD's own beloved, precious children to spend, possibly YEARS, lying about in a putrid, maggot-infested corpse), instead, GOD takes that beloved soul straight up to HIS Presence in the "Third Heaven" and the soul awaits for the reunion of their soul with a re-newed spiritual body to live in GOD's Kingdom some Day to come. And, that new spiritual body will have all of the same attributes that the physical body had, only it will be perfected and will not ever get sick or die, etc.
---Gordon on 9/14/12


Jerry, Neither! The dead remain dead (unconscious) 'till resurrected to continue living on earth and fulfil the mandate given to Adam.(blessed are the meek since they will inherit the earth)
The chosen ones go to heaven to rule with Christ for a thousand years as kings and priests!Rev.20.6.
The wicked dead remain dead forever since they forfeited their chance to live forever
life is a "gift" from God!!Jn.3.16.
Wages of sin is not torture!
BTW Neither soul nor spirit are immortal!
---1st_cliff on 9/14/12


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