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Explain John 4:24

Explain John 4:24?

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 ---aka on 9/16/12
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"No power to change your mind." Mark_V (1)

But God's word does and in your retreat from the premise that you began with it is clear that you are unable to "accurately handl[e] the word of truth" in defense of it. (2 Tim 2:15)

"They received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so."

"All Scripture is...profitable for teaching, reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness". 2 Tim 3:16

Christ and the apostles continually quoted scripture in defense of the faith. Disciples were told by Jesus to 'Go...and...teach', not to just expect knowledge of a mysterious triune God to be miraculously understood.
---scott on 10/6/12


"Such a God cannot be found out by searching or hearing someone tell you." Mark_V

Really?

"That they may seek God, if indeed they might feel after him and find him, although he is not far from each one of us". Acts 17:27, DBY

"Everyone who asks receives...seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matt 7:8

"Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found...". Is 55:6, ASV

"How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"" Rom 10:14, 15, NIV
---scott on 10/6/12


Scott, of course you are going to disgree, I do not expect you to jump up and down with joy because you suddenly found out something new. You are a heretic and have heretical views, and nothing I say is going to change that view. I have no power to change your mind. Such a God cannot be found out by searching or hearing someone tell you, He can only be known only as He is revealed to the heart by "the Holy Spirit" Here I say again,
"The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known" So my answers to you, will always be wrong to you, because really there is no debate.
---Mark_V. on 10/6/12


"Confusing what is literal with what is figurative" Mark_V

No. You have presented two lines of argumentation in an attempt to establish that the HS is a person.

1. The use of the pronoun "he".

2. The fact that the HS is said to speak, teach, etc.

But as shown below, neither of those arguments really hold water under closer examination. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says (essentially) that your 2nd line of argumentation is flawed. And a quick glance at a Greek/Hebrew Lexicon dismisses the other.

Then with those two reasons being easily challenged you come up with the amusing and circular 'only the HS can reveal to you that the HS is a person' solution.

Really? So is that it?
---scott on 10/5/12


Scott, again, you reject the Truth by trying to confuse what is literal, with what is figurative, and with what is symbolic. Any good interpretor knows the meanings between all of them and uses them as required. In order for you to dismiss the Truth written in the Word, you resort to the same tactics the RCC used to put their own meanings to the word of God to form their own traditions. But what you forget is that one of ministries of the Holy Spirit is the work of illumination, of helping believers understand the full meaning of the words of Scripture. And the concept of illumination need not extend beyond the Holy Spirit's work of explicating the full meaning of the text. But here is your problem, you do not be the Holy Spirit is a person.
---Mark_V. on 10/5/12




"Wallace/study" Mark_V

The Bible that you "study" wasn't written in the language of your chosen translation. To ignore the actual Greek as it relates to the English pronoun "he" in your translation is to stick your head in the same sand that your failed premise has been built upon.

"HS Speaking"-

Often in God's word impersonal things "speak":

Bones say, "O LORD, who is like thee...?" Psalm 35:10

Lightning says "Here we are." Job 38:35

A city says, "Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me, I shall..." Ez 26:2

Wisdom "calls out...cries aloud..." Prov 8:1, 3-4 (Also 9:5)
---scott on 10/4/12


Scott, I do not study Daniel Wallace. I study the Bible. Listen Scott, if the Holy Spirit is not a Person, then some invisible force is talking (Acts 13:2), convicts or convinces, (John 16:7,8), intercedes (Rom. 8:26), has intellect (1Cor. 2:10,11) emotions ((Eph. 4:30), a will (1 Cor. 12:11) teaches (John 14:26), guides (Rom. 8:14), can be grieved ( Eph. 4:30), and so much more. So I know you can turn all those passages around and it will make you happy, and you will find every excuse to proclaim the Holy Spirit is not a person, but it will change nothing. No matter how many other books you read from anyone. For nothing will convince you, but the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 10/4/12


"What anyone shows you"- Mark_V

Well, in this case, I didn't respond to what "anyone showed me" but what you showed me...the familiar "argument" that the HS is a person because of the pronoun "he" that is often attached to it in English translations.

But, again, you play apologetic doorbell ditch, making statements that you simply can not defend with the use of God's word so you abandon the "argument" that you yourself presented.

"Commentators"- Mark_V

Additionally, if the renowned (trinitarian) biblical scholar Daniel Wallace is incorrect, perhaps your knowledge of Koine Greek exceeds his and you can explain why. Waiting patiently...
---scott on 10/3/12


Scott, no matter what anyone shows you, you will come out with some kind of excuse. Someone told you He was not a He, and of course they also do not believe He is a He, just like you. They even write books claiming the Holy Spirit is not a He, for the same reason you say He is not a He. Jehovah Witnesses have the same commentators. Mormons have their own. Every heretical movement have their reasons why Jesus is not God, Why the Holy Spirit is not God. I don't expect you to believe the Truth, but such a God cannot be found out by searching. "He" can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word."
---Mark_V. on 10/3/12


"John 16:13, 14"- Mark_V (2)

Continuing-

"But this is erroneous," Wallace says. Further:

"In all these Johannine passages, pneuma is appositional to a masculine noun ['paraclete']. The gender of ekeinos ['that one,' masculine] thus has nothing to do with the natural gender of pneuma..."

"The antecedent of ekeinos, in each case [he includes John 14:26], is [paraclete], not pneuma..."

"This hardly assists the grammatical argument for the Spirit's personality..."

"...indeed, it is difficult to find any text in which pneuma is grammatically referred to with the masculine gender."

Pages 331-332.
---scott on 10/1/12




scott * Yes, we're definitely done here. Because of what appears to be a lack of honesty on your part, let alone an obvious inability to defend the argument that you began with,

Sounds like you found a easy way out:)--


scott* the very least the discussion has revealed the foundational "sand" upon which your unscriptural doctrine is built. (Matt 7:26)

After you finish patting youself in the back, you might want to take a look to see if it is you whose doctrine is bulit on sand, Just saying!

I will leave you with this:

"
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. ( 2 Cor 13:14)
---Ruben on 10/1/12


New Catholic Encyclopedia (Vol. 13, p. 575):

"The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal Gods spirit as something, not someone, this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.
---scott on 9/30/12

Scott left out this, I wonder why?:)

Although the NT concepts of the spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT, in the NT there is a gradual revelation that the Spirit of God's a person . There more to this article about the HS is a person, but you knew that, didn't you?

Scott you said "Yes, we're definitely done here. Because of what appears to be a lack of honesty on your part" - Really!
---Ruben on 10/1/12


"John 16:13, 14"- Mark_V (1)

Daniel B. Wallace- 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics':

"...The use of ekeinos [rendered "he" in most translations] here is frequently regarded by students of the NT to be an affirmation of the personality of the Spirit. Such an approach is based on the assumption that the antecedent of ekeinos is pneuma ['Spirit']..

...'the masculine pronoun ekeinos is used [by those "students"] in John 14:26 and 16:13-14 to refer to the neuter noun pneuma to emphasize the personality of the Holy Spirit."

Continued
---scott on 10/1/12


scott* "You stated "Not one verse shows us that the HS is a thing [or] it....Were you right or wrong?" scott

I was right:) Ruben

"I will take of the Spirit...and will put it upon them". Numbers 11:17 (scott 9/27/12)

Scott,

Read my comment slowly to see what I am really saying. Even the scripture you gave does not say the HS is a it:

"And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them"

Are you saying Jehova is not a person?
---Ruben on 10/1/12


Scott, isn't the Holy Spirit revealing the Truth to you? Why are you insisting on going against the One Person who reveals the Truth to you? Hear the Word of the Lord,

""However, when "He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, "He" will guide you into all truth, for "He" will not speak on "His own" authority, but whatever "He" hears "He" will speak, and "He" will tell you things to come, "He" will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13,14).

Do you not see that the Spirit is "He"?
Eight times in one passage we are told He is a Person.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12


The HS-

New Catholic Encyclopedia
(Vol. 13, p. 575):

"The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal Gods spirit as something, not someone, this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God. When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to Gods spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8.29, 16.7, Rom 8.9), one is not justified in concluding immediately that...Gods spirit is regarded as a Person, the same expressions are used also in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (Rom 8.6, 7.17). Thus, the context of the phrase blasphemy against the spirit (Mt 12.31, cf. Mt 12.28, Lk 11.20), shows that reference is being made to the power of God."
---scott on 9/30/12


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If a "person", why no Holy Spirit mentioned?

Revelation 22:3-

"The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."

If a "person", were is the Holy Spirit's throne in this verse?
---scott on 9/29/12

Scott,

Really, does he really need to be there?

1) Might be because he was busy having a conversation with John:

"Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches" Rev 3:22

2) He is mention at the end of Revelation:

" The Spirit and the bride say, Come" Rev 22:17

Nothing here about God saying to come!
---Ruben on 9/30/12


Scott, you say,
"General reflections on the HS as a "person"-" then give" Revelation 21:22, 23-). Then you say,

"If a "person", why no Holy Spirit mentioned?".

Just because the Holy Spirit is not mentioned it doesn't mean He was asleep. Who do you think reveals this truth to you? The Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit you have no Truth.
"However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come, He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13,14). How can you believe anything without the Spirit?
---Mark_V. on 9/30/12


"You stated "Not one verse shows us that the HS is a thing [or] it....Were you right or wrong?" scott

I was right:) Ruben

"I will take of the Spirit...and will put it upon them". Numbers 11:17 (scott 9/27/12)

Yes, we're definitely done here. Because of what appears to be a lack of honesty on your part, let alone an obvious inability to defend the argument that you began with, what really is the point?

At the very least the discussion has revealed the foundational "sand" upon which your unscriptural doctrine is built. (Matt 7:26)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
---scott on 9/29/12


General reflections on the HS as a "person"-

Revelation 21:22, 23-

"And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb..."

If a "person", why no Holy Spirit mentioned?

Revelation 22:3-

"The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."

If a "person", were is the Holy Spirit's throne in this verse?
---scott on 9/29/12


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Scott, your own words condemn you.
Jesus and the Father are one God. Jesus called the Holy Spirit "another helper" (John 14:16) The word "another" means, "of the same kind". The Holy Spirit is a Person. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8).
Like the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit gives life,
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6) The Spirit intercedes for us,
"...for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit "Himself" intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words" (Rom. 8:26).
---Mark_V. on 9/29/12


"Humans are call it..." (Jhn 6:39)"

You confidently stated "Not one verse shows us that the HS is a thing [or] it." Ruben

Were you right or wrong?
---scott on 9/28/12

I was right:)
---Ruben on 9/28/12


"Humans are call it..." (Jhn 6:39)"

You confidently stated "Not one verse shows us that the HS is a thing [or] it." Ruben

Were you right or wrong?
---scott on 9/28/12


scott* Numbers 11:17- "I will take of the Spirit...and will put it upon them" - ASV-uses "itself" and "it" for the holy spirit at Romans 8:16, 26, 27.

Scott,

Humans are call it "but should raise it up again at the last day." (Jhn 6:39)

And even Romans 8:26 which you mention says Holy Spirit helps us pray, and intercedes on our behalf: the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses!
One last comment about the verse, if God was trying to show us that the Holy Spirit was not a person in these verses, why would He attach "personality qualities" to the "it"?



Not one verse which says the HS is a thing?
---Ruben on 9/28/12


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The Greek word for 'spirit' is neuter,

---scott on 9/27/12

Scott,

Infants and children are neuter in Greek the exact way that the HS is . (LK 1:41-2:16)(MK 5:39)

Even in Genesis 1:2 "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters". Is in a
feminine form!

And has you know (maybe) the masculine pronoun "HE" is applied to the HS alot in the NT even though it is neuter.

Is God really trying to confuse us? Or taking extra steps to show us that the HS is a person?

The word 'Spirit' when it refers to the Father (JHN 4:24) and baby Jesus (Mt 2:8) is neuter gender!!
---Ruben on 9/28/12


"Not one verse that shows us that the HS is a thing [or] it." Ruben

Numbers 11:17- "I will take of the Spirit...and will put it upon them" - ASV

Also see An American Translation by Smith and Goodspeed which uses "itself" and "it" for the holy spirit at Romans 8:16, 26, 27.

The (trinitarian) NAB (Catholic), 1970 ed. plainly states:

"The Greek word for 'spirit' is neuter, and while we [trinitarians] use personal pronouns in English ('he,' 'his,' 'him'), most Greek manuscripts employ 'it.'" New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., (footnote for John 14:17).

The revised NAB of 1991 has actually changed "he/him" back to the literal "it"!
---scott on 9/27/12


scott* God's name...no where in the bible Ruben

Yes, a fascinating subject, one that I'm happy to discuss...(big surprise) on another thread. But in the context of our discussion it's simply another red herring to avoid the obvious dilemma that your comments have created.

First of all, it was you who mention if the HS had a name.

And if you do open a thread on 'did Jesus or the Apostles emphasize the name Jehova', I will jump all over it-(Surprise)
---Ruben on 9/27/12


We're probably done here if you continue to abandon your own argument without making any sort of defense for it or by following it to some logical conclusion.
---scott on 9/26/12

Here is your logical conclusion:

Because the bible has endless examples of personication which you have pointed out, but from human knowledge we should know that they are not persons.

However when it comes to the HS no one can say that HS is a thing and not a person. There is not one verse that shows us that the HS is a thing for that matter it.

So I will move on per your wish, maybe since we have 20-25 entry left we could start the Jehova name in the NT. Thanks for taking you time and looking forward to some more:)
---Ruben on 9/27/12


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God's name...no where in the bible Ruben

Yes, a fascinating subject, one that I'm happy to discuss...(big surprise) on another thread. But in the context of our discussion it's simply another red herring to avoid the obvious dilemma that your comments have created.

And please don't make me remind you of your original argument or premise in this discussion again.

It's clear to anyone with even a passing interest in this discussion (zzzzzzzz) that your "argument" does not hold water when compared to the reliable truth of God's word.

We're probably done here if you continue to abandon your own argument without making any sort of defense for it or by following it to some logical conclusion.
---scott on 9/26/12


"Jehovah...the God of Abraham...Isaac and...Jacob...this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Ex 15:3 ASV,

Does the HS have a name?
---scott on 9/26/12

Scott,

Now you want to play the name game!

Speaking of the name Jehova it is no where found in scripture, even the WTS admits to it:

"While inclining to view the pronunciation "Yahweh" as the more correct way, we have retained the form "Jehovah" because of people's familiarity with it Since the 14th century. New World Translation, Jehovah's Witnesses, foreword p 25)

And better it, Jesus nor the NT writers never use the name 'Jehova' but yet the NWT has it 237 times, strange!
---Ruben on 9/26/12


"Associated with impersonal things, does it make them not persons?" Ruben

Ruben, the clear difference is that we are not left to form an opinion as to whether God or Jesus are persons because one is described as a "rock" (2 Sam 22:3) and the other, a door or gate (John 10:7), etc.

The scriptures paint a beautiful, unquestionable, fully-developed picture of both God and Jesus Christ as real individuals with personalities and perhaps most significantly...names.

"Jehovah...the God of Abraham...Isaac and...Jacob...this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Ex 15:3 ASV,

"...call his name JESUS." Luke 1:31

Does the HS have a name?
---scott on 9/26/12


Let's be honest, who has any clue to what God looks like? We only know Jesus has declared He's Spirit and to worship Him, it must be done in Spirit and in Truth.

Has anyone seen God? Before you answer, He told Moses, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Exodus 33:20. God's attribute is Holiness and man is sinful, period. A great gulf of contradiction exist and His tolerance for sin is ZERO.

Question is, how does the sinful man who's born in "sin and trespasses" even begin to worship a Holy God in his sinful state? It's IMPOSSIBLE! The sinner CANNOT stand before God and live.

Some would disagree violently and claim they've the ability to choose to be Holy.
---christan on 9/26/12


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Not sure about scripture (it's possible) but other impersonal things certainly do:

Tyre says: "Aha, the gate of the people...has swung open to me, I shall...." Ezekiel 26:2

Wisdom says "To you, o men, I call..." Proverbs 8:1, 3-4

Lightening says "Here we are."

---scott on 9/25/12

God and Jesus are both associated with impersonal things, does it make them not persons?
---Ruben on 9/25/12


"Scriptures also call the HS "He" and "I"!!" Ruben

So we're moving away from your "argument" that the HS is a person because it is occasionally personified like many other (non-personal) things in God's word...and on to pronouns?

Just checking.


A Catholic Dictionary-

"Most of these places [the personification of the HS] furnish no cogent proof of personality....We must not forget that the NT personifies mere attributes such as love (1 Cor. xiii. 4), and sin (Rom. vii. 11), nay even abstract and lifeless things, such as the law (Rom iii.19), the water and the blood (1 John v.8)."
---scott on 9/25/12


"Conversation"-

Your "argument" from 9/21/12 (from Awake!) was "Can an unintelligent 'force' carry on a conversation with a person?"

Unless you can show scriptural evidence of a "conversation" between the HS any anyone else you've failed to prove your point.

"Where does scripture call itself I or He?" Ruben

Not sure about scripture (it's possible) but other impersonal things certainly do:

Tyre says: "Aha, the gate of the people...has swung open to me, I shall...." Ezekiel 26:2

Wisdom says "To you, o men, I call..." Proverbs 8:1, 3-4

Lightening says "Here we are."

Your other comments are red herrings.
---scott on 9/25/12


scott* How about The Catholic Encyclopedia?

"In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine power..

Where does it say HS is not a person?


scott * Where? Try Googling the definition of "conversation".

Jhn 14:26 He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

Last I recall Jesus said and taught a whole alot!!



Scott* "The holy spirit said..." Acts 13: 1- 3

"The scripture says..." Rom 9:17, 4:3

Difference between those two verses is " set Barnabas & Saul aprt for me for the work to which I have call them." ( Acts 13:2)- Where does scripture call itself I or He?
---Ruben on 9/25/12


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"The scripture says..." Rom 9:17, 4:3

---scott on 9/25/12

"God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24)"

"yet the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11)."


Where does it say 'Scripture also raise Jesus'?

"Our bodies are temples of God "(I Corinthians 3:16-17)

"yet they are temples of the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 6:19)"

Where does it say the 'scripture is the temple?
---Ruben on 9/25/12


"The spoke person for all of Christanity !" Ruben (sic)

How about The Catholic Encyclopedia?

"In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine power..." p. 269, 1976


"Still waiting for your example of a fully-developed conversation between the HS and anyone as we find with Satan..." scott

"I have done that!" Ruben

Where? Try Googling the definition of "conversation".



"The holy spirit said..." Acts 13: 1- 3

"The scripture says..." Rom 9:17, 4:3

Wisdom says "come eat my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed." Proverbs 9:5 "To you, o men, I call..." 8:1, 3-4
---scott on 9/25/12


Scripture speaks to us- "The scripture says to Pharaoh..." Rom 9:17, 4:3

Scripture can foresee- "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles..." Gal. 3:8

Yes, the word of God (scripture) is "living" ("alive" NIV, NCV, GNT) and "active", "quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart". Heb 4:12

Based on your conclusion that only a "real person" could do the things attributed to the HS then the Bible is also a person.

"It's ALIVE!!!" (Insert Gene Wilder/Young Frankenstein sound bite here).
---scott on 9/22/12

Scott,

Scriptures also call the HS "He" and "I"!!
---Ruben on 9/25/12


scott* "No up-to-date theologian believes that Satan is a person." Cited from the New York Times Magazine of February 4, 1973?

I had no idea that the NY times was the spoke person for all of Christanity !

scott* Still waiting for your example of a fully-developed conversation between the HS and anyone as we find with Satan and his conversations with Jesus and Jehovah.

I have done that!


"the holy spirit said: Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me
for the work to which I have called them. -Acts 13: 1- 3 New World Translation-

John 14.26: " will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
---Ruben on 9/25/12


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"HS teaches, reminds, comforts... Only a divine person can do [this]"- Ruben

Well...

Scripture speaks to us- "The scripture says to Pharaoh..." Rom 9:17, 4:3

Scripture can foresee- "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles..." Gal. 3:8

Yes, the word of God (scripture) is "living" ("alive" NIV, NCV, GNT) and "active", "quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart". Heb 4:12

Based on your conclusion that only a "real person" could do the things attributed to the HS then the Bible is also a person.

"It's ALIVE!!!" (Insert Gene Wilder/Young Frankenstein sound bite here).
---scott on 9/22/12


"Yes, it is "sent" by Jesus Scott

And how does it say it will help us?

John 14.26: " will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


The HS will teach you and remind them everything Jesus said to them. How can a active force able to do that? Only a divine person can do what Jesus said the HS will do!

John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you."

How could a 'force' comfort or replace a real person?

What you are saying is this:

' Don't worry a electricity or a force is coming!
---Ruben on 9/21/12


"The HS dwells in us!"- Ruben

Are we moving away from "speaking" and on to "dwelling"?

Just checking = )
---scott on 9/21/12


"You right"- Ruben

There you go. Now we're cooking with gas! See what a little digging will do for you?

And I agree whole-heartedly with the Awake! article and the biblically based conclusion that "Satan" is indeed a real individual in stark contrast to those like the Catholic "scholar" that the same article quotes:

"No up-to-date theologian believes that Satan is a person." Cited from the New York Times Magazine of February 4, 1973

But you already knew that because you have the article right?

Still waiting for your example of a fully-developed conversation between the HS and anyone as we find with Satan and his conversations with Jesus and Jehovah.
---scott on 9/21/12


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Isn't it ironic that...Satan is called a god by Paul and no where is the HS called God?

Still waiting for an answer.

"Michael"

Red Herring alert!
---scott on 9/21/12

Scott,

It is Paul who says we are the temple of God because the HS dwells in us! You can find this in many verse like ( Rom 8:9,8:11 and 1 Cor 3:16-6:19)

In 2 Cor 6:16 it reads "For we are the temple of the liviing God. As God has said:
I will live with them and walk among them,and I will be their God,and they will be my people.

Now if God says he will be in us, nad it is the HS in us
Doesn't it make him God? God is personal!!
---Ruben on 9/21/12


Not by any scriptural evidence that you've presented. I've demonstrated that the bible personifies all sorts of things that are not persons. You've not demonstrated that the HS is unique in that way.

Is the "land" is a person because it cries out? (Job 31:38).

Scott,

Take the "unholy spirits" like demons and the devil in scriptures verses in Mk 3:22, Mt 12:32, 1 Tim 4:1, also 1 Jn 3:24-4:6. If they (demons, devil) are persons, how can you say the Holy
Spirit is not?

" The Holy Spirit said : set Barnabas & Saul aprt for me for the work to which I have call them." ( Acts 13:2)

" The wicked spirit said to them: I know Jesus and Paul, but who are you"( Acts 19:15)
---Ruben on 9/21/12


"HS Question.-" Ruben (2)

"WT, 8 December 1973, 27" Ruben

Perhaps you are unaware that no such issue exists.

Scott

You right here it is:

"Is the Devil a personification or a person? ... Can an unintelligent 'force' carry on a conversation with a person? ... only an intelligent person could. . . . 'Every quality, every action, which can indicate personality, is attributed to him in language which cannot be explained away."' (Awake 12/8/1973, p. 27
---Ruben on 9/21/12


"As does the Bible on the Hs" Ruben

Not by any scriptural evidence that you've presented. I've demonstrated that the bible personifies all sorts of things that are not persons. You've not demonstrated that the HS is unique in that way.

Is the "land" is a person because it cries out? (Job 31:38).

"Helper- Can a active force really do that?" Ruben

Yes, it is "sent" by Jesus to help us in all of the ways that he and his God (Rev 3:12) find appropriate for our benefit.

Isn't it ironic that...Satan is called a god by Paul and no where is the HS called God?

Still waiting for an answer.

"Michael"

Red Herring alert!
---scott on 9/21/12


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scott * The Bible clearly identifies Satan as a real person.

As does the Bible on the Hs !

Hs is shown to raise, speak, instruct, talk, teachea, leads etc,,etc..

scott* Jesus even called him the "ruler of the world." (John 14:30) 2 Cor 4:4

Jesus himself calls the Hs a helper "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" Jhn 14:26 Can a active force really do that?

Scott* Isn't it ironic that your example (Satan) is called a god by Paul and no where is the HS called God? Hmmm.

No more ironic that claiming Jesus is Michael the arch angel, Paul nor any NT writers made that claim!
---Ruben on 9/21/12


Juan 4:19-24. In context, since God is a Spirit, he is not subject to the limits of space. The Samaritan wanted to know if God was to be worshipped particularly in Gerizim, or in Jerusalem. To worship God in spirit and truth means to do it as: God pleases that it be done, to sincerely do so, and to do it (with the help of) under the Holy Spirits influence. Acts 7:48, 17:25.
---Glenn on 9/20/12


"HS Question.-" Ruben

"it is not the most important thing to do here is to find out when the Bible is speaking(no pun intended)metaphorically and when it is not?" Ruben

Not sure what you're saying there.

Your "Question" from 9/18/12 was "How can the HS be God's active force...When even the NWT has the HS speaking"?

Comparing apples with apples, my response was to identify for you non-personal things (mountains, water, scriptures, land) that rejoice, utter, preach, cry aloud call out and speak, etc.

Your reply that Jesus is the "vine" and "door", etc. is a 'False analogy'. (apples/oranges).

I have answered your question.
---scott on 9/20/12


"HS Question.-" Ruben (2)

"WT, 8 December 1973, 27" Ruben

Perhaps you are unaware that no such issue exists.

But regarding your point: The account of Job 1 & 2 with Satan's lengthy and fully-developed "conversation" with God can hardly be compared to any reference to the HS speaking metaphorically. (Also Luke 4:1-13).

The Bible clearly identifies Satan as a real person.

Jesus even called him the "ruler of the world." (John 14:30) Paul called Satan "the god of this system of things." 2 Cor 4:4

"Ironic"- Ruben

Isn't it ironic that your example (Satan) is called a god by Paul and no where is the HS called God? Hmmm.
---scott on 9/20/12


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Keeping the verse in context, Christ is speaking to the woman at the well. She is truly a child of God, but a disobedient child of God and a woman of mixed heritage (Jew + Gentile = Samaritan). The Jews considered the Samaritans "dogs", but our God is no respector of persons.
Christ is explaining that our God is a spirit. In order to worship God properly we must be "in the spirit". In other words we worship our God by an exercise of faith. Our natural man doesn't worship God. It is our spiritual man, that new creature inside of us, that worships God.
True worship must be done in truth. In other words, non-christians cannot truly worship God. Any other worship is not true worship is vain or empty/meaningless.
---trey on 9/20/12


"A question about the HS.-" Ruben

For starters...

The Bible personifies many things in this way.
---scott on 9/18/12

Scott,

Thank you for your quick response, it is not the most important thing to do here is to find out when the Bible is speaking(no pun intended)metaphorically and when it is not? All of those examples you gave clearly is speaking metaphorically ex, Jesus is call the lamb of God, vine and a door and even for you the "Bread of Life" , however when the HS is mention quite often with the personal pronoun "HE" one can see what scripture is saying.
---Ruben on 9/19/12


"A question about the HS" Ruben (2)

Even scripture speaks to us: Romans 4:3 (cf. 9:17). It also can foresee and preach (Gal. 3:8, ASV).
---scott on 9/19/12

Scott,

The JWS teach about Satan ironically what Christians believe in the personhood of the Holy Spirit!

Can an unintelligent "force" carry on a conversation with a person? Also, the Bible calls Satan a manslayer, a liar, a father (in the spiritual sense), and a ruler . . . Only an intelligent person could fit all those descriptions . . . Every quality, every action, which can indicate personality is attributed to him in language which cannot be explained away!
(WT, 8 December 1973, 27
---Ruben on 9/19/12


"A question about the HS" Ruben (2)

A person's heart can be sad (or "grieved") at 1 Samuel 1:8 and Proverbs 15:13. The heart is glad at Judges 18:20 and Acts 2:26 (the tongue rejoices also).

The heavens are capable of rejoicing - Ps. 96:11. The mountains saw God and trembled ["were afraid"-ASV] and the deep [water] "uttered his voice and lifted up his hands" - Habakkuk 3:10, KJV. And Zion can be glad - Ps. 97:8 and can be comforted - Is. 51:3. "Zion spreads forth her hands, but there is no one to comfort her" - Lament. 1:17.

Even scripture speaks to us: Romans 4:3 (cf. 9:17). It also can foresee and preach (Gal. 3:8, ASV).
---scott on 9/19/12


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"A question about the HS.-" Ruben

For starters...

The Bible personifies many things in this way. At Psalm 35:10 bones say, "O LORD, who is like thee...?" RSV, NASB, NEB, Jerusalem Bible, and other modern translations which use quotation marks. (The KJV, for example, doesn't use quotation marks anywhere.)

Lightening can say, "Here we are." Job 38:35, RSV, NASB, JB, etc.

At Ezekiel 26:2, the city of Tyre speaks, "Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me, I shall...." RSV, etc.

At Proverbs 8:1, 3-4, "Does not wisdom call,....She cries aloud: 'To you, o men, I call,..." RSV, (See also wisdom "speaking" at Proverbs 9:5
---scott on 9/18/12


"The futile argument over the trinty has bled over here. i am out." aka

I certainly didn't post anything about the trinity. I just responded to your comments directed to me regarding John 4:24.

At least we've had a nice (but brief) discussion about the use of "Pneuma" in the NT. Don't get me started on "Ruach".
---scott on 9/18/12


Does anyone think that oxygen, air, pneuma doesn't provide life of some kind? What makes it essential to survival? Is not the life of the Life Giver inherent to it? Can we live without pneuma?

There are seven spirits of God Re 4:5

Holy spirit is one of them.

They are a part of His essence proceeding from His throne.

Re 11:11...spirit of life out of God entered into them.

God is light. Light has a definite spectrum.

Not so noticeable is spirit.
---Phil on 9/18/12


scott, the futile argument over the trinty has bled over here. i am out.
---aka on 9/18/12


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Scott, I have a question about our views of the HS.

How can the HS be God's active force or even :
"It may thus be compared to radio waves that can receive a message from a person speaking into a microphone and transmit the message to persons a distance away, in effect, "speaking" the message by a radio loudspeaker.
(Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, 1543

When even the NWT has the HS speaking " the holy spirit said: Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me
for the work to which I have called them. -Acts 13: 1- 3 New World Translation- looking forward to your response-Thanks
---Ruben on 9/18/12


"125 x 1"- aka

Uhhh...?

When speaking to the woman of Samaria Jesus said: God is a Spirit [a spiritual being- Williams], and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

True worship must be rendered with truth in that it must conform to what God has revealed in the Bible about himself and his purposes. Service to God must also be spirited, or zealous, motivated by a heart full of love and faith and guided by Holy Spirit. (Titus 2:14, 1 Cor 2:8-12)

"God is Spirit, and only by the power of his Spirit can people worship him as he really is." GNT

"...Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration." Message
---scott on 9/18/12


Maybe Morenz enjoyed believing the trinity had "direct links" to pagan Egypt.
---David8318 on 9/17/12

David,

Do you also belive in this Morenz statement:

"The Trinity is not the only subject- matter at issue here. Also Christology, which is closely linked to it - the doctrine concerning the nature of Christ and especially his pre-existence before the creation and time - revolves around questions which had been posed earlier by Egyptian theologians and which they solved in a strikingly similar way." In fact it was right after one of the quotes you gave, maybe you just miss it:)
---Ruben on 9/18/12


"Definitions"- aka

If I understand your argument, I believe you are saying that "Pneuma" in the NT always refers to the Almighty God...am I warm?

"We received, not the spirit [pneuma] of the world, but the spirit [pneuma] which is from God." 1 Cor 2:12.

"The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ be with the spirit [pneuma] you people show." Phm 1:25

"[Do not] be quickly shaken [by] inspired expression[s] [Pneumatos] or through a verbal message..." 2 thess 2:2, 1 Tim 4:2

"The wind [pneuma] blows where it wishes...So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit [pneuma]." John 3:8 ESV
---scott on 9/18/12


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"Explain John 4:24?"
The Father is The influential inspiring essence of Divine intellect, insight, awareness, and empowerment. They that worship Him, must do so in reliance upon the direct Divine inspiration He provides, via His word, to lead them into all truth, and to empower them to live out that truth. His Word Is Truth, and His words are "spirit, and they are life." Jhn 17:17>Jhn 6:63
---Josef on 9/18/12


//And by "my definitions"//

i mean the definitions that you supplied. i only have 125 x 1.

//"Ruach"//

the word is not used here, so let's keep it in context. i don't like red herring.

//Not sure I follow.//

yes, you do. thus, you serve the red herring.

let's try number two:

God (Theos) is spirit (pneuma)...

God is wind and they that worship him must worship him in wind and in truth.

therefore, according to your sources God is impersonal.

Do number 3 for giggles.
---aka on 9/17/12


"Let's experiment with your definitions..." aka

Not sure I follow.

Are you suggesting that every time the words "Pneuma" and "Ruach" are used in God's word that it's a reference to the person of the Almighty God?

And by "my definitions" I'm sure you mean the definitions provided by Strong's Concordance, Koehler and Baumgartners Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Brown, Driver, and Brigg's Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, etc.
---scott on 9/17/12


Scott, let's experiment with your definitions. first part of verse: Theos = divinity = God

1 God is breathe.
2 God is wind.
3 God is the vital force in living creatures.
4 God is ones spirit.
5 God is spirit persons or God is God.
6 God is God's active force.

"God is a Spirit (pneuma) and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (pneuma) and in truth. ---scott on 9/17/12

please pick one. keep in mind that second use of pnuema, in context, is a referent to the first use in that sentence.

the only one that makes sense in context is the 5th one, or you are saying that we are gods (4). otherwise, you are saying that God is an impersonal force (1, 2, 3, and 6.)
---aka on 9/17/12


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John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

A believer has Gods holy spirit working in him. Those who do not have Gods holy spirit are without him. To worship God in spirit means you have repented from your former life of sin and have been baptized to the promise of the reward the Lord Jesus will bring with him at the last day. The truth is Gods 10 laws. by having Gods holy spirit working in a life of a new Christian it is through the spirit we can do all things including obey Gods 10 laws (truth) by strength of the Lord.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/17/12


John 4:24 God is (a) Spirit"- aka

Context is key.

The Greek pneu'ma comes from pne'o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru'ach is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru'ach and pneu'ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have various meanings beyond that basic sense.

The very same word(s) can mean wind, the vital force in living creatures (yes, including animals), ones spirit, spirit persons (including God and his angelic creatures) and Gods active force, or holy spirit. (See Koehler and Baumgartners Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879, Brown, Driver, and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926, etc.
---scott on 9/17/12


"[If] the Spirit of God (pnuema) is an impersonal force, and it says God (theos) is spirit (pneuma), aren't they saying God is an impersonal force too?" aka

Note the entire verse that you have cited.

"God is a Spirit (pneuma) and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (pneuma) and in truth."

Same word different meanings based on context.
---scott on 9/17/12


pneuma ho theos

spirit the God

Does the sense of it change when it is read, "God is A spirit" and "God IS spirit"?
---Phil on 9/17/12


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God is a Spirit no matter what any denomination or person says and I am sure glad He is. Only a Spirit could come into my heart to dwell when I accepted His son Christ. Only a Spirit could be in many,many places and in billions of people who love Jesus in these 2000 years. Nothing but a Spirit could be with all His children to lead,love,and protect His children by walking in them and speaking to them all the time.
---Darlene_1 on 9/17/12


John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is not flesh and bones and blood. Nor is he human.

Those who worship god must do so in truth. Worshiping od involves only truth. We also cannot worship God by making images of God to look at while we worship Him. We must worship Him in Spirit

remove all traditions:
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

what is truth?

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
---francis on 9/17/12


aka, Strong's says pneuma is air, wind, etc..does this mean God is a breese???
We're playing word games here!
---1st_cliff on 9/17/12


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