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Are There Two Gospels

Who believes there are two entirely different Gospels in effect today, one for Jews and one for Gentiles?

If this is so, why did Paul get angry with Peter in Galatia for being a hypocrite?

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 ---kathr4453 on 9/17/12
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While Peter explains that Noahs salvation was a figure of the salvation found in the resurrection of Christ, ---:

---michael_e on 9/24/12


INCLUDING the Apostels. But what we do see is that even Peter, AFTER His death/resurrection, understood salvation based upon His death and resurrection, as we see(that verse PROVES it)just like ALL the Apostles who preached "HE IS RISEN!!!" This SAME Jesus you have Crucified.

YET you in the same breath CLAIM they understood that the KING and Kingdom also had to come through His death and Resurrection?

Zech 12-14 The KING also comes out of Heaven, and they look upon Him whom they peirced and mourn....
---kathr4453 on 9/25/12


Michael e, the prophets did not understand everything that Christ was going to encounter and when He would come, but they had the Spirit of Christ in them and were to prophesied what the Christ revealed to them. Of course only we know what exactly happen to Christ, but the gospel was the same, the grace that was to come.
Jesus Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit took up residence within the writers of the O.T. enabling them to write about the glorious salvation to be consummated in the future (2 Peter1:19-21).
---Mark_V. on 9/25/12


Mark_V.
Just want you to know, I believe your take on Gal_2:11 is correct!
I don't mean any disrespect to Peter! But, Paul is clearly saying, I got in his face!

A lot of people seem to think, getting mad or angry is some kind of sin!
I believe it is, if it's without a cause. But here, there is clearly a cause!

Gal_2:12 says, when certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles!
But later he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision!
This is being two faces!

Gal_2:13, thereby teaching other Jews!
Insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Their act of deceiving!

And if anger is sin, then Christ has sinned! Mar_3:5
Peace!
---TheSeg on 9/24/12


His faith and obedience was not based upon the knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but in the living God and his promise of a flood. Hebrews 11:7
Gospel"good news" for Noah
---michael_e on 9/24/12

michael_e, OT again tells of Jesus crucifixion, Isaiah 53, and His resurrection, Psalms 22. Zech 12-14. THIS IS the Gospel built upon the Prophets and Apostles.

ALL who preached at Pentecost were WITNESSES of His death and RESURRECTION. THIS michael_e is what they testified to.

Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again, as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12


While Peter explains that Noahs salvation was a figure of the salvation found in the resurrection of Christ, there is no mention of Noahs understanding of this truth. Peter reveals that no prophet understood such a salvation through Christ until after his death:

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11-12
---michael_e on 9/24/12




Michael_e, so what Gospel did Noah preach for 125 years? The Gospel of the building of the Ark?
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12


Michael_e, are you calling Peter a LIAR???

1st Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12


"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

withstood. Gr 436 antheistemi. To stand against.
Does not say anything about anger.
vs 14-16 are to correct
especially "...man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
---Chria9396 on 9/24/12


//Unless of coarse Micheel_e believes the blood of bulls and goats actually cleansed from sin?//
I don't recall saying that maybe you can point out where i did.
These different gospels can be understood by a careful study of Scripture making sure to rightly divide according to what had been revealed (2 Tim 2:15).
Noah was counted righteous because of his obedience to God and was saved through the building of the ark in a world without rain. His faith and obedience was not based upon the knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but in the living God and his promise of a flood. Hebrews 11:7
Gospel"good news" for Noah
---michael_e on 9/24/12


Oh I get it, YOU don't believe in eternal hell, damnation, or the Lake of Fire where the worm never dies.

This is where I and most Christians would part ways with you Phil. Yes, I believe in eternal hell or eternity in the New Heaven and Earth.

Jesus clearly tells us there is.

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


Oh , I forgot, only Jews are in danger of eternal damnation since the Gospels were only written for Jews, and the Holy Spirit was/is only for Jews...correct Phil!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/12




Phil, Paul was not happy at what Peter had done, he didn't go over and put his arms around him and said "great work Peter." He was mad at him. Peter was in the wrong and Paul rebuked him.
The incident recorded in (Gal. 2:11-21) is Pauls final documentation in support of his independence as an apostle. Not only did he not seek the approval of the apostles (1:18-2:10), Paul actually dared to publicly rebuke them when they were inconsistent with the gospel (2:11-21).
"Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed" So Paul did not go there to hug him, but to rebuke him for what he was doing.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12


Is "DEATH" too is a man made concept?---kathr4453 on 9/23/12

Can you say "ruse"?

Eternal damnation and everlasting punishment are fables perpetuated by false translations of the Greek word aion and its derivatives.

Skirting the issue, senseless retorts, and irrelevent statements only serve to keep the body in the Dark Ages.
---Phil on 9/23/12


There are no valid Gospel"s", AS IN PLURAL, in the OT. The Gospel was proclaimed to Adam/Eve Genesis 3:15, more fully revealed to Abraham, brought to fruition through Israel.

Abel sacrificed POINTING to the Promised Messiah who would one day BE THAT sacrifice once and for all.

Unless of coarse Micheel_e believes the blood of bulls and goats actually cleansed from sin? Or did you think the Jews believed the Messiah, Jesus Christ, would prick His finger, dropping some blood here and there for the New Covenant to come into effect.

Hebrews a Covenant or Testament can't come into effect until one dies.

You insult the intelligence of many michael_e. That Jesus would die and rise again WAS NOT A SECRET.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/12


Our gospel is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, gave His life as the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins, was crucified, and rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is what apostle Paul preached. There is only one gospel that we are to proclaim today. However, there have been other valid gospels in the past (Galatians 3:8, Matthew 9:35, and 10:5-7) and there will be others in the future (Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 14:6-7) after the rapture of the church.
---michael_e on 9/23/12


Anger is not mentioned here,
so neither should we mention it beyond personal opinion.
Phil on 9/23/12

Neither is it here!
Act_15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus,

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty,
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Co_10:15 I speak as to wise men, judge ye what I say.

Peace
---TheSeg on 9/23/12


Mark-v, thank you for responding. I hold you in high regard for your commitment to truth.

kataginosko (Gal 2:11) does not mean condemn. That would be katakrino, to down-judge.

The former means down-aware, or self-censured.

Saying Paul was angry at Peter, when there is no Holy Spirit comfirmation in the Bible, is inferential.

It is not God's view on the issue of Galatians 2:11

Ga 2:11 . And when Peter came to Antioch, to the face I stood up against him.

Anger is not mentioned here,
so neither should we mention it beyond personal opinion.
---Phil on 9/23/12


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Mark E. I support your view. Some here teach Arian heresy. In (Exo. 3:14) God said His name is, the "I AM" and in (John 8:56) Jesus said,
" Before Abraham was, I am" His listeners immediately understood that Christ was claiming to be eternal and thereby was asserting Himself to be God. The eternity of Christ is also found in the Pauline Epistles as in Colo. 1:16,17) where both eternity and work as Creator are affirmed,
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers, all things were created by Him, and for Him: and is before all things, and by Him all things consist"
---Mark_V. on 9/23/12


Eternal and never-ending are not inspired ideas. They are man-made concepts, inserted into God's written revelation.
---Phil on 9/21/12

Is "DEATH" too is a man made concept?

Jesus didn't die on a cross for our sin, that brought death, just to put us back in the Garden of Eden, mortal man made of clay only to die again.

And you also say Hebrews is a man made concept, not inspired or based upon truth, OT foundation, the Apostles or Prophets?

Hebrews 11:
THEY (OT)could not be made PERFECT without us (NT).Only Jesus who is GOD is PERFECT, and WE "IN HIM" are Perfect=7, and not unregenerate 666 mortals.

Jesus said I AM the WAY, TRUTH and "LIFE". I AM the RESURRECTION.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/12


\\First - if Jesus was chosen as Son all along, then He was Son before eternity began.\\

WRONG. That's like saying that a U.S. President, elected in November, has been the President since November. But he isn't President until January.


\\Second - Please show me YOUR Orthodox Rabinical learning about sons.\\

Just a diversion. Substantiate your "insult" remark, please.


\\Third - ...i.e. fully God and fully man.\\

Show us that ambiguous phrase in scripture. It's conjecture.


\\Fourth - You dishonor Christ by --"attempting"-- to make him lower than He is...\\

That is judgment of my motive. Only God knows that. You're attempting to make yourself higher than you are.
---James_L on 9/22/12


When I was a kid we use to go fishing on the mountain.
That's the first I ever saw a fish die.
Since then, I've seen old family member die too.
So this life had shown me, all life ends!

I even remember that real old tree across the street.
Well guess what? It's gone they cut it down too!

You remember the mountain I told you about? Well guess what, it's gone too!
Yes sir, this life sure hadn't shown me too many things that inspire, Eternal and never-ending!

In fact, life has shown me, that nothing is Eternal and never-ending!
Name one think that does not have an end!
Even time and space!

So, Eternal and never-ending are inspired ideas!
Not man's!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/22/12


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Phil, Kathr is right when she said Paul was angry at Peter. In fact it was one of the darkest of days in the history of the gospel. By withdrawing from the Gentile believers to fellowship with the Judaizers who held a position he knew was wrong, Peter had in appearance supported their doctrines and nullified Paul's divine teaching, especially the doctrine of salvation by Grace alone through faith alone (2 Cor. 6:14-18: 2 John 10,11). "To be blamed" is better translated "stood condemned" Peter was guilty of sin by aligning himself with men he knew to be in error and because of the harm and confusion he caused his Gentile brethren. When the Judaizers came, they pretended they were sent by James, they lied.
---Mark_V. on 9/22/12


A large portion of this debate is based upon mistranslating the the Greek word aion G165.

In the case of the KJV, it is rendered "for ever, everlasting".

This is not what the Greek word aion or its derivatives mean.

Eternal and never-ending are not inspired ideas. They are man-made concepts, inserted into God's written revelation.

Aionios means pertaining to an age, a period of long duration, with a beginning and an end.

As long as ignorance of this mistranslation is allowed to continue, is as long as fables will exist.
---Phil on 9/21/12


First - I agree. I don't see your point.
Second - How is it an insult to say that they didn't understand Hebrew thought concerning a son
Third - Palatable means nothing. What does scripture say?
Fourth - How does it dishonor Jesus to name Him as HEIR of God? One essence (monogene), yet the Father is greater as the benefactor
---James_L on 9/21/12

First - if Jesus was chosen as Son all along, then He was Son before eternity began.

Second - Please show me YOUR Orthodox Rabinical learning about sons.

Third - Scripture says Jesus was Son of Man and Son of God, i.e. fully God and fully man.

Fourth - You dishonor Christ by attempting to make him lower than He is. He is the Great God.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/21/12


Mark Eaton---9/20/12

\\First - ....Jesus was chosen as the Son before becoming Son.\\

I agree. I don't see your point.


\\Second - please stop insulting us Gentiles\\

How is it an insult to say that they didn't understand Hebrew thought concerning a son ----> ? ?


\\Third - ...Son of God and Son of Man? Is that more palatable for you?\\

Palatable means nothing. What does scripture say?


\\Fourth - If Jesus the Son is not honored...then you are not honoring the Father either.\\\

How does it dishonor Jesus to name Him as HEIR of God? One essence (monogene), yet the Father is greater as the benefactor
---James_L on 9/21/12


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John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now Phil states the earthly kingdom is not given ETERNAL LIFE, but only resurrection.

Yet you claim John was written to those Kingdom Now Jews only people.

Can you also show ANY Kingdom restored to Israel teaching anywhere else required to eat Jesus Flesh and drink his Blood? And in doing so, HAVE eternal life and would be resurrected?

Was eating and drinking Jesus Christ a requirement under the LAW of Moses?

He's not talking about communion here either.

No one is saved, given ETERNAL LIFE or resurrected by taking communion...even under LAW!
---kathr4453 on 9/21/12


Peter in his message in Jerusalem after Pentecost spoke of Jesus Christ according to prophecy which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21).

Peter taught things that were spoken by the prophets and Paul taught things that were kept secret from the prophets.
Rom16:25
It was kept secret from the prophets that Gentile salvation would occur through Israels fall (Rom 11:25). Also kept secret was the new body of believers that was being created which was separate from the elect nation of Israel (Eph 3:6).

Nor was it prophesied that there would be free salvation apart from the covenants and the law (Rom 3:21-22).
---michael_e on 9/20/12


Galatians 2:11-12
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Sorry Phil, it appears you have not read, or maybe just don't understand Galatians.

If Peter was in fact preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL, Paul would have said nothing. After all, it was a sin for Jews to eat with Gentiles.

ANS: Because there are not 2 Gospels. God already showed Peter through Cornelius that Gentiles were CLEANSED.

---kathr4453 on 9/20/12


If this is so, why did Paul get angry with Peter in Galatia for being a hypocrite?---kathr4453 on 9/17/12

Ga 2:11..I withstood him to the face.

It is not likely Paul was angry at Peter.

Holy Spirit would supply the thought that Paul loved Peter deeply and vice versa 2Pt 3:15.

Withstanding another who does not operate in truth should not elicit anger. If it does, then the righteousness of God is not at work.

God's indignation is reserved for unbelievers, not believers.
---Phil on 9/20/12


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There is only one evangel for today. The evangel of the grace of God

The early part of Paul's revelation of the truth required his witness to the remaining unbelieving Jews outside the Land.

Ac 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Until Israel as a whole rejected the Kingdom gospel
Ac 28:26, God could not introduce the present secret economy Eph 3:9 Col 1:26.

After his imprisonment, God allowed Paul to begin his full ministry as outlined in the Prison Epistles. The Kingdom gospel no longer was preached.
---Phil on 9/20/12


\\\\There is a BIG difference between quoting the Bible and delivering the Word of God.\\
---Cluny on 9/19/12

And unfortunately, you do very little of either.\\

But I DID. Not my fault if you don't accept it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/20/12


What a way to be prepared to always give an answer, huh?
---James_L on 9/20/12

I will take a shot at your four points:

First - Is 9:6 Unto us a Son is given. Gal 3:8, Gen 22:18 all these scriptures point to a physical Son before He was born. Jesus was chosen as the Son before becoming Son.

Second - unless you are an Orthodox Jew, please stop insulting us Gentiles

Third - How about Son of God and Son of Man? Is that more palatable for you?

Fourth - John 5:22-23 If Jesus the Son is not honored just as the Father is honored, then you are not honoring the Father either. Titus 2:13 Jesus is our Great God.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/20/12


\\There is a BIG difference between quoting the Bible and delivering the Word of God.\\
---Cluny on 9/19/12

And unfortunately, you do very little of either.

Are you gonna try to rebut my four points? Oh, wait. I get it. The snide remarks were nothing but a diversion so that the issue could be smothered by other posts, and that would allow you to excuse yourself from answering.

Slick move, Mr. Word of God Deliverer.

What a way to be prepared to always give an answer, huh?
---James_L on 9/20/12


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Apparently some people will never believe that Christ the Son is eternal. But they are missing much of the Truth. (Micah 5:2) tells us,
"The One to be Ruler of Israel, whose going forth are from of old, "From everlasting"
Jesus Christ the Son said to them
"Before Abraham was, I AM, then they took up stones to throw at Him,..." (John 8:58).
(Col. 1:16,17) tells us concerning the eternal Son,
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist"
---Mark_V. on 9/20/12


Michael_e, Jesus had to die and rise again B4 any Glorified King can reign. The promise of the restored Kingdom to Israel was a promise "AFTER they were scattered/DISPERSED due to disobedience. So, Ezekiel 36,Isaiah 66,Zechariah 12-14,Matthew 24-25 The Great tribulation period MUST HAPPEN FIRST.

Since Israel was still DISPERSED during the time of Jesus death and resurrection NO WAY could the Kingdom THEN be restored.

James and Peter's OPEN THEIR letters to the 12 Tribes "DISPERSED" "Scatteredand "was not Kingdom NOW teaching.Was Glorified Jesus on any Throne in Jerusalem? Zech 12-14.

TODAY Israel is back in their land and ONLY from now till the end can any restored Kingdom be fulfilled. ISAIAH 14!
---kathr4453 on 9/20/12


\\Apparently not, since I haven't seen any of it quoted by you.\\

I would like to point out something to James L and others.

There is a BIG difference between quoting the Bible and delivering the Word of God.

If you don't believe me, consider this:

Satan and the Pharisees quoted the Hebrew Scriptures to Jesus all the time, but would anyone be so foolish to say that they were telling Him the Word of God?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/19/12


In Acts 1:6, the disciples asked Jesus Christ, "... Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" To "restore" means to bring about something that existed previously. This is further emphasized by the word "again". Obviously they were expecting Jesus Christ to bring about an earthly kingdom, similar to that of Solomon and David, only greater. But note that Jesus Christ did not correct them and say, "No, you guys have it all wrong. It's only going to be a spiritual kingdom." Christ said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons ..." (Acts 1:7).
---michael_e on 9/19/12


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If Christ was the good news, how did Abraham, of the old testament, recieve the gospel, the good news, about Christ when Christ did not exist yet?
---Steveng on 9/19/12


Peter preached salvation through the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:2), salvation by Gods free mercy (1 Peter 1:3), the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), eternal security because of the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Acts 15 plainly states that all of the apostles, agreed on the gospel. Paul plainly said in (READ VERY CAREFULLY 1 Cor. 15:1-14) that they "all" preached the same gospel. preached Christ, His crucifixion (Acts 2:23), resurrection (Acts 2:24-32), ascension and Lordship (Acts 2:33-36). Paul states in Galatians 1, that anyone who preached a different gospel was cursed. \If Peter were truly preaching a different gospel he would have fallen under this curse.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


Phil, Jesus clearly tells those, it is for only the Father to know when. So yes infact Jesus was saying NO. Jesus sure didn't say YES did He?

I'm also sure Peter was with THEM who were asking. So, ALL with Him were asking. Sorry for that oversight. That doesn't make me a liar of the truth at hand. It doesn't CHANGE the outcome that Jesus did not say YES!.

You suggest that Jesus has a different agenda going on the same time the FATHER has His own Agenda going on...DIVIDING the Trinity as independent agents preaching two entirely different Gospels at the same time. THAT is BLASPHEMY and not adhearing to the TRUTH that The Holy Spirit is here to POINT TO JESUS, not the Fathers future plan for Israel.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


It should be noted that even though Jesus taught the law, coming kingdom, and even his identity as the son of God, belief in his atoning death and resurrection was not required for righteousness or salvation during his earthly ministry.

In fact, when he did try to explain that he had to die to his disciples, they were ignorant of the matter:

So what was their "good news"
---michael_e on 9/19/12


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Peter asked Jesus at that moment of His ascension...will you at this time restore the Kingdom to Israel. JESUS TOLD HIM NO. ---kathr4453 on 9/18/12

Misrepresenting the Word.

Ac 1:6 Those, indeed, then, who are coming together, asked Him,
Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons

It does not say "Peter asked", and it does not say, "JESUS TOLD HIM NO."

Failure to retain strict adherence to the written word is the hallmark of apostasy.
---Phil on 9/19/12


\\Has the Word of God come to you?\\

I never said it did.

But it was proclaimed by the Orthodox Church for nearly 2000 years without fear or favor before you came along with your weird exegesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/19/12


However, in the early parts of Acts, they never mention the blood, sacrifice, propitiation, or that Jesus Christ died for our sins. It had not yet been revealed. michael_e on 9/18/12

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
---francis on 9/19/12


---- However, in the early parts of Acts, they never mention the blood, sacrifice, propitiation, or that Jesus Christ died for our sins. It had not yet been revealed. michael_e on 9/18/12

Funny one michael_e, John the Baptist declared, "BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD".

The JEWS already understood "the BLOOD", after all they lived blood sacrifice every day.

The Gentiles however had no understanding of any Blood "Covenants", who had to be taught.

"Rose from the dead Through the BLOOD of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" is so clearly states in Hebrews 13:20-21.

Michael_e, exactly WHEN did the "everlasting covenant" come out from hiding?
---kathr4453 on 9/19/12


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Thank you Trey, Cluny and the Seg for standing for the Truth who is Christ Jesus who has always been the Son, and for standing for one Gospel. Jesus has always been the Son, before His incarnation, after His incarnation and forever. There is several descriptive titles concering the gospel, the gospel of peace (Eph. 6:15: the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 9:12: the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 24:14), and "an eternal gospel" (Rev. 14:6). Since there are different descriptive titles, Paul believed quite strongly that there was only one gospel, with the resulting inference that the various titles mentioned above are decriptive of the same gospel (Gal. 1:6-9) Don't be confused.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/12


\\is it just to YOU the word of God has come?\\
---Cluny on 9/18/12


So do you have anything useful to contribute?

Has the Word of God come to you? Apparently not, since I haven't seen any of it quoted by you.

Only snide remarks that display your lack of evidence.

What about my first, third and fourth points?

Hmmmm ???
---James_L on 9/18/12


Paul taught that Jesus Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, and that we are cleansed by His blood. But in all of his sermons in the early chapters of Acts, Peter made no mention of this, although he did say they Israel had murdered their messiah

Decades later, near the end of their lives, Peter and John each wrote of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:2-3, 18-21, 2:24, 5:12 and 1 John 1:7 and 2:2). However, in the early parts of Acts, they never mention the blood, sacrifice, propitiation, or that Jesus Christ died for our sins. It had not yet been revealed.
---michael_e on 9/18/12


Acts 11:15-17

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them,(CORNELIUS's HOUSEHOLD A GENTILE) as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Michael_e that spiritual baptism of JESUS is the NEW BIRTH!

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them( GENTILES) the like gift as he did unto us, (JEWS)who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God?

The Gift is the Gift of the Holy Spirit....
John the Baptists gospel of the earthly Kingdom did NOT promise teh Holy Spirit...
---kathr4453 on 9/18/12


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\\second, the creedal Christology comes from Gentiles who did not understand the significance of "son" in Hebrew thought.\\

You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?

As St. Paul asked people in Corinth, is it just to YOU the word of God has come?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/18/12


Paul told the Gentiles that Jesus Christ willingly gave up his life for our sins (Gal 1:4). Whereas, Peter repeatedly accuses the Jews of murder. One example is Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye crucified ...." Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...." Then in Acts 5:30 he says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Finally Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers ...."
---michael_e on 9/18/12


michael_e ,Absolutely wrong. When Jesus rose Thomas said I won't believe until I see. Then Jesus spent 40 days with them before ascending into heaven. Peter asked Jesus at that moment of His ascension...will you at this time restore the Kingdom to Israel. JESUS TOLD HIM NO. Therefore what Jesus taught them during those 40 days along with the help of the Holy Spirit bringing things back to their remembrance the preached the same Gospel as Paul. NO WHERE in Acts did the apostles even remotely preach the earthly kingdom. That would have been in direct disobedience.

Acts 1:6-7

One thing they remembered Jesus saying is...If you tear down THIS TEMPLE, meaning Himself, He would be raised up in 3 days.

More later
---kathr4453 on 9/18/12


Cluny,

first, I have asked many, many people to provide even one scriprue that speakes of an eternal Son. There simply aren't any.

second, the creedal Christology comes from Gentiles who did not understand the significance of "son" in Hebrew thought.

third, "fully God and fully man" is too ambiguous, and betrays the biblical distinction between the spirit and body, which is a reflection of the fear that early Christians had of Gnostic teachings.

fourth, Jesus said the Father is greater than the Son. If Son denotes His essence, then you must side with the Arians that Jesus would have a lesser essence than that of God.

His essence is WORD of God
His position is SON, or heir of God
---James_L on 9/18/12


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Evangel of the kingdom (of Jesus Christ)

Evangel of great joy Lk 2:10

evangel of peace Ac 10:36

evangel of the word of the Lord Ac 15:35

evangel of the grace of God. Ac 20:24

evangel of God Ro 1:1

my(Paul) evangel Ro 2:16

evangel of good Ro 10:15

evangel of the Uncircumcision Ga 2:7

evangel of your salvation Eph 1:13

evangel of the glory of the happy God 1Ti 1:11

There are many gospels.

It is the misinterpretation of the meaning of the word "gospel" that is causing this issue.
---Phil on 9/18/12


// Jesus said they wouldn't understand a lot of things UNTIL Jesus died and rose again//
Thank you, since they did not understand the death, burial and resurrection that Paul preached, it was impossible for them to preach the same gospel.
---michael_e on 9/18/12


JamesL, your Christology is all messed up.

The Christian teaching is that from the time of the incarnation of the Son/Logos in the womb of the Virgin Mary, Jesus is fully God and fully man in one person.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/18/12


The word "gospel"is being bandied about here but it simply means "good news"

There's plenty of good news in scripture!
Previous to his baptism Jesus was an "apprentice" as was the custom, 30 years of age was the age of "priesthood" and He was a priest in the likeness of Melchizadeck!
---1st_cliff on 9/18/12


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Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Just saying, some this are really, really hard to understand!
---TheSeg on 9/18/12


Cluny,
Jesus was not the Son before His baptism, but He was not merely a man either.

H was not heir of all things, either, being appointed as heir (Hebrews 1:2). Does that mean He was a mere man?

He was not our High Priest in His first 30 years. Was He a mere man?

Essence and function (or duty, or position) are two different things.


In essence, He is the Word of God. Never created, never ceasing, never at any time less than God.

But scriptrue says "I WILL be a Father to Him"
Right ???

The Father is greater than the Son, because the Benefactor is greater than the Heir. The King (Father) is greater than the Prince (Son).

Both are duty, function and position.
---James_L on 9/18/12


It is evident from 1 Cor 15:1-4 that the gospel of our salvation includes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as payment for our sins. This simple truth is the cornerstone of Christianity. Yet no where within Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John did the Twelve Apostles understand the preaching of the cross.
---michael_e on 9/18/12

michael_e, Jesus said they wouldn't understand a lot of things UNTIL Jesus died and rose again. Yet we see if you read ALL of 1st Corinthians 15, you will see that verses 1-4 open up the subject that he further goes into detail through out all of chapter 15.

Jesus is that LIFE Giving Spirit. It's the resurrected Jesus that gives that LIFE Giving QUICKENING Born Again Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/12


==\\So what was Jesus during those 30 years?\\
---Cluny on 9/17/12

According to scripture, He was:==

You didn't answer the question I asked, so maybe I should put it another way.

Was Jesus the Son during the 30 some years between His Incarnation and Baptism in the Jordan?

Or was He merely man?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/17/12


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It is evident from 1 Cor 15:1-4 that the gospel of our salvation includes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as payment for our sins. This simple truth is the cornerstone of Christianity. Yet no where within Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John did the Twelve Apostles understand the preaching of the cross.
---michael_e on 9/18/12


\\So what was Jesus during those 30 years?\\
---Cluny on 9/17/12


According to scripture, He was:

Growing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man (Luke 2:52)

But

Being tempted in that which He has suffered (Hebrews 2:18)

Since He suffered death, He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses (Hebrews 2:9, 3:3)

And we beheld His glory, that of the Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:14)

And after making purification for sin, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High (Hebrews 1:3)

of the Son He says "Your throne, o God, is forever and ever (Hebrews 1:8)

His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2)



questions ?
---James_L on 9/17/12


The CHURCH, aka the Body of Christ is that SPIRITUAL habitation, the heavenly Church. SION as Peter states is the heavenly church, not to be confused with earthly ZION which is earthly Israel.



Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


They both preached the SAME GOSPEL michael_e...Paul even credits the other "Apostles" as well...Read that verse in Ephesians very carefully. The Church was not build totally upon Paul.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


\\But He didn't become the Son until about 30 years after He became flesh\\
So what was Jesus during those 30 years?
Chopped liver?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Cluny on 9/17/12


Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
kathr4453 on 9/17/12



James_L, when do you think Jesus became the son of God?

When God said:
Mat_3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

At this point God is saying "this is my loved son" so he's already a son to God.
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Peace
---TheSeg on 9/17/12


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Who believes there are two entirely different Gospels in effect today, one for Jews and one for Gentiles?

If you talk to enough people you'll find, there are way more when just two!
That's why Gal1:6, doesn't give you a number he just said another gospel.
And Gal_1:6, makes it clear there is only one!
Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Peace
---TheSeg on 9/17/12


Gospel according to the power of God.

Gospel of Christ.

Our gospel.

What gospel did Jesus teach? (and it wasn't about himself)

What gospel did the apostles teach?

What gospel was preached to Abraham?

The gospel, the good news, is the Kingdom of God and how to get there.

Do an online KJV bible search for the words "kingdom" and "gospel". How many of you will read every verse?
---Steveng on 9/17/12


Paul revealed a message of trusting the function of the death and resurrection for justification (Romans 3:24-25).
---michael_e on 9/17/12

from Paul to the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
---francis on 9/17/12


\\But He didn't become the Son until about 30 years after He became flesh\\

So what was Jesus during those 30 years?

Chopped liver?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/17/12


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Kathr, there is only one gospel!
Gal1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal1:7 Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Paul was upset with the Galatians because they wanted to return to the law (or a works based doctrine of salvation) rather that the true gospel of salvation by the grace of God, that came to us by the shed blood of Jesus Christ upon the cross at Calvary and was made certain and evident by his death, burial and resurrection!
---trey on 9/17/12


michael_e which Peter are you referring to? Peter absolutely preached the Blood of Jesus.

1 PETER 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers,

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
---kathr4453 on 9/17/12


There is only one gospel for today(1Cor 15:1-4) how ever there are far more than two gospels in the Bible

Based upon the necessary conditions for righteousness, we can see that Paul not only taught a different message but a different gospel than the disciples. Whereas, the disciples taught faith in the Christ as the Son of God and commandment-keeping as their standard for righteousness, Paul revealed a message of trusting the function of the death and resurrection for justification (Romans 3:24-25).

Peter taught the crucifixion as the ultimate example of unjust persecution (Acts 2:23, 1 Peter 2:20-24). However, the blood of Christ was something that was necessary for the glory of the gospel preached by Paul (Col 1:14, Romans 3:24).
---michael_e on 9/17/12


\\The Logos/Son was eternally with the Father and the Spirit, but was not known as Jesus until His Incarnation...\\
---Cluny on 9/17/12


Still not quite accurate.

The Logos/Word was with God, and was God, and is God, from eternity and forevermore.

But He didn't become the Son until about 30 years after He became flesh

The prophecy:
2Samuel 7:14, Psalm 2:7, cf. Hebrews 1:5

The announcement:
Matthew 3:16-17, Hebrews 1:5

The fulfillment:
Romans 1:4, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 12:2


Son does not describe His essence, it describes His position as firstborn, and heir.
---James_L on 9/17/12


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\\But Jesus came before Moses, so Jesus can't be a replacement for the law if He has been before the law!\\

Not quite accurate.

The Logos/Son was eternally with the Father and the Spirit, but was not known as Jesus until His Incarnation in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/17/12


There seem to be people who think we are trying to "replace" the law of Moses with Jesus. But Jesus came before Moses, so Jesus can't be a replacement for the law if He has been before the law! And Jesus is our Groom, but ones seem to claim that Jews who keep the law don't need to know Jesus is our Messiah and Groom.

Well, if you think you don't need to know who Jesus is, then I suppose you're ok with having the husband God has for you and who loves you dearly and you don't even know who he is.
---willie_c: on 9/17/12


There is only one gospel

Paul rebukes Peter because Peter being the leader of the church had lots of influence. Peter unknowingly gave this power to the Jewish followers (some who were Judaziers) by eating with them and turning away from the gentile followers. Peter's fear on man issues but that is another topic. Paul loving the gentile followers saw what was happening and rebuked him for it. The Judaizers in Galatia then took this power of Peter's to form the 1st class christians, aka those that follow Jesus and Moses (Law) vs 2nd class, the Gentiles-who only follow Jesus. We do this today by forming exclusive church cliques in which we set-standards for people to match to be in our "club".
---Scott1 on 9/17/12


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