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Lose Sinful Nature

Some, not all SDA's followers, suggest that born again Christians lose their sinful nature and become sinless, what do you say and please give Scripture?

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 ---Mark_V. on 9/20/12
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1 John 3:9- (1)

To illustrate the difference in the Greek tenses: At 1 John 2:1, John says: "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father". KJV.

The Greek verb for "sin" is in the aorist tense, so the time of the action is momentary. The aorist tense here points to one act of sinning, whereas the present infinitive would indicate the condition of being a sinner or the continuous action in sinning.

Here John does not speak of someone carrying on a practice of sinning, but of one who commits a sin.

(See Mt 4:9, where the aorist indicates that the Devil did not ask Jesus to do constant or continuous worship to him, but an act of worship.)

Continued
---scott on 10/1/12


1 John 3:9- (2)

Continued-

But the rendering of 1 John 3:6, 9 in the KJV (and others) fail to reflect the clear fact that the verb there is in the present tense. These renderings fail to carry over into English the continuous action denoted by the present tense of the Greek verbs used.

Rather than saying "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not," with an eye to the Greek grammar, other translations render the verbs accordingly:

"makes a practice of sinning" (CB),

"does not habitually sin," (CB)

"does not practice sin (Ph),

"does not continue to sin" (TEV).
---scott on 10/1/12


Some, not all SDA's followers, suggest that born again Christians lose their sinful nature and become sinless, what do you say and please give Scripture?

---Mark_V. on 9/20/12


So WHO IS "SOME"?
So why pick on "SOME" SDA's?
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12

More importantly, can Mark_V actually produce one shred of evidence that ANY SDA believe that. I wish he would give a reference, or better yet CUT AND PASTE such posting
---francis on 9/30/12


Warwick: A reminder, I'm not saying Christians live perfect lives.
Also, I have shown many scriptures confirming each other that Christians cannot sin. Where we seem to differ is on definitions of sin. I use definitions from scripture, which confirms why scripture says we cannot sin. BUT you seem to use non-specific/ambiguous definitions. BTW, what is your defintion of sin?

You quoted James 2:14 saying we need to see works.
Agreed.
And note: Our works are to BELIEVE on Jesus, John 6:29.
Hence my earlier question to you. Do you judge righteousness by outward appearence/behaviour OR believing on Jesus?
---Haz27 on 9/30/12


Jerry, I posted the blog for one reason, because of my SDA neighbors. There is many things I don't know about SDA's. What I know is what you, francis say, and the two neighbors tell me they believe in. And since I have been here you and francis preach the Law, not Jesus Christ, that is why 98% of your answers come from the Old Testament. You say I judge, but it's been you who has judged all of us for not following the law given to Israel concerning the ceremonial Saturday Sabbath. That's why all your blogs are about the Ten Commandments. But what you forget is that we are free from the yoke of the law, we rest in Christ.
So all I wanted to find out was if SDA's really believe in sinlessness. Now I know they don't but pretend as if they are.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12




Scott: Regarding 1John3:9 are you suggesting we discard these Bible versions as they contradict the doctrine you follow? KJV,CEB, YTL,Wycliffe, NAS,Lexham, Holman,Douay Rheims, Darby,ASV.

And what of other scriptures that contradict the doctrine you follow? 1Pet 4:1, 1Pet 4:18, John 8:36, Gal 2:15 1John 5:18 Rom 6:2,7,18, 1Tim 1:9, etc? Scripture confirms scripture and they confirm we cannot sin.

Regarding this doctrine of 'habitual' sin, I have never been able to get an answer from any followers of this doctrine as to what determines 'habitual'. As this is an important salvation issue then clearly there must be some limit given in scripture to explain what 'habitual'is. Is it 7x70?

And what is your defintion of sin?
---Haz27 on 10/1/12


Haz, you now said,

""If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (without Christ)..."
This context declares salvation to those in unbelief,"


The context is not declaring salvation to those in unbelief, there is no gospel message. What that psssage does is expose someone who claims he fellowships with Christ and still walks in darkness is not a genuine believer. Believers walks in the light. That is now their practice. If there is no change, he does not belong to God. But all of God's children are partakers of God's chastening because they sin, if you are not chasten, you are illegitimate and not sons. (Heb. 12:7,8).
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12


Scott: You misquote me. I said YOUR USE of 1John2 contradicts Rom 3:25.
Consider context of 1John1 & 2.
"Bear witness, show unto you eternal life"
"declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship...with the Father and his Son.."
"If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (without Christ)..."
This context declares salvation to those in unbelief, the sin the world is convicted of. This is who 1John 2 refers to.

As Rom 3:25 shows it's PAST sin dealt with on the cross, how is subsequent sin dealt with?
Rom 6:2 asks, "HOW shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?" We've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1.

Whats your definition of 'sin'?
---Haz27 on 9/30/12


Some, not all SDA's followers, suggest that born again Christians lose their sinful nature and become sinless, what do you say and please give Scripture?

---Mark_V. on 9/20/12


Really, I thought all SDA's believe you can lose your salvation?

So some actually believe in eternal security? Well, that's at least something to start with. Sinless people never sin. And those who never sin cannot lose their salvation is that right SDA's.

So WHO IS "SOME"? SOME of many denomination/sects believe they are sinless. JW's for one. third generation Mormons...ELOY who was Pentecostal...

So why pick on "SOME" SDA's?
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


Haz, in answer to your questions-being set free from the power of sin and being sinless are 2 very different things. We no longer commit sin, as a lifestyle, it is not our intentional daily way of living, but this doesn't mean we cannot, nor do not sin. Until you understand we are still human, still imperfect, and not as we will be in heaven you will not understand the difference. James 2:14 talks of the difference between what a man says, and what he does. We can only discern by what we see.

Christ is my Saviour but I am still an imperfct man living in a sin filled world knowing perfection is yet to come.

You have not shown that we cannot sin from Scripture but from selective quoting and making Scripture say what you wish.
---Warwick on 9/30/12




"1 John 2:1, 2 contradicts Rom 3:25" Haz27

No the apostle Paul (Romans 3:25) certainly does not "contradict" John at 1 John 2:1. Rather, John's words contradict you.

Of course Christ propitiates for past sin but the clear language of 1 John 2:1, 2 (and certainly the Greek grammar that he employed) reveals that because of human imperfection we can and will continue to sin now and in the future.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if (Gk- ean "if, in case") anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
---scott on 9/30/12


"1 John 3:9 "does not sin...cannot sin..." Haz27

Translations like the KJV ignore the continuous action denoted by the present tense of the Greek verbs that John employed.

Other translations, paying closer attention to that important detail, reflection that continuous action by rendering the verse:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning...and he cannot...keep on sinning because he has been born of God." English Standard Version

"Practices sin," "makes a practice of sinning" (CB), "does not habitually sin," "does not practice sin" (Ph), "does not continue to sin" (TEV).
---scott on 9/30/12


Hi Joseph and Calhoon. It's good to see God has given you understanding. It took me some years before I received this understanding on scripture.

Mark V. Correct. Jesus is the TRUTH. Unbelief is the sin the world is convicted of and is the sin 1John 1:8 refers to. Do you see now that 1John 1:8 speaks to the unsaved?

Christan. Yes, the Flesh still tries to defeat the Spirit. It wants to bring us back to self-righteous works (sin). BUT if we continue to BELIEVE on Jesus then we walk in the Spirit and not sin. Remember, unbelief is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
---Haz27 on 9/30/12


Amazing how you and Haz make up your own doctrines---christan on 9/30/12

I do not know Haz. We are not related, nor associates. I stand alone in my faith.

Hb 1:1 . God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.

I am not a Hebrew, God never spoke to my progenitors, and I know of no prophets in my bloodline.

Hb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son.

At this point, I realize this letter could not be written to me. I am not qualified to consider me as an "us", since the preceeding verse says who it was written to.

Fathers and prophets and us.

Scripturally speaking, this means Jew. I am a Gentile of the nations.
---Phil on 9/30/12


Phil: "However, in God's purposes, He may or may not deal with us..."

Amazing how you and Haz make up your own doctrines as you go along. Read Hebrews 12:6-8,

"For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

So, if God does not deal with your sins as a Christian, you were never his to begin with, ie you're not a Christian. That's why both you and Haz seem to be so comfortable with your sins that you deny it even exists when you become a Christian.
---christan on 9/30/12


Ro 8:30 ...and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

In a sense, the elect chosen of God are sinless.

Our sins will not bar us from entrance into sonship with Him and His Beloved. We are saved from death and enter into eoinian life.

As to this present life, sins of commission and sins of ignorance are not avoidable.

However, in God's purposes, He may or may not deal with us, as His light of judgment and Holy Spirit conviction preside over us continually.

Fleeing from youthful lusts, yielding our members to the Holy Spirit of grace, and realizing even our failings are a means to conform us to His Sons' image, should keep sin in perspective.
---Phil on 9/29/12


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Haz: "What sin do we struggle against? Unbelief."

You obviously cannot comprehend the message of Paul in Romans 7. He's speaking of the sin that still exists in the flesh while the Christian is still alive in the flesh and nothing to do with the unbelief of God. This message from Paul was after conversion and not before. But he still talks about sin.

Why? Paul was sharing with the Christian that when he's born of the Spirit, there will be a great struggle between his flesh and his spirit, with regards to the sin that still exist in his flesh.

Paul never taught what you are propagating, and that's after conversion, you have become sinless in the flesh.
---christan on 9/29/12


Very well done Haz. You have answered every question put to you courteously, and most importantly, scripturally. I know you have no need of any man's agreement, however, I would like for you to know, that I personally stand in total agreement with your posts in their entirety. Keep sharing.
---joseph on 9/29/12


Haz, you again asked,

"Hi Jim. What 'sin' is 1John 1:8 referring to? What definition of 'sin' do you use?"

You want to claim one sin counts but others don't. If you read the passage you would know the definition of the sin, "And the Truth is not in us" The definition of the sin, is not having the Truth in you Haz. So he say, you have been deceived. What is not having the Truth? Not having Christ in you. He is the Truth. What other sin are you looking for that is worse?
---Mark_V. on 9/30/12


*************

MarkV: "Isn't that what you and Jerry have been peddling for a long time?"

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.....

Do you think that your unfounded libel against your fellow Christians somehow ingratiates you with God? Do you think that by pointing at others your sins are not counted? As a predestinationalist, you think that you have been stamped "saved" from the foundation of the world, and can sin with impugnity. [Prove me wrong!] You are not a child of the King, but of your father, "the Accuser of the Brethren".

*************
---jerry6593 on 9/30/12


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You are right Cluny. I meant to say that if sin is no longer imputed we can come to God in faith and be saved through faith alone. We will have imputed righteousness upon belief in Christ. We will not be sinners but Saints now.
---calhoon on 9/30/12


Hi Jim. What 'sin' is 1John 1:8 referring to? What definition of 'sin' do you use?

As for Rom 7, it speaks of 'sin' in terms of transgressing the law.
"sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it KILLED me." Rom 7:11

Paul speaks of being UNDER LAW, which is a carnal/unsaved state of establishing righteousness by works instead of by faith. Rom 7:15-24 speaks of unsaved/CARNAL (Rom 7:14) mankind. To be carnally minded is DEATH, Rom 8:6.

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9) for righteousness, so how can Paul be speaking of himself directly as sinning? Where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN), Rom 4:15.
---Haz27 on 9/29/12


The Apostle Paul, one of the most faithful believers ever, struggled with his sin nature, long after his conversion. (Romans 7). John is writing to believers in I John, and says that 'If we say we have no sin, we are deluding ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' Again, his audience is believers. Christians do sin, but if a person has absolutely no conviction of their sin I would question the genuineness of their faith.
---Jim on 9/29/12


\\Blessed is the man whom God will NOT imput sin. Thats why Christians are made righteous, We have imputed righteousness now,we cannot sin. Sin has been taken away.\\

Not having sin imputed is NOT the same thing as having righteousness imputed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/12


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Follower of Christ: Yes, Christ crucified intercedes for mankind. And once we come to Christ PAST sins are forgiven (Rom 3:25) and henceforth we have CEASED from sin (1Pet 4:1), CANNOT sin (1John 3:9). Christ is now our righteousness. We're PERFECTED by his offering (Heb 10:14).

Regarding the "law" and "carnal mind", note what scripture says.
"Christ is the END of the law for righteousness", Rom 10:4
Our righteousness is now imputed, by faith, instead of by works.

The carnal mind rejects righteousness by faith and seeks it by works instead. This is unbelief and not submitting to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3. They profess to know God but by their works of the law they deny Him, Tit 1:16
---Haz27 on 9/29/12


Hi Scott. Note your use of 1John 2:2 contradicts Rom 3:25. Both verses confirm Christ is the propitiation for sin. BUT Rom 3:25 says it's for PAST sin, which contradicts your claim we still sin.
1John 2:2"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins"
Rom 3:25 "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood,.....,God had passed over the sins that were PREVIOUSLY committed".

And 1John 3:9 says we "CANNOT" sin, confirming Rom 3:25, PAST sin only, and 1Pet 4:1 that we've "CEASED" from sin.

Conisder the context of 1John1. Note how it declares eternal life and fellowship with the Father and Jesus. It declares salvation to the unsaved in unbelief (sin) and this is who 1John 2 addresses.
---Haz27 on 9/29/12


Blessed is the man whom God will NOT imput sin. Thats why Christians are made righteous, We have imputed righteousness now,we cannot sin. Sin has been taken away.
No more death and jail time.
We are alive and free.
---calhoon on 9/29/12


the Lord Jesus is the high priest and intercessor for sin. to claim you have no sin is to also claim you have no savior, afterall there is no need for a high priest who intercedes on your behalf to the Father in heaven if you are perfect. the wicked claim they are sinless to because they are without the law and cannot be with the law because their minds are carnal. the Lord stated many would have his name on their lips yet he will say to them in that day depart I never knew you. holy scripture does not state Christians are sinless.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/29/12


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"My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole worlds." 1 John 2:1 & 2
---scott on 9/29/12


Christian. You differ from the claim that Christ set us free from sin. BUT scripture says:
John 8:36 "if the Son makes you FREE, you shall be FREE indeed"
Rom 6:7 "he who has died has been FREED from sin"
Rom 6:18 "set FREE from sin"

Have I stopped sinning? Answer: I've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1
I'm not in sin of unbelief (John 16:9).
I'm not under the law for righteousness and where there is no law there is no transgression (sin 1John 3:4), Rom 4:15
Unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17), but I'm righteous in Christ, hence no sin.

What sin do we struggle against (Heb 12:1)?
Unbelief (falling short of the grace of God, Heb 12:15). Example: establishing righteousness by works of law.
---Haz27 on 9/29/12


"For the wages of sin is death..."

So Haz27 ignores sin in himself and prescribes the same to christians, saying that they are righteous, their behavior do not count so that anything they may do never is sin.
Of course, also that they are in like flinn with a one way ticket to heaven.

crissy acknowledges sin, but only for that special elite she can't stop talking about, sin matters not since they also are in like flinn.
Basically they believe the same thing.
---Nana on 9/28/12


Hebrews 12:1, 2 & 4:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God...

...In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood."
---scott on 9/28/12


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Haz, you said, "Christ set us free from sin". I beg to differ. Because if that was so, you would have stopped sinning but have you?

What Christ did was far greater than setting you free "from sin". And that's, "For the wages of sin is death...". Do you know what was hanging right before us? 'DEATH"! And we are reminded,

"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

Jesus DIED on behalf of His people setting His people free from the "curse of the law"!
---christan on 9/28/12


Warwick: No, the world is not in a pre-sin state. Like Israel when they left Eygpt, we are in the wilderness. Those who endure to the end, believing on Jesus, will enter God's rest. So we still have to be wary of falling back into sin (unbelief), Heb 12:1.

I hope this answers your questions. BTW here's a few questions I asked that you also missed. Can you answer them please.

I asked if you believe if Christ set us free from sin?
Also I asked do you judge perfection/righteousness by outward appearance/behavior?
And, Who do you see yourself as? Is it Christ in you or the physical old man?
---Haz27 on 9/28/12


Christan: How do we feel dead in this world?

BELIEVE on Jesus.

Rom 6:3 "of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

Rom 6:6 "our old man is crucified with him"

Rom 8:10 "if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin"

Gal 3:27 "as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"
---Haz27 on 9/28/12


Haz, true that the flesh will return to dust. But you cannot say just because you're a Christian - the body is dead. How do you feel dead while still in this world? Be realistic - that's why Paul wrote Romans 7 talking about his struggle with sin. To struggle with sin daily is a sign you are born of the Spirit. Do you struggle?

The blessed hope is when Paul penned Romans 8 that nothing can separate the Christian from the love of God. That's why a Christian can never lose his salvation that's been given to him by God Almighty. It's a promise. But make no mistake, while we're still in this world, we will continue to sin and God will discipline only those whom He love for their sins. But their salvation will never be taken away.
---christan on 9/28/12


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Haz, please answer my questions, they are relevant.
---Warwick on 9/28/12


Trey: Sin results in DEATH/separates man from God.
So if Christ didn't set us free from sin, as you suggest, then Christians would still be under the death penalty and separated from God.

As for Rom 7, it speaks of sin in terms of transgressing the law.
"sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it KILLED me." Rom 7:11

He's speaking of being UNDER LAW, which is a carnal/unsaved state of establishing righteousness by works instead of by faith. Rom 7:15-25 speaks of unsaved/CARNAL (Rom 7:14) mankind. To be carnally minded is DEATH, Rom 8:6.

And note Rom 7:25 saying we have been DELIVERED. Why would Paul say he still sins if he's been delivered?

What is your definition of sin?
---Haz27 on 9/28/12


Christan: See my post to Trey regarding what Rom 7 refers to.

If you recall my earlier posts, I did not "use one brush to paint this picture", as you said.

I agree the soul is saved. But, as I said before, the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).

We both agree it's the new creation that cannot sin. This new creation IS WHO WE ARE NOW, in Christ.
And since the body is DEAD because of sin why would you then want to judge our righteousness by it's behavior?
Our righteousness is in Christ, instead.
---Haz27 on 9/28/12


Haz27, you tell everyone here "that Christians cannot sin". It's true that Scripture says that, but does it stop there? You use one brush to paint this picture, which if you do not speak about the tripartite man (his body, soul & spirit) - it seems when one becomes a Christian, he cannot sin anymore in body, soul & spirit. That's not true as Trey has given you evidence from Paul's experience in Romans 7.

The "new creation" Paul speaks, that specifically points to the once before dead spirit of the man that's made alive by the Holy Spirit. It does not refer to the body and soul. And when God sanctifies the sinner, it's the soul He sanctifies - not the body or the spirit.
---christan on 9/27/12


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Haz, what do you think the Apostle Paul meant when he said,
"Ro7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

Do you understand the difference between "do" and "did"?
---trey on 9/27/12


Warwick , Mark V: I have shown you many scriptures confirming that Christians cannot sin. You have struggled, without any scriptural support, to try to disprove or ignore them. This is only hindering your own understanding of the truth that Christ truly set us free from sin as He promised.

A reminder too, that it's our NEW CREATION, in Christ, that cannot sin. I do not refer to our physical lifestyle. That physical is dead, Rom 8:10

Who do you see yourself as? Is it, "I no longer live but Christ lives in me", Gal 2:20 OR do you judge righteousness according to how good your physical behavior is?
If it's the latter then you are without Christ trying to establish your own righteousness (SIN).
---Haz27 on 9/27/12


Mark_V, notice how I quote this two bloggers:

Do they really believe they've lost their sin nature and no longer become angry, or jealous, or fail to walk by faith, or lie, etc.
---trey on 9/26/12

( The Bible Gives this Great Example Of David - a saved person, Falling in to Sin )
---RichardC on 9/26/12

Now neither trey nor richardc can deny that they made this statement.

I am now free to comment on both posts

Now I ask you to do the same for the things which you say that I have said.

Just cut and past it
---francis on 9/27/12


Haz,do you believe the world has been returned to its pre-sin state? Considering our present sufferings (Romans ch. 8) did Adam and Eve likewise suffer in the pre-sin world? Or are we still suffering because of Adams sin? Isn't Paul talking about what is yet to come?

Do you think we are, as we will be in heaven, sin free, without death, suffering or pain-Revelation 21:4. We aren't, death disease and suffering still surrounds us. We still sin as Paul bemoans, as 1 John 2:1-3 proves.

As to Law it is no longer on tablets of stone for us, but written on our hearts. Nonetheless we can no more willingly commit adultery, murder, or steal with impunity, than could Moses, or Abraham or....
---Warwick on 9/27/12


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Haz, Warwick is correct. I really do not see your logic. Here is what you are suggesting:
1. for you there is no such thing as law.
2. That if there was Paul would die, by the way, he did die a physical death because of sin.
3. That you can kill someone and it is not sin.
4. That you have been completely perfected. Suggesting you will never die, because someone perfect does not die. Glorification (perfection) only happens at the resurrection when we receive a perfect body prepared for all eternity.
(Rom. 10:14) Christ has perfected forever (now hear this) those who are being sanctified" We are not perfect yet, but when we are after the resurrection it will be forever. The process started already.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/12


Trey, Richard.
Regarding King David's transgressions, he was under the law, before the cross.

As for Paul a "chief sinner", 1Tim 1:15, read verse 13 for context.
"I WAS FORMERLY a blasphemer, a persecutor..."

CLEARLY he refers to his PAST, in humanity's record of sinners.
If he still remained the "chief sinner" by blaspheming and also persecuting the church, then he wouldn't be a Christian.

Interesting to note Phil 3:6 Paul describes himself as: "concerning zeal, persecuting the church, concerning the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS".

BUT he now has righteousness of God by faith, Phil 3:9. He is no longer a sinner.



---Haz27 on 9/26/12


Mark V, my answer to those that claim to be sinless is this:

1Tim1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM CHIEF.
Paul did not say "I WAS" he said "I AM".

The Apostle Peter was born again, but that didn't keep him from denying Christ.

It is also my belief that the Old Testament Saints were born again, but that did not stop Moses from striking the rock, or David from having Uriah killed, or Abraham lying about who Sarah was, etc.

Do they really believe they've lost their sin nature and no longer become angry, or jealous, or fail to walk by faith, or lie, etc.
---trey on 9/26/12


2 Samuel 11:4 - AND David sent a messengers, And Took her and she came in unto him,and he lay with her ,for she was purified from her uncleanness, and she returned unto her house.
11:5 - And the women conceived,and told david, and said, I am with child.


Acts 13:22 -And when he had removed him, raised up unto them David to be there king to whom also he gave testimony and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart , Which shall fulfill all my will.

( The Bible Gives this Great Example Of David - a saved person, Falling in to Sin )
---RichardC on 9/26/12


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---Mark_V. on 9/26/12

Less yapping and POST my comments
---francis on 9/26/12


Warwick. Note how Rom 7 speaks of sin in terms of transgressing the law.
"sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it KILLED me." Rom 7:11

He's speaking about being UNDER THE LAW, which is a carnal/unsaved state. Rom 7:15-25 speaks of unsaved/CARNAL (Rom 7:14) mankind. To be carnally minded is DEATH, Rom 8:6. And sin results in death. If Paul still sinned he's destined for death.
BUT we're NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9) and where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN), Rom 4:15.

Do you judge perfection by outward appearance/behavior or do you believe God that by Christ's one offering we have been PERFECTED and SANCTIFIED, Heb 10:10,14?
---Haz27 on 9/26/12


francis, now you are denying you are not sinless, that you never wrote that. Well, it was about time you admitted you are a sinner like everyone except Haz and Duane. They still insist they are sinless. Look francis, I really don't care when you want to worship. I don't tell you what to do. But I believe everyone is tired of hearing about the Law given to Israel, because it is all a smoke screen to introduce the Saturday Sabbath. So before you try to take the speck from my eye, take the log out of your eye. Your SDA self-righteous believes are useless to those who are in Christ. We rest in the Lord, you can rest on the Law as much as you want.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12


francis, didn't you say you keep the Ten Commandments? That others don't. That since you keep the fourth makes you righteous and those who don't are not righteous? Isn't that what you and Jerry have been peddling for a long time?
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12

If what you say is true, why do you not just POST IT?
---francis on 9/26/12


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Haz, It's time for you to join a conservative Bible teaching church to have your personal theories tested by teaching from God's word.

In Romans 7:15-25 Paul bemoans his sinfulness-knows what he should do and fails to do it, knows what he shouldn't but does it. But you say he doesn't sin!

In Ch. 8 Paul explains Adam's sin brought decay upon all Creation. Now no longer as created. Creation is still struggling and "groaning"-perfection yet to come. We remain physically and spiritually flawed, eagerly awaiting the coming liberation of Creation from its bondage to decay. Do you imagine perfection has come, that Creation has already been restored to its pre-sin state? Do you imagine this is the world as God created it?
---Warwick on 9/26/12


francis, didn't you say you keep the Ten Commandments? That others don't. That since you keep the fourth makes you righteous and those who don't are not righteous? Isn't that what you and Jerry have been peddling for a long time? Your sinless and others who sin? If you felt that all sin, you would not accuse others of sinning.
I have two neighbors who are SDA's they claim they are sinless, because of the same reasons, they keep the Ten Commandments. But I am their neighbor and know they are not sinless, when they drink and smoke, and party all the time even on the Sabbath. I'm sure if I lived with them, I would know more. If they keep the Saturday Sabbath, it doesn't change their nature. They are sinners just like you and I.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/12


Hi Warwick: No offense intended, as we all can be forgetful at times, but I have answered you twice before, months ago, that I am non-denominational. And I visit local churches such as AOG or Baptists, etc.

Also, if you can recall, it was I who have always been giving the various scriptural definitions of 'sin'. I have been trying to show you sin is more than just transgression of the law.
And now in Christ we are NOT in rebellion/unbelief (sin).
We are now in the Spirit and NOT in the flesh, as Rom 7:5, Rom 8:9 say. This is what Paul was showing in Rom 7. Christ has DELIVERED us, Rom 7:25. Hence we have 'ceased from sin', 1Pet 4:1 and 'cannot sin', 1John 3:9.
---Haz27 on 9/25/12


---trey on 9/24/12
If I did not quote you exact, but paraphrased you, and was yet correct that is one thing.

But to make a complete false statement is another thing.

Mark is not paraphrasing, he is telling lies.

On the same note, if i did missrepresent your statement you MUST bring it to my attention

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
---francis on 9/25/12


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Haz, you now accept sin is not just acting against the law-one step forward.

To a point you are correct:we are not in full rebellion against God, as we once were, but are still flesh with all the inherent hypocrisy and frailness that entails. That is why John says we have an advocate with the Father, for when we sin. This is what Paul complains of in Romans 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." In your doctrine Paul musn't be saved!

BTW why do you avoid telling us what denomination you attend? Would that give the game away?
---Warwick on 9/25/12


francis, my friend, and I mean that sincerely, if you will notice when we were discussing "where do the dead go", I'm not sure you quoted me correctly one time, but I did not get upset with you. Why are you getting upset with Mark V?
---trey on 9/24/12


francis, I got that from your answers.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12

POST MY EXACT ANSWER
DO NOT TRY TO PARAPHRASE

Where did i ever say that christians lose thier sin nature

POST MY EXACT ANSWER
---francis on 9/24/12


Warwick: Yes, sin is rebellion against God. And Christians are NOT in rebellion. We believe God's promise. We believe on Jesus. We've submitted to God's righteousness, by faith. Thus, we have ceased from sin.

Trey: James L is correct, we need to quote scripture in context.
Regarding Rom 7. Yes, it does speak of the war between flesh/Spirit for mankind. BUT only one can rule. Who delivers us from this? Christ Jesus, Rom 7:25. We now have the victory, being set free from sin. We are no longer in the flesh. We are in the Spirit, (Rom 7:5, Rom 8:9).
We have been crucified with Christ, hence we have ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1
---Haz27 on 9/24/12


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\\....the spiritual man or "new man" within us does not sin, but the natural man within us continues to sin.

The word "have" is in present tense, meaning that we still sin.\\
---trey on 9/24/12


Why do you talk as though we have a split personality? Do you think there are two of you in there?

And why is it that to substantiate your beliefs you can only quote one verse at a time? What about context?

Is scriptre simply a book of one-liners? String two or three together if you can. That might come close to finding some context.

Notice that Haz quotes 1John1, verses 2, 3 and 6

One-liner theology doesn't cut it
---James_L on 9/24/12


francis, I got that from your answers. You have said that when a born again, regenerated person, born of the Spirit person dies, he is separated from Christ. I have told many times that it is impossible, because once a person is united to Christ in spiritual baptism, he is never separated from Christ. You say he is. That he is dead or asleep as you call it, somehow waiting, and if he is dead how can he be waiting. He cannot think while dead, or even want anything. So I got that from you and your answers. You must not believe in been one with Christ, the reason you always speak for the letter of the law not the Spirit of the Law.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/12


One must first understand the doctrine of the tripartite man that's made up of the body, soul and spirit. The body that's called the "flesh" is already cursed, "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return", including the Christians. That's why everyone will die.

Peculiar only to the Christian who's born of the Spirit, his once "dead spirit" is made alive by the Spirit of God and this is the part that does not sin nor is corrupted anymore.

The soul, while the sinner still dwells on the earth is then being sanctified by God while still alive in the flesh. The Christian will struggle with his sins, hence Romans 7.

And not everyone will receive the Holy Spirit but the elect of God.
---christan on 9/24/12


Haz, the sin which brought Jesus to earth to die upon the cross was Adam and Eve's rebellion against God's command to them. Sin has a number of expressions including "transgression of the law" as you say but sin is wider than that. Sin is rebellion against God, ignoring God and endeavouring to live as if He does not exist. Remember the Law was not in existence when Adam and Eve sinned so sin cannot be limited to Law breaking.

Your confusion, I believe, comes not from Scripture, but from improper denominational teaching. What denomination do you attend? You do not understand the difference of a life given over to willing, intentional sin, a sinful lifestyle and the sin the saved continue to do. This is what John writes about.
---Warwick on 9/24/12


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Haz, I believe you are only seeing one side of a two sided coin. You are correct that the spiritual man or "new man" within us does not sin, but the natural man within us continues to sin.
The Apostle Paul wrote this:

Rom7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul is telling us that he still has a sin nature.

John said this:
1John1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The word "have" is in present tense, meaning that we still sin.
---trey on 9/24/12


Warwick: Remember we define 'sin' differently.
It's better to trust God instead of Gill. What Gill says is not supported in scripture. BTW, what definition of 'sin' does Gill use in this verse?

And see scriptures before 1John1:8 for context.
1John1:2'Bear witness,and show unto you eternal life'
1John1:3 'declare we unto you that ye also may have fellowship'
1John1:6 'if we say we have fellowship and walk in darkness (without Christ)..."
These verses declare eternal life to unsaved in sin.

I've shown many scriptures confirming each other that we don't sin. You've offered one verse out of context to support your doctrine.

Jesus truly set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7). Don't you believe this?
---Haz27 on 9/23/12


Jesus came to put away sin..to say otherwise is to reject the Gospel. We dont sin because we are freed of it. Sin is of satan. We are of Christ and live in HIM.
---duane on 9/23/12


Haz, as John says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.." 1 John 1:8. Note John includes himself in this.

On 1 John 5:18 Gill comments "nor does he live in sin, or is under the power and dominion of it, though he does not live without it,"

Commenting on 1 John 3:9 Gill says "doth not commit sin, does not make it his trade and business, it is not the constant course of his life, he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it, he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it,.."
---Warwick on 9/23/12


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Warwick. We define 'sin' differently. You define it in behavior terms.
BUT scripture defines 'sin' as:
1: transgression of law (1John 3:4), BUT this does not apply to Christians (Rom 8:2, Rom 3:19, Gal 5:18) and where there's no law there's no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15.
2: Unrighteousness, 1John5:17. BUT we're righteous in Christ, hence no sin.
3:Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. We believe on Jesus hence no sin.

BTW there's many scriptures confirming Christians don't sin. 1John 3:6,9, 1John 5:18, 1Pet 4:1, 1Pet 4:18, Gal 2:15, 1Tim 1:9

People who sin are servants of sin, John 8:34, and of the devil 1John3:8
Why?
They won't submit to the righteousness of God

Remember ONLY PAST sin was forgiven, Rom 3:25
---Haz27 on 9/22/12


Haz, we have been through this before. You quote 1 John 3:9 as if this settles the matter. If the forgiven cannot sin then what does 1 John 2:1 mean "My dear children I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Why would John of all people write "if anybody does sin" if sin were impossible for the forgiven? Why would Jesus speak in our defence if there was nothing to defend?
---Warwick on 9/22/12


The Scriptures do not use sinful nature to describe mans condition.

Sinful nature is a man-made phrase not found in the Bible.

Look and see. In fact, the opposite is true.

It says mans nature is according to God.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

It is not our natures, but our hearts that are corrupted.

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
---Phil on 9/22/12


Romans 7:14-23 as Paul explains he still sins! It is a war, a conflict, of committing the sin even though in his spiritual mind he knows it is wrong and yet does it anyway. Mankind in the flesh will never be sinless. The Lord Jesus by his blood has reconciled us to the Father for past sins. It is remission of past sins only Romans 3:25. Learning to grow in grace and knowledge and overcoming sin is what a Believer is doing in their Christian life because they are to turn away from the sinful life it doesn't mean they are sinless, or can commit sins and be sinless.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/22/12


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Some, not all SDA's followers, suggest that born again Christians lose their sinful nature and become sinless, what do you say and please give Scripture?
---Mark_V. on 9/20/12

No mark_V you must first show where ANY SDA has said that christians lose thier sin nature.

Aurely you MUST have some quote where ANY SDA has said that they lose thier sin nature, otherwise this whole blog is a false accusation

If not then you must appoligize.
---francis on 9/21/12


The term 'sinful nature' is used in Bibles such as NIV.
But other Bibles use the term 'flesh'.

So, do people walk in the flesh/sinful nature once they become Christians? Answer: NO.

Rom 7:5 'For when we WERE (Note it's past tense) in the flesh'

Rom 8:9 'But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit'

Scripture clearly shows that Christians have lost their so called 'sinful nature' if they continue to believe on Jesus.

As 1John 3:9 says, 'Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.'
---Haz27 on 9/21/12


\\I would need to talk with the individual to see what that person means by losing one's "sinful nature" and becoming "sinless".\\
---willie_c: on 9/21/12

Good stuff, willie.

The term "sinful nature" as it is used today is very ambiguous.

there isn't some mystical "nature" that needs to be clouded in ambiguity and never an actuality while we're here.

Believers are a righteous and sinless spirit, being partakers of the divine nature, and a new creation (1John 3:9, 2Cor 5:7)

Clothed in carnal flesh, which is bent on unrighteousness and destruction. (1John 1:8 et al)
---James_L on 9/21/12


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