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Seminary Makes Non Christians

I recently heard of a poll taken of young men entering seminary school and it stated that upon entry 75% believed the bible to the infallible word of God, but upon exit on 25% still believed the bible to be infallible. What are your thoughts? Please give scripture to back your opinion.

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Warwick: As it's ONLY PAST sin that was remitted (Rom 3:25), then this confirms 1Pet 4:1 we've "CEASED from sin", and 1John 3:6-9 we "CANNOT sin".
It confirms Rom 8:33 "Who shall lay anything to charge against God's elect. It is God who justifies".

Christians are NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
To be under the law is to be seeking righteousness by works instead of submitting to God's righteousness. This is sin/rebellion.

We're under a much more glorious ministry, 2Cor 3:7-11.

I've shown many scriptures all confirming each other that Christ truly set us free from sin. Scripture confirms scripture showing we cannot sin as we're born of God.
---Haz27 on 11/3/12


I'll rephrase


//The Holy bible is true..every single word.//

//Every word...which translation?//

Which translations do you see as not true and what do you measure their "untrue" words by?
---michael_e on 11/3/12


Warwick. I didn't say you claim we're saved by works. I said that you seem to mix works and grace together, which cannot be, Rom 11:6.

You say "grace" BUT then you add that if we slip up once too often transgressing the law (that we're NOT under) then we're lost. This is error.

Christians are not judged by the law as we're NOT under it. Hence no charge of sin can be laid against us, Rom 8:33.

As for our behavior, we love one another. If we do wrong God chastises. BUT for those under law it's sin resulting in death.

Under your doctrine the many Christians today in adultery (Mark 10:11,12) are lost as they habitually sin/transgress the law they're not even under. This is contradiction.
---Haz27 on 11/3/12


//What translation(s) do you read that are flawed?//

What does flawed mean? errors? infallable? inerrant?

There are no original manuscripts, all we have are translations.

Flawed and errors seems too strong, however, how does one describe the difference between the Masoretic Text and Septuagint when one says in Genesis 2:2, "God finished His work on the seventh day," and the Septuagint says, "God finished his work on the sixth day?"

//What method do you use to pick out the errors?//

Very carefully, realizing that translations were translated at different times, with biases, different cultural situations, different ways of thinking, different land situations, and different societal settings.
---Rod4Him on 11/3/12


"Paul, in Rom 7, was speaking of the battle between flesh v's spirit. The flesh seeks self-righteousness by works of the law (sin)"
Haz27 on 11/2/12

Absurd.
There are works of the law and works of the spirit (bearing fruit, " But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith"
Sins are physical and or spiritual and often generalized as the works of the flesh. ('Out of the bundance of the heart...')

The law of Moses is not sin to wit Paul declared, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
---Nana on 11/2/12




Haz, I have repeatedly stated we are saved by faith, by God's grace, not law! Clear??? If you again say I believe in salvation by law then you bear false witness.

I again ask can a Christian live contrary to the law i.e bear false witness (as you are doing regarding my clearly, repeatedly stated beliefs)and say they are without sin?

The way you misuse Romans 14:5 has you saying if there is no law we can do what we like. Or are you saying we are now magical robots unable to sin? If so you fail by bearing false witness. In reality the law is now written upon our hearts: we now know the law intuitively but none the less it remains and we cannot, for example, bear false witness and claim we are sinless.
---Warwick on 11/3/12


Warwick. You said: "It seems you believe the law is so done away with it that we can live lawlessly..."

Nobody has ever said being under grace is a license to do wrong. God chastises any who do.

BUT, as for laying a charge of sin, Rom 8:33 says: "Who shall lay ANY charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies".

The charge of sin/transgressing the law CANNOT be made against Christians. Not even "habitual" (whatever that is) sin. We're NOT under the law for righteousness. Our righteousness is by faith.

Note: Christ is the END of the law, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, and where there's NO LAW there's NO TRANSGRESSION/sin, Rom 4:15.
We CANNOT sin because we're born of God, 1john 3:9
---Haz27 on 11/3/12


Haz, you keep testifying, you do not have the truth. You can call your sin something else, but no matter what you call it, in the eyes of God it is still rebellion (sin). What is even worse is that by suggesting you are sinless, you testify you don't have the Truth, and even worse you call God a liar just as (1 John 1:8-10) tells us. The very same John that word the Gospel of John, and the very same one who wrote (1 John 3:9). Everyone else seems to understand, besides you, that you are a sinner saved by Grace if you are even saved. "I keep saying you are saved by grace through faith, and you keep opposing me by saying the Truth is not in you." Ok, I give up.
---Mark_V. on 11/3/12


Warwick,you misunderstand. You confuse behavior/lifestyle for Christians with keeping the law of righteousness.
Rom 4:15 says where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN).
As you recognize Christians are not under the law, then how can you possibly judge a Christian of sin/transgressing the law? The doctrine you support is a contradiction.

BTW, the law IS DONE AWAY with. Rom 10:3 Christ is the END of the law for righteousness.

Either we're righteous by faith OR by works of the law. You seem to be mixing these 2 together which CANNOT be, Rom 11:6

Even the "habitual" sin doctrine has no scriptural support whatsoever and nobody has any idea what "habitual" is. It's clearly error doctrine.
---Haz27 on 11/2/12


HAZ, you have an amazing ability to misunderstand.

Paul was well aware he was saved by the grace of God, and also aware it is the law, which he knew especially well, which defines sin. We are not under the law which does not save, but shows us what sin is, and what sinners we are, and how much we need faith from God, and grace for forgiveness. It seems you believe the law is so done away with it that we can live lawlessly because we are forgiven by grace. You are wrong. Jesus clearly shows us adultery is sin, because the law says so, when he dealt, by grace, with the woman caught in adultery.

BTW when you write 'your under the law' you should correctly write 'you are' or you're, not 'your' a totally different word.
---Warwick on 11/2/12




Warwick. Agreed, "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

BUT, what you need to understand is EITHER your under the law for righteousness by works OR your righteousness is by faith. You CAN'T mix them, Rom 11:6.

Paul, in Rom 7, was speaking of the battle between flesh v's spirit. The flesh seeks self-righteousness by works of the law (sin), which is NOT submitting to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:4.
BUT, when we are in Christ we have submitted to God's righteousness, by faith (and cannot sin).

EITHER you walk in the flesh OR the Spirit.
Christians walk in the Spirit so we're righteous in Christ, perfected, holy, sanctified and cannot sin (as scriptures confirm).
---Haz27 on 11/2/12


Haz Jesus said "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." I am not saying we are UNDER LAW, but under grace, but Jesus says the law still stands. We can't live contrary to it and claim to be Christ's followers. Paul's struggle with sin (the law defines sin) is not out of context as he writes as a man saved by grace. John addressed this saying we Christians who sin can be forgiven-1 John 2:1. We are not yet perfected and can sin, but being under grace can be forgiven. This does not apply to a life given over to constant, intentional habitual sin. But we all know what we should do, but fail.
---Warwick on 11/2/12


Mark V. You misunderstand scriptures.
Your persistent failure to justify your "habitual" sin doctrine, having no scriptural support for it, only confirms this.

Your reference to Paul's alleged struggle (Rom 7) is out of context too. Note Rom 7:7-13 speaking of transgressing the law/sin. This means being UNDER THE LAW.
BUT, Christians are NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18), so Rom 7 is NOT referring to Christians still sinning, as you wrongly claim.

Rom 7:6 & 25 tells us Christians are DELIVERED. If we're DELIVERED from the law then why are you still judging Christians by it?

Your doctrine with it's "habitual" sin part, is mixing works and grace. This cannot be (Rom 11:6).
---Haz27 on 11/2/12


Haz, it is you who does not understand the passages correctly. You say:

"We're dead by faith. Don't you believe this?"

We are not by faith, we are dead because of sin as the passage in (Romans 8:10) indicates. Just as I told you, that the body will die because of sin, it begins to die when we are physically born because of sin. The body is unredeemed and dead because of sin. (Romans 6:6) does say that our old man was crucified with Christ (meaning the believers unregenerate self.) He is now born of the Spirit, has a new disposition. Paul had the problem of fighting with his body. His new disposition wanted to do good, but his body told him otherwise. He was freed from sin, in that he was no longer a slave to it.
---Mark_V. on 11/2/12


//Every word...which translation?//

What translation(s) do you read that are flawed?

What method do you use to pick out the errors?
---michael_e on 11/2/12


//The Holy bible is true..every single word.//

Every word...which translation?
---Rod4Him on 11/1/12


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\\If one is not saved...born again...they are indeed sinners.\\
---shira4368

Can you explain what born again means and how it happens? I'm not talking about the characteristics of one who is born again, but the actuality of it. What is it, how does it happen?


\\The Holy bible is true..every single word.\\
---shira4368

So do you believe the part which says that whoever is born of God cannot sin?
---James_L on 11/1/12


Mark V. You said: "your body will die. It is sinful".

As Christians we walk by faith, NOT by sight. And "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", Heb 11:1.

If your a Christian who should be walking by faith, then why do you ignore the following scriptures and need to see it physically before you believe?

Our old man is crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.

The body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10

I'm crucified with Christ, I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20

He that is dead is freed from sin, Rom 6:7

We're dead by faith. Don't you believe this?
---Haz27 on 11/1/12


Rod4him, the infallible word of God, is talking about the original manuscripts. Not the millions of interpreations of it. If for one second we believe they contain errors then no one would know which part to believe. Jesus quoted many passages from the Old Testament. Groups who begin questioning the validity of small details of Scripture eventually question larger doctrines as well. If we begin with the presupposition that Scripture does contain errors, and then find an apparent discrepancy between two or more texts, we many decide that one or both of them contain errors. And if we begin with the presupposition that Scripture does not contain errors, we are motivated to find an exegetically justifiable way of resolving any seeming discreptancy.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/12


shira4368, you misunderstand me. I do agree with you. The unsaved are sinners. They sin, which makes them a "servant of sin" (John 8:34) and "of the devil" (1John 3:8)

BUT, Christians are NOT sinners. Christ set us free from sin (John 8:36). We've "CEASED from sin" (1Pet 4:1), "CANNOT sin" (1John 3:6-9), and are holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and righteous, in Christ.

Mark V. Now you claim that when the Bible says we're "saints" it's really not saying we are "saints"? Can you can show scripture to support this view?
Also, you still haven't explained what determines "habitual" sin, yet. Please give scripture to back your view.
---Haz27 on 11/1/12


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Haz, I told you before and say it again, the Bible in order to distinguish between the saved and the lost uses the word sinners to identify thos without Christ, and those who are justified. It does not mean believers don't sin, only that in Scripture they are not identifed as sinners to make a distinction so that we as readers know who the writer is speaking of. They are not in bondage of sin, they have been freed. The word saint is also used for all believers, and no one is a real saint. They are identified as saints so we can know they are of God. No one is perfect or without sin, not you or I, not in this life that is why your body will die. It is sinful.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/12


haz, I can't believe you think sinners can't sin. If one is not saved...born again...they are indeed sinners. The Holy bible is true..every single word.
---shira4368 on 11/1/12


Mark V. You said in another blog, "sinners in Scripture are considered lost. They are spiritually separated from God."

TRUE!
It's good that you recognize that Christians are NOT sinners. And this is confirmed in such scriptures as:
1John 3:6-9 we "cannot sin"
1Pet4:1 we have "ceased from sin"
as well as 1Pet 4:18, Rom 6:7, Rom 6:2, John 8:36, Gal 2:15, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 8:33, Heb 10:2....
---Haz27 on 10/31/12


Mark V. 1John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us", is the ONE and ONLY scripture you use (out of context) for your doctrine. You can't make doctrine from ONE verse.

As you think 1John 1:8 refers to Christians, lets consider what "sin" it might speak of.
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9? No.
Blasphemy of HS, Mark 3:29? No.
Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17? No, as we're righteous in Christ.
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4? No, as we're not under it, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, and where there's no law there's no transgression, Rom 4:15.

Christians don't do any of these sins. Also, when you consider the evangelical context of 1John 1, it's clear it speaks to unbelievers.
---Haz27 on 10/31/12


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Haz, you can argue every passage you want and it will not change the fact that the Word of God says,
"If we say (and you do say) we have no sin, we deceived ourselves ( you are deceived) and the Truth is not in us" The Truth is Christ, and you still claim you have no sin. So what is the conclusion? That you are deceived. Why? Because there is no truth in you. Nothing where you need humeneutics. And the same John who wrote (3:9) said, "If we say we have not sinned (You say you don't) we make Him a liar, and the Truth is not in us" You claim you don't sin, you call God a liar.
---Mark_V. on 10/31/12


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---ELENA on 10/30/12


Mark V, you misunderstand scripture.
Heb 10:10, 14 says Christians ARE sanctified, by ONE offering. Your suggestion that the offering/crucifixion is a continual offering/crucifixion that sanctifies us by a process, is error and contradicts that Christ's offering was ONCE ONLY and COMPLETE (not a continual process/offering similar to the OT offering of bulls/goats). By Christ's ONE offering there's NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS, Heb 10:2

Your description of "habitual" is ambiguous and doesn't answer my question. As you claim "habitual" sin applies to those who are lost then its important we know what determines "habitual". Jesus said to forgive 7x70. Is this the limit that determines "habitual"?
---Haz27 on 10/30/12


Haz, the word habitual sin, is the state in which everyone who is lost is. That is his state, in bondage to sin, and he cannot do otherwise. All believer are freed from bondage of sin. It does not mean they do not sin anymore, only that they are free now from that bondage. (Heb. 10:14) "For by one offering, (not two but One) He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." They are not completely sanctified yet, they are been sanctified and will be forever. (1 John 3:9) if interpreted the way you believe, that no believer sins, then John contradicted himself in (1 John 1:8-10) because "if you claim you have no sin, you deceive yourself and the Truth is not in you"
---Mark_V. on 10/30/12


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Mark V. Unfortunately your comments bear no relevance to the scriptures you quoted.
I noticed your post in the blog "To hear from God" where you said we should have spiritual ears to hear. And how do we do that? The anointing (Christ) within us teaches us all things so we do not need that any man teach us (1John 2:27).

I also noted that you spoke of "habitual" sin. Can you explain what is "habitual". Is it 7x70? and what is your definition of sin? Scripture to support your claim too, please
---Haz27 on 10/30/12


Mark V. You misunderstand James 1. "perfect" in this context refers to maturity.
BUT, this is not the same "perfect" as Heb 10:14 speaks of saying "By one offering he has PERFECTED FOR EVER..."
With Christ in us we have "ceased" from sin (1Pet 4:1), "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), we're holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected and righteous. You deny these scriptures yet can't justify your doctrine.

If your old physical man is dead/crucified and your a new spiritual creation in Christ, then why do you continue to see yourself as the old physical man sinning/transgressing the law (that Christians are not under anyway)? The physical man does not have the spiritual hearing.
---Haz27 on 10/30/12


Haz, again, you say,
" And scripture tells us that we can ask this of God James 1:5. As we have no need for anyone to teach us because Christ in us does this (1John 2:27), why would you not accept His teaching directly"
The passage in (1 John 2:27) concerns the third characteristic of antichrist mentioned in (v.16) is that they try to deceive the faithful. John is not denying the importance of gifted teachers in the Church (1 Cor. 12:28: Eph. 4:11) but indicates that neither those teachers nor those believers are dependent on human wisdom or the opinions of men for the truth. God's Holy Spirit guards the true believer into the truth (v.20,21). Why don't you understand what the passages are talking about?
---Mark_V on 10/30/12


Mark V. I have shown you how 1John 3:6-9 and 1John 1:8-10 do not contradict each other.

BUT, more to the point is the fact that your doctrine is based on ONE scripture (1John 1:8-10) which you take out of context and therefore you make it contradict 1John 3:6-9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, 1Pet 4:18, John 8:36,...

I agree we need teaching. And scripture tells us that we can ask this of God James 1:5. As we have no need for anyone to teach us because Christ in us does this (1John 2:27), why would you not accept His teaching directly?
---Haz27 on 10/29/12


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Haz 2: and then you give (James 1:5) where James is teaching the believers from the twelve tribes who were scattered, believers because he called them brethren to let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete" meaning they were not perfect and complete. Otherwise why would he be teaching them? Then he says,
"if anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God" meaning there was those believers who lack wisdom otherwise why tell them? Those believers needed teaching and wisdom just like you and I do. We are not perfect Haz, never will be in this life. What you want is to sin, and not call it sin. You cannot have it that way, sin is sin, no matter how you color it.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/12


Assuming infallible means without error, what does that mean?

Which translation is infallible? Septuagint, Masoretic, King James, Living Bible...or which?
---Rod4Him on 10/30/12


Haz, you have not shown that John was wrong when he said, in (1 John 1:8-10). what you really said is that John contradicted his own statements. And the word of God does not contradict. If John first said, the truth is not in you, if you claim you don't sin, and then turns around in (1 John 3:9) and says otherwise, then you have a serious problem in undersanding Truth. (v. 3:9) in the context is talking about the seed that remains in you, He cannot sin because He has been born of God, and conveys the idea of habitual sin. You tell me, why would he contradict his own words that the Truth is not in you? If the seed is in you, you have the Truth, the Word. Just like those believers in the early church needed teaching, so do believers.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/12


Mark V. Scripture confirms scripture. In regards to 1John 1:8-10, have you noticed that is the ONLY scripture you use to support your doctrine? Doctrine based on ONE scripture, taken out of context, is clearly error.

I've shown you how you have used 1John 1:8-10 out of context. I have also shown many other scriptures all confirming each other that in Christ we have ceased from sin.

But, it's God who gives us the understanding. I pray one day you will be open to receive God's teaching. Ask of God and trust Him for it, James 1:5.
BTW, it took me some years before I was ready to receive it too.
---Haz27 on 10/29/12


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Haz, if you need no teaching, why do you not understand the passages in (1 John 1:8-10)?
"If we say that we have no sin, (that's what you say) we deceive ourselves, (hear this) and the Truth is not in you" Seems to me that if you do not admit sin in you, you are deceived and the truth is not in you. you insist you are sinless. How can you be sinless if the truth is not in you? Do you even know who the Truth is? Jesus Christ is the Truth. What you really needed and still need is for someone to teach you how to interpret something so simple.
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" You lie, (that is sin) the Word is in you. He is the Word.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/12


Mark V. It's interesting that in seminaries most come out disillusioned about the Bible. Likewise with the many different teachings coming out of the many different churches and Bible colleges.

Jesus said there is ONE fold and ONE shepherd, John 10:16. He's our one and only shepherd and he feeds/teaches us. We have the mind of Christ and this gives us understanding of scriptures, if we trust in him for it.

Many don't trust however, and trust instead in man and Bible colleges, etc for teaching.

But God says: "If any of you lack wisdom, LET HIM ASK OF GOD...and it shall be given him", James 1:5. Hence we do not need anyone to teach us as Christ in us gives us the understanding, 1John 2:27.
---Haz27 on 10/28/12


Haz, when you read a passage you don't read it correctly. Jesus Himself gave believers, teachers, pastors etc. for the equiping of the saints. I gave you the passage (Eph 4:11,12). When you read the passage you gave, who was speaking? John, and what was he doing, teaching them. They needed to be taught about the Spirit. How else would they know about the Spirit?
Second, we do not have the mind of God to know the secrets of God? No one does. You don't know who is saved and who is not, you have no clue when the Second Coming is going to be, the date or hour, so you do not have the mind of God in that sense. You have the thoughts of God through illumination, but not everything. As the passages concerning sin, you take all passages literally.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/12


Mark V. It's not I who said "we don't need teachers" and "we have the mind of God".

Read what God said:

"YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACHES YOU" 1John2:27

"But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST" 1Cor 2:16

"the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall FEED them" Rev 7:17

"HE shall FEED his flock like a shepherd" Isa 40:11

"and there shall be ONE fold, and ONE shepherd" John 10:16.

As for man as shepherd/teacher:
"the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock" Eze 34:8
"they are shepherds that cannot understand" Isa 56:11

Trust God, not man.


---Haz27 on 10/27/12


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//Bible colleges/seminaries teach error/confusion.//

Is that something like, "Don't confusion me with the facts?"
---Rod4Him on 10/27/12


Haz, You seem to imply we don't need teachers and most of all suggest we have the mind of God to know all.
Through illumination of the word the Holy Spirit provides His saints the capacity to discern divine truth (Ps.119:18) which the spiritually dead are unable to comprehend (John 5:37-39). The doctrine of illumination does not mean we know everything (Deut. 29:29) "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of the law" Secret things of God are not revealed to us.
Second. we do need teachers, (Eph. 4:11,12) God gave apostles, prophets, evengelist, and pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/12


"don't get tied up in all the Theological rhetoric."
---Tom_Zegan_CCHt.

Good advice.
Bible colleges/seminaries teach error/confusion.

God says:
"you do not need that anyone teach you, but as THE SAME ANOINTING TEACHES YOU concerning all things, and is true" 1John2:27

Confirmed in Gal 1:11
"the gospel which was preached by me is NOT ACCORDING TO MAN. For I NEITHER RECEIVED IT FROM MAN ,NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Eph 1:17. "the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened"

We have the mind of Christ 1Cor 2:12-16
---Haz27 on 10/26/12


//If Jesus knew inerrancy was false but taught otherwise, He was guilty of deception and could not be a sinless being.//

What does "inerrancy" mean and which translation is "inerrant?"

//Had Scripture originated with man, then cultural conditioning and human error would certainly be a factor to be reckoned with,//

The Bible is certainly written in a historical and cultural context.
---Rod4Him on 10/25/12


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Trey, all Scripture is God-breathed." No Old Testament prophet, nor Jesus Christ, nor any New Testament writer gives any support on the idea that the portains of Scripture having to do with space-time events contain errors. Had Scripture originated with man, then cultural conditioning and human error would certainly be a factor to be reckoned with, However, Scripture affirms that "prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). Adding to this teachings of Numbers 23:19),
"God is not a man, that He should lie"
If Jesus knew inerrancy was false but taught otherwise, He was guilty of deception and could not be a sinless being.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/12


//God is well able to preserve His revelations of Himself to us.//

True, but the blog had to do with "the infallible Word of God," which needs to be defined to discuss that issue.

//The so-called "Old Testament" parchments and vellums unearthed have not varied by any significant degree.//

It may be nick-picky, but even Augustine greatly disagreed with Jerome because Jerome was translating Hebrew into Latin rather than using Greek which Augustine thought had many differences between the two, there were, but as you infer, not in doctrine issues.

There are many variations between Hebrew and Greek (LXX). Genesis 2:2 is one example.
---Rod4Him on 10/25/12


---Rod4Him on 10/24/12 "What does "without error mean?"

God is well able to preserve His revelations of Himself to us. The so-called "Old Testament" parchments and vellums unearthed have not varied by any significant degree. All have remained true word for word , despite the many scribes and copyists who had a hand in preserving them.

The same holds true for the ancient Greek manuscripts of the NT. The three oldest Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus, all mirror one another with few variations other than editorial notes.

Study with a Greek interlinear and a concordance are essential to be approved unto God.

No modern version is reliable.
---Phil on 10/25/12


trey,ok, what does without error mean? I am not trying to be difficult, however, when one learns some of the sequence of Bible translation, there is an inherent element in the process that causes an interpreter to translation either "word for word" or "sense for sense."

All this is to say, in some defense of those who learn more of the history of the Bible, that definitions of words, infallible, without error, and inerrant, seem to cause confusion when some say "the Bible is infallible," verses "the Bible is the Word of God," or similar sayings. Heaven forbid one says, "the Bible contains the Word of God."

What does "without error mean?"
---Rod4Him on 10/24/12


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Rod, I would define it as without error.
---trey on 10/23/12


trey...How would you define "infallible?"
---Rod4Him on 10/23/12


The bible is not infallible and the young men/women in seminary school have learned how it was put together and who chose which books would go into the bible. They have also learned that there is no way to know for sure who wrote some of those books and letters in the bible or when they were written.

Some of them lose faith and others just dig in deeper to find the Truth. The Truth can only be found in the Words of Jesus to His eyewitness disciples who were promised The Holy Spirit in John 14:26. The disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20:20-23.

Also see Jeremiah 8:8-9.












---barb on 10/23/12


It would have to be false teachers! False and corrupt teachers....."My people have become lost sheep, Their shepherds have led them astray" [condensed] Jer.50:6..."Let them alone, they are blind leading the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit" [Matt. 15:14]... "Cursed be the one who does the Lord's work negligently. And cursed be the one who restrans his sword from blood" [Jer. 48:10]. Thank You Jesus for all your help+
---pat on 10/23/12


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People go to Bible college's and seminaries to study the Bible. When people are told that the Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God they only set themselves up for failure and disapointment.

I spent two years in one of the most prestigious Bible Colleges in American only to come out with more questions than I came in with and most of my original questions couldn't be answered. Later I received my Masters in Early Church History.

So what did I do? I prayed "God I believe in You!" and I went back to the basics that God Loves me and that Jesus died for my sins. Any questions?

Stick to the basics and don't get tied up in all the Theological rhetoric. Rev. Tom Zegan CCHt.
---Tom_Zegan_CCHt. on 10/23/12


StongAxe,
you make a valid point, but...

trey mentioned an "old conservative Baptist preacher" who was probably referencing data from 30-50 years ago.

The Southern Baptist Convention was rife with liberalism in the seminaries.

MidWestern Batist Teological Seminary in Kansas City (where I live) was one of the worst. From this seminary, a book "The Message Of Genesis" by Ralph Elliott came in 1959 through the Convention's own publishing house.

Conservatives were going into seminary and literally being ambushed by a liberal faculty.

This went on through the 1970s and 80s

Many older Baptists believe our seminaries are still this way
---James_L on 9/29/12


Such statistics can be very misleading. They say nothing about what percentage of those who DIDN'T go to seminary but ALSO lost their faith nontheless. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

More people die in hospitals than outside them. One could conclude from this simple statements that hospitals are dangerous to your health - rather than the truth, that is people go to hospitals BECAUSE they are sick, and hospitals increase their chance of survival when they are.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/12


Follower: pg1 is right. If so many people fail to believe the Word after their seminary experience, it is not the seminary's fault. The people I know who finished seminary told of how rigorous it was, as well as challenging to their faith. The problem is that those who enter were not meant to serve in the ministry of the Word. Better they crash and burn in seminary, than while in ministry here or abroad.
---Trish on 9/27/12


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Follower of Christ,
I respectively disagree with your statements. I attended one of the top Seminaries in my region. Seminary is not for everyone. I tell people who are considering Seminary to make sure God called them to the task because it is not what most people think. It is an academic and spiritual experience which pushes you beyond your limited understanding of Scripture and Christianity. It will challenge your faith and your Theology and that it not necessarily a bad thing. If you fall by the wayside upon entering Seminary then your faith was not stable to begin with because God keeps those whom He calls to the task.
---pg1 on 9/27/12


Apology accepted, Samuel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/12


I apoligize Cluny apperently I was reading into your words something that you say was not there.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/26/12


on earth as it is in heaven?
there are those ordained by God,there are those ordained by men,on earth as it is in heaven....
---kevin5443 on 9/26/12


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The purpose of seminary is to prepare future ministers for ministry, either in the U.S. or on foreign soil. Another purpose of seminary is to weed out the people who would not make good ministers for Christ because of a weakness in faith. Ministry is not for those weak in faith, or lacking in the ability to back up their beliefs with God's Word.

I am skeptical of this statistic, and wonder how the poll was written. Could you give the source of the poll, so I can look it up and see if I can read the actual question asked was worded.

At the very least, I wonder just how deep the faith of the respondents was in the Word of God.
---Trish on 9/26/12


the seminary is man made institution teaching religion about God which is very different than following the Lord Jesus.

75% believe the bible to be trustworthy upon entering and only 25% still believe the bible to be trustworthy upon exit shows you that Satans ministers of light are the ones who lead the seminary and the seminary is without the Lord Jesus. The seminary does not teach about the Lord Jesus Gods word does. The seminary teaches rebellion against the Lord if 50% of those who once believed the bible was trustworthy no longer do because they are taught by the seminary to discredit and malign the word of God. The seminary does its job in furthering the work of Satan.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/26/12


\\Cluny, please explain your last comment. Also please give me scripture to back up your statement.\\

Gladly.

"You search the scriptures, for in them you THINK you have eternal life, yet they testify of ME, but you will NOT come to ME so that you may have life."

Yes, the KJV puts this in the imperative, other versions put it in the indicative. The Greek can mean either.

In other words, you can nit-pick your way through the Bible and miss Jesus and His Resurrection.

**Yet you Cluny say that JESUS did not believe we are to follow every word that came out of his mouth to his prophets.
---Samuelbby on 9/25/12**

That is not what I said. Go back and read it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/12


Amazing Cluny. JESUS quoted Scripture constantly and used the phrase it is written over 20 times. He also said:Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Yet you Cluny say that JESUS did not believe we are to follow every word that came out of his mouth to his prophets.
---Samuelbby on 9/25/12


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Cluny, please explain your last comment. Also please give me scripture to back up your statement.

Thanks,
---trey on 9/25/12


I've pointed out many times that devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of faith in Christ.

Jesus said so Himself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/25/12


I have been associated with two seminaries that cannot be described as "cemetaries", SES Southern Evangelical Seminary and the Fire School of Ministry.

Neither of these institutions are dead or drying up, both encourage Christian Apologetics, and both encourage outspoken witnessing to the culture around us.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/12


trey,
This issue of infallibility and inerrancy is not a new one, though. If your scource is a Southern Baptist, he could be referencing info from as far back as the 1960s or 1970s

An article written by Paige Patterson:
Anatomy of a Reformation

From a conservative perspective, the Conservative Resurgence within the Southern Baptist Convention, which began about 35 years ago.

THE primary issue was inerrancy of scripture.

Virtually every "Southern Baptist" seminary professor at that time doubted the inerrancy of scripture
---James_L on 9/24/12


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Cluny,

Those are good questions. I heard about the statistics and the poll from an old conservative baptist preacher friend of mine, who was grieved when he read the statistics. I'm not sure where the school is or how many that were polled.

The real point of the discussion is that I believe that we as Christians should believe that the word of God is infallible.

I was also grieved when I heard how the profs were tainting the beliefs of these young christians and causing them to doubt the word of God.
---trey on 9/24/12


\\Some who enter seminary have a head knowledge but don't have the heart knowledge of God.\\

That can be said for a lot of people who post here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/12


That's why GOD calls most of today's Seminaries "Cemetaries". Modern "christian" Semitaries are graveyards full of dead bodies and dried-up bones. I.e. They are spiritually DEAD.
---Gordon on 9/24/12


well, i rarely ever meet a teacher whom does not hold to liberal viewpoints.

a liberal viewpoint will produce a liberal viewpoint.

and often people are educated beyond their ability to learn or understand.....
---chip on 9/24/12


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Some who enter seminary have a head knowledge but don't have the heart knowledge of God. There have been long time Pastors who realized they weren't even saved and had been teaching and preaching the Word of God without the Power of God. Perhaps that is what happens to some of those who change for head faith is shallow and heart faith runs deeper and is not so easily changed. It is like the seeds which fall on good ground and grow and the ones which are planted in bad ground and die,Luke 5:11-15.
---Darlene_1 on 9/24/12


1. Who did this poll?

2. What seminaries were polled?

3. How many?

4. How were the questions framed?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/12


MOST believers would have a narrow-minded opinion of the "25%".

You'll notice that the 25% is rejecting the last 1950 years of perditious teachings.

Why do you reject the idea that God SENT THEM to expose the lies and encourage/inspire us all to seek the REAL truth? (a kinder, gentler message about God)....is it a LACK OF FAITH that God would do such a thing?.....Since I began writing on this forum, I have exposed many false teachings and misunderstandings.

...not to say that they should recieve any special treatment or be regarded as prophets. They are just as fallible as any of us...some will be charlatans...a TRIAL for the sincere). This trial will "shake" out the insincere (Hebrews 12:27).
---more_excellent_way on 9/24/12


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