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Did The Apostles Do Wrong

Did the Apostles err at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 when they decreed that Gentile believers need not become circumcised or observe the Law of Moses?

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 ---elee7537 on 9/27/12
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---Nana on 10/3/12
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?

---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/12
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Exodus 20:5 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

you want mercy KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS
---francis on 10/3/12


The burden he spoke of concerned the whole law
---Nana on 10/3/12

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus saith the LORD, Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day,

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work,

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath,... my holy day, and call the sabbath a delight,

Where or what exactly is the burden in resting from work on the 7th day?

See what satan has done to you, he causes you to call what God calls a DELIGHT a burden
---francis on 10/3/12


Acts 15:5_7 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren,..."

Peter was addressing "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

The burden he spoke of concerned the whole law including circumcision. Are you reading with colored glasses?
---Nana on 10/3/12


Jerry, again promoting the Law, and promoting Saturday Sabbath. Give it up. You said,

"MarkV: The Bible clearly commands the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. What day of the week do YOU think that is? If you don't know, look it up!"

You are right on the first part only you forgot to say it commanded Israel to observe the seventh day Sabbath. I did look it up. The Jews worship on the seventh day because they did not have the Holy Spirit, so they set aside one day for worship.
As for me, I worship the Lord everyday. Here is why, because Christ lives in me. Everyday He is my Lord, I don't set aside one day only, I do it everyday. You must be missing the Spirit of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/3/12


Let's examine all the reason people have given for not keeping the sabbath:
---francis on 10/3/12

I feel sad for you Francis.

Your understanding of our Heavenly Father must be of an angry, judgmental, and vengeful God who will pour down wrath on everyone who break His commandments.

The real Heavenly Father desires mercy, is longsuffering, full of kindness, love, and grace. He works things for our good and every good thing we ever get comes from Him.

With this Heavenly Father in mind, I can see that His commandments are given in love, for our good. Not to beat us over the head with, but to keep us out of trouble and to give us the most satisfying life possible.

I hope you find loving Heavenly Father.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/12




Let's examine all the reason people have given for not keeping the sabbath:

Gentile believers need not observe laws that were distinctly Jewish
---elee75m37 on 9/27/12

The 10 commandments are not paramount
---elee7537 on 9/28/12

The Forth Commandment of the Ten does not say Saturday is the Sabbath, it says to keep the Sabbath.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12


Christians would have not wanted to be identified with the Jews, hence they sought out a different day
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/12

The day is OUR day. The day is MY day... who say what day of the week it must be,
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12

FAITH in Jesus Christ is the end of the law for the Christian.
---christan on 10/2/12
---francis on 10/3/12


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

What is that all about that Peter is saying francis?
---Nana on 10/3/12
1: Peter was speaking about circumcision ( which is not a burden, people still circumcise to this day)
2: God never placed any burdens on the fathers Deuteronomy 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers....
3: The sabbath is not a burden, Isaiah 58:13...the sabbath,.. my holy day,...the sabbath a delight,
4: the fault was never with God's laws but with the people
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them,
---francis on 10/3/12


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

What is that all about that Peter is saying francis?
---Nana on 10/3/12


Sabbath, forbidden acts:
Sowing/Plowing/Reaping/Binding sheaves/Threshing/Winnowing/Selecting
Grinding/Sifting/Kneading/Baking/Shearing wool/Washing wool/Beating wool
--Nana on 10/2/12

Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day,.... not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

it is a shadow of the reality in Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12
Scriptures show the high priest, lamb, veil as shadows of Jesus, Itshows the feast days such as day of atonement as times of christ work for us,

It show us continuing to keep sabbath in NT and in heaven WITH christ
Isaiah 66 22-23. SO the sabbath canot be a shadow
---francis on 10/3/12


Sabbath 7th day, blessed by God and made for the benefit of man NEVER gave any man authority to change it.
---francis on 10/2/12

I did not change it.

Jesus enlightened us to the reality of the Sabbath. God's reality of the Sabbath. We understood it only partially and dimly before. Remember, it is a shadow of the reality in Jesus.

What reality? That we are called to liberty, not the Law. I am called to serve God and others thru love not obedience to the law.

BTW, your quote above is your opinion. The Sabbath was made for man, not for the benefit of man. Read the Scripture again. You are reading your understanding into them.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12




Paul's message was unacceptable to most Jewish believers [Ac 21:20-21].

Thousands of Jewish believers did not accept Paul's Gospel of grace, yet died for their faith.

Many fell away to destruction as well:

Hb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit, and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age, having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation.

Only a remnant of those thousands were truly Isaac's seed, according to faith. The rest backslid, the Kingdom failing to appear.

James and the others acknowledged Paul's message. They could see ahead to Israel's failure.
---Phil on 10/2/12


What has happened here is very simple. You joined a denomination without first being taught completely what it is you should do after receiving Jesus as saviour.

So now you are in a denomination that teaches you to keep only 9/10 commandments although they ALL say that we should keep the Ten Commandments. they give you unbiblical reasons for not keeping the sabbath.

I was raised Catholic. Once I heard about the TEN COMMANDMENTS, I knew at age 14 that i should be keeping all ten

I want to urgue everyone in here to stop fooing yourself:
Keep all ten commandments as you know you should.

This may mean leaving your current denomination, but God says: 2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate,
---francis on 10/2/12


Mark_Eaton, YAHUSHUA never "broke the Sabbath". He came to FULFILL the Law. He lived out the Law PERFECTLY. He lived in obedience to GOD's Laws the way that GOD has always wanted for mankind to! The "Works" that YAHUSHUA did were "Good Works". They were Works of Miracles. He NEVER EVER worked at a job for money or for free on the Sabbath! It was okay to rescue an animal to save it's life. It was okay to pluck an apple from a tree, or heads of grain to eat, but, NOT okay to laborously gather food for a meal (EXODUS 16:23)! The meaning of "works on the Sabbath" was twisted by the Pharisees to find fault with YAHUSHUA! But, the Pharisees were LIARS and FALSE ACCUSERS like their father the Devil(JOHN 8:44)!
---Gordon on 10/2/12


Many people think that they are Christians, but they are not. What they are are protestant, protesting some of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
t is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible." (Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society, 1975, Chicago, Illinois)
---francis on 10/2/12


Sabbath, forbidden acts:
Sowing/Plowing/Reaping/Binding sheaves/Threshing/Winnowing/Selecting
Grinding/Sifting/Kneading/Baking/Shearing wool/Washing wool/Beating wool
...
Curing hide/Scraping hide/Cutting hide up/Writing two letters/Erasing two letters/Building/Tearing a building down
Extinguishing a fire/Kindling a fire/Hitting with a hammer/Taking an object from the private domain to the public, or transporting an object in the public domain.

No wonder Peter said:
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
---Nana on 10/2/12


The day is OUR day. The day is MY day. The restrictions placed upon it by others, such as you,
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12
WHICH DAY IS your day?
How did you pick it?
What do you call it?
how did you distinguish it from all other days?
What restriction have I placed on YOUR day? ( keep in mind I have No idea when YOUR DAY IS)

Here is what I know:
1: Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God
2: Exodus 20:11 the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
3: Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath,..on my holy day
4: Exodus 20:10 in it thou shalt not do any work
---francis on 10/2/12


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On the authority of Jesus. Jesus said clearly that the Sabbath is made for man.

The day is OUR day.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12

Sabbath made for man, does not say that man can change it.

Sabbath 7th day, blessed by God and made for the benefit of man NEVER gave any man authority to change it. Now where in scripture is such a change?


the day is our day: No!! it is as God calls it: Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

No texts says Jewish abbath, gentile Sabbath, or Christian sabbath

it is always the sabbath of the LORD thy God Or as John wrote it The Lord's day
---francis on 10/2/12


For the sake of religious man's TRADITIONS, they make the Word and the Commandments of GOD of "none effect"!
---Gordon on 10/2/12

I am not twisting the Scriptures. Jesus did work on the Sabbath and did not sin. How do you explain that? We ALL see dimly as through a glass.

It is for the sake of your religion that you are judging me about the fourth commandment.

Seems to me I read something about that in the Scriptures:

Col 2:16-17 " So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12


Mark_Eaton, That is a twisting of the meaning of "...the Sabbath was made for man." The "Sabbath was made for man." simply means that it was created for man's benefit as a DAY OF REST from normal labours and to enjoy more than usual the Fellowship with GOD and the other Believers without the common distractions that we usually partake of on a daily basis. The "Sabbath was made for man" does NOT mean that man was given some kind of "authority" to change the day of the Sabbath. Many of the Sunday Church refuses to acknowledge the Sabbath because it cuts into their cherished week-ends. For the sake of religious man's TRADITIONS, they make the Word and the Commandments of GOD of "none effect"!
---Gordon on 10/2/12


Mark V., While under the Law we could not possibly obey that Law because of our sin nature. The desire to sin was too strong as our sin nature was to gravitate towards satisfying our fleshly nature and our selfish desires. But, through the Person and Blood of YAHUSHUA, we have access to GOD's Grace that ENABLES US TO, now, obey HIS Commandments. Without the shedding of Blood, our sins could not have been cleansed away, and we could not have obtained a "clean slate" to start over again and to learn to keep and obey HIS holy Commands.
---Gordon on 10/2/12


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On whose authority did they change from the sabbath day to the first day.
---francis on 10/1/12

On the authority of Jesus. Jesus said clearly that the Sabbath is made for man.

The day is OUR day. The day is MY day. The restrictions placed upon it by others, such as you, who say what day of the week it must be, whether can I work, whether I can light a fire, what I can eat, are null and void so long as I rest, continue to remember it, and keep it holy unto the Lord.

Why is this so hard to understand?

If I gave you an auto and told you it was my auto and you could not drive it on Saturday, you would probably not drive it on Saturday. If I later told you it was your auto, would you drive it on Saturdays?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/12


*************

MarkV: The Bible clearly commands the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. What day of the week do YOU think that is? If you don't know, look it up!

*****************

---jerry6593 on 10/2/12


Gordon,
In Scripture Grace as a principle is contrasted with Law as a principle. (John 1:17: Rom. 6:14,15).
"Under the Law God demands righteousness" No one could keep the law.
"Under Grace God bestown righteousness" (Rom. 3:21-24: 8:3,4: Gal. 2:16: Phil. 1:9).
If "Saturday" Sabbath is made a Law, they are living under the Law, you break one you broken them all. Our salvation is not by works but by Grace. The Law connects Moses and works, Grace ties in with Christ and faith (John 1:17) Under Law Obedience brings blessings (Deut. 28:1-14). Under Grace blessings are bestowed as a free gift. Jesus sets us free from the Yoke of the Law that condemns those without Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/2/12


According to Rabbical tradition, no one could observe the Sabbath or any of the Jewish feasts without first becoming circumcised.
---elee7537 on 10/2/12


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Mark_Eaton, They should have recognized that those Jews were right in obeying the Sabbath, but, that THAT in itself does not bring someone into Salvation. One can strive to obey all of the Commandments but it does no good without receiving the Blood Atonement of YAHUSHUA (JESUS). The Orthodox Jews reject YAHUSHUA as Messiah, even though they think they are "right with GOD" because they keep Sabbath. No. First one accepts YAHUSHUA and then, one keeps Sabbath. The Church that split from the Roman Catholic Church should have gotten back into GOD's (7th Day) Sabbath. But, it's understood that Martin Luther was anti-semitic to a degree. That would explain much of the Protestant Church's rejection of the true Sabbath.
---Gordon on 10/1/12


Why is this so hard to understand?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/12
It is not hard to understand.
But what we who keep all ten of God's commandments are asking is this: On whose authority did they change from the sabbath day to the first day.

Ezekiel 22:28 divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.


We are also asking who determined the the first day is the Lord's day, when the word of God established the sabbath as the Lord's day?

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath,... my holy day,

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:9 Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
---francis on 10/1/12


The 4th command is the 7th day and always has been. The Lord Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, there is nothing in holy scripture that has ever abolished or changed the holy sabbath day to any other day of the week.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12

It is not hard to see that Christians, or The Way, (or whatever you want to call first century believers) would have wanted to separate themselves from Orthodox Jews. As we know, Orthodox Jews assemble for the Sabbath on Saturday and Christians would have not wanted to be identified with the Jews, hence they sought out a different day and found the first day of the week and identified it as the Lord's day.

Why is this so hard to understand?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/12


Mark V, Read EXODUS 20:8-11. That tells us which day of the week GOD ordained as the Sabbath Holy day. When one denies the Sabbath Commandment they are denying the 4th of those Ten Commandments! The WHOLE BIBLE, the Old and the New Testaments together, are GOD's Written Word for us today. One cannot truly believe that the Ten Commandments are valid if they deny the importance of obeying the 4th Commandment which is clearly a part of those Ten. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to say that one does not deny the Ten Commandments while they are denying the 7th day Sabbath. It's self-contradictory. Btw, The Sabbath is not an SDA issue. I observe the 7th Day Sabbath but I am not of the SDA. It's an issue of what is TRUE.
---Gordon on 10/1/12


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SDA's who accuse others of breaking the Ten Commandments. The Forth Commandment of the Ten does not say Saturday is the Sabbath, it says to keep the Sabbath

sda people do not accuse you of anything it is God and his holy word accusing you of breaking his sabbath command why ignore keep the sabbath?? Jesus asked why call me Lord and not do as I say? The 4th command is the 7th day and always has been. The Lord Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, there is nothing in holy scripture that has ever abolished or changed the holy sabbath day to any other day of the week.

circumcision is not required however any male would be foolish to deny many health benefits of circumcision which is why circumcision was never abolished either.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12


Most people do not know why circumcision is not needed. If you donot know why, see my post on on 9/27/12 IT INCLUDES SCRIPTURE

If you do not understand why all christian keep the sabbath, see Genesis 2:2-3 and isaiah 66:22-23

In breif:
Circumcision is a blood covenant that points to faith in Jesus and the cross
Sabbath is a memorial of God as creator


---francis on 10/1/12


No one here denies keeping the Ten Commandments, what we deny is keeping Saturday as one of the Commandments. And when Jesus mentions the Commandments He specifically says, two Commandments, not the Ten Commandments. No one accuses SDA's, it is SDA's who accuse others of breaking the Ten Commandments. The Forth Commandment of the Ten does not say Saturday is the Sabbath, it says to keep the Sabbath. So unless you provide a passage where God Himself said Saturday was the Sabbath, you got nothing on anyone. Third, everyone is a sinner whether SDA or any other denomination. Only those born of God are God's children, not because they kept the Ten Commandments but because they were saved by Grace through faith unto good works. Not by keeping the Law.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/12


elee, There are TWO Greatest Commandments, not just one. "Thou shalt love the LORD they GOD with all thine heart..." and "Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself." The Ten Commandments are a break-down of these Two Greatest Commands: 1 thru 4 deal with loving GOD. 6 thru 10 deal with loving your neighbour as yourself. The Church, consisting of BOTH Jewish-blood Believers and Gentile-blood Believers, was already observing the Sabbath Day Commandment, for they knew well that it was a Commandment- ACTS 17:2 and 18:4. In ACTS there is only ONE mention of the Believers gathering on the 1st day (Sunday), and SEVERAL mentionings of them gathering on the Sabbath. The Church has, since then, by-and-large, strayed from this Truth.
---Gordon on 10/1/12


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Romans 14:5
---trey on 10/1/12
This does not refer to the commandments of God.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
Exodus 20:11 wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

As we can all see, ONE day is very different and cannot be esteemed alike beause God blessed and sanctified or set it apart from all other days

Romans 14:5 refers to the various feast days. Which could fall on any of the 7 week days.(except pentecost)

We are not obligated to observe pentecost, or day of atonement.

BUT: Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, ..my holy day,

The sabbath day has always been observed by all of God's people
---francis on 10/1/12


Gordon - your problem seems to be that you are not rightly handling the word of God.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

If you really knew the truth, then yo would see that all the commandments have been condensed into one - love thy neighbor (Romans 13:9f).

And yes, if you violate any of the commandments you are held accountable for breaking the law, however we are not under that OT law.

If the Jewish Sabbath were applicable to the church we would must certainly see it commanded in the New Testament but we do not. Go figure!
---elee7537 on 10/1/12


elee, Only 9 of the 10 Commandments are applicable to the Church today? By whose mandate? Religious men's or by GOD's?? Interesting, then, that of all of the Ten Commandments, the only one that commands us to "Remember..." is the very one that you and many in today's Church choose to FORGET. And, that is the 4th Commandment (of the Sabbath). The Scriptures say that if one breaks one Law then, he's broken them ALL. The whole Ten are a complete Set of Laws. They are ALL valid or they are all nullified. No cherry-picking.
---Gordon on 10/1/12


francis, you and Mark V, are my favs.

When it comes right down to the heart of the matter:

Ro14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I see you as being fully persuaded in your mind and I am fully pursuaded in my mind.

I believe Paul was speaking to both of us:

Ro14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I am also fully pursuaded that we both shall be in heaven with Christ our Saviour at the end of time!
---trey on 10/1/12


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Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the LAW OF MOSES my servant, which I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

LAW OF MOSES is NOT the ten commandments. That is why Sabbath was NEVER spoken of in Jerusalem council.

The ten commandments was not given to Moses to give to Israel. God himself gave the ten commandments to Israel as confirmed by Moses:

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED ME at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it
---francis on 9/30/12


There was no right or wrong in what the apostles did in Acts 15. In religion there is only orthodoxy or heresy. Whatever the apostles decided was orthodox, and whatever opposed their decision was heretical. Had they decided in favor of circumcision, that would have been their orthodoxy.
---John.us on 9/30/12


*************

Lee:

There you go again, appealing to commentators rather than reading the scriptures as written. Either the Bible is wrong or you are. I say that YOU ARE WRONG! Make your arguments from the Bible alone, as we have no other common ground from which to reason. I will NEVER take the word of MAN over the word of GOD!

One more time.... Why did you add the "e" to your name?


************
---jerry6593 on 10/1/12


Israel as a whole nation rejected the Gospel.

So, God did an "end-around" with Paul.
---Phil on 9/30/12

According to John 3:16, salvation was not based upon whether the WHOLE NATION believed or the WHOLE NATION would be rejected.

We see in the beginning of ACTS over 6000 that day were added to the CHURCH.

You claim it's not THE CHURCH....so, are they floating around in limbo somewhere, just like those the RCC sent to hell for eating meat on Friday...and then changed it's mind?

Romans 4, tell you EXACTLY that even Abraham was imputed Righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised. Our faith is that of Abraham's, 400 years prior to the LAW, and the LAW did not annul this promise of salvation.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


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Sorry WrongJerry, but the Jerusalem council according to nearly ALL commentaries was about whether Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism to be legitimate.

In that the council concluded they need not be cirucumcised nor observe the laws of Moses.

One could not observe the Jewish Sabbath and not be circumcised. We see that in the writings of the Jewish rabbis.

And we see that confirmed in church history as the church no longer observed the Sabbath by early 2d century.
---elee7537 on 9/30/12


---trey on 9/29/12
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Here is the problem is:
No one here claims to be saved by keeping the law. But those who keep all ten commandments are often accused of keeping the law tro be saved. This is a strawman arguement by those who only keep 9/10 of the commandments.

I am sure that if you trey claim to be a christian that you do not worship other gods, no do you take God's name in vain, and you honour your father and mother. I would not say that you keep those in an effort to be saved, because these alone cannot save you.

So why should people who keep 10/10 commandments accused of keeping the law to be saved, while those who keep 9/10 claim to be saved by grace?
---francis on 9/30/12


Did the Apostles err at the Jerusalem council elee7537 on 9/27/12

James made the decree, not the Apostles.

Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.

How is it a non-Apostle could make a binding decree?

Would the guidance of Holy Spirit be absent here as well?

Why was this usurpation of Peter not mentioned? What caused this change in leadership?

It was Holy Spirit guidance in all these things.

They failed to take the Gospel to the nations for a reason.

Israel as a whole nation rejected the Gospel.

So, God did an "end-around" with Paul.
---Phil on 9/30/12


10 And ye are complete in him, ---:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,(( does not say heart)) hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us,took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross,

NOW Circumcision takes place at the CROSS
---kathr4453 on 9/30/12


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To understand the plan of redemption, it's important we have a correct view of the Law of God under which man has transgress, and the state in which he, by rebellion has fallen. The curse on sinners (without Christ) cannot be removed nor the trangressor be released until full satisfaction has been made to it. Such satisfaction the sinner himself is utterly, unable to render: "By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom. 3:20).
In order for the curse to be removed, it must fall upon another who is made a curse in his stead. Not only was Christ "made under the Law" but He also rendered perfect obedience to its precepts, He was made a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13).
---Mark_V. on 9/30/12


***********

Lee: "Jerry you are again wrong!

The issue at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 was whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism in order to be legitimate."

No Lee, YOU ARE WRONG! The scriptures say what they say, not what you may want them to say. [Are you using the New Lee Version again?] Acts 15 ONLY proscribes circumcision - NOT the other "Laws of Moses" (let alone the Ten Commandments) as I have shown in my last post.

And, you still didn't say why you added the "e" to your name.

**************

---jerry6593 on 9/30/12


FofL //James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Effectively the law cannot save as it always condemns.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It is Jesus who can save, not of ourselves.

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them (the Sabbath keepers), and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
---elee7537 on 9/29/12


Psalms 111:7-8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment, all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Ecclessiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

circumcision of males was a forerunner of circumcision of the heart, Apostles began to understand the need changed from physical (outward sign) to spiritual circumcision, however any man would realize that the cleanliness from circumcision is beneficial!! not ever was it recommended to not be done!!
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/29/12


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Jerry you are again wrong!

The issue at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 was whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism in order to be legitimate.

(15,5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

You may now have known this but circumcision was the rite of entry into Judaism. Just ask any Jewish Rabbi and that is what he would tell you.

Fortunately since the early church realized that salvation is all of grace, that the Gentiles also had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, it was not necessary to command them do anything that was disctinctly Jewish but to respect Jewish beliefs and practices.
---elee7537 on 9/29/12


One of the most interesting verses of the 15th chapter of Acts is actually verse 11.

Ac15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter, obviously a Jew, is declaring that his hope and expectation is that the Jews are saved just as the Gentiles, not by the keeping of the law, but by the grace of God.

What many do not understand is that we cannot do enough to save ourselves because the mark is perfection. Anything less results in condemnation. If it were not for Christ's substitution of his righteousness for our sins we would be condemned to hell.
---trey on 9/29/12


---Nana on 9/28/12
On 9/27/12 I explained why no one who believes in what Jesus did on the cross needs to be circumcised. Please review it.


I also explained why the dietary laws were important to gentiles on 9/27/12 please review that also

Faith does not excuse us from obeying God's laws.

Anyone of a pure heart, would be completely sourendered to God in all things, That would include his diet.

Keep in mind that the same term which God uses for two men " knowing" each other also the same word He uses for eating unclean meats: ABOMINATION.

Do you believe that the death of Christ would make any abomination acceptable to God?
---francis on 9/29/12


Lee:

First of all, why did you add the letter "e" to your name? What was wrong with the many other aliases you use?

Secondly, your question is flawed. The Apostles never declared that "the Law of Moses" need not be observed - only circumcision was made optional! Other aspects of "the Law of Moses" were left intact, such as:

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication:

You have ever been obsessed with trying to twist this particular scripture to justify your breaking of God's Law.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



---jerry6593 on 9/29/12


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1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Some Adventists believe that whenever they see the word "commandment", they automatically believe is has to refer to the Decalogue.
---elee7537 on 9/29/12


Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
---Nana on 9/28/12

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

when exactly did God put a yoke on anyone?
---francis on 9/28/12


Acts 15:7_9 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us,
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

Purifying their hearts by faith. Do you se anywhere that it says purifying their hearts by removing shellfish from their diet?
Four things were prescribed in Acts 15, you are adding and reading into.

francis, you think that gentiles should be circumcised and commanded to keep the law of Moses?
---Nana on 9/28/12


Next question, what are you saying? That it is ok to eat shellfish?
---Nana on 9/28/12
Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

There is nothing in the entire word of God that sanctifies shellfish as being good for food

as to those that live in the water, this is what the word of God sanctifies:
Deuteronomy 14:9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:

Deuteronomy 14:10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat, it is unclean unto you.

same chapter that outlaws eating strangled meats.
---francis on 9/28/12


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Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter, kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/28/12


Gordon //The Ten Commandments are a breakdown of the Law, which is part of the "LAW and the Prophets" which hang upon those Two Greatest Commandments.

I can only agree with you however,NOT ALL commamdments are applicable to the believer.

And such is the Sabbath commandment as it is NOT commanded or even suggest anyplace in the New Covenant.

Like circumcision, it was fulfilled in Christ.
---elee7537 on 9/28/12


francis,

"... are taken from the dietary laws?"

That does not mean that the whole dietary or whole law for that matter were prescribed, only the "necessary things"
Some wanted them to keep the whole law and to be circumsized, but Peter said:
Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Your next question? That is answered also with the last verse. Do you have a neck like an Ox or just pretend you do?

Next question, what are you saying? That it is ok to eat shellfish?
---Nana on 9/28/12


elee7537, The Ten Commandments are a breakdown of the Law, which is part of the "LAW and the Prophets" which hang upon those Two Greatest Commandments. The first four of the Ten Commandments deal with loving GOD and the last six pertain to loving your neighbour as yourself. EXODUS lists the Ten Commandments. The 613 Mosaic laws are from a different section of Old Testament, LEVITICUS, etc. Two separate sets of "Laws".
---Gordon on 9/28/12


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Your statement implies that they reinforced for example the law to abstain from shellfish but that is not what is written there.
---Nana on 9/28/12

Do you agree that things strangled and abstaining from eating blood are taken from the dietary laws?

My next question would be:
DO you think they were pickingand chooing from the dietary laws?

Next question is:
1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

what do you think the phrase " word of God" means here" OT or NT?
---francis on 9/28/12


Gordon// The Jerusalem Council did nothing to change the day of the Sabbath.

Since church historians have found that Gentile churches by 135 AD no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath there is no doubt that the Jerusalem council did not impose these distinctive Jewish laws onto the Gentile church.

Are there 2 sets of laws? The Scriptures do not support that verse. When it speaks of law, it means the whole law not just a subset. James 2:10

The 10 commandments are not paramount as even Jesus quoted from the book of the law as to what the chief commandment was in the law. View Matthew 22:36f
---elee7537 on 9/28/12


Okay, elee7537, The Jerusalem Council did nothing to change the day of the Sabbath. The law of Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments. Where does it state that GOD Himself gave this "Jerusalem Council" the authority to change the Sabbath from the 7th Day to the 1st day? Where?? You're making a straw-man argument, that, because the law of Circumcision is no longer mandated because of YAHUSHUA's New Covenant, you're insisting that this annullment includes the Sabbath. But, it does not. The law of Circumcision and the Sabbath Command are from TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF LAWS. Circumcision is from the 613 Mosaic laws. The Sabbath from the Ten Commandments from EXODUS 20.
---Gordon on 9/28/12


"So the council reinforced the dietary laws,.."
-francis on 9/27/12

francis, only pollutions of idols, fornication, things strangled.
Your statement implies that they reinforced for example the law to abstain from shellfish but that is not what is written there.
---Nana on 9/28/12


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In the beginning, Paul was obligated to the New Covenant, which was established with the Lord's disciples [Lk 22:20].

It contained baptism, repentence, and works [Mt 5:18 Lk 24:47 Ja 2:26]

The council preceded Paul's imprisonment and rejection at Rome, and the Kingdom Gospel had not yet been abrogated.

While Paul was in prison [Act 28:25], Holy Spirit declared the curse of the Prophet Isaiah upon Israel a third time [Isa 6:10, Mt 13:13], and the door to salvation through the ministry of the Twelve was shut.

Most certainly Holy Spirit directed the council. But they could only believe what the Lord had told them.

Paul was antagonized by Jewish believers throughout his ministry.
---Phil on 9/28/12


No Phil,
Salvation is by Jesus alone Acts 15 v 11. This is from Peter. "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we [Jews] are saved, just as they [Gentiles] are.

What the council did was allow a few rules to remain such that Gentiles and Jews could remain in peaceful community, not a list of requirements to maintain salvation from God. Acts 15 v 28-29.
---Scott1 on 9/28/12


Gentile believers need not become circumcised or observe the Law of Moses?
---elee7537 on 9/27/12

As to gentile believers not having to obey dietary laws, this is what the Jerusalem council said:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled DIETARY LAW FOUND IN Deuteronomy 14:21), and from blood (DIETARY LAW FOUND IN Leviticus 17:12)

So the council reinforced the dietary laws, Deuteronomy 14 is especially useful to these gentiles who in times pass would have been given a strangled animal by the jews
---francis on 9/27/12


Cirumcision is also the rite of entry into the Jewish religion. Once you became circumcised you were then obligated to observe all the laws of Judaism found in the Torah.

Without circumcision you would not be considered part of that covenant- the covenant expressed by the Decalogue.
---elee7537 on 9/27/12


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Phil - so it is your contention that Gentile believers had to become proselytes to Judaism and obey all the law of Moses? That the decision of the Jerusalem council was made by man not of the Holy Spirit?

In that you have to hold the position that the Bible as we have it is really not the word of God but man instead.
---elee7537 on 9/27/12


Cirumcision,(WHICH IS THE ONLY LAW THAT WAS decided AGAINST IN THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL) is a blood sacrifice:
Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

It was a sacrifice pointed to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus for putting away the life of sin

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Those who believed on the death of Jesus needed not to be physically circumcised any more:
Colossians 2:11 and Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision,..then is the offence of the cross ceased.
---francis on 9/27/12


\\With Israel's final rejection of the Kingdom [Acts 28:25-28], the Apostles at Jerusalem lost their authority over the nations\\

The Apostles passed on their authority to bishops in the Apostolic Succession.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/12


This passage is evidence to affirm the differences between Paul's evangel and that of the Lord and John.

Prior to Paul's imprisonment, when he fully unveiled his understanding of the secret concealed from the ages and generations [the equal and joint body of Christ], Gentiles were required to observe all that the Twelve had received of the Lord.[baptism, repentence, sabbath, observation of the law].

With Israel's final rejection of the Kingdom [Acts 28:25-28], the Apostles at Jerusalem lost their authority over the nations, and Paul's evangel became the only gospel for today.
---Phil on 9/27/12


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If and only if you believe that they were not guided by the Holy Spirit at this council.

And if they were not guided by the Holy Spirit on this occasion, how do you know the entire New Testament can be trusted, as it was written by the same people who made this decision at the Council of Jerusalem you question?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/12


James was not an apostle. He was the Lord's brother according to flesh.

Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom, not the Lord's brother. Yet the believers had come to follow James in matters spiritual, probably over the way Peter broke the ordinances [Ac 11:3].

The Jewish disciple never were released from the Law of Moses [Mt 5:18], and the Lord never rescinded the promise to inherit the Land. He could not do so without breaking His covenant with Abraham.

Ro 15:8 ..Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers.
---Phil on 9/27/12


One person on this forum insisted that we should not obey man but God implying that the Apostles erred at the Jerusalem council that Gentile believers need not observe laws that were distinctly Jewish such as the Sabbath and the Levitical dietary laws.

What say you?
---elee75m37 on 9/27/12


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