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What Is Supernatural

Here I have read about demons, angels, and intelligently coded DNA. These can broadly be called "supernatural." What other things have "supernatural" causes?

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 ---atheist on 9/27/12
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A theist: "I think that there is a greater chance that flying pigs or unicorns exist that [sic] god or demons...."

Based on what naturalistic evidence do you "believe" such a thing? Oh yeh, blind faith again! Have you ever met anyone who ever saw such a thing? On the other hand, I'll bet you've met folks who claim to know God personally.

So gather your evidence. You're living in a world of fantasy. Turn around while you still have time.


---jerry6593 on 10/29/12


Atheist there is no cost for you if you accept flying pigs exist. However if you accept God exists there is a cost. Ultimately you must swallow your pride and ask forgiveness for everything you have done which offends him. And you would have to submit your life to Him and serve Him, His way, not yours. This is a frightening thing as many who have become Christian have attested.

At Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris above the right hand portal there is a freize depicting a group of people heading to heaven, and another heading to hell. The hell bound group have a chain which is not fixed to them, but they are holding it, symbolizing the pride of those who will not submit and willingly go to hell. What has changed in 800+ years?
---Warwick on 10/27/12


athiest, of course you would believe that, the very reason you are an athiest. How could you possibly believe there is a God? If you did, you would not be an athiest. So simple.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/12


Why do you think we have so much evil in this world. Where is it coming from? Are man just rotten? It is the devil that made us do it. Only, of course, God won't except that excuse on the "Great Judgment Day"
---pat on 10/26/12


I think that there is a greater chance that flying pigs or unicorns exist that god or demons....
---atheist on 10/26/12




Storms, are not caused by "mother nature", [another one of my pet-peeves]! One is a brewing out in the ocean. God is the Creator of storms. And you can see His power in them. God sends them as His judgment upon sin and wicked people....So get ready. We should have our eyes up, rather than out. God can be a holy terror to the wicked. HE PUTS UP WITH A LOT. Man's day is now, God's day is coming!
---pat on 10/26/12


Atheist,you are agnostic (I don't know) regarding unicorns but atheistic (I do know) regarding God.

Without proof you accept unicorns may exist, therefore logically you should also accept God may exist. Not so? But you don't-irrational don't you agree?

Further you are surrounded by rational intelligent people (even scientists) who have met God, whose lives have been transformed positively because of this. You are also surrounded by the specific, organized complexity of Creation but prefer to believe, against all evidence and reason, that it made itself. If I told people my computer made itself they would reasonably consider, I had lost the lot. But for everyone healing, physical, psychological and spiritual is freely available.
---Warwick on 10/26/12


No, Atheist, you are agnostic to the miracle of the instantaneous genesis of life on this planet, and thus to its Creator.


---jerry6593 on 10/26/12


I am agnostic to unicorns, flying pigs, and the such. I am an atheist regarding gods, god, demons, devils, and the like.
---atheist on 10/25/12


Atheist if, as you say, you "don't know" you are an agnostic, not an atheist. So which is it?
---Warwick on 10/24/12






If Evolution were a fact - if indeed life did begin and develop through natural processes, then the natural world would show evidence of its origin and development. But, the natural world shows the opposite of this paradigm. Life appears instantly in the fossil record rather that slowly developing from simple to complex. The concept of a driving force in nature that adds information to genomes and creates more complex creatures is refuted by the (natural) 2nd law of thermodynamics.

It would take miracles to overcome these natural impediments to Evolution - but miracles are supernatural! So Atheist believes in the supernatural, i.e., God!


---jerry6593 on 10/20/12


The same power that raised Jesus frm the grave is the same power that saved me....Supernatual. God does a lot of stuff, that you just know was God. Supernatural is more powerful than the natual. God is ALL POWERFUL. Storms, yes.
---pat on 10/19/12


God's power is supernatual. He works. Work God work! How do you think Jesus was raised from the grave and assended into heaven? Supernatual. Yes! How do you think He gets me through everyday? Supernatually.
---pat on 10/18/12


So far no one has added anything to the list of things caused by "supernatural" causes. Given that supernatural means "unexplainable by natural law,"[definition 1] it is a little odd, since there are a lot of things that fall into that category (although I would not put demons, devils, gods, and such into it), that people, like Jerry, get so bent over this topic. The bottom line is just that "natural" explanations have not been found for many things. The idea that they haven't yet been found doesn't "prove" that supernatural explanations of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil [definition 2] are "facts".

I prefer, "I don't know," to superstition.
---atheist on 10/18/12


*************

A theist: You continue to scream "Evolution is a FACT!" without a single particle of supporting evidence - FACTS.

The ONLY fact we agree on is that we are here. It should be evident to you that there are only two possible explanations - natural and supernatural. You reject the supernatural and adhere to the natural in spite of the hard evidence against a natural system of origins, and in favor of a supernatural. Why? Where's your intellectual honesty?

****************

---jerry6593 on 10/16/12


Atheist, unless you have short-term memory problems you will know numerous Christians here have told you they believe God's record of creation by faith. Not blind faith as the evidence of supernatural design is all around us, as I have demonstrated. We believe it is fact but do not claim it is scientifically provable. You on the other hand claim it is proven fact but cannot provide any scientifically verifiable proof. You know, as we know you provide none as there is none. Your cupboard is bare.

BTW you still have not answered how your imagined light sensitive spot could have given your imagined creature any extra survival value. Too hard? Impossible?
---Warwick on 10/15/12


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Athiest, where has God deceived? None that I know of.

We can prove God by looking at the world and our universe.

But man only has theories.
If its anyone who deceives its man. We are the ones who sin and the ones who need saving. God created a perfect world and man is the one who allowed sin into it by disobedience.
If all of man kind would obey God and believe Him and believe that he sent his son, none would suffer at the hands of another person again.
Man has let in pollutions, war, famine, everything that is bad was caused by man's selfishness. So, if you want to blame someone, look at yourself like the rest of us do. Because in the end no one can stand in judgement for you but you. So examine yourself daily.
---g on 10/15/12


g,

With your selection of choices about "god" and what he can do you certainly can prove anything. Add to that a "god" who chooses to deceive and you've got an invincible argument.

But I am not buying any supernatural hocus pocus to day, thank you very much. So how about something in the real world?
---atheist on 10/15/12


athiest, the Bible says how we were created. We were created from the dust of the earth and God breathing life into us. Thats how God created everythings.
If God can create a GROWN man and woman, make them APPEAR older than they really are, what makes you think he can't create a universe and make it APPEAR older than it really is?
God does things to confound the WISE. The so called wise will be proven to be fools by God who created them.

You seem to worship the created things because you can see them, but have no idea of how they were created. Only a theory. A theory doesnt make something fact.

We know God can make things APPEAR older than they really are. Everthing existing proves it. Thats certainly a FACT.
---g on 10/15/12


All,


"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

This is where your mythology begins. No how's included.

Yet you seem to think that you are entitled to some detailed scientific explanation for any and all parts of evolution.

The fact is no one needs evolution to refute this speaking into existence mythology. So I won't. The idea that an invisible being spoke and the world came to be is just childish. Let me hear the details, that should be some grade 'a' nonsense.
---atheist on 10/15/12


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Atheist for you to try and separate the naturalistic appearance of life from naturalistic evolution is double speak as without the naturalistic appearance of life there can be no naturalistic microbe to man evolution. They are dependent upon one another, like a horse and carriage.

BTW you still have not even attempted to explain how the complexity of the human eye came about by naturalistic processes. You muttered something about a light sensitive spot. But this is meaningless as your imagined mythical creature would have gained no assistance from same unless there also existed an image transport system and a brain program to interpret the image. Your explanation is in the-once upon a time..basket.
---Warwick on 10/15/12


Atheist: "Abiogenesis is in no way related to Darwinian evolution."

How ignorant you appear of not only your religion, but also of the words of your prophet!

"But if (and oh! what a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of amonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc., present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes." - Charles Darwin, The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, (1887 ed.), p. 202



---jerry6593 on 10/15/12


"We do not know how the first multicellular life formed, but we know what it was made of"

So you don't know how this occurred but you're sure it was through evolution. Sorry, Atheist, but are you making a joke at your own expense or are we supposed to take this as a piece of serious philosophical reasoning?

Re abiogenesis, if stochastic chemical processes brought life from non-life, then life's precursors must have been established by some form of random chemical shuffling and acted upon by a may-the-strongest-best-adaptative molecule process. Logically, apart from theism, there is no other game in town. And Atheist if you don't understand that you don't even understand your own religion.
---Marc on 10/14/12


Evolution is a fact.
---atheist on 10/11/12

Explain how A woodpecker does not kill itself when it is making a whole in a tree with its beak.

Explain how giraffe dips its head to drink water without blod rushing to its head and dying.

How did these things evolve to what they are when these animals NEED these specific things to keep from dying.


God said we are made in his image. Don't we CREATE things all the time? YES we do. We are an image of OUR creator. Not being able to see that is sad.
---g on 10/13/12


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Evolution does not propose origins of life. Evolution does not seek to answer the question of how the first multicellular organisms appeared. It describes how they evolved once they formed, not how they formed in the first place. Abiogenesis is in no way related to Darwinian evolution. We do not know how the first multicellular life formed, but we know what it was made of and that these elements were abundant on the early Earth, after it formed 4.54 billion years ago, and that these same elements are present throughout the universe today. The vast timescales involved aren't easy to comprehend. But admitting you do not understand something, in science, is the only way to find out.
---atheist on 10/13/12


Sorry, Warwick, but Chesterton was wrong. You see, people like Atheist actually do believe NO-THING produced EVERYTHING.
---Marc on 10/13/12


Atheist, we do not have to strive to explain creation as it is obvious in what we see around us-Romans 1:20. No thinking person imagines a comparatively crude device such as my computer came about without specific intelligent input. Likewise no thinking person should imagine the far far greater specific,ordered complexity we see everywhere in nature came about without far greater intelligence.

When hiking if we see a few rocks arranged to form an arrow would any intelligent person imagine they were placed so by natural forces? The very idea is ridiculous.

GK Chesterton spoke with keen insight long ago when he said-when people do not believe in God it is not that they believe in nothing but that they will believe anything.
---Warwick on 10/13/12


A theist: "Evolution is a fact."

OK, genius, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to name one FACT about Evolution that is provable. Go ahead, I triple-dog dare you.

C'mon now A, Surely you can come up with one teenie tiny little fact about Evolution that you KNOW is true! IF not, all this blathering you do about it is just blowing in the wind.


---jerry6593 on 10/13/12


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So, Atheist, you DO agree with Warwick that if evolution were [obviously]true then no one would have to mention it?
---Marc on 10/12/12


CORRECTION:


If the existence of god were a fact it would be obvious and no one would have to say so.
---atheist on 10/12/12


If you were a fact it would be obvious and no one would have to say so.
---atheist on 10/12/12


Atheist, if evolution was a fact you would not have to say so, it would be obvious. But it isn't so you resort to words in the place of facts.
---Warwick on 10/12/12


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Shira,

I never said bumblebees can't fly.

Evolution is a fact.
---atheist on 10/11/12


athiest, if bumblees don't fly what are those big bees that chase me all summer? the bumblee bees in your area may walk I don't know but down where I live they surely fly and fly my direction. one even put a hole in my garage. I stuffed it with gum. never saw that one fly again.
---shira4368 on 10/11/12


"Evolution is a fact."
atheist
With all of your "knowledge" about the flight of the Bumble Bee how about some concrete facts about this statement?
Let's do some common sence thinking. If I were to find that evolution were true nothing would change for me. What happens when you find that God created all things out of nothing? What will change for you? Nothing if you are in Hell at that time!
---Elder on 10/10/12


A theist: "Evolution is a fact."

OK, genius, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to name one FACT about Evolution that is provable. Go ahead, I double-dog dare you.



---jerry6593 on 10/10/12


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Evolution is a fact.---atheist on 10/9/12

"As it turns out, the tooth upon which Nebraska Man was constructed belonged to an extinct species of pig. The "authorities," who ridiculed Mr. [William Jennings] Bryan for his supposed ignorance, created an entire race of humanity out of the tooth of a pig! ...Needless to say, little publicity was given to the discovered error. Surely, there is a lesson here for us concerning the reliability of so-called "expert testimony," which is so often used to manipulate and intimidate the layman...Give them a tooth, not necessarily human, and they can create an entire race of prehistoric humanity.

(Scott M. Huse, The Collapse of Evolution, pp. 97-98.)
---aka on 10/9/12


Atheist: 'Evolution is a fact'

In my case, I will take a more scientific argument on this. The problem with your statement is arguing that we KNOW what actually occurred in the past to MAKE humans become humans.We find bones, and other things, and the bones are of course, real. But the WAY in which one type of bone (or rather the animal/people which had those bones) became another type or more recent type of animal/people which had another type of bones is something that we cannot know, because the WAY/METHOD does not get fossilized

So the way in which animals change is only a theory, just because the WAY cannot be found later on.
---Peter on 10/9/12


Evolution is a fact.
---atheist on 10/9/12


Athiest said, "The calculations that purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon...."
Wow!! What factual information. Great post! This explain the concept/fact very well.
It would sure take a dumb person to think this happened by accident or that a big bang out of nothing somewhere occcured.
---Elder on 10/9/12


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A theist: "Jerry, that your bible contains what appear to be facts here and there does not make it all true."

No, Big A, the Bible DOES contain provable facts! What does your book (Darwin's) contain other than childish "just so" stories and outright lies? Name one FACT about Evolution that is provable - I dare you.

Man up, will you!


---jerry6593 on 10/9/12


Atheist,

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to explain how chance chemical evolution "developed" (sorry, couldn't think of any creation-free word!) all those aspects of a bumble bee's flight mechanism.

But of course, Atheist, being totally consistent with his worldview, won't bother because atheists have no rational basis to be intellectually honest in life. After all, being dishonest has no absolute wrongness about it - it's all a matter of choice.
---Marc on 10/8/12


"The calculations that purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle."
---atheist on 10/8/12


Atheist, your sense of reasoning is without a doubt the lowest level. Guess you don't know the harrier aircraft was designed from studies of hummingbirds. Are they supernatural? I don't think so. God made everything that was made, even bumblebees and hummingbirds that can fly forward then all of a sudden fly backwards. My God is great.
---Shira4368 on 10/8/12


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athiest, science has proven that aerodynamicaly the Bumble bee cannot fly. You ain't gotta go back to 1934 to see if one can. Just look at it.
Science tried to prove that the Ark couldn't float then they started to build battleships with the same pattern. Then they said all of the animals couldn't fit on it because Noah didn't have a place for the fish.
But, the dumbest thing is to debate me if God exists or not. Your debate is with God Himself. Because you can see me doesn't mean I am not here it is the same with God.
Your belief hasn't affected me at all but my faith has affected you. Otherwise why would you even be here?
---Elder on 10/8/12


Elder,

That a bumble bee cannot fly is folklore from 1934, more current analysis shows it can and of course does.

So do you believe that bumble bees move with supernatural help, or can you google your way into modern science?

Jerry, that your bible contains what appear to be facts here and there does not make it all true.
---atheist on 10/8/12


The most profound supernatural mystery is when God saves ol sinners. It is beyond my realm of thinking but I still know it happens because I was saved. Some say you can't feel the Holy Spirit but let me say there was no doubt in my mind what was happening. Some say we are saved thru faith but it is much more than that. It is a gift of God.
---shira4368 on 10/8/12


"But soon enough the questions of existence and consciousness will be answered by science."
Oh how foolish for anyone to say this. Science still doesn't know how a Bumble Bee flys so what makes anyone with a little sence think that "science" can answer complex things?
---Elder on 10/8/12


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***********

A theist: "You have your book of mythology. So what?"

Not true at all. Our Ancient Record Book is filled with verified historical events, archaeological and geographical records, and accurate anthropological and language descriptions, in addition to moral realities.

What does your record book have? Childish conjecture, wishful thinking, and fraud?

Get serious, A., your belief system is built on blind faith in NOTHING!

************

---jerry6593 on 10/8/12


Yes Jerry,

You have your book of mythology. So what?
---atheist on 10/7/12


Atheist demands "any documented case where matter was created by itself [sic] with external, intelligent manipulation." Logically, therefore, you must believe matter is eternal (or do you believe matter just popped into existence without a cause?]. Therefore, you prove that proposition. Good luck, Einstein.

Let's analogise (i.e. dumb-down) what evolution says it can do apropos biological life. Atheist, here's umpteen zillion tonnes of paper, endless litres of ink, and 4.5 billion years. Now, show us all the steps leading to those three, and only those three, entities producing the 12 volume edition of the Oxford Dictionary. Remember, no intelligence allowed. Should be easy for you!
---Marc on 10/7/12


Seriously A, you are NOT man enough to admit that your silly conjectures have no basis in reality. There is nothing about the nature of matter that is self-generating. In fact, entropy tells us the exact opposite is true. We have an ancient record book that chronicles the supernatural creation. What do you atheists have?



---jerry6593 on 10/7/12


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Jerry,




Sure sounds like blind faith in the impossible to me. You have absolutely nothing in the supernatural world to base such a belief upon, and much to refute it. Yet you really, really believe!

I challenge you to show any documented case where matter was created by itself with external, intelligent manipulation? Otherwise, be man enough to admit that there is no evidence of the "supernatural" creation of matter.

Seriously, Jerry.....
---atheist on 10/6/12


Atheist,

Mate, I know you're hard of hearing but listen.

If you proclaim the kingdom of Materialism (aka Logical Positivism) and say "a natural explanation will [eventually] be found", that's a PHILOSOPHICAL statement, not a scientific one. You've unveiled your deep-rooted religious belief. Epistemologically speaking, this has the same cash-value as theists saying, "Naturalism can't explain everything."

Like it or not, you do philosophy everytime you proclaim a metaphysics of reality, claiming evolution EXPLAINS all.

Jerry, Warwick and I have provided several items defying naturalism. Saying "eventually naturalism" will prevail is NOT science, it's religious talk masquerading as science.
---Marc on 10/6/12


*************

A theist: "A natural explanation will be found."

Sure sounds like blind faith in the impossible to me. You have absolutely nothing in the natural world to base such a belief upon, and much to refute it. Yet you really, really believe!

Again, I challenge you to show any documented case where matter was created by itself without external, intelligent manipulation? Otherwise, be man enough to admit that there is no evidence of the "natural" creation of matter.

***************

---jerry6593 on 10/6/12


And which was my last post? This, that, or the other?
---atheist on 10/4/12


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Atheist,

I actually thought you were smart. Everything you said in your last post was philosophy, thus contradicting yourself.

BTW, don't confuse nescience with profundity, which I believe you have.
---Marc on 10/4/12


I do not do philosophy. I believe all questions will be eventually answered in the natural world. Option 1 of my last post is the only one credible. I get philosophy, but it provides no answers. If that is your cover, then you can have it. But soon enough the questions of existence and consciousness will be answered by science. In the meantime I see philosophy as an elite form of mythological explanation.
---atheist on 10/3/12


Atheist,

If you'd handed that posting, brief as it is, into me to mark as a university philosophy paper, I'd fail you. Seriously, in the world of serious philosophy - and that's what you think you're doing - materialists and non-materialists would think you're making a joke. Man, you need some deep education if that's the height of your thinking.
---Marc on 10/3/12


Jerry,

There are only two possibilities that I can think of:

1) A natural explanation will be found.
2) It was done by the mythological machinations of a supernatural something.

I don't believe in mythology. You do.
---atheist on 10/3/12


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"Not sure if you think this applies to you or me." atheist

Well, let's be logic where these Words came from. Oh yeah, from the epistle to the Romans Chapter 1 verse 22 written by the apostle Paul, WHICH BY THE WAY CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE HOLY BIBLE AND NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD OF BOOKS.

But wait! You don't belief in God, let alone the Holy Bible.

So, the answer is simple - IT APPLIES TO YOU!
---christan on 10/2/12


How do you tie your shoes? Perhaps a shoe-tying angel helps?,

Atheist come on now, really?? don't you know that shoe-tying angels were recommissioned once we all got the hang of shoe tying ourselves?? that's one of the many problems with unbelievers they think us believers have angels as servants running around doing everything for us!! please don't compare Gods angels to the man made invention of fairies and magic dust and all of that hocus pocus junk it is disrespectful to their glory and proves you really don't know most things.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/30/12


A theist: You are now delusional as well as woefully ignorant. Just how did the supernatural creation of matter morph into my starting a car? Are you unable to concentrate enough to finish a conversation before starting a new one?

Again, I challenge you to show any documented case where matter was created by itself without external, intelligent manipulation? Otherwise, be man enough to admit that there is no evidence of the "natural" creation of matter.


---jerry6593 on 10/1/12


Not everything supernatural is spiritual. That's why Christians especially need to know that even Satan can and does work in the supernatural, but NOT SPIRITUAL.

Spiritual meaning that in the Spirit of God and His Word.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


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Christan,

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."


Not sure if you think this applies to you or me.


Jerry,

If everything in the universe is supernatural do you pray or perform a ritual before turning the key to start your car?

Seriously, if everything in the universe is supernatural then every thing you do or think is driven by unseen and unknowable causes. So unlike myself, who does not know some things, you must not know anything. How do you tie your shoes? Perhaps a shoe-tying angel helps?
---atheist on 9/30/12


Atheist,

Love your attempt at taking the intellectual high ground! So, you don't even bother responding. I take that as surrender, belly up. So sad. I thought you may have had more fight in you than that.

Correction. On past efforts, you know the ones Atheist, the ones you try to pass off avoidance and question begging as argument, I guess this latest is same old same old.

Now that's risible!
---Marc on 9/30/12


Romans 1:19-22, "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
---christan on 9/30/12


Back to me with what?

Everything is supernatural?

That is risible.....and not worth of comment. Instead I will try to bend a spoon with my mind, since I too should have supernatural capabilities.
---atheist on 9/30/12


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A theist: "Then it would appear that there is nothing natural..."

Wow! You're beginning to catch on. Can you show any documented case where matter was created by itself without external, intelligent manipulation?


---jerry6593 on 9/30/12


Jerry makes a sound point. Ultimately, it appears that all can't be explained by naturalistic causes e.g. the rise of biological information systems.

Atheist's woeful attempt to extricate himself from his materialism leads him into further trouble if Jerry's comment is unpacked. For Atheist, either the universe, in some form or other, is eternal - and thus matter is eternal and therefore "God" by another name [i.e. matter can do ANYTHING] - or the universe came out of NO-THING, a proposition so risible that only fools entertain it.

Back to you, Atheist.
---Marc on 9/29/12


'The universe and everything in it!'

Then it would appear that there is nothing natural...
---atheist on 9/29/12


The universe and everything in it!



---jerry6593 on 9/29/12


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"What other things have "supernatural" causes?"
Life, the Heavens, the Earth, and everything in them that has life. Gen. chapter 1 & 2
---joseph on 9/28/12


good answer, Scott! (c:

Yes, there is love which is supernatural . . . not connected with using people for what I want. Here is an example of supernatural love >

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls, though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)
---willie_c: on 9/28/12


supernatural is above or unexplained nature. In the world it is all about give me - idolatry, drunkedness, its all mine, the things of the flesh but the supernatural things are things of the spirit, the things of God, the things of life (Gal Ch 5.) true love, true joy, true peace, true patience, true goodness, true gentleness, and true self-control.
---Scott1 on 9/28/12


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