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Explain Pre Tribulation Rapture

I am still debating weather We as Believers will go through the Tribulation or be raptures in a pre trib rapture. I find nothing in the bible that supports 100% there is a pre trib rapture.

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\\First the rapture: God's taking the church out of the world instantaneously [snatch away or carry off].\\

There's no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.

Those waiting for one will be the first to fall down and worship the Beast.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/12


First the rapture: God's taking the church out of the world instantaneously [snatch away or carry off]. "Great tribulation", refers to the time of trouble that will usher in the second coming of Christ. Jesus warned that the great tribulation would be so intense that its calamities will nearly decimate all of life. Believers are exhorted to watch for Christ and fix their hope on Him, not upon events surrounding His coming [1John 3:3]. Note: There are different views when it comes to the millennium. Some Scriptures>>>1 Thess. 4: 14-17, 1 Corin. 15: 51-52, Mat. 24:21, Rev. 2:2, 7:14.
---pat on 11/15/12


The Rapture
1 Thessalonians 1:10
..and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.
(Titus 2: 13, 1 John 3: 2, Revelations 4:1, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-58,
---Patricia on 11/14/12


Hey, you all, Google "Famous Rapture Watchers" (see how the biggies viewed Rev. 3:10), "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Walvoord Melts Ice," "Pretrib Rapture Discovery," & "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty."
---Jon on 10/23/12


It's clear there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
pre-trib position doesn't divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a finale to the plan of salvation by grace alone.
The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by continuing old nature in believers. When we are glorified at the rapture, the church is no more divided.
The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view doesn't confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the boC in this age.
---michael_e on 10/14/12




//Yes, it is.//

You surely have BCV don't you?
---michael_e on 10/14/12


\\The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.\\

Yes, it is.

Your denying it does NOT change that fact.

The first mention of a pre-trib rapture was 1830. It wasn't heard of until then.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/12


The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9, 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)
It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)
---michael_e on 10/14/12


(Matt. 15:20-23) refers to the physical body (flesh) resurrection. All true believers have already been "Spiritually" resurrected. (Eph. 2: 4-7) tells us that "spiritually" we have "been raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness to ward us in Christ Jesus"
Spiritually we are with Christ forever. Spiritually baptized into One body with Christ as the Head. At the resurrection of the physical body, the believer will receive a glorified body prepared for heaven forever. They do not go through the second resurrection. The Second Coming is the end of this age.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/12


Almost all words in our English Bible are translations of Greek or Hebrew expressions, and are not always in the form we know them. Example, "Jesus" is a good translation of His name "Yeshua" ("Joshua," "The Lord Saves" in Hebrew). In the same way, the English word "rapture" meaning "caught up" is an excellent translation for the Greek "harpazo." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could say that all English words are not in the Bible.
---michael_e on 10/10/12




---Follower_of_Christ on 10/9/12 "The Lord does not return twice. The resurrection of all happens when Lord Jesus returns to earth".

There are three resurrections.

Our resurrection is called the out-resurrection Phl 3:11
G1815 exanastasis. We are snatched away in clouds, not on the earth. 1Th 4:17 We are hidden there with Him until He returns to Olivet.

Faithful Israel participates in the former resurrection. Re 20:5 This resurrection is to life on earth, not in the celestial realms where we will be.

The last resurrection is a thousand years later Re 20:5, when the condemned are cast into the lake of fire.
---Phil on 10/10/12


The Pre-Trib rapture teaches us that the dead will be resurrected, and they will go first.
If there is a Pre-Trib rapture, this resurrection would be the first resurrection
The problem with this teaching is (Revelation 20:4 & 5) tells us who will be in the first resurrection.
It will be those who lose their heads because they didn't worship the Beast. The worship of the Beast happens during the Tribulation.
Since we know this happens during the tribulation, there can be no Pre-Trib rapture.
---David on 10/10/12


BTW, I think much of apocalyptic scripture is not a period of time as we know, but a concept...---Rod4Him on 10/4/12

it seems to be a pattern doesn't it?

Any literature in the bible must be seen as allegorical AND literal. We must close our eyes to see it and die to live it.

(Imagine...eyes shut...will there really be one woman in the future named Jezebel that many people will practice sexual immorality with and eat "idoled" food with her? Is this literal or figurative?)

If one sentence is literal, then how do we know another isn't?

The Word of the Lord is paradoxical. It is a Word that is not understood easily by reading or hearing, but by doing.
---aka on 10/9/12


The Lord does not return twice. The resurrection of all happens when Lord Jesus returns to earth to rule as King of Kings from Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/9/12


Part IV: There is certainly a plethora of rapture interpretations.

My suggestion is to go back to the basics of Christianity - to obey the two commandments spoken of by Jesus. Allow the future to unfold on its own. Do an online bible search for "one another", comfort, encourag, and "each other" and do what is commanded. Let tomorrow take care of itself. There is enough to do today than to try to figure out what tomorrow will bring. You read the prophesies, just be aware of what is happening. Keep praying that God will find you worthy to escape such things. Allow Him to guide you when the time comes.
---Steveng on 10/7/12


In your opinion is God dealing with Israel today?
---Rod4Him on 10/4/12
I believe God has His hand on Israel.
they were scattered into every nation in 70 AD From then until the 1900's it was a wasteland under different empires.
After WW II, they escaped Europe and their numbers grew Then the War of Independence. They were declared a Sovereign State. But, by a UN supervised cease-fire, the borders were established that left the Arabs in the West Bank. the Promised Land goes all the way out to the Euphrates River and back to the River of Egypt in the West.
when Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom, ruling from Jerusalem, Israel will finally enjoy all the real estate promised to Abraham in Gen. 15:18.
---michael_e on 10/5/12


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In your opinion is God dealing with Israel today?
---Rod4Him on 10/4/12

God's only dispensation in the earth during this period of grace is the calling out of the predesignated among the nations, foreknown before the disruption, in order to complete the body of Christ.

This body of believers will inhabit the celestial realms, ruling and reconciling the universe with the Christ of God.

His direct activity with men ended when Israel killed Messiah.

His operation on earth is in spirit, calling and sealing the elect among the nations.

Isreal's time is coming. They will be judged, separating wheat and chaff, in preparation for the King of Kings to appear.
---Phil on 10/5/12


//Study more, our apostle says we are a NEW creation, not any kind of replacement.//

In your opinion is God dealing with Israel today?
---Rod4Him on 10/4/12


Part III: Sixth, Don't be so vain to think you are more special than the Christians and Godly people who died in all of history. Don't be afraid about what is about to happen during these end times. Persecution, on the other hand, is what we will face. Are you willing to die for Jesus like all the other Godly people and Christians in the past? Now is the time to strengthen your relationship with God.

Seventh, Christians will be going through the tribulation much like all the other groups of godly people who gone through tribulation in the past like the Israelites in Egypt during the plagues, Noah and his family, and all the remnants. Dont worry though, if your faith in God is strong, He will protect you.
---Steveng on 10/4/12


We know from scripture there is no rapture, when Lord returns a trumpet is blown and the Believers both alive and dead will be resurrected to eternal spirit life and the Lord establishes Gods government on earth to live and reign as King of Kings in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/4/12


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---RichardC on 10/4/12

So, the words of the Christ are insufficient for us to believe? We are to then make up our own conjectures and subvert His declarations?

I cannot do what you do, and remain faithful to Christ.

No man has seen God, and no man has been changed to inhabit heaven, besides the Christ of God.

Your BCV are examples of God removing persons to another location, not transfiguring them to inhabit heaven.

2Ch 21:12 Elijah, in flesh, writes a letter 7 years after being caught up in a tempest.

Ac 8:40 Philip was found in Azotus, still in flesh.

Giving heed to fables and myths is not a good sign.
---Phil on 10/4/12


Steveng 10/3/12 - NO one in history was Rature ? We Know this is Not true Because Elijah Was - 2 Kings 2:1 - So How can we Read John 3:13 - And no Man hath ascended up to Heaven - With this we have a contradiction , And that Can't Be , The answer might be That there is More than ONE Heaven, 2 Corinthians 12,2 - When Christ Ascended He went To the most Highest Heaven.

Deuteronomy 10:14 BEHOLD to the Lord your God belong Heaven And the Highest Heavens, the Earth and All that is in it. { NASB }

Another Example of a Rapture -

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the spirit of the Lord caught away Phillip. that the eunuch saw him no more, and he went on his way rejoicing.
---RichardC on 10/4/12


BTW, I think much of apocalyptic scripture is not a period of time as we know, but a concept of "one should follow Christ because there will be a day of judgement."
---Rod4Him on 10/4/12

The Day of Judgement for the Church is called the Judgement Seat of Christ, no to be confused with Judgement upon the earth for those Mark_Eaton stated here with his verses in Revelation.

MATTHEW 24 AND 25, Zechariah 12-14 and Revelation with Daniel, is not a concept, but an actual event that will take place.

Unless you believe Jesus setting up His Earthly Kingdom is a concept too. Matt24-25 Zechariah 12-14, and the 1000 years clearly stated 6 times is LITERAL.
---kathr4453 on 10/4/12


//Dispensationalism says that the church has replaced Israel in this age,//

Study more, our apostle says we are a NEW creation, not any kind of replacement.
It's the tradition denominationalism that believes the BoC has replaced Israel
---michael_e on 10/4/12


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//God is dealing with Israel today just like anyone else...// which sounds like God is not dealing with Israel today, and the "church" has replaced Israel...a type of replacement theology.

//..During the Church age, the Age of Grace.//

God has always been a God of Grace.

//This is NOT God's WRATH upon the disobedient.//

Agreed, however, this WRATH could be the final apocalyptic jugdement, not a tribulation.

BTW, I think much of apocalyptic scripture is not a period of time as we know, but a concept of "one should follow Christ because there will be a day of judgement."
---Rod4Him on 10/4/12


Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego boys were placed in the furnace, Noah had to live through the flood, the israeites had to cross the red sea, Daniel was placed in a lions den.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Christians will make it through the tribulation
---francis on 10/4/12


Part of the dispensional teaching is that the Church will not go through wrath
---Rod4Him on 10/3/12

This does not sound like Believers in Christ to me:

Rev 9:20-21 "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk, and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts"

Rev 16:21 "...and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/4/12


Part I: This is a frivolous debate, but let's reason this out.

First, there are two raptures/resurrections: one, at the second return of Jesus when the dead in Christ rises and the living are caught up and, two, at the end of the thousand year period when all others are resurrected and judged from the Book of Life. Blessed are those that rise at the first resurrection

Second, there is nothing new under the sun. No one in history was ever raptured. Jesus himself said no one has ascended into heaven. Neither Moses nor Elijah will be the witnesses. God even says that he buried Moses in a valley. I suggest reading a phrase dictionary telling the many ways to say that a person kicked the bucket.
---Steveng on 10/3/12


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However, if that is the case, how is God dealing with Israel today?

Part of the dispensional teaching is that the Church will not go through "wrath."
The problem with that teaching is that believers will not be prepared for hard times if they come, ---.
---Rod4Him on 10/3/12

God is dealing with Israel today just like anyone else, During the Church age, the Age of Grace. Anyone who rejects the Gospel ragardless will be lost.

Yes believers SUFFER NOW and are persecuted as all believers have always suffered/been persucuted as Christians re: the fellowship of His Sufferings. If your not suffering now as a christian, you never will.

This is NOT God's WRATH upon the disobedient.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


2Th 2:3 ..for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.\\

In other words, 1 Thess 4 is talking about a POST trib rapture.

Just what I've been saying.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/12

Actually cluny this would be a mid trib rapture, since the man of sin, the Anti-Christ/Beast is not revealed intil the last 3 1/2 years. The first 3 1/2 years will be a false peace with the Beast, and then ALL heck will break loose.

And Don't confuse "Day of Christ" with "Day of the Lord".
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


\\Now YOU give me BCV on where 1 Thess 4 happens BEFORE the tribulation! ---Cluny on 10/3/12

2Th 2:1 ...by our gathering together unto him ..That ye be not soon shaken in mind...as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 ..for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.\\

In other words, 1 Thess 4 is talking about a POST trib rapture.

Just what I've been saying.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/12


There is also no such thing as an earthly millennial reign.
---Cluny on 10/2/12

Unbelieveable.

Jesus promised the Apostles they would reign with him, when does that happen?

When will Joel 3 be fulfilled when a river flows from the house of the Lord?

When will Isaiah 2 be fulfilled when nation will not make war with nation?

When will Isaiah 11 be fulfilled when the wolf will lie down with the lamb?

When will Micah 4 be fulfilled when they beat their swords into plowshares?

When will Zech 14 be fulfilled when the Lord will be king over all the Earth?

When will Daniel 2 be fulfilled when God will establish a kingdom on Earth that will crush the other kingdoms and shall never pass away?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/12


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//Ironside calls it straight from hell.//

It is pleasant to hear someone acknowledge the error of than teaching.

//..then the Church has not replaced Isrel, or any replacement at all.//

However, if that is the case, how is God dealing with Israel today?

Part of the dispensional teaching is that the Church will not go through "wrath."
The problem with that teaching is that believers will not be prepared for hard times if they come, and Scripture says that believers will suffer persecution.
---Rod4Him on 10/3/12


Now YOU give me BCV on where 1 Thess 4 happens BEFORE the tribulation.---Cluny on 10/3/12

The "great tribulation" is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is concerned only with the kingdom saints. It is revealed only in the Circumcision writings. It does not occur until at least three and a half years after God's indignation is let loose against the nations. It comes under the sixth seal, after five have already ravaged mankind. If we are not appointed to indignation, then we certainly will not suffer in the great affliction.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
---Phil on 10/3/12


You do see the difference in WE and THEY don't you?

//"When they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them and they will NOT escape."//


"Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall WE ever be with the Lord."
---michael_e on 10/3/12


Now YOU give me BCV on where 1 Thess 4 happens BEFORE the tribulation! ---Cluny on 10/3/12

2Th 2:1 ...by our gathering together unto him ..That ye be not soon shaken in mind...as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 ..for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Th 1:10 ...Jesus, our Rescuer out of the coming indignation.

We are to be saved from wrath. Saved where? Not on earth, for the hoarded vials of God's unmixed fury are emptied on the dry land and on the sea (Rev.16:2,3).
---Phil on 10/3/12


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"When they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them and they will NOT escape."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/12


Who is THEY here Cluny? And you want us to believe destruction will come upon teh Body of Christ, those safely IN CHRIST. Destruction did not come upon Noah did it?

Yet, we know the Whole of the Body of Christ is not going to fit into a FIRE SAFE ark. Christ is OUR ARK, in that we are IN HIM.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


//I already have.//
The Church makes a u turn and escorts Christ back to earth??
I've yet to see the BCV

It' easy to see 1 Thess 4 and Zech 14 are different.

Study what your apostle says about the wrath of God as it pertains to the BoC, starting with Rom.
---michael_e on 10/3/12


Rod, there are various dispnsational doctrines. Michael-e's is called hyper-dispensationalism an extreme and false doctrine. Ironside calls it straight from hell.

Since INDIVIDUAL Jews are saved during the church age, and Gentiles saved as well, making up, NOT National Israel, then the Church has not replaced Isrel, or any replacement at all. After the Church is formed and raptured, then those covenant promises to "A NATION" will in fact be fulfilled at his Second Coming ...Those promises were an earthly Kingdom Reign and that will happen.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


Once saved, always saved.

Going up in the rapture.

Fixed for time and eternity.

Got peace and safety.

"When they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them and they will NOT escape."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/12


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//Don't be fooled by Replacement Theology.//

True, however, dispensationalism in practice is almost the same thing. Dispensationalism says that the church has replaced Israel in this age, dispensation, but Israel starts again in the next dispensation, after the church is "raptured."
---Rod4Him on 10/3/12


\\BCV Where does it say we meet him in the air and escort him back to earth??
---michael_e on 10/2/12\\

I already have.

Now YOU give me BCV on where 1 Thess 4 happens BEFORE the tribulation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/3/12


The time of God's WRATH, the Day of the Lord, The Day of Jacob's trouble, The BOWLS is a time of tribulation LIKE NEVER BEFORE on the earth. Armageddon is another name.

So this particular 7 years divided by 3 1/2 - 3 1/3 is also called the GREAT Tribulation.

The time of JACOB's trouble has nothing what so ever to do with the Church. It has to do with God's dealing with Israel, and those nations round about who come to war against her. Those who also take the mark of the beast.a time also fortold in Daniel.

Zechariah 12-14...Matthew 24-25, Romans 11. and so many more scriptures there isn't enough room....Genesis 49 is a big one. Also, God telling Israel He will deal with their rebellion re: the Golden calf incident.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/12


//Jesus does not do this.

WE do, and escort Him back to earth when He lands on the Mount of Olives to begin the Last Judgement.//

BCV Where does it say we meet him in the air and escort him back to earth??
---michael_e on 10/2/12


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Don't be fooled by the dispensationalists.
---christan on 10/2/12


Don't be fooled by Replacement Theology.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/12

Do be a do bee, Don't be a don't bee.
---aka on 10/2/12


Nowhere does the New Testament clearly say anything like, "Jesus will come back before the great tribulation." But God can hold raptures and resurrections any time He pleases . . . like how He raised Lazarus and took Enoch and Elijah. We are not His counselor.

However . . . people are claiming our Father has to resurrect us in a pre-trib rapture, in order to protect us from His wrath judgments. But I will offer you that God is not like an alcoholic abuser who hurts his good kids along with his badly behaved ones. Our Father has self-control >

"A thousand may fall at your side,
.And ten thousand at your right hand,
.But it shall not come near you."
. . . . . . . (Psalm 91:7)
---willie_c: on 10/2/12


\\The key word is "descend", which does not mean "to make a u-turn in mid-air."

Jesus does not do this.

WE do, and escort Him back to earth when He lands on the Mount of Olives to begin the Last Judgement.\\
---Cluny on 10/1/12


\\Makes no sense
BCV please\\
---michael_e on 10/2/12


I would think that since you entered the Greek 1Thess 4:16-18, you should know the word
apantesin (or apanthsin, as you have it rendered)


It means to go out and meet someone who's coming, and come back with him. Like a welcome caravan

I highly doubt it will take 7 years to go meet Him in the clouds and get back
---James_L on 10/2/12


Don't be fooled by the dispensationalists.
---christan on 10/2/12


Don't be fooled by Replacement Theology.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/12


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\\Makes no sense
BCV please
---michael_e on 10/2/12\\

Zech 12:14 and 1 Thess 4:15-17.

Also Jude 14, 15.

They are all talking about the same thing: when the Lord Jesus returns at the END of the tribulation to begin the Last Judgement.

There is also no such thing as an earthly millennial reign. This is nothing more than a kingdom of this world that comes to an end, and Jesus said, "My Kingdom is NOT of this world." furthermore, at the Annunciation, Gabriel said that Jesus's reign would have NO end.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/2/12


Kathr 10/1/12 - We are saved from the Wrath to Come ------ Tribulation is God Wrath ?

Matthew 24:22 - And Except those days be Shortened, There should no flesh be saved, For the Elect's sake those days shall be Shortened. { What ever is going on during this Great Tribulation - God is the one Who Stops this Event - Or every one would Die - So by this verse and Revelation 7,14 - Came out of the of great Tribulation - I have to recheck - That Came out has to do with going Through. }
---RichardC on 10/2/12


In the Bible there is no plain clear statement that Jesus will resurrect His Bride church just before the great tribulation. The Holy Spirit, if this teaching were so important and He really wants us to believe this, could easily have inspired a Canon scripture writer to say anything like "Jesus will come back before the tribulation." Nowhere is any such clear statement or like it in the New Testament. Therefore, I have to consider that a "pre-trib" resurrection of the church is not a part of our New Covenant payed for by the blood of Jesus. It is an added thing, not stated in the Bible like we hear people claiming it. So, it is added to what is clearly stated in our New Covenant.
---willie_c: on 10/2/12


//Jesus does not do this.

WE do, and escort Him back to earth when He lands on the Mount of Olives to begin the Last Judgement.//

Makes no sense
BCV please
---michael_e on 10/2/12


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The "great tribulation" Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:15-23 was a particular event that has come and gone in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 after His crucifixion. Prior to His death as He was walking to Calvary, He warned, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children." Luke 23:28.

God's vengeance fell on Jerusalem for His Son's death.

As for the Christians, didn't Christ tell us, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33, ie. tribulations will be in abundance till Christ come for us.

Don't be fooled by the dispensationalists.
---christan on 10/2/12


Just as Enoch was "taken", removed before JUDGEMENT fell during Noah's time, no word rapture here, but all the same, is and proved that God can AND WILL remove His Church, His BODY before His wrath.

And yes, we will escort Him back at His second Coming to earth when He then sets up His 1000 year reign as we will reign and rule with Him at that time.

The FINAL Judgement is after the 1000 years when Satan is loosed for a while.

Rev 10:7 is the last or 7th trump, and the "MYSTERY of God" is Complete. The Church, His Body is the "Mystery of God"...Colossians 2

Mid Trib, is a possibility.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/12


1Th 4:17 Then we..shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

"caught up" G726 harpazo
to seize.

Mt 11:12 and the violent take it by force [G726]
Mt 13:19 and catcheth [G726] away that which was sown in his heart.
Jn 6:15 Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force [G726]
Jn 10:12 and the wolf catcheth [G726] them
Jn 10:28 , neither shall any [man] pluck [G726] them out of my hand.
Ac 8:39 the Spirit of the Lord caught away[G726] Philip
Ac 23:10 and to take him by force [G726] from among them.

We will be snatched away, like a wolf and its prey. Forcefully, swiftly, in the blink of an eye, and changed to inhabit the heavens.
---Phil on 10/2/12


Lot was removed, Noah was removed, and we will be removed from the earth before judgment comes against Israel and the nations.

The Holy Spirit will be removed, the Two Witnesses alone testifying and convicting.

The temple of God, which temple we are, cannot be present in the chaos.

Grace and mercy will never be found operating together with judgment and destruction. They are opposite actions on God's part.

We are not appointed unto indignation, we will not be present during the time of Jacob's trouble.
---Phil on 10/2/12


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\\1 Thes 4:16-18 gives a clear description of the rapture. There are a number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." \\

But it does not say it happens BEFORE the tribulation, does it?

The key word is "descend", which does not mean "to make a u-turn in mid-air."

Jesus does not do this.

WE do, and escort Him back to earth when He lands on the Mount of Olives to begin the Last Judgement.

1 Thess. and Zech. are talking about two parts of the same event.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/12


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly not the scene in Zechariah 12-14 when the Lord comes and sets His foot upon the Mount of Olives...
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


It amazing that some question the validity of the rapture, simply because the word doesn't appear in the Bible.
1 Thes 4:16-18 gives a clear description of the rapture. There are a number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible."
God's Word was written in Hebrew and Greek, there are no English words in the Bible

1 Thes 4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois
---michael_e on 10/1/12


\\The erroneous suggestion that the Church will go through the tribulation period is an argument based primarily on Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Matthew 24:9-13 \\

In other words, to go by the words of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ as recorded in the Holy Gospel leads to error.

Is this what you are saying?

You forgot Matthew 13's Parable of the Wheat and Tares. Note carefully there that Jesus does NOT say that the Wheat is gathered 7 days (or 1007 days) before harvest time, but the TARES get gathered first.

In the same chapter with the parable of the dragnet, it's BAD FISH that go sailing through the air.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/12


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There is no rapture there is a resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 "and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:12,21,52 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/1/12


The erroneous suggestion that the Church will go through the tribulation period is an argument based primarily on Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Matthew 24:9-13 This logically leads Christians to a critical view of their role in society, and the necessity of preparedness for the inevitable. Christians are advised to store food, isolate from society (or governments), and plan to protect their families. The focus is on the coming Antichrist, not the coming of Jesus Christ. Such notions are contrary to what Jesus commanded believers, and hinders the Christian from winning a lost world.
---michael_e on 10/1/12


What we do know Matt is WE are saved from the Wrath to come. That WRATH is the Great tribulation period. The OT speaks many times about the Day of the Lord..the DAY of His WRATH.

The Great Tribuation is GOD's WRATH.

So, Pre Trib, or Mid Trib, We knwo at that time we will meet Christ in the Clouds. Not here on earth.

The 2nd Coming is when Jesus comes back to earth. Acts 1:11
---kathr4453 on 10/1/12


Isaac Watts once wrote:

"Shall I be carried to the clouds on flow'ry beds of ease
While others fought to win the prize and sailed through bloody seas?"

The rapturist says, "I said it! You'd better believe it!"

Those who are looking for a pre-trib rapture will be the first to fall down and worship the Antichrist when s/he appears.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/12


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If one wants to believe in a pre-trib rapture, put their Bible down, don't open it, and study depensationalism until you have it and then read the Bible.

BTW, Pre-trib is not in the
Bible. Pre-trib is an assumption based on assumptions.

Pre-tribers are inconsistent, one time they'll say the Gospel writers didn't know anything of the church, and the next moment they will quote them to prove their point.
---Rod4Him on 10/1/12


Those who don't understand the church as unique in the program of God will be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)
The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9, 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
The Church won't be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

It's clear there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
---michael_e on 10/1/12


Revelation 7,14 - And i said unto him, Sir , thou Knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood Of the Lamb.

Follower OF Christ 9/30/12 - There no such thing as the rapture, So you can end your Debate ?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 - THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds. to meet the Lord in the Air : and we shall we ever be with the Lord.


CAUGHT UP - The Greek word is Harpazo - Translated - Raplemur - Out of this word people came up with the Word Rapture.
---RichardC on 10/1/12


The Tribulation and the celebration of The Feast of the Ingathering and The Feast of The Firstfruits {fruit of the womb 144,000} and The Great Tribulation Trumpets {remembering Jerico} are written.

The gog and magog commerce wars with the nations on the earth are written to precede the rulership period the false prophet gog which was set to 1335 days or 44 1/2 months or 3 17/24 years.
---yohannes_estoniesque on 10/1/12


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Matt, It has been explained and revealed through one of GOD's modern holy Prophets that there will be TWO Raptures, not just one. Other Teachers understand and teach this also, 'though it's not the majority. The first Rapture will be Pre-Trib and will contain FEW Believers in comparison. For, only a few will be ready, without spot or wrinkle. The Second Rapture will be sometime Mid-Trib, before the Great Trib starts. That one will consist of MANY. The first Rapture will be for the "Bride of CHRIST". The Second for those who are called "Wedding Guests". For there will be a Marriage Ceremony for the Lamb, the Bridegroom in Heaven while the Tribulation is taking place down below on Earth.
---Gordon on 10/1/12


1st Cor. chapter 15 and 1 Thes. chapter 4 give us the clearest picture of the return of Christ.

Through the scriptures we read of Christ coming to earth to live and die and be raised from the dead, and we read of his second coming, but not his third or fourth etc. Many people would have Christ going up and down like an elevator, but that is just not scriptural.

He is coming back one more time to take his children (the elect family of God) home, and to judge the wicked.

THE END.
---trey on 10/1/12


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

From this verse we know that:
1: There will be a time of trouble
2: It is at this time that God's people will be delivered
3: God's people here not being Jews, but rather EVERYONE whose name is in the book of life

So based on this verse, we know that God's people will indeed be in the great time of trouble
---francis on 9/30/12


there is no such thing as a rapture so you can end your debate, in fact rapture is never mentioned in holy scripture!! there is a resurrection to life when the Lord returns after the wrath of God and Satan are finished. God does promise safety for those who obey him. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
---Follower_of_Christ on 9/30/12


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Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, ...

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: ....
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels...and they shall gather together his elect...

So here we see that the second coming will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION

Next we must place the second coming and the resurrection

If they happen on the same day then there is no pre trib rapture

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up...

If we are alive and remain AFTER the tribulation when we are raptured, then there is no pre tribulation rapture, believers will go through the tribulation
---francis on 10/1/12


Since the word rapture isn't Biblically found, it Is the secret calling away of His chosen ones, 1st.Cor.15 v 52. Whether it will be in the begining, a 1/4 part, a 1/2 part, 3/4ths part of the tribulation, only God Knows.
Receive Acts 2 v 38, Matt.24 v 13 & be - stay ready.
---Lawrence on 10/1/12


You find nothing in the Bible supporting a pre-trib rapture because it's not in there.

Jesus said, "I pray that you do NOT take them out of this world, but keep them safe from evil."

The rapturist prays, "You don't listen to Jesus! You take us out of this world, God."

What do YOU think is going to happen?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/12


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