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Separation Of Church State

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Ruben: Eliakim in Isaiah 22:15-22 is not a "type of Peter", he is a "type of Christ":

Revelation 3:7 ... These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Isaiah 9:6 .., to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince ...

Eliakim was to become prime minister. Shebna seems to have been a "type of Judas" in that he had charge of the purse, and may have sought his own profit from it (John 12:6). Also, it has been said that he intended to hand Israel over to Sennacherib.
---John_II on 1/4/13


Ruben: You say, "Was he also playing on words when he said "and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The verse being Matthew 16:19.

Could it be that Jesus turned to the rest of the disciples as He said this? Doubtful, but each disciple must have relived Jesus words, "Blessed are you [disciple name], for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." by Matthew 18:18

So you teach that Matt 16:16-20 is about Peter succeeding Jesus in office. So, what is Jesus' role in the church if He promptly passed on His power to Peter? Isn't this about replacement? Someone in the stead of Christ?
---John_II on 1/4/13


I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion if U guys don't mind.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,

These were the only offices established in the church. Apostles and prophets were not replaced when they passed on. Judas was only replaced because he "fell" "by transgression" (Acts 1:25).

Now the only offices left are evangelists and pastors /teachers (Elders). There is also the office of Deacon (acts 6).
All congregations are now autonomous with elders teaching and leading the church.

Thanks, I enjoy the discussion.
---StephenOiy on 1/4/13


cluny, I can't believe some of the things you say. so you won't talk to anyone who don't believe your doctrine? maybe you could show them in the bible where they are wrong. sometimes you have such condesending comments. please......cool it
---shira4368 on 1/4/13


John II, if you were truly saved and had the mind of Christ, you would be able to tell the spiritual truth of what I'm saying.

But since the Bible says not to answer according to someone's folly, and to reject a heretic after 2 and 3 admonitions, I have nothing more to say to you, since you will not accept sound doctrine.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/3/13




John_II* Ruben:

1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Re Matt 16:18? It cannot be Peter as the foundation (reread above).

Please read Eph 2:20:

yes Jesus is the foundation ,

"Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:"


John_II *Answer: Peter was the 1st of many rocks (Matt 16:17) - even in another foundational layer (Eph 2:20) -

Peter is the 'only' one who is call 'ROCK' and given the Keys!

"
Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas"(ROCK) ( Jhn 1:42)
---Ruben on 1/3/13


Ruben:

1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Re Matt 16:18? It cannot be Peter as the foundation (reread above). Answer: Peter was the 1st of many rocks (Matt 16:17) - even in another foundational layer (Eph 2:20) - to be built upon the Foundation. Some rocks, or stones, may have different uses in the construction, but each are as important as any other, cf. 1 Cor 12:12-27, & 28:
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers ...

As Peter said, "As you come to him, the living Stone, you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house ...."
---John_II on 1/3/13


Cluny: Has Orthodoxy "turned the world upside down" (Acts 17:6)? You boast that Orthodoxy is, "functioning in all her fullness", that's pitiful. You say every "Holy Sacrament" is "concerned with binding and loosing". Only true if your faith is in men. Yet, that is where your faith is, and tremendously in yourself:

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

Proverbs 28:26 He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

Psalm 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man, he knows that they are futile.

If you but trusted in what is written, your Orthodoxy wouldn't be dead in the water. Hardly wise.
---John_II on 1/3/13


Cluny * Ruben, my dad used to say that the Keys to the Kingdom are the Holy Sacraments. Every one of them is concerned with binding and loosing.

Not sure why he would use them, I would had show you in Acts 15 Peter "rose" and declared that circumcision was not necessary.."all kept silent."

Compare Isaiah 22:15-22(keys pass from Shebna to Eliakim) to what Jesus said Mt 16:16-19 and you will see Jesus establishes an office. You of all would know Binding and loosing are rabbinical terms that are reserved for only church leaders and we have a great example of this in Mt 23:2-4-where Jesus says " Do whatever they tell you", here the Pharisees have authority to bind and loose under the Old Covenant.
---Ruben on 1/3/13


\\John_II* Who doesn't know that the 'keys' given to Peter was permission for him to "open the door" to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46)? \\

I won't argue with this. It's true as far as it goes.

Ruben, my dad used to say that the Keys to the Kingdom are the Holy Sacraments. Every one of them is concerned with binding and loosing.

John II--please do NOT use text speech on here when you are writing on serious spiritual subject, such as using U for the pronoun "you."

Writing like an airheaded teen means you're thinking like an airheaded teen.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/3/13




our government has turned their back on God and I'm not sure God will even listen to us. I have harped on that many times on christianet but all I get is an argument and confrontation. I will always stand up for the constitution.
---shira4368 on 1/3/13


\\Now if U say this isn't true, then you don't have any biblical call for bishops in the church. All you have is the tradition of men.\\

As I said, the Orthodox Church has never gone by sola scriptura, as she was functioning in all her fullness before ONE WORD of the NT was ever written down. The separation between episcopoi and presbyteroi were made very early, as can be seen in the letters of St. Ignatios of Antioch.

Furthermore, don't quote Greek words at me if you can't transliterate them properly.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him.
---Cluny on 1/2/13


John_II* Who doesn't know that Christ is the Rock (1 Cor 10:4, Dan 2:45) and that Peter means "bit of rock"?

It does? Cephas is a "bit of Rock" At least you did not deny it:)

John_II* And that Jesus was playing on words?

Was he also playing on words when he said "and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John_II* Who doesn't know that the 'keys' given to Peter was permission for him to "open the door" to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46)?

Compare Isaiah 22:15-22 to MT 16:16-20- The text actually shows succession of an office!
---Ruben on 1/2/13


Cluny: U retorted, "Nor can you disprove it from Scripture, either. And NOWHERE in Scripture or Church History are presbyters and bishops considered the same grade of ministry."

Acts 20:17 to 28 From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. ... he said to them, ... "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, ...."

Elder (man): presbyterous

Overseer (function): episkopous

Overseers are traditionally the bishopric. Now if U say this isn't true, then you don't have any biblical call for bishops in the church. All you have is the tradition of men.
---John_II on 1/2/13


-John_II on 1/2/13
Here is the model that the church has always followed:
xodus 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Exodus 18:26 And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

Deuteronomy 1:15 So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.
---francis on 1/2/13


\\appoint and ordain are totally different. my pastor can appoint me to some project but he can't ordain me. I am a woman and ordaining a woman is NOT biblical.\\

Not when you're talking about elders/presbyters.

Happy New Year!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/2/13


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francis: A hierarchical church has higher ranks/orders than the shepherd appointment, a congregational one is independent of such.

Matt 10:24,25 A student is not above his teacher, .... It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, .... ....

That's the top rank.

So become like your teacher:
Heb 13:7 Remember your leaders, .... Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Who should be imitating Paul, who imitated Christ:
1 Cor 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Who Himself is the High Rank/Order with our crowns:
1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
---John_II on 1/2/13


John_II* Why would Christ build His Church having man as the foundation?
1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ask him:

The household of God has as its foundation the apostles and prophets in Eph. 2:20. If Peter is the head of the apostles, then the Catholic interpretation perfectly fits.


John_II* Otherwise you have an aberrant form of the body being above the head - which is Rome.

Not above but one who Christ himself left to lead!
---Ruben on 1/2/13


There are no writing by the early chirtians about the SDA, but plenty about the Catholic Church!
---Ruben on 1/2/13

Really? No writting about anyone who keep the sabbath ( 7TH DAY) and looked forward to the advent of jesus (Adventist)

Nothing at all in ALL the bible about keeping the 7th day holy, and nothing in ALL the bible about waiting for the second comming of jesus?

There was NO group of people in history or the bible who did BOTH these things?

HHHMMM well i'll be
---francis on 1/2/13


appoint and ordain are totally different. my pastor can appoint me to some project but he can't ordain me. I am a woman and ordaining a woman is NOT biblical.
---shira4368 on 1/2/13


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SDA church is the furthest from the RCC in doctrine, practice
---francis on 12/30/12

There are no writing by the early chirtians about the SDA, but plenty about the Catholic Church!

'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).
---Ruben on 1/2/13


\\Cluny: You say, 'The scripture you quoted says that St. Titus was to ordain elders.'

No it doesn't, it says, 'appoint', not 'ordain'. Basically to set in place someone in Titus' stead, by prayer & fasting & trust (Acts 14:23, 1 Cor 4:2).\\

And just what do you think is involved in ordination? DUH!

||You continue, 'The ordination of presbyters has always been one of the duties of a bishop.'

You cannot conclude this from Scripture.\\

Nor can you disprove it from Scripture, either.

And NOWHERE in Scripture or Church History are presbyters and bishops considered the same grade of ministry.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/1/13


---John_II on 1/1/13
There is ALWAYS someone in authority in God's church

2 Cor 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us...to reach even unto you.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls,

EQUALITY in Christ for ALL people male/female, Jew / Greek, bond / free

Not equality in office, someone is always in authority and have the rule over you in God's house

Those in authority appoint and ordain others to office.
The deacons do not hire and fire the Pastor, the Pastor hold a higher office, he ordains deacons.

Now in God's economy, those in the highest office are the lowest servants
---francis on 1/1/13


Cluny: You say, 'The scripture you quoted says that St. Titus was to ordain elders.'

No it doesn't, it says, 'appoint', not 'ordain'. Basically to set in place someone in Titus' stead, by prayer & fasting & trust (Acts 14:23, 1 Cor 4:2).

You continue, 'The ordination of presbyters has always been one of the duties of a bishop.'

You cannot conclude this from Scripture.

You go on, 'YOU have offered no scriptural proof that it is not, though we see it happening in the very scripture you quoted.'

I gave you Titus 1:5 'elders/bishops' and 1:7 'overseers' - the same office.

Now if you won't cleave to sola scriptura, is it any wonder why Orthodoxy goes nowhere - except Rome.
---John_II on 1/1/13


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francis:

1 Cor 4:6 ... "Do not go beyond what is written." ....
There isn't anything written in Titus to conclude that he had a higher rank than the elders.

Even Paul was quick to 'demote' himself from position of prelate:
1 Peter 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, ....

In fact, warnings about prelates/diocesans is written (Matt 20:24-27 & Mark 10:41-45), for there ought not to be a hierarchy in the church.

The servant simply needs to be blameless and trustworthy in order to lead God's family:
1 Cor 4:1,2 ... regard us as servants ... as those entrusted with the secret things of God. ... those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
---John_II on 1/1/13


\\Now, you declared, "Actually, ordaining presbyters (elders) is one of the duties of a bishop, along with ordaining deacons."

And then, of course, offer no Scripture whatsoever.\\

If you were truly born again, John II, you would know that spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

The scripture you quoted says that St. Titus was to ordain elders. The ordination of presbyters has always been one of the duties of a bishop.

YOU have offered no scriptural proof that it is not, though we see it happening in the very scripture you quoted.

OTOH, Orthodoxy has never claimed "sola scriptura," so we don't have to play by that rule at all.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/1/13


Cluny: An overseer is a bishop is an elder is a pastor/shepherd is a presbyter. The office is the same: lead the flock, not lead the leaders of the flock, for there is only one Great Shepherd (1 Peter 1:1-5). The appointment coming by the criteria set out in Titus 1:6-9 & 1 Tim 3:1-7, with no great ceremony: "appoint" not "ordain".

Now, you declared, "Actually, ordaining presbyters (elders) is one of the duties of a bishop, along with ordaining deacons."

And then, of course, offer no Scripture whatsoever.

So, I say to you: "Actually"?

There is no office for prelates/diocesans (who you like to believe are bishops), as Titus 1:5-7 makes clear.
---John_II on 1/1/13


Overseers/pastors/elders/presbyters - all the same, viz Acts 20:17, 20:28
---John_II on 12/31/12



St. Titus was the first bishop of Crete.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/12

Good post fella's

happy New year
---francis on 1/1/13


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Cluny:

Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

It's hard enough with the wolves getting into the pulpits, but once you allow for an unscriptural hierarchy, then it is profoundly harder preventing another hierarchy from taking over your church. A wolf in the pulpit can be identified, but a wolf in a diocese is a cuckoo in the nest. If Rome manages to place a leader-of-leaders in among you, then it remains to disseminate its subversive Catholic doctrine down through the ranks, believed because it's "high-order" stuff, which is the case in the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox and SDA churches. All machiavellianly simple when we think about it.
---John_II on 1/1/13


francis: Paul's ministry was a unique one, an apostolic ministry of the inspirited and gifted kind - in order to found the church:

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Titus was an evangelist:

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

Only the offices of pastor/teachers and additional deacons are in the Bible (Titus 1:5-9, 1 Tim 3:1-13):

Philippians 1:1 ... To all the saints in Christ Jesus .., together with the overseers and deacons:

Overseers/pastors/elders/presbyters - all the same, viz Acts 20:17, 20:28
---John_II on 12/31/12


\\Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete,.. set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee\\

Actually, ordaining presbyters (elders) is one of the duties of a bishop, along with ordaining deacons.

St. Titus was the first bishop of Crete.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/12


2 Cor 11:28 the care of all the churches.
Paul had the care of "ALL" the churches, he ordained pastors regionally, bishops and deacons to serve local congregations

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete,.. set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee

Here you see Paul, commandning his pastor to ordain elders in every city

The elders worked with local congegations, the pastors regionally, and Paul in all the churches

Exodus 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Leadership at every level John_II
---francis on 12/30/12


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---John_II on 12/30/12
if there is only denomination that is unlike the RCC it is the SDA church.
1: RCC teaches go to heaven at moment of death SDA do not
2: RCC teaches sunday as the Lord's say SDA do not
3: RCC teaches that the soul is immortal SDA do not
4: RCC teaches that you sprinkle water and you baptize, SDA do not
5: RCC teaches that you can eat what God called unclean, SDA do not
6: RCC has many statues in thier buildings, SDA do not
7: RCC teach that their preist cannot get married, SDA has no such teaching

Too many more for 125 word blog. Try something else,
SDA church is the furthest from the RCC in doctrine and practice
---francis on 12/30/12


Something else I didn't have the space to say.

The Novatian schism was over how lapsed Christians could be reconciled with the Church--or even if they SHOULD be.

This was strictly a pastoral and disciplinary matter, and had nothing to do with doctrine.

trey, when you try to argue with me about Church history, you're out of your depth. So don't try.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/12


francis: The unscriptural passed from mother to daughter:
Roman SDA - Courtesy of RemnantOfGod

Hierarchical, not congregational as per Acts 20:28
Class society (clergy & laity), not a classless priesthood as per 1 Peter 2:9
A supreme pastor, cardinals and nuns, not just overseers and deacons as per Philippians 1:1
Sacerdotal mediators, not Christ alone as per 1 Timothy 2:5
Church has sole authority, not discretionary between goer and church as per Matthew 18:17

Is it any wonder why Rome wants the SDA to be known as the last bastion of Protestantism?

Harlot daughters of harlot mothers don't always get on, but, as the Bible teaches: like mother, like daughter!
---John_II on 12/30/12


John_II on 12/30/12

You have asked me many questions, and I have answered them.
Now may I please ask you one question in this blog:

Thanks

Whatis the origin of the phrease " when in Rome, do as Rome does."
---francis on 12/30/12


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Ruben: You said, "... with Christ's choice to build His Church upon the rock of Peter, in Rome and Peter alone was given the 'Keys' to the Kingdom of Heaven."

Why would Christ build His Church having man as the foundation?
1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Otherwise you have an aberrant form of the body being above the head - which is Rome.

Who doesn't know that Christ is the Rock (1 Cor 10:4, Dan 2:45) and that Peter means "bit of rock"? And that Jesus was playing on words?

Who doesn't know that the 'keys' given to Peter was permission for him to "open the door" to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46)?
---John_II on 12/30/12


WRONG on every point, trey.

The Novatians (note the proper spelliing) were a local schism in Rome who did not agree with how lapsed Christians should be reconciled.

The Paulicians were the followers of the heretic Paul of Samosata who did not teach rightly about the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Monatanists were a charismatic cult who did NOT rebaptize people who came from Orthodoxy.

The Waldenses could not have been Baptists because they became Presbyterians in the USA and recently merged with the Methodists in Italy--both of whom are pedobaptists.

The Anabaptists baptized by sprinkling or pouring.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/12


Sister Shira, Here are some names for you:
Novations, Montanists, Paulicians and Waldenses. These are early names for the Ana-Baptist (Ana-Baptist meaning to rebaptize because they "re-baptized" Catholic converts.)
This is the group that the Catholics and others killed by the millions down through the ages.
This denomination, although called by many different names was established before the Methodist, the Calvanist, the Lutherans, the Church of Christ, the LDS, the SDA, and even the RCC.

Mt16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
---trey on 12/29/12


After all, SDA is a daughter of Rome.
---John_II on 12/28/12
Based on what?
You just posting what you wish because you can.

Ok let's all do that

Mitt won the elections not Obama

The price of tea is China is the same as the price of tea on South Africa

Gold and silver are exactly the same
---francis on 12/28/12


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francis: Being that it is Roman Catholics who are resignedly saying, "Oh, the only real Protestant church is the Seventh Day Adventist one" should be enough to make you storm into being a reformer yourself. Besides, didn't we clear this matter up? That of Sabbatarianism being unscriptural?

blog: 1351686714 Title: Brought you nearer to God

Particularly the exchanges between you, Jerry6593 and I.

The fact that you are still hailing SDA as the one true church means that you being deliberate in the teaching of error. After all, SDA is a daughter of Rome.
---John_II on 12/28/12


1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Baptism was before John
---francis on 12/28/12


//Actually, St. John did NOT invent baptism. It was the Jewish rite of mikveh, part of converting a Gentile to Judaism//

Cluny, you don't actually have any biblical evidence of this thought do you?
---michael_e on 12/28/12


cluny, I don't know where you get that from. john the baptist told whoever that he was not worthy to unlatch Jesus shoes....remember??? tell me where you got your information. I am baptist because I am identified as to what I believe. if you go to a non denominational church, you have a bunch of beliefs all rolled up together and no one can know what they believe. I can tell you one thing...you are not a baptist.
---shira4368 on 12/28/12


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cluny, sorry to tell you john the baptist was the "first" baptist. I'm surprised you didn't know that since you are so educated and use these big words in your answers. I have to get my dictionary out to decipher your comments. I never said the baptist came from john the baptist but I can also tell you so one has been able to trace where the baptist came from. I bet you know don't you??
---shira4368 on 12/27/12


BTW, shira, you don't think that John was called "the Baptist" because he was a member of the Baptist Church, do you?

Actually, St. John did NOT invent baptism. It was the Jewish rite of mikveh, part of converting a Gentile to Judaism he was doing. It's also done at other times, especially by a woman after her period.

In effect, St. John was saying, "Just because you are descended from Abraham, you are no better than those Gentiles who worship idols."

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/12


Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

church in the wilderness was the first church
Catholic church is apostasy ( see Daniel 7,Revelation 17:4 )
ALL denominations that keep sunday as " the lord's day" are protestant( NOT CHRISTIANS). Their doctrine is not from the bible, but their protest of the RCC doctrines. they retain must of the apostacy of the RCC
---francis on 12/17/12


Wrong again, MarkV. ORTHODOXY was.

That's why I insist that francis is a true child of his mother Rome--because he assumes that the Roman Catholic church was first. It wasn't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/12


Perhaps Francis meant it has to do with Christ's choice to build His Church upon the rock of Peter, in Rome and Peter alone was given the 'Keys' to the Kingdom of Heaven. Early Church Fathers from West and East had no problem making that claim!
---Ruben on 12/17/12


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\\everyone knows baptist were the first demonination. john the baptist was beheaded for his beliefs.\\

Did you know there is a sect in Persia called the Mandeans? These are the disciples of John the Baptist, who think that John was the true Messiah. In other words--the true original Baptists.


Baptists are a denomination. Orthodoxy is PRE-denominational.

Christianity is founded on the life, death, and Resurrection of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't think John the Baptist said a WORD about this, as he was beheaded BEFORE Christ died and resurrected.

Would you like to try again?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/12


everyone knows baptist were the first demonination. john the baptist was beheaded for his beliefs. I do know christians were first called christians at antioch. actually I had to say that about baptist but I really don't know what the first denomination was called.
---shira4368 on 12/17/12


\\The Roman Catholic Church was the first,\\

Wrong again, MarkV. ORTHODOXY was.

That's why I insist that francis is a true child of his mother Rome--because he assumes that the Roman Catholic church was first. It wasn't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/12


Cluny:

The problem is that different people have different ideas about what is important. In many cases, theolgians have heated theological arguments about things that are of no earthly relevance (for example, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin).

As I understand it, the Orthodox church split from the Roman church over the "filoque". I am still confused about just what relevance that has. Is there anything at all in life that one would do differently if it were true than if it wasn't? If not, it really isn't that important.
---StrongAxe on 10/13/12


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Cluny, you first said:

"Only Orthodoxy is the pre-denominational Church."

You are actually the second denomination in history. The Roman Catholic Church was the first, and then the Eastern Catholic Church was the second. And no denomination was sanction by Jesus Christ, because in the Church of Christ there was to be no ruler but Jesus Christ Himself. He is the Head of the body of Christ which is the Church. It took over a thousand years for the Easter Church to split from the Roman Catholic Church, forming the second denomination.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/12


\\"Unfortunately, in many cases, such splits were not over vital issues, but rather over petty hair-splitting, choking on gnats..,"\\

What is choking on gnats to one person is standing up for the purity of the Faith to another.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/12


Strongaxe, welcome back. Second, your absolutely correct. You said,
"Unfortunately, in many cases, such splits were not over vital issues, but rather over petty hair-splitting, choking on gnats..,"
We had a couple who one day the sister wanted to do a good deed, have some kind of party four hours after church services and brought it to the Pastor. He checked all possibilities and so found the timing wrong, explained to them why it wasn't possible. In a week they left the church angry. The pastor had an obligation to the church. They left for reasons that were petty.
Steven told me once he was not helped by a church when he needed help, and now his been bashing all the Churches.
---Mark_V. on 10/10/12


Alicia:

The commandment to "come out of her" is the very reason why there ARE so many denominations. In many cases, a Christian leader would see that the church that he was in was going the wrong way, and if it was impossible to get them to change direction, he chose rather to separate and follow the right path (at least as he saw it).

Unfortunately, in many cases, such splits were not over vital issues, but rather over petty hair-splitting (i.e. choking on gnats), and/or over vain personal issues (for example, Henry VIII split from Rome because the Pope wouldn't let him divorce a wife he was tired of).
---StrongAxe on 10/9/12


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StevenG you are most accurate. I have witnessed it & ppl just do not realize it b/c they have been sent the strong delusion b/c they choose to believe a lie instead of the truth. everyone has it in their minds if you don't go to the church building you can't be saved well in Revelation God says "come out of her" which is indeed the institutional churches. The spirits in MOST.I would say 98.9% of churches are led by demonic spirits.division is not of God.over half of what goes on in church Jesus is weeping over. It's a showcase, a mockery, a BUSINESS.a place where a sinner comes in and leaves as one.even those who SAY they are Christians.no conviction anymore!! They are comfortable in their pews...NO FEAR OF GOD IN their eyes.
---Alicia on 10/9/12


\\Steven G, you are very wrong when you say,

"All worldly denominational churches (dchurch) are a creation of Satan. Satan has succeeded into dividing the "christians" up into their own cults each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible."\\

That includes the Church of SteveG.

Only Orthodoxy is the pre-denominational Church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/12


Steven G, you are very wrong when you say,

"All worldly denominational churches (dchurch) are a creation of Satan. Satan has succeeded into dividing the "christians" up into their own cults each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible."

It is you who is trying to succeed in dividing Christians. Satan doesn't have to do anything, you are. Every time you speak against the Church you divide the Church. In fact people divide, all by themselves. You are trying to put the blame on Satan, just like Eve did. At God's Judgment, he will find the individuals guilty for what they did. They won't be able to blame satan. Take responsibility. Look it up on the computer.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/12


All worldly denominational churches (dchurch) are a creation of Satan.

Satan has succeeded into dividing the "christians" up into their own cults each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible.

The meaning of "church" is a lot different today than it was 2,000 years ago. The dchurch is nothing but a building having assets (This is confirmed when you hear, "Did you go to church today?" "I didn't see you at church today.") and is owned by the government (IRS: "you do what we tell you or we'll revoke your nonprofit status.").

The true church is people - who believe. Fellowship is anywhere two or more are gathered in Jesus' name.
---Steveng on 10/7/12


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Cluny, sorry to tell you but Jesus Christ did not create denominations. Just not true. The churches in their goverment and discipline to be entirely separate and independent of each other. Jerusalem to have no authority over Antioch, nor Antioch over Ephesus, nor Ephesus over Corinth, and so forth. Their goverment to be congregational, democratic. A goverment of the People, by the people and for the people. No Hierarchy in the Church, for Christ is on the throne, He and He alone is on the throne.
---Mark_V. on 10/6/12


\\4. Its polity (Congregationsal) all members equal\\

WRONG! Her polity is EPISCOPAL.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/12


Bro. Christan, thank you for your comments. You are right on. The marks of the New Testament Church,
1. It's Head and founder is Christ. He is the lawgiver, the Church is only the executive (Matt. 16:18: Col. 1:18).
2. It's only rule of Faith and practice is the Bible (2 Tim. 3:15-17)
3. Its name "Church," or "Churches" (Matt. 16:18: Rev. 22:16)
4. Its polity (Congregationsal) all members equal (Matt. 20:24-28: Matt. 23:5-12).
5. Its members- only saved people (Eph. 2:21: 1 Peter 2:5) Its officers- Pastors and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-18)
6. its weapons of warfare-spiritual, "not carnal" (2 Cor. 10:4: Eph. 6:10-20)."
7. Its independence- separation of Church and State (Matt. 22:21).
---Mark_V. on 10/5/12


Unless God Almighty first separates you from the "prince of the power of the air", you will always be one with this world that's been handed to him. The Scriptures doesn't lie, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Ephesians 2:3

Christ didn't come into this world to preach politics nor did he get involved with politics. That wasn't His mission. And neither should that be for one who calls himself a Christian.
---christan on 10/4/12


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Most christian businesses will conform, having profits above beliefs, but a few brave hearts will close their business for their beliefs before they conform to the political correctiveness of the government.

By the way, christians are not to get involved with any type of protesting.
---Steveng on 10/4/12


How about the religious bigotry that liberals (even Christian ones) take from some conservative Christians who equate Conservatism with godliness and liberalsm with Satan? Isn't that just as bad?
---StrongAxe on 10/4/12


That statement is flawed on so many levels.
---Jed on 10/4/12


Cluny, the monarch IS the head of the Church of England
---NurseRobert on 10/4/12


Jed wrote:

However, it is long overdue for Christians in the United State to take a stand against the religious bigotry they experience from the liberals in this country.

Don't forget, that cuts both ways. How about the religious bigotry that liberals (even Christian ones) take from some conservative Christians who equate Conservatism with godliness and liberalsm with Satan? Isn't that just as bad?
---StrongAxe on 10/4/12


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\\The First Amendment protects all of the churches from have the government interfere with their freedom to worship who or how they worship.\\

It also protects churches from interference from the government in internal matters.

For example, bishops in the Church of England are recommended by the prime minister to the monarch, who technically appoints them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/4/12


willi c, satan is a deceiver going to and fro seeking whom he can. the world is conformed to satan. If you are not a born again christian, you are being influenced by satan. If you don't believe me, just look at hollywood, obama, all the whisky stores that take in money that should be used to feed children. there is corruption everywhere we look. If you are saved, just keep your eyes on Jesus and be careful what your eyes see.
---shira4368 on 10/4/12


Jesus said we Christians will be persecuted, to expect this, I understand. This world is not the church. I find it interesting that there are people who expect Satan's world to conform to us.
---willie_c: on 10/4/12


I would like to know what companies are being forced to do what they don't believe in.

The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution at all. Jefferson used that phrase, I believe in a letter, after the Constitution was already written.

The First Amendment protects all of the churches from have the government interfere with their freedom to worship who or how they worship. It also protects American citizens from the United States becoming a theocracy.
---Trish on 10/3/12


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the seperation of church and state was written for the state. it assured the churches that the government wouldn't enterfere with worship. some people really don't know what that means but the founding fathers knew exactly what they had written. also, president lincoln was saved and planned to tell of his conversion the next sunday but he was assanated before the sunday came.
---shira4368 on 10/3/12


Separation of Church and State is not anywhere in the constitution. It was a phrase that Thomas Jefferson said one time. It is not in any contitution or law.

However, it is long overdue for Christians in the United State to take a stand against the religious bigotry they experience from the liberals in this country.
---Jed on 10/3/12


Like what???????
---atheist on 10/3/12


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