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Cleansed Of Our Sins

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

After we confess our sins, and are cleansed, do we still have those same sins?

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 ---francis on 10/3/12
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"Context of James 5."- Hazzzzzzzzz

None of your parenthetical insertions can be supported. This is eisegesis (introducing one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text).

As highlighted below James repeatedly directs his comments to his believing "Brothers".

James' brothers were "unsaved"? Simply untrue. Read it again:

"Brothers...Is any one of you in trouble? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him...If he has sinned, he will be forgiven...

...Therefore confess your sins to each other... "5:7-19, NIV
---scott on 10/12/12


Christan. You have seen many scriptures now that contradict your doctrine that Christians still sin. And the couple of scriptures you offered to support you I have shown are out of context.

Again I'll ask you and Scott, what 'sin' can we who have been justified by God, be charged with?

Scriptures show that Christ set us free from sin, John 8:36, Rom 6:7. We've 'ceased from sin', 1Pet 4:1. 'Cannot sin', 1John 3:9.
As it's only PAST sin that was forgiven, Rom 3:25, HOW is subsequent sin dealt with (scripture please)? There is no more offering for any sins after coming to Christ, Heb 10:18, so how is subsequent sin dealt with? And what is this 'sin'?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12


Warwick, read my posts again. I answered.

Scott. I answered but your not understanding. I'll try another way.
Jesus (high priest without sin)dealt with sin, ONCE and for ALL mankind. His sacrifice offers: sanctification,perfection,no more conscience of sin Heb 10:2-14. In Christ we have 'ceased'/'cannot' sin, 1Pet4:1, 1John3:9.
Heb 4:15 refers to man BEFORE coming to Christ. Mankind can come boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy. Then we see Rom 8:33 say, Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
So, what charge of sin can be laid against us who are justified by God?

Mark Eaton. Can you answer what Scott refuses to? What determines the 'habitual' level of sin? is it 7x70?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12


"The continual tense."- mark_Eaton (2)

Regarding 1 John 3:6, 9 -

The rendering of 1 John 3:6, 9 in the KJV (and others) fail to reflect the clear fact that the verb there is in the present tense. These renderings fail to carry over into English the continuous action denoted by the present tense of the Greek verbs used.

Rather than saying "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not," with an eye to the Greek grammar, other translations render the verbs accordingly:

"makes a practice of sinning" (CB),

"does not habitually sin," (CB)

"does not practice sin (Ph),

"does not continue to sin" (TEV).
---scott on 10/11/12


Scott. Avoiding answering the many contradictions against your doctrine is unhelpful for you.

The distorted modern translations you follow claim that 'habitual' sin means being of the devil. Simple question. What determines 'habitual'. Is it 7x70?

And please give us the definition of 'sin' that can be charged against us.
Scripture says that we have ceased from sin (1pet 4:1, 1John 3:9) and asks HOW shall we that are dead to sin live in it any longer (Rom 6:2). But you disagree with scripture and claim otherwise. So, what is this 'sin' we can be charged with in spite of God having justified us, Rom 8:33?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12




Haz, you're throwing smoke bombs all over. I have no doubt that Christ came "to die for the sins of His people." BUT only His people whom the Father has given to him, no more no less.

The issue is not unbelief in the Word but after being saved by the grace of God, does the Christian who's still walking on this earth continue to SIN? According to Scripture, the answer is YES! Paul and John wrote about it in their epistles - which obviously you are in complete denial. Who's in unbelief?

Of course the body is dead to sin, it's confirmed we're going back to dust. But before that happens, you're still alive in the flesh, right? So what do you do when you commit a sin? Write it off without repentance to God?
---christan on 10/11/12


"Its just a matter of believing what Jesus came to do for mankind. HE came to put away sin. The sin issue is over." duane

The Bible DECLARES: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

There's a great difference between the term "His people" to that of "mankind", ie not everyone's sin is covered by Christ!

And who are "His people"? Jesus tells us, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

Get your facts right!
---christan on 10/11/12


Scott. Note context of James 5.
Verse 9 'grudge not one against the other (judge by works of law), lest ye be CONDEMNED...'.
Verse 11 'ENDURE'. This speaks of believing on the gospel.
Verse 14, 'is any SICK', speaking of unsaved/lost (Isa 53:5).
Verse 15 the prayer of FAITH will SAVE the sick (unsaved) and the Lord will RAISE HIM UP, a new creation.
Verse 16, referring to those sick (unsaved) can be spiritually healed.

Your silence on the flawed doctrine of 'habitual' sin shows you clearly can't justify it nor answer the many scriptures that contradicts it. If you can't answer and define what sin can be charged against those God justified, then why hold on to such false doctrines?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12


"The continual tense."- mark_Eaton (1)

Agreed!

Notice the difference:

1 John 2:1 reads: "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father". KJV.

The Greek verb for "sin" is in the aorist tense, so the time of the action is momentary. The aorist tense here points to one act of sinning, whereas the present infinitive would indicate the condition of being a sinner or the continuous action in sinning.

Here John does not speak of someone carrying on a practice of sinning, but of one who commits a sin.

See Mt 4:9, where the aorist indicates that the Devil did not ask Jesus to do constant or continuous worship to him, but an act of worship.
---scott on 10/11/12


If you now acknowledge that 1John 3:9 means we 'cannot' sin, then why hold on to flawed doctrine?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12

I must interrupt and express my understanding.

1 John 3:9 does not say we cannot ever sin.

The verse is in a section that spans from verses 2-10. Nearly every verse in this section has the word "practices" in it. This is a habitual or lifestyle of sin. The Greek verbs have a continual tense, meaning the action never stops. This continual tense is used in verse 6 where it says "no one who abides in Him sins". The word sins in Greek has the continual tense.

From this we can understand that a true believer will not have a habitual lifestyle of sin.
---mark_Eaton on 10/11/12




Simple question Haz ~ (Unanswered )

Did Paul (Heb 4:15) make a distinction between those Christians (including himself) that experienced temptation and trials (in the present tense) and the one individual who did it,,,

...without sin, Jesus Christ?

Wonder why Haz avoids answering this simple question?
---scott on 10/11/12


Haz, I find it interesting, and revealing that you will not answer my questions:

Did Jesus die and rise again physically or was that just some spiritual happening?

Did God actually create as He says, and in 6 days, or is that also some spiritual thing?
---Warwick on 10/11/12


"Scripture says we 'cannot sin'.- Hazzzzzzzzzzz

"Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lords coming...be patient and stand firm, because the Lords coming is near. Dont grumble against each other, brothers...

Brothers...take the [example] of the prophets...

...Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray...is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him...the Lord will raise him up....

...If he has sinned, he will be forgiven...

...Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other.... The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:7-19, NIV
---scott on 10/11/12


Scott. Heb 4:15 Christ the high priest is without sin, whereas former priests had to sacrifice for their own sins.

BUT once we become Christians we've 'ceased from sin', 1Pet 4:1, such was Christ's sacrifice. Once we were cleansed there is no more conscience of sins, we're sanctified/perfected Heb 10:2-14

Heb 10:18 "where remissions of these (sins) is, there is NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN".

Unfortunately your trying to interpret Heb 4:15 from a flawed premise that we still sin.

BTW, your continual reluctance to answer my questions suggests that you now have doubts about the accuracy of modern translations. If you now acknowledge that 1John 3:9 means we 'cannot' sin, then why hold on to flawed doctrine?
---Haz27 on 10/11/12


Duane, you said,

"Its just a matter of believing what Jesus came to do for mankind. HE came to put away sin. The sin issue is over."

First, if God took away sin from mankind as you say, everyone is going to heaven. Second, the sin issue is not over, you are still alive in your sinful nature. Your nature has not changed. That nature has to die. Sin is over when you physically die, or when God comes to take away sin forever. It has not happen yet. Everyone who is physically still alive is sinning. All come short of the glory of God. We are sinners saved by the Grace of God. We are forgiven for what we have done in life, and we will be continually be forgiven because we now have an Advocate in the Lord Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/12


Christan. Whilst this imperfect physical is still imperfect, that is not how God sees us. The body is DEAD, because of sin, and this is how God sees it. And He sees Christ in us, and in him is no sin, 1John 3:5. We walk by faith, not by sight. Believe God when He says Christ set us free from sin.

I asked you what sin can Christians be charged with, being justified by God (Rom 8:33) but you have no answer. Isn't this a good thing, that in Christ we're righteous/without sin?
Why are you so determined that those in Christ should be still charged with sin inspite of being justified? You've seen the many scriptures confirming that we've ceased from sin/cannot sin, in Christ. Believe God when He says this.

---Haz27 on 10/11/12


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Haz, you still did not answer my question and do you even know what's "the new creation" pointing to as written by Paul in Corinthians?

Has your flesh transformed into a "new creation" that you don't sin anymore? Has it? Have you stopped lying and lusting for the things of this world? If you haven't, now that you're a "new creation", what's it called? Sinless sin? Maybe you can tell us...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 John 1:8,10

You think the "word" is in you? Think hard again.
---christan on 10/10/12


Simple question Haz~

Did Paul make a distinction between those Christians (including himself) that experienced temptation and trials and the one individual who did it,,,

...without sin?
---scott on 10/10/12


Christan. I, the new creation in Christ, do not sin (1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9). And my body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
What charge of sin can be made against God's elect who He justified (Rom 8:33)? "HOW can we who are DEAD TO SIN, live in it any longer?" Rom 6:2

Scott. The 'weakness' is the flesh, which we once walked in BEFORE Christ. Heb 5:2 describes this as 'ignorant and going astray', and Rom 6:8 'cannot please God'.
Although our old man/flesh has been crucified, it still tries to regain control to turn us back to works/unbelief.

BTW, as there's no answer for the distortions of modern translations of 1John 3:9 do you now admit that their flawed?
---Haz27 on 10/10/12


"Christians are tempted..." Haz27

The word is not "tempted" but rather it is "weakness" from the Greek - 'Astheneia'.

And Strong's defines it (as applied specifically to Heb 4:15b):

"The proclivity to sin". Strong's #769

But more significantly you ignore the fact that Paul's words are non-sensical if he and the other Christians that he refers to as "we" were without sin.

Yes they were ALL tempted but...

...he makes a clear distinction between himself and "us" and the one alone who faced similar trials and temptations "but without sin".

Did Paul make this distinction or not?
---scott on 10/10/12


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"Scripture confirms scripture. I've shown many scriptures confirming that in Christ we cannot sin." Haz

You're right that Scripture confirms Scripture. But it also contradicts your understanding. And that's because you do not understand 1 John 1:8 or any of the Scripture pertaining to sin. Now, I'll ask you one simple question:

Are you now a walking sinless Christian in the flesh on this earth?

"But let your communication be, Yea, yea, Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Matthew 5:37
---christan on 10/10/12


Scott. Regarding Heb 4, yes Christians are tempted. We see this also in Heb 12:1 "the sin that so easily besets us".
Heb 12:15 gives more detail.
"looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God"
Remember it's the sin of UNBELIEF the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Note Heb 4:14 says "hold fast our profession". This is the context it speaks of. Continue to believe the gospel in spite of temptations. Christians are in a wilderness experience just like the Israelites when they left Egypt. Those who endure to the end, believing God's promise, will enter God's rest.

BTW, do you now recognize the modern translations wording on sin for 1John 3:9 is flawed?
---Haz27 on 10/10/12


"Sin"- Haz (1)

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Note the clear distinction that Paul makes here:

Jesus Christ sympathizes with our weaknesses...

Strong's Concordance:

"Weakness" Greek - 'Astheneia' (plural)-

"To restrain corrupt desires, proclivity to sin".

Notably, Strong's specifically applies this very meaning to "Astheneia/Weakness" for Hebrews 4:15. (Not "infirmities" as per KJV, ASV but a "proclivity to sin").

Continued...
---scott on 10/10/12


"Sin"- Haz (2)

Continued...

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15


"As we are" not were.


"Yet without sin".

"Except/But without sin." CEB, GNT


1. Paul and other Christians had/have weaknesses.

2. Paul, Christians and Christ experienced temptation.

3. But only Christ is distinguished as the one alone who experienced those things..."but without sin."
---scott on 10/10/12


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Markv
You seem so defensive on the sin issue. Ive tried to explain that I proclaim what Christ has done for me,that being, Christ has set me free from sin and made me righteous. You on the otherhand, want to proclaim you still being a sinner and made that way through Adam.
The question is, WHO you going to proclaim as to who you are? Is it Adam(sinner) or Jesus Christ.(righteous saint).
I will take my identity from what Jesus has made me and will proclaim it to all, never denying HIS work.
---duane on 10/10/12


Its just a matter of believing what Jesus came to do for mankind. HE came to put away sin. The sin issue is over. To be alive to God we need to be dead to sin. The good news is being freed from sin. Without this, there is no good news. Saying we are yet sinners, after hearing the Gospel and having a new birth in Christ, shows we have not heard or believe the truth about the Cross and resurrection.
Dont be blind, there is something to shout about. God will not imput sin on those of us who have been so blessed through Christ. Our new life is Christ in us.=salvation.
We identify with Christ.
We dont identify with sin.
---duane on 10/10/12


Hi Peter. 'Brother' is not always refering to a fellow Christian, so context is important.

The debate whether Christians 'sin' has been going on for a long time. I don't know if you've followed it for long but many scriptures confirm we have ceased from sin. Hence the few that SEEM to contradict this do so as they're taken out of context.

Also, many apply an ambiguous defintion of sin that is traditionally seen as wrong behavior. BUT, when we use God's definitions of sin we can see why scripture says we 'cannot sin'.

Some definitions of sin:
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17
Transgression of law, 1John 3:4
When you consider such definitions you'll see that we have ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1
---Haz27 on 10/9/12


Haz, first Duane lied and made a bad accusation, now you do the same. Here you say:
"If Christ cleansed and set us free from sin,and we're justified, then why insist we can still be charged with 'sin'?" Christan said, that now there is no condemnation to those in Christ, but he never said you were without sin. Sin will be charged against you at the Judgment Seat Of Christ where rewards are given to believers only. You don't lose your salvation, but you lose rewards you could have had.
"If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).
---Mark_V. on 10/9/12


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Haz27: Your comments on 1John 3:6-9 appear completely correct. But they would then disagree with Jesus words in Matt18:15, which start with 'If your brother sins against you', and does not imply the brother is not a Christian because he sinned against you. There is a similar passage in Lk 17. There is something similar in 1 Jn 5:16).

I only write this to say that while 1 Jn 3:6-9 indicates that we NEVER sin, there are some other passages which imply that give us instruction as to what we are to do if another brother sins against us. As a result, if we are told what to do if our brother sins against us, is there not the possibility that WE may be the brother that sins against another brother?
---Peter on 10/9/12


Daniel 8:14KJV And he said unto me, Unto 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Early Adventists O.R.L. Crosier wandering in a corn field concluded that Jesus instead entered into the heavenly Holy of Holies in heaven and cleansed it of sins in October 1844. Crosier later rejected this view as a misinterpretation of scripture however, that was after Ellen White confirmed his mistaken interpretation in vision.

Biblical scholars today recognize that Daniel 8,14 should be translated as -

And he said to me, For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.

there is no day or cleansing in the verse. The SDA sanctuary theory is based on a mistranslation.
---elee7537 on 10/9/12


Christan. Your error in understanding 1John1:8 is confirmed by it's contradiction of 1John 3:6-9, we 'cannot sin' and those who do sin 'never knew him' and are 'of the devil',.
Scripture confirms scripture. I've shown many scriptures confirming that in Christ we cannot sin.

Rom 8:33 "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies",
BUT you say we can be charged but are unable to show what 'sin' this is.

If Christ cleansed and set us free from sin,and we're justified, then why insist we can still be charged with 'sin'? The body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10 and we're a new creation, righteous in Christ.
We're EITHER righteous OR ungodly/sinner, 1Pet 4:18. We CAN'T be both.

---Haz27 on 10/9/12


"The Law"- Romans 6:14, 7:21-23, 8:2-4, Gal 2:16, 5:3, Heb. 8 (B)

NKJV Study Bible: Continued...

"The first [law] is called "the law of sin" which was operating through his flesh, causing him to sin. Paul, like all other believers, needed another law to overcome "the law of sin"...

"This is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," which makes us "free from the law of sin and death" (8:2). By following this law, believers can actually fulfill the righteous requirements of Gods law (8:4)...

"Which is the third law in this section, it is the standard for human action that corresponds to the righteous nature of God."

Pg 1,777
---scott on 10/9/12


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"The Law"- Romans 6:14, 7:21-23, 25, 8:2-4, Gal 2:16, 5:3, Heb. 8:4 (A)

The NKJV Study Bible:

"Law (Gk. Nomos) (Romans 6:14, 7:21-23, 25, 8:2-4, Gal 2:16, 5:3, Heb. 8:4) Strongs #3551: The Greek term for law here means an inward principle of action - either good or evil - operating with the regularity of a law. The term also designates a standard for a person's life. The apostle Paul described three such laws..."

Continued...
---scott on 10/9/12


Haz, you use Scriptures to justify your believe that you cannot sin in the flesh is so erroneous.

The verses you use refers to Christ's works that was fulfilled at Calvary when "He died for the sins of His people." Yes and ONLY BY FAITH in Christ, the law cannot hold the Christian to account anymore. BUT does it mean the Christian does not sin in the flesh as you insinuate and propagate?

You have a big problem with 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." The "we" John used refers to the Christian and not the unbelievers. Anyways, admonishments in the Epistles are for believers, not unbelievers! Simply put, you're an antinomian.
---christan on 10/9/12


Duane, you give proof you are not without sin just by your statment. You say,
"Some here would rather defend what man or their Church has to say than hear the Spirit and defend the work of the Cross. We are freed from sin through Christ."
You accuse others of defending man or the church, which is a false accusation, which by the way is a lie, not Truth. Show who has? What church? When we say man is a sinner by nature, we are defending God, for only He is sinless, not you nor Haz. I have no problem with you believing you are without sin. You know why? because it is your problem not mine. And we are not trying to convince you that you are a sinner, we know you are.
---Mark_V. on 10/9/12


Some here would rather defend what man or their Church has to say than hear the Spirit and defend the work of the Cross. We are freed from sin through Christ
---duane on 10/8/12


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Christan. Consider what scripture says.

"whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law" Rom 3:19
But, "you are NOT UNDER the law" Gal 5:18
And, "where there is no law there is no transgression"SIN Rom 4:15

BUT "if I build again those things which I destroyed (law), I make myself a transgressor"(SINNER) Gal 2:18

" HOW shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:2
We've "CEASED from sin" 1Pet 4:1, "CANNOT sin" 1John 3:9

"Who shall bring a charge against Gods elect? It is God who justifies" Rom 8:33

What "sin" can be charged against us? As it's not transgression of law what else can it be?
---Haz27 on 10/8/12


Haz, listen up. It's you who claim that I claim that the Christian is under the law. I showed you verses from Paul that by the law, sin is made known - which then makes everyone born into this world - under the law!

After one is converted by the Holy Spirit, does the law disappear? To your understanding, it does. For the Christian, the law has no more hold on him because of His faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - who came to fulfilled the sentence hanging on His people's head - "the wages of sin is death". But does the Christian continue to sin? Of course! To you, it's no. That's our debate here.

Do you know what's an antinomian? If you don't, just look at yourself in the mirror.
---christan on 10/8/12


Christan. Did you notice your mistake in wrongly alleging I quoted 1John 5:1 incorrectly?
You claim Christians are under the law but scripture contradicts you. Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, Rom 10:4, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25.

Warwick. Like I said, there are physical parallels, but the SPIRITUAL is the main message.
Yes, Jesus rose physically and God did create in 6 days. It's good you understand the SPIRITUAL is the MAIN message. Hence, "we also speak, not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" 1Cor 2:13

Scott: Your continual reluctance to answer my questions suggests your doctrine has no answer. Seems it's the modern translations that are distorted
---Haz27 on 10/8/12


"And how are we born of God? 1 John 5:1 "Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD" Haz

SO WRONG! Scripture does not say, "Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ will be born of God." See how you twist and turn the Word? And you don't even know it.

The answer to your question of "And how are we born of God?" is in John 1:12,13 -

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

You need to be born of the Spirit first, only then can you believe!
---christan on 10/8/12


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Haz27 on 10/8/12
No haz it is your understanding that is clouded
---francis on 10/8/12


Francis: The scriptures you quoted don't support your doctrine.
In fact 1John3:7 'doing righteousness' is explained in Rom 4:5 "to him who does NOT WORK (law) BUT BELIEVES ON HIM who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is ACCOUNTED for righteousness"
This is how we do righteousness. It's ACCOUNTED to us, through FAITH.

Note also 1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is BORN OF HIM."

And how are we born of God?
1John 5:1 "Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD"

So what does BELIEVING ON JESUS do? We're BORN OF GOD and this FAITH is ACCOUNTED for righteousness.




---Haz27 on 10/8/12


Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith,

Christ dwelling ion our hearts enable us to keep the law

2 Peter 1:4 that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

So we have IMPUTED righteous, whereby Christ gives us his righteous life for our sin life
and Imparted righteousness whereby christ imparts to us his divine nature that we may live righteously
---francis on 10/7/12


FofC: Yes, God is the law giver, but you seem to have missed my point.

God, the law giver, said in Rom 10:4: "Christ is the END of the law, for righteousness to everyone that believeth"

Hence my question to you still remains to be answered.
How do YOU determine righteousness?
Is it by works of the law of righteousness?
Or is it righteousness by faith?
---Haz27 on 10/7/12


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Is it by works of the law of righteousness?
Or is it righteousness by faith?


your answer is in James 4:12.

If God, creator of all things is not a law giver to you, then who is your god? the divine God of holy scripture inspired James to write he is a law giver, do you believe holy scripture or do you have another god???
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/7/12


FofC. You quote James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"

Interesting that you quote this verse. So, how do you judge righteousness?

Is it by works of the law of righteousness?
Or is it righteousness by faith?

If by works of the law then being under the law you make yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18, and you'll be guilty of all the law, James 2:10 and condemned to death. Have you kept the law PERFECTLY?

---Haz27 on 10/7/12


James 4:2 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

If there is no law from the lawgiver God, then there is no sin. The sinner and those calling on the Lord are one and the same because now both believe they have no laws to follow. No law, no transgression, no penalty, no punishment is required. Let's recap for the really slow ones who practice and teach laciviousness (aka lawlessness) , no law being broken, no breach of the law, then no penalty, without a penalty there is no Savior, and no salvation is required.

If there are no laws to follow there is no law giver, hence there is no God for the self-professed sinless in the flesh.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/6/12


FofC: I don't think you understand what being under the law means.

The law is holy, just, good, Rom 7:12. But the "carnal mind" is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be", Rom 8:7. Thus mankind was condemned to death.

BUT, now righteous by FAITH, instead, is offered through Christ. Hence Christ is the END of the law, for righteousness, Rom 10:4.

Any who are still under the law are CURSED, Gal 3:10.
If your under the law for righteousness, then you make yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18. Your guilty of ALL of it, James 2:10. To be under the law (works) is to be refusing to submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3. This is the sin of unbelief.
---Haz27 on 10/6/12


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He therefore concludes that since you do sin, you really are not born of God. It is as simple as that.

interesting, I've reread my posts and never made that statement. Your carnal mind is against God and you are against the Lord Jesus but I understand why you are because you are against God you are not subject to his laws!!

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And because you are against God and his 10 holy laws you teach others to be against him too.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven,
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/6/12


---Phil on 10/6/12
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
---francis on 10/6/12


---francis on 10/5/12 "
Once I confess that particular sin, It is not longer held against me, it no longer exist and I am sin free until and unless I sin again"

This is a good gesture in reverence to a Holy God. You without doubt believe this is what pleases Him and is needed to keep yourself in good standing with Him.

However, what you are describing is works of the flesh. It an effort on your part to ensure your salvation.

It does not work.

Where sin abounded, grace did superabound. It is not about sin. It is about God's favor, His grace.

One is either in grace or out of it. It is the channel of all blessing and connection to God. It is not earned, nor is it taken away if fault is found.
---Phil on 10/6/12


Hi elee. You suggest numerous Bible versions should be discarded as they contradict your doctrine. BUT here's some verses from a modern translation (NIV) that also contradict you.

Rom 6:7 "Those who have died have been SET FREE from sin"

1Pet 4:1 "are FINISHED with sin"

Rom 6:2 "As far as sin is concerned, we are dead. So HOW can we keep on sinning?"

1Pet 4:18 "it is hard for godly people to be saved.
Then what will happen to ungodly people and sinners?"
2 very different groups described here.
Group 1 Godly, saved
Group 2 ungodly, sinner, unsaved.

We abide in Christ. IN HIM IS NO SIN, 1John 3:5. HOW can we then be righteous in Christ and sin in him also?
---Haz27 on 10/6/12


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Follower_of_Christ. "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.... For these are the two covenants" Gal 4:21-24

You seem to be under law. If so you make yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18, and guilty of all the law, James 2:10. This a being a servant of sin (John 8:34). Its unbelief.

But Christians are not under the law, (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9,) and where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSIN (SIN), Rom 4:15.

"Who shall bring a charge against Gods elect? It is God who justifies." Rom 8:33

What "sin" can be charged against we who are justified by faith?
---Haz27 on 10/5/12


FofC - Haz has a rather distinctive view of sin. He claims since we are not under the law, we cannot sin.

And he uses the olde King James translation to support his viewpoint.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

He therefore concludes that since you do sin, you really are not born of God. It is as simple as that.

However, if you use a modern English version of the Bible, you have a different understanding.
---elee7537 on 10/5/12


francis, you have a "particular sin"? Serious? God declares we are ALL sinners with multitudes of sin and you have a "particular sin"? Astounding.

Is it really as simple as that by just the sinner confessing? Well, even the RCs, Jews and Muslim will tell you they repent of their sins - btw they will never tell you they have a "particular sin" but sins.

What's important to believing in Christ, the Holy Spirit tells us that it happens only by "the power of God" through His "gift of faith". Outside of this, all repentance are worthless to God.

So, you really think it's that simple by "just believing"? Don't make light of the work of God!
---christan on 10/5/12


Sorry but James in NOT talking about all 600 laws in the bible

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Only words HE said to Israel were the ten commandments not all 600 laws
---francis on 10/5/12


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Let me see if this makes sense to you?

I go to God, and confess my sins. So now Im forgiven, Right!
So now I can go to God and say I have no sin?
And this makes sense to you?

Or do you confess your sins to God, and now go to your brothers and say I have no sin.
Tell me exactly when should a man say I have no sin?

A man can never say I have no sin!
Or better said, to whom shall a man say I have no sin?

So what shall a man say?
Clearly in no way, can a man say I have no sin!

You can either believe your sins are forgiven or not.
Till then Peace!
---TheSeg on 10/5/12


Christians dont have sin, we are set free from sin. We already have imputed righteousness. Sin is not imputed.


wrong again your words have no truth because you write "Christians don't have sin" this directly contradicts holy scripture: 1 John 1:8 states when you say you have no sin you have deceived yourself and the truth is not in you.

heed Gods warning Psalms Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

at baptism when a Believer repents they are forgiven for all past sins, not future sins, our Lord Jesus is our high priest and mediator for the remaining of our life as we learn to overcome sin he is just to forgive 1 John 1:9
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/5/12


This is is my belief:
Once I confess that particular sin, It is not longer held against me, it no longer exist and I am sin free until and unless I sin again

Romans 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
---francis on 10/5/12


There are OVER 600 LAWS found in the Old Testament.

And James tells us that if we break any of them we are held accountable for all of it.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

However, somme laws have found their fulfillment in the ministry of Jesus (Matthew 5:17) and are not applicable to the Christian. Such laws as circumcision, the Sabbath, the dietary law do not pertain to the Christian and thus cannot be viewed as sin if they are violated.
---elee7537 on 10/5/12


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...does he stil retain that same sin of theft, or is he now sin free?
---francis on 10/4/12

Psalm 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us"

We still have the ability to sin while we are in the flesh. Romans 7 says that the flesh is where the sinful intentions dwell in us. Until we can live 100% without the flesh, we are apt to sin and cannot be considered "sinless". However, we can "sin less" each and every day. We have been delivered from the slavery of habitual sin by faith in Jesus, as Romans 6 tells us, and that allows us to choose righteous actions instead of sinful ones.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/5/12


Ro 7:23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity into the law of sin which is in my members.

There is no escaping sin. Known or unkown, it indwells all flesh.

Until all flesh is tranformed into the new creation to come, it will be at enmity with God.

He has condemned it as unfit. We will always be sinners due to corruption and death from Adam. When we have been made alive in Christ, and our bodies vivified by Him, then we shall be free from sin. It is then that death and sin will have no sway over our lives.

Sin is a fact of mortality. None who are mortal are without sin. Only resurrected and vivified ones are sinless.
---Phil on 10/5/12


Christians dont have sin, we are set free from sin. We already have imputed righteousness. Sin is not imputed.
---duane on 10/4/12

AMEN !

As a believe who has confessed his/her sin the following is applicable from that day forward. "You were washed, you were sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God. [The body of Christ has been] sanctified and cleansed with the washing of water, by the word. Though the washing of regeneration and [the] renewing of the Holy Spirit, Jesus has purged our sin, and we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once, for all [time]...."
---Josef on 10/4/12

AMEN!
---Haz27 on 10/5/12


francis, pointless to explain if you don't believe in the tripartite man and which of the three parts that doesn't sin and the one that sins. To you, the "sinless" man is the whole of the tripartite which is in error.

If you have become sinless, why then does God need to sanctify you as a Christian? BTW, sanctification starts after you become a Christian and not before. Or why would Christ command,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16:24

Ask yourself, when did Christ stopped carrying His cross? So when do you think as a follower of Christ will you then stop carrying your cross as a Christian?
---christan on 10/5/12


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Francis As a believe who has confessed his/her sin the following is applicable from that day forward. "You were washed, you were sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God. [The body of Christ has been] sanctified and cleansed with the washing of water, by the word. Though the washing of regeneration and [the] renewing of the Holy Spirit, Jesus has purged our sin, and we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once, for all [time]. [And] He has obtained eternal redemption [for us], having washed us from our sins in His own blood. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new".
---Josef on 10/4/12


// After we confess our sins, and are cleansed, do we still have those same sins?

Sins forgiven are sins that no longer exist. While sin does not disinherit us, what is effectively does is spoil our fellowship with the Lord but sin forgiven restores that fellowship,


It is much like your earthly father forgiving you your tresspasses against him but when he forgives you, your relationship is restored.
---elee7537 on 10/4/12


--christan on 10/4/12
Can you directly answer any of the question I posed?

1: After we confess our sins, and are cleansed, do we still have those same sins?

2: If a christian stole something, then repented and confessed his sin, returned that item, after God has cleaned him from his sin, does he still retain that same sin of theft, or is he now sin free?

Can you give a yes or a no, and then give your explaination?
---francis on 10/4/12


Again francis, the understanding of the tripartite man is crucial to you using the verses in this blog. The man is made up of the body (flesh), soul and spirit. The CLEANSING spoken of by John and other verses pertains to the soul only. The flesh is already condemned and God's not interested in it.

The spirit of the man is what God makes alive first, since it's "dead in sins and trespasses", hence the new creation. Only then does the man realise the gravity of his situation with God. Afterwhich, the sanctification of his soul begins and this is also in tandem with the flesh. The struggle with the spirit and soul begins as written in Romans 7, until he returns to dust and is united with Christ in Paradise.
---christan on 10/4/12


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We are well beyond confession and forgiveness.

if that statement is true then you would have no savior and the Lord Jesus will tell you in that day that you are none of his. for the Lord is the high priest and mediator for Believers who go to the Lord and ask for forgiveness and mercy when our carnal mind wars with our spiritual mind and we slip and fall and sin, and repent for our sin learning to overcome. Satan deceives so many into believing they are sinless somehow cannot see Apostle Paul wrote of his war on sin.

believe you have no sin then you have no high priest and savior. If you believe you have no sin then you have nothing to overcome and it is only those who overcome that will be with the Lord forever.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/4/12


"Christians dont have sin, we are set free from sin." duane

Wrong! Sin is an act of disobedience toward God. And Paul declares, "For the wages of sin is death..." And remember, we are all born sinners. Meaning, the sentence of DEATH is before us the day we were born because the law of God says so.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" Galatians 3:13. And what's that curse? DEATH! That is to say, Christ died on behalf of His people that they may receive eternal life. It was the sins of His people that He took upon Himself and gave up His Life that they may life.

So long as you are still alive in the flesh, there will be sin.
---christan on 10/4/12


But as we grow in Jesus, we grow in how He loves and does not sin.
---willie_c: on 10/4/12
expound please if posible
---francis on 10/4/12


Christians dont have sin, we are set free from sin. We already have imputed righteousness. Sin is not imputed.
---duane on 10/4/12


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If a christian stole something, then repented and confessed his sin, returned that item, after God has cleaned him from his sin, does he stil retain that same sin of theft, or is he now sin free?
---francis on 10/4/12


All believers know they are saved by grace through faith, not of works of the flesh.

Confession and repentance are acts of the flesh, required from a heart that is not circumcised, as was all Israel's. Neither confession nor repentance led to the salvation of Israel.

Its usefulness is confined to the flesh. For those under the Law, it is required.

Those who are called and chosen are justified by God through the Christ's faith, and no longer need this portion of God's grace.

We are not merely recipients of forgiveness. We are justified in His sight, declared not guilty, and new creations in His Beloved.

We are well beyond confession and forgiveness.
---Phil on 10/4/12


If we are not perfectly like Jesus, we still have the nature which makes us able to sin. But as we grow in Jesus, we grow in how He loves and does not sin.
---willie_c: on 10/4/12


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