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Salvations By Faith Or What

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?

This was the basic issue in the Reformation with the Roman Church. There are Christian cults today that hold the view that works are necessary for salvation. What say you?

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 ---elee7537 on 10/5/12
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Phil,
Paul taught the same thing as Peter

Rom 8:16-18,29
The Spirit Himself testifies...that we are children of God...heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed in us...For those He foreknew, He also predestined to become comformed the the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

Matt 5:44-45
pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your father in Heaven...

There is no more Jew and Greek.
---James_L on 10/14/12


---kathr4453 on 10/13/12 "Jesus didn't die for us because of our worth, but because of our great sin!"

Spoken like a true law-keeper, who knows neither the grace nor truth of God.

Grace is beyond the reach of those who seek merit in themselves. Disapproving, veiled eyes, hardened hearts. Much misery accompanies those who are out of grace and in flesh.

Contention, strife, slander, self-condemned, all that eminates from the abyss can find its voice in those who have a form of godliness, but are whited sepulchres.

You shall know them by their fruits.
---Phil on 10/13/12


"what I do have a problem with is narrowing the definition of salvation to a conversion experience." JamesL

It's written in Ephesians 1:5, that He has "...predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will", ie there's no way for anyone to be a "child of God" unless God has chosen them before He created the world to be in His Son.

Isn't this flat out that God has declared to us that He has chosen unconditionally? And this is "narrowing the definition of salvation"? How? What God doesn't tell us specifically who He has chosen BUT Christ did say, "you will know them by their fruits".
---christan on 10/13/12


---James_L on 10/13/12 'it says he saved us "AND" called us to a holy calling. The holy calling is suffering (1Peter 2:21). Look it up, man.'

Peter will not be with us, the body of Christ, in heaven. We will be changed into His likeness at His coming in clouds for us. 1Th 4:16-17

Peter, as a disciple and apostle of the Lord, is to rule in Jerusalem over the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration.

He will be a spirit-filled man of flesh and blood, resurrected to life for the thousand year reign age. Mt 19:28 Lk 22:30 Re 21:14

We will not be given soilish bodies, they would quickly perish where we will be. Our bodies will be glorified, not merely resurrected to life.
---Phil on 10/13/12


Christan, I don't have a problem with some being predestined for "salvation"

what I do have a problem with is narrowing the definition of salvation to a conversion experience.


\\"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE....
2 Timothy 1:9\\
---christan on 10/13/12


it says he saved us "AND" called us to a holy calling. The holy calling is suffering (1Peter 2:21). Look it up, man.

This suffering brings "salvation" in another sense, which is the salvation we some were predestined for. Our hope of Glory (Matt 10:22, Heb 2:9-10 et al)
---James_L on 10/13/12




Galatians 4: 10_11 "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

Labour, labor, work...

All whom is able must work. The thief on the cross did work. What is God's basic requirement?
Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
It is not just faith, else:

Peter would not have said: "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge,..."
And Paul: "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three, but the greatest of these is charity."
---Nana on 10/13/12


The HORRIBLE mentality of Calvinists:
QUOTE"
We've been chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Knowing this gives us a sense of our significance and value to God. We were so important to God that He gave up His Son to die on our behalf

They say:"You want to know how valuable I am? You want to know how much worth I have? God thought I was valuable enough to die for." That's blasphemy. Jesus didn't die for us because of our worth, but because of our great sin! He died because of who He is, and in spite of what we are * Rom. 5:8. He died to demonstrate His righteousness and divine justice Rom. 3:23-26. There's no mercy if it had to do with my worth AND NO grace if it had to do with my value.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/12


//The Sermon on the Mount was not given to us to follow. It is for the Kingdom on earth.
Amen well spoken
---michael_e on 10/13/12


"...if you mean predestined to believe the gospel, you won't find that anywhere in scripture." JamesL

You sure hate the idea God has predestined salvation and damnation, right? Here:

PREDESTINED TO SALVATION: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN" 2 Timothy 1:9

PREDESTINED TO DAMNATION: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, BEING DISOBEDIENT: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED." 1 Peter 2:8

Mind you, there're more in the Bible. But these should suffice.
---christan on 10/13/12


\\WRONG! "accept Christ"? Where does it say anywhere in Scriptures "accept Christ"...\\
---christan

Very good point. Scripture says we recieve Christ, and uses the analogy of the ground receiving a seed, or rain. When does the ground ever reach up and grab a seed, When does the ground grab the rain? Never.


\\Salvation is predestined! Or how else would Paul wrote what he believe in Romans 8:28-30?\\
---christan

That depends on what you mean by "salvation"

if you mean predestined for glory, by being conformed to the image of Christ, then you are correct. But if you mean predestined to believe the gospel, you won't find that anywhere in scripture
---James_L on 10/13/12




The Hebrew writers all believed in faith plus works. They also knew the power to perform it had to come from God.

In Matthew 5-7, the Lord one-upped Moses in every case. He raised the bar so high, they asked, "Who then can be saved?"

When He returns to Olivet and the Twelve rule in Jerusalem, these commandments will be in full force. Works meet for repentance must be shown in order to enter the Kindgom on earth then.

At that time there will be no violent ones taking the Kingdom by force.

The Sermon on the Mount was not given to us to follow. It is for the Kingdom on earth.
---Phil on 10/13/12


"test the spirit".
---christan on 10/8/12

John in his writings includes TWO tests:
FIRST:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not transgression of the law, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot transgression of the law, because he is born of God.

Which means that he keeps the law of God: 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law

SECOND:
1 John 4:2 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
---francis on 10/13/12


"That's how Paul explained what's the meaning of grace unmerited as opposed to your understanding of works in John 14:21?"
---christan on 10/12/12

Your interpretation of (Romans 11:6) is a misinterpretation Christan. And I have Jesus Christ as a witness to what I say.
Besides if what you say is what Paul meant in (Romans 11:6) why did he say this in (Romans 2:6-7)?
6 God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Christan, Show me where Jesus taught unmerited favor.
Two makes a witness, and you only have your misinterpretation of Paul. Haven't you ever wondered why?
---David on 10/13/12


David, (John 14:21) does not contradict what Paul taught concerning grace. Jesus said:
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me" All those who have His commandments already in their heart, have been saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ works already, they do keep them because Christ lives in them, and He gets the glory for the works we do. Since without Christ we can do nothing. The commandments Jesus gave, were two. And if the Spirit of Christ lives in you, you will show that love for God and man. If you don't have Christ in your heart, you will not show love for God, because you won't believe in Him.
---Mark_V. on 10/13/12


that is why I like mitt romney because he is a mormon and mormans believe you have to be good to earn status equal to God. ---shira4368 on 10/12/12


Unbelievable! Satan thought the same thing...look what God thought of that!

The total ignorance of those who call themselves Christians.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/12


Wow, this should be good. Shira is blowing sunshine all over a Calvinist, ( MarkV the heretic)and MarkV the heretic, because he loves being praised by anyone who will praise him, is now rebuked by Christan the Calvinist who is not afraid to rebuke Shira.

I wonder if MarkV will also rebuke Shira?

Or will Shira rebuke Christan with the scriptures, "as many as receive Him?" John 1.

Oh what a pickle this one is.

Or will MarkV rebuke Christan for rebuking Shira?

Oh, I can't wait....

No, the whole thing will be dropped completely and they ALL will be cussing me for seeing the humor in it all...just wait.
---kathr4453 on 10/13/12


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" We are saved thru faith and we don't have to do anything but accept Christ..." shira

WRONG! "accept Christ"? Where does it say anywhere in Scriptures "accept Christ", especially in Ephesians 2:8,9? Such theology makes man more powerful than God.

According to Ephesians 2:8,9 - the sinner WILL believe in Christ because of faith. In 2 Timothy 1:9, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

Salvation is predestined! Or how else would Paul wrote what he believe in Romans 8:28-30?
---christan on 10/12/12


However, your lack of including Jesus in any of your posts is shocking to me. How can you be a Christian without Christ?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/12

This is the standard that I use to test the spirits:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Revelation 12:17 the remnant ... which keep the commandments of God, and have THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: here they that keep the commandments of God, and the FAITH OF JESUS
---francis on 10/9/12
where is Jesus left out?
---francis on 10/12/12


"Grace unmerited?" David

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

That's how Paul explained what's the meaning of grace unmerited as opposed to your understanding of works in John 14:21?

In other words, whosoever believeth in Christ is because he's been saved by "the power of God. Whereas you and the multitudes have to believeth to be saved. That's the great difference. That's because Scripture says,

"for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" Romans 1:16
---christan on 10/12/12


Do not for once believe everyone who claim they are a Christian to be believers, John admonished, "test the spirit".
---christan on 10/8/12

The standard for testing the spirits is not mercy, justice and love. Unbeievers also do the same thing. I just posted the eightfold path to enlightenment which has more than justice, love, and mercy. So if Justice love and mercy is your standard to test the spirts then you can be a buddist. Buddist meet and exceed that test.

God's standard is: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You will not find this amoung unbelievers, but you will find justice, love and mercy anoung buddists
---francis on 10/12/12


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markv, you quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. many things are taken out of context. markv, you are absolutely correct. We are saved thru faith and we don't have to do anything but accept Christ...then we do good works as a testimony. that is why I like mitt romney because he is a mormon and mormans believe you have to be good to earn status equal to God. that being said, I do believe he is a good person and honest person. any news network can twist things all they want. he is a good morman. I didn't say he is saved because we know christians are born again believers. markv, keep up the good "works"...just kidding
---shira4368 on 10/12/12


why are we looking for different standard that excluse these?
---francis on 10/12/12

I am not.

However, your lack of including Jesus in any of your posts is shocking to me. How can you be a Christian without Christ?

I gave to you the words of the only one who can gain you access to God, and you disregarded them. Your reply to me was only about the Law.

I follow Jesus.

I do not follow Isaiah, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor anyone who is not following Jesus.

Jesus is my Peace, my Redeemer, my Salvation, my Life, and my Hope. Without Him, I have no hope of ever getting to God, of ever being accepted by God, or of ever satisying God.

He is the ONLY way.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/12


David, your understanding of John 14:21 is erroneous to say the least. Here's why, Christ said, "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me." Don't stop at there, because that's what you did. Why?

Because "the one who loves Christ" is simply because "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us" 1 John 4:10. That's to say, those who love Christ is because the Father first loved them, not the other way round as you think.

Paul taught that salvation is by unconditional election (Romans 9:11), rightly confirmed by MarkV as unmerited. Thinking otherwise like you, is to say salvation is by works - which is not how God saves, according to Scripture.
---christan on 10/12/12


David,

Trying to work out a pass mark in God's exam for righteousness must be very exciting. Can you tell me how you established just how many righteous acts you must do in this life to receive eternal life? What happens if you get one less than the pass mark? Maybe next time you decide to not bite your tongue, you should, just in case that's the one act that cuts you off. I mean, you'll never know, will ya?

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)
---Marc on 10/12/12


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Mark V
The problem with what you say is it is only supported by Paul's letters, where as ours is supported by all the New Testament teachers, including Paul and the only one who really counts, that being Jesus Christ the Son of God.
Can you show us where Jesus taught what you teach?

Grace unmerited? Better read what the Son of God had to say about that in (John 14:21) again.
---David on 10/12/12


I prefer these verses, which describe what we should be about, how we walk without stumbling, and how we keep from being deceived.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/12

This is how we keep from being deceived:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Even on this very site (CN) you can tell who speaks of the law and testimony and who does not.

God himself say "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." why are we looking for different standard that excluse these?
---francis on 10/12/12


"I will reserve that answer for the people who were involved in the crusades..." francis

So you are saying that outside of faith in Jesus Christ, unbelievers are saved so long as the practice being "just, merciful and loving"? And don't sit on the fence with your answers.

Because if that's what you believe, you've just called Jesus Christ a liar for declaring, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME." John 14:6

Btw, the "crusaders" are not disciples of Christ but of the devil. They were just using the name of the Lord in vain to plunder and kill.
---christan on 10/12/12


2 Peter 1:5-8 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/12
Not unique to christianity,
1. Right View Wisdom
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort Mental Development
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering,
---francis on 10/12/12


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this however is unique:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---francis on 10/11/12

I prefer these verses, which describe what we should be about, how we walk without stumbling, and how we keep from being deceived.

2 Peter 1:5-8 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/12/12


elee, our salvation is by Grace through faith not of grace through works,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, "not of works" lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).

francis likes to boast concerning his works. The very reason God said, "not of works" because if it is of works then man like francis will always boast of his great works. And really the works he really cares about is worshipping on Saturday Sabbath as all SDA's. The rest is only a smoke screen about the law. The law given to Israel is his support, the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/12


"There are Christian cults today that hold the view that works are necessary for salvation"

Did you know Paul taught works are necessary for salvation?
(Romans 2:6-7)
God, who will render to each one according to his deeds. Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality,
---David on 10/12/12


Are you saying their "justice, mercy and love" they practice is similar to those of the Christians?
---christan on 10/11/12

I will reserve that answer for the people who were involved in the crusades, the encouters of the native americans with the christian pilgrims, and the relationship between the west africans and the american colonialists


Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
---francis on 10/12/12


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"While there is nothing wrong with this verse, and nothing wrong with all the others which you posted. people who are none christiansalso practice these things. Justice,mercy, and love and not exclusive to christians." francis

And you believe these unbelievers stand righteous before God Almighty even though they do not believe in Jesus Christ? Are you saying their "justice, mercy and love" they practice is similar to those of the Christians?

Please think before you answer.
---christan on 10/11/12


Here is another one, right from the OT which you so dearly revere:

Micah 6:8 "...And what does the Lord require of you, But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/11/12

While there is nothing wrong with this verse, and nothing wrong with all the others which you posted. people who are none christiansalso practice these things.

Justice,mercy, and love and not exclusive to christians.

this however is unique:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---francis on 10/11/12


Hebrews 10 which states this: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
---Gina_Gi on 10/11/12


Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
---francis on 10/10/12

Here is another one, right from the OT which you so dearly revere:

Micah 6:8 "...And what does the Lord require of you, But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"

This verse has been considered by many to be a summary by God of all the OT commandments and statutes, up to that point.

BTW, these commandments and statutes which the people of Israel did not do, are being judged by God in Micah.

If Israel could not do them, how can we expect to do them without the power of the Holy Spirit?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/11/12


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Do not for once believe everyone who claim they are a Christian "test the spirit".
---christan on 10/8/12
This is the standard that I use to test the spirits:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---francis on 10/9/12

Mine is this,
John 14:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/10/12

My answer to you: "by the law of faith" Romans 3:27
---christan on 10/11/12
---francis on 10/11/12


francis, you quote Matthew 5:44-47. Let me ask you then - do you have to do all those that Christ commanded in order to be saved? Or you do them because you are already saved? So, which is which for you?

And, you ask: "what is yours?

My answer to you: "by the law of faith" Romans 3:27

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace." Romans 4:14-16

Are you saved by works or by grace?
---christan on 10/11/12


Yes, there are cults today professing themselves to be christians who have no works. There is one that say, if you believe Jesus died and rose again, then you are part of an elete group of the elect.

However what they miss is that we who have put our faith IN CHRIST also died and were raised up with Him, showing the evidence of Romans 6-8 as the very WORKS of Christ in us. And that this New Creature is created unto Good works that God has before ordained we should walk in and show forth.

That cannot be done if you are not Born Again, that is Born of the Spirit of the Life of Christ in you.

This CULT claims they can do all this without being Born Again....which is again works of the flesh.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/12


By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/10/12
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies,

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
---francis on 10/10/12


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what is yours?
---francis on 10/9/12

Mine is this, right from the mouth of Jesus:

John 14:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/10/12


"Even all the gentiles that are called by My name"

The only thing he forgot to put down was, who were those Gentiles he was speaking of, and (v. 15:14) tells us who they were:

"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name" God drew those Gentiles to Himself and those are the Gentiles who called on His name. God says,
"Says the Lord who does all these things" (v.17). For
"Known to God from eternity are all His works" (v. 18).
---Mark_V. on 10/10/12

Mark,

It was those 'Gentiles' that call on his name.. Those who did not call his name were not call by God!
---Ruben on 10/10/12


Isaiah 45:22 "Look to me, and be you saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

The call went to ALL.

1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (commandment, not anything irresistible)

God drew but did never drag nor bind or tie down anyone to believe. On the contrary,as Jesus said it is passed on, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." You Mark5, you read too many empty commentaries.
---Nana on 10/10/12


Nana gave a good passage when he put down in (Acts 15:15-17),

"Even all the gentiles that are called by My name"

The only thing he forgot to put down was, who were those Gentiles he was speaking of, and (v. 15:14) tells us who they were:

"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name" God drew those Gentiles to Himself and those are the Gentiles who called on His name. God says,
"Says the Lord who does all these things" (v.17). For
"Known to God from eternity are all His works" (v. 18).
---Mark_V. on 10/10/12


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Israel was taught to seek him:
Deuteronomy 4:29 "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

The rest:
Acts 15:15_17 " And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down, and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:"
v.19
---Nana on 10/9/12


James L, I answered the very passage you gave. The passage speaks of,
"I was found by those who did not seek Me" If they did not seek Him, how was He found?
"I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me" Christ was made manifest to those who did not ask for Him. God did all this, because as Scripture says,
"There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands, "there is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:10,11). Without the power of the Holy Spirit the lost will never seek after God.
Now I give you the message of the Cross, but to you it is foolishness, corrupt, and wrong, but to those been saved, it is the power of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/9/12


Do not for once believe everyone who claim they are a Christian (like you) to be believers, John admonished, "test the spirit".
---christan on 10/8/12
This is the standard that I use to test the spirits:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Revelation 12:17 the remnant ... which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: here they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

what is yours?
---francis on 10/9/12


\\James L, as I mentioned before...\\
---Mark_V. on 10/8/12


Oh, I know. You mention your views all the time. The only problem is that scripture never mentions your views.

Taking a scripture out of its context and twisting it doesn't count.
---James_L on 10/8/12


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Mark V, you are exactly correct! My Grandpa used to say that most of the Christian world puts the cart before the horse.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It does not say, "whosoever will believe". It says, "whosoever believeth". Our belief in Christ is an evidence of our everlasting life, not a condition in order to gain everlasting life.
---trey on 10/8/12


francis, quoting Amos 3:3 without v2, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." makes no sense.

The relationship here is between God and His people. Remember this? "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a JEALOUS God" Exodus 20:5

Answer to your question: "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Do not for once believe everyone who claim they are a Christian (like you) to be believers, John admonished, "test the spirit".
---christan on 10/8/12


James L, as I mentioned before, those who confess with their mouths and believe with their hearts, are those who are been saved. They were quickened by the Spirit to spiritual life already and your passage explains that very well. Those people were not seeking God as but God made them alive to Christ,
"But Isaiah is very bold and says' " I was found by those who did not seek Me, I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me" (Rom. 10:20) God, by no one's permission, quickened the heart and that one person confessed with his mouth and believe in his heart, those are the one's who are being saved. To the one's who are perishing the message of the Cross to them is foolishness.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/12


these are nothing more than denominations that completely unscriptural!
---christan on 10/8/12
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?


What is your solution?
---francis on 10/8/12


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Northern Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Unorthodox, Protestant, Prybesterian, etc, etc. - these are nothing more than denominations that completely unscriptural!

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26
"Is Christ divided?" 1 Corinthians 1:13
It's either you're called a Christian or not, period.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his." 2 Timothy 2:19

One can fool the man but never God!
---christan on 10/8/12


Let's ask -What if I have faith, yet have no works, will I go to heaven?

Catholic answer? NO
Arminian answer? NO
Calvinist answer? NO

There is no differene except that the Catholic load works in front of faith,-James

No, it both Faith and works not one then the other!


But all three say that works are absolutely necessary to enter heaven.


Who does the Bible agree with?

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life , and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment ." (Jhn 5:28-29)
---Ruben on 10/8/12


JackB and MarkV,

if you are suggesting, as most do, that Romans 10:9-10 & 13 support a "sinner's prayer" then you need to keep reading to verse 20 and tell me how that gels.

There is a context, and you are both taking the verses out of it.


Scott1,
I agree with you. I am (Southern) Baptist also. Unfortunately, most are not satisfied leaving the results to God. The "response" has completely supplanted the message in many cases.

Most spend about 30 seconds describing sin and the cross, then give 10 minutes to this warped "response" doctrine

We simply plant the seed and water it. God makes it grow
---James_L on 10/8/12


Every single sinner that's saved by the grace of God 100% will have works that's been prepared by God for them to do (Ephesians 2:10), unless you're like the thief on the cross next to Christ - which clearly confirms that salvation is by grace 100%.

False christians will tell you that one can lose their salvation if you do not obey God's law nor have good works to do even after declaring they are saved by grace. They become obsessed with works and depend on them to be saved and boast about them.

True Christian know that when he's saved, the good works that he does is merely his duty. Classic example, the good Samaritan in Luke 10:30-37.

The believer is saved to do good works while the unbeliever does good works to be saved.
---christan on 10/8/12


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James L, you said,
"It is a sick display to hear someone say we're not saved by works, then say "Now if you'll DO this"
The Word of God,
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to "those who are perishing," but to us, who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18). Only those who are being saved it is the power of God.
When someone truly commits his life to Christ as Jack B stated, to confess in (Rom. 10:8-10) the passage in (1 Cor. pertains to those who are being saved). Only those only, because to the rest, the message of the cross is foolishness. Once a person has been quickened by the Spirit he is going to confess with his mouth, for with the heart one believes.
---Mark_V. on 10/8/12


It is a sick display to hear someone say we're not saved by works, then say "Now if you'll DO this..."
---James_L on 10/6/12

A confessional statement of any sort no super words or exact format is neccesary. The purpose of a confessional is surrender not achievement. Works for salvation is an I earned this position. I totally agree that HS, God has to impart his truth onto you for salvation. The purpose of the confessional is your foundation and starting block to fight off attacks from the evil one and to focus your attention on God. I admit that some especially Baptist (I am one of them) have made the confessional the finish line not the starting line.
---Scott1 on 10/8/12


Paul said something on the order of 'If you do this, you don't attain to that...':
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

There are "works of the flesh" as there are 'works of the Spirit'. Pretend that all works are the same is not a good thing:
2 Corinthians 5:9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."
---Nana on 10/7/12


It is a sick display to hear someone say we're not saved by works, then say "Now if you'll DO this..."
---James_L on 10/6/12


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
---JackB on 10/7/12


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\\If you say a prayer for Jesus to save you - - saying a prayer can be a work.\\
---willie_c: on 10/6/12


If you say a prayer for Jesus to save you, you just might not be saved at all.

It is unbiblical through and through. No evidence that anyone in scripture preached for anyone to pray to be saved, to ask Jesus into their heart, or anything of the sort.

Oh, and by the way, you're right. It's a work.

It is a sick display to hear someone say we're not saved by works, then say "Now if you'll DO this..."
---James_L on 10/6/12


the problem with some "Christian" cults today is that they add works of righteousness as prerequisites to salvation and or walk much the same as in Roman Catholicism

"adding works of righteousness is cultish" interesting statement proving how the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God

James 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/6/12


\\However, do not Sunday Go-to-meeting folks "emphasize the necessity of" going to church on Sunday?\\
---Rod4Him on 10/6/12


God point, Rod4Him. And not only going to church, but also abstaining from working and other "worldly" activities on Sunday.

I attend a Southern Baptist Church, and we recently debated and voted on the Sunday "necessities" in deciding whether to adopt the most recent SBC "Faith and Message"

Needless to say, the Sunday Sabbatarians voted with an overwhelming majority, and the legalism continues for yet another year til we vote again
---James_L on 10/6/12


If you say a prayer for Jesus to save you - - saying a prayer can be a work.

James does say, "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (in James 2:24)

We need "faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6) John says, "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, our boldness for judgment comes with being made perfect in God's own love making us "as He is" "in this world". So, of course people will decoy our attention elsewhere, by arguing about faith and works . . . not dealing with how to become perfect in God's own love > "in this world".
---willie_c: on 10/6/12


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elee, You are correct! Eternal salvation is by and through faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of yourselves...
The grace and the faith do not come from us. Both grace and faith are gifts of God.

Now, our time salvation, which is different than our eternal salvation, comes through obedience to God.
An example of this is found in Exodus 14:30 Thus the Lord saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians. This was not an eternal saving, but a timely salvation.

Peter on the Day of Pentecost Acts 2:40 said "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." He was speaking of a timely salvation by our works, which we perform through faith.
---trey on 10/6/12


"By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:9
"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work." Rom 11:6
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Rom 3:27,28
The only work associated with salvation is "the work of faith." 1Th 1:3>2Th 1:11 and that is His work in you. Phl 2:13
---josef on 10/6/12


//And that is why I am not a Sabbaterians since most of them emphasize the necessity of observing the Old Testament Sabbath - something that is not in the New Covenant.//

However, do not Sunday Go-to-meeting folks "emphasize the necessity of" going to church on Sunday?
---Rod4Him on 10/6/12


\\the problem with some "Christian" cults today is that they add works of righteousness as prerequisites to salvation and or walk much the same as in Roman Catholicism.\\
---elee7537 on 10/5/12


Calvinism adds works as a Post-requisite to salvation, still making works a necessary aspect of entering heaven. So what's the difference? Not much.

Let's ask -What if I have faith, yet have no works, will I go to heaven?

Catholic answer? NO
Arminian answer? NO
Calvinist answer? NO

There is no differene except that the Catholic and Arminian load works in front of faith, while the Calvinist loads works behind faith.

But all three say that works are absolutely necessary to enter heaven.
---James_L on 10/5/12


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Gordon - agree with your comment, however, the problem with some "Christian" cults today is that they add works of righteousness as prerequisites to salvation and or walk much the same as in Roman Catholicism.

And that is why I am not a Sabbaterians since most of them emphasize the necessity of observing the Old Testament Sabbath - something that is not in the New Covenant.
---elee7537 on 10/5/12


The Holy Spirit of God simply declares:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)... For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:5,8,9

James merely confirms this in his teachings to the fools who claim they have faith and have no works - which contradicts Ephesians declaration.
---christan on 10/5/12


But there's more to faith than just thinking that you're saved.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/12

Tell us more
---francis on 10/5/12


elee7537, Good Works cannot bring Salvation, but, true Faith will always produce Good Works. If no Good Works are produced, one is cast into Hell at death. SEE the Holy Bible says in JAMES 2:17 and 18b "Even so, Faith, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.....and I will shew thee my Faith BY MY WORKS." Also, YAHUSHUA (JESUS) says, in JOHN 15:5-6, "I Am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same BRINGETH FORTH MUCH FRUIT (Good Works)...If a man abideth not in Me (does not continue in YAHUSHUA), he is cast forth as a branch...and men gather them , and cast them into the Fire (Hell), and they are burned."
---Gordon on 10/5/12


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faith without works is dead so says James 2:20

James 2:24,26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/5/12


Salvation is by the blood of Christ,through grace,He alone was the sacrifice for the remission of our sins. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Ephesians 2:8,4,10 For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith-and this is not from yourselves,it is the gift of God-not by works,so that no one can boast. Also verse 4--it is by grace you have been saved. 10 -created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do. It isn't the work we do thats important,it is the obedience to do all God gives us to do.
---Darlene_1 on 10/5/12


But there's more to faith than just thinking that you're saved.

Alas, in Luther's definition, justifying faith means the faith that believes itself justified.

This is NOT putting your faith in God, but in your own act of faith. Not the same thing at all.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/12


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