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Explain Least Of The Gifts

In many churches no-one speaks in tongues. Many of these are born again Christians. In other churches almost every member speaks in tongues and those who don't are disappointed that they don't. Why such a difference between people who attend different types of churches? Why is tongues desired so much?

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Mark V: Sent you a long message on the email thing as it would be too long to fit here.

Peter
---Peter on 4/17/13


Markv, when you were a pentecostal, ws that after you were RCC and before you became one of the elect? If you weren't one of the Elect then at that time, you were not at that time regenerated to see any truth, correct? So how could you have done a study on the Word of Faith Movement and had any spiritual discernment as to whether it was truth or not?

Just curious.
---kathr4453 on 4/17/13


Jan, sorry to disappoint you by not agreeing with your views. I was a pentacostal a long time ago. Experienced everything that you and other talked about, been to mega conventions, where people scream, jump up and down, dropped to the ground, got up yelling, then turn around and doing cirlces, the speaking in a tongue(gibberish) then everyone else joining in, it was a mad house, that was only the first hour, no preaching yet, and the preaching took the cake, it was worse then the screaming and yelling, and that is the reason I did a study on the Word of Faith Movement. Nothing you say suprises me. Sorry I do not agree.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/13


to Mark_V. on 4/16/13

You're starting to recycle what has already been covered.

Peace.
---jan4378 on 4/16/13


Jan, you answer with:
" He said also that love edifies and I thank God for it."

Yes thank God for edifying you with His love, but what you are doing is self-edification, as you said, charging yourself up. You must get uncharge during the week. All the genuine believers are charge up all the time by the Spirit who dwells in them. All the gibberish speaking only brings pride which leads to more pride. Would God give you a gift that would result in pride, I don't think so. The gift of tongues (other languages) was given to those in the Apostolic Church to introduce the gospel in other languages.
There is no known language of Gibberish.
---Mark_V. on 4/16/13




To Mark_V. on 4/15/13Jan, you made my point when you said,

"But I do get charged up by speaking in divinely given utterance that is addressed to God (1Cor.14:2)"
That is all you are doing, getting charged up.


That's right. Super-charged with the power of God. Stirring up the love of God that's been shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. Paul said a believer is edified, and I've experienced it. He said also that love edifies and I thank God for it.
---jan4378 on 4/15/13


Jan, you made my point when you said,

"But I do get charged up by speaking in divinely given utterance that is addressed to God (1Cor.14:2)"
That is all you are doing, getting charged up. Tryin to impress as the Corinthians were doing. It's for your own self-edification. It does not help God, or impress God that you are getting self-edification. Do you think God needs gibberish to know what is in your heart or mind? God already knows what is in your mind before you think it,
"For I know the things that come into your mind, everyone of them" (Ezek. 11:5)
Second, why do you need to get charged up? Do you lose the Spirit doing the week? you should be charged up all the time for Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


To Mark_V 4/11/13

Paul used the singular "tongue" when writing of human languages, so it is your interpretation that is at fault.

It's interesting that he'd say that it was speaking to God, which means that he is responsible for giving pagan counterfeit. Nice one Mark.

Implying with scripture refs that it's selfish edification is projecting your own sarcasm.

When ever God gave the gift of languages He also gave the gift of interpretation, so that the sign would also be edifying. Never was the gift used without such translation (.28).

As per the example you gave of your former Pentecostal pastor, he was being selfish in exercising vs.2?
---jan4378 on 4/15/13


To Mark_V 4/13/13

I don't get any charge out of saying gibberish like super calla fragelystic expee alla doshus. (That's from song in a Disney movie)
But I do get charged up by speaking in divinely given utterance that is addressed to God (1Cor.14:2)

About 25 years ago I belonged to a Pentecostal church, the pastor there spoke in tongues privately. He never allowed anyone to speak in tongues during services. If someone did, he would sent an elder to stop the person.

His perogative as pastor.

At least there was some control, that's important.

Man's means of control means not getting any of God's personal edification to the church through proper ministry channels. Too bad.
---jan4378 on 4/15/13


Jan, let me say something very important. To me it does not matter if someone is speaking in gibberish, if that makes them feel good about themselves. About 25 years ago I belonged to a Pentecostal church, the pastor there spoke in tongues privately. He never allowed anyone to speak in tongues during services. If someone did, he would sent an elder to stop the person. At least there was some control, that's important. Because like Scripture mentions, "Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your minds?" (1 Cor. 14:23).
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13




Jan, you said:
"1 Corinth. 14:9 uses the singular in reference to languages of men." You misinterpreted. "Tongue" in the singular is no language. Here again Paul as in (v.2) uses the singular to refer to the pagan counterfeit "gibberish" and sarcastically ( v. 16: 4:8-10 for other sarcasm remarks) marks its selfishness as some kind of self-edification. The illicit building up of self comes from pride-induced emotion which only produces more pride. The Corinthians misused the real gift, by using a counterfeit gibberish tongue. When ever God gave the gift of languages He also gave the gift of interpretation, so that the sign would also be edifying. Never was the gift used without such translation (.28).
---Mark_V. on 4/11/13


To Mark_V. on 3/26/13

Your using the singular or plural to say that it means different things has no basis in comparison to the scripture.
In every instance of use of tongues, whether of men or of divine utterance prompted and given of the Holy Spirit, it is always in the plural.

Always. Genesis through Revelation.
---jan4378 on 4/11/13


To Mark_V. on 3/26/13

My goof on the previous post.. I checked up on the use of plural of tongues. And didn't look up the use of the singular of tongue.
____


1 Corinth. 14:9 uses the singular in reference to languages of men.

Every other example of singular in the chapter is referring to divine utterance.
Paul uses the word "gibberish" as an unbeliever would speak of it, he himself calls it the "tongues of angels".
---jan4378 on 4/11/13


In many churches no-one speaks in tongues.
---Rita_H on 10/15/12
If everyone in the congregation speaks the same language, of what value is a foriegn language to those who do not understand it?

Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
---francis on 3/29/13


It comes down to doctrine. Doctrine welcomes it at some. Then there is ORDER. Attending Assembly of God from time to time, though pro-tongues in doctrine, most services at most Assembly churches that I've gone, I never hear a word of tongue. RARELY. May be because Paul teaches 1 Corinthians 14:19
in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. The appearance of tongues is easy. Anyone can pretend to be fluent. In high school, a number of students would pretend to carry on conversation in foreign languages. So anyone can. But is it genuine? And where is the interpreter? That is why tongue is not popular among more of the orthodox churches.
---born on 3/27/13


Jan, Paul was speaking of two different tongues. One Plural, which is "other languages" and "tongue" singular which means "gibberish" mentioned in (v. 14:19). In Cor. 14:13-25). Carefully read. "Therefore tongues are for a "sign" not to those who believe but to unbelievers," (v. 14:22). Here is why its wrong (v.14:23),
"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues "other languages" and there comes those who are uniformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
Remember (v. 14:22) says it is for unbelievers. And these same unbelievers who are uniformed will say you are out of your minds.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/13


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micha, Im sorry to tell you but I am washed in the blood of the Lamb and I have never had an inkling to speak a language I can't understand. you take a scripture out of context and build a whole denomination. many believe like you and its ok for you but it isn't ok with me for me to do it.
---shira4368 on 3/25/13


/Paul also wrote that by tongues the believer is edified or built up...So, the more they speak in tongues, the more they mature in love, the more they communicate and behave in a loving manner. Hence the Apostle Paul saying, "I would that all spake in tongues."/-jan4378 on 3/22/13
1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.
You seem to be twisting Pauls words.
---micha9344 on 3/25/13


jan, a foreign language is not a special language. you can believe it all you want. God bless you. its ok if you don't agree with me.
---shira4368 on 3/24/13


To shira4368 on 3/23/13

I agree that on the day of Pentecost they spoke in human languages they didn't know as a witness to the Jews who'd gathered to celebrate that Jewish Feast. But Peter spoke in his own learned language to explain the phenomena and witness of Jesus Christ.

In Paul's epistle the gifts of tongues refers to an unknown language being uttered, and that is why the gift of interpretation of the tongues is needed. They are not used to preach the gospel. As Paul wrote in 1Corinth.14:19.. One's learned language is used to instruct/teach.
Every charismatic minister that goes to foreign countries takes a bi-lingual person along to translate the message.
---jan4378 on 3/24/13


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jan, speaking in tongues is a foreign language. If everyone spake in a foreign language we could witness to everyone. I am close to my Savior and I have never learned a foreign language. some denominations base their whole beliefs on speaking in tongues. I have enough trouble speaking in english.
---shira4368 on 3/23/13


---J-marc on 12/13/12

A: Believers speak in tongues in order to operate in those gifts.

Everyone starts on an imperfect level. All Christians are learning throughout their lives.

The Apostle Paul compared the child to the adult. Putting away childish things such as speaking and behaving selfishly (being no gain in prophecy, etc) rather than lovingly (much gain).

Paul also wrote that by tongues the believer is edified or built up. And also wrote that love edifies.
So, the more they speak in tongues, the more they mature in love, the more they communicate and behave in a loving manner.

Hence the Apostle Paul saying, "I would that all spake in tongues."
---jan4378 on 3/22/13


J. Marc, you are absolutely correct. What good is tongues when Love is missing? No good at all. The reason Paul put the chapter of love in between 12 and 14 was because so many Corinthians were speaking gibberish to impress others the gift they said came from the Holy Spirit. But it was no language at all. Some will not get it, they are so rapped up with the tongues that now if someone does not have they feel like they were left out, and others feel all you have to do is ask and God suddenly gives it to them at their request. Nothing wrong if it was a known tongue, but unknown tongue is spoken in churches.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/12


What about LOVE!?

i don't see it much in "Christianet"!

1st Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not [love] charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity [love], I am nothing.
---J-marc on 12/13/12


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Rita_H - but tongues wasn't the ONLY gift given so why the emphasis on one whilst some of the others rarely get a mention?

The majority of the believers were speaking in tongues for personal edification. Paul taught how to use tongues to edify others.

Why don't people desire the gift of prophesy as much as they desire the gift of tongues?

Most believers that speak in tongues can request interpretation of their own tongues. That would equal personal prophecy. But it's still up to the Holy Spirit if they would be used to prophesy to the church.
---jan4378 on 12/13/12


Q:In many churches no-one speaks in tongues.
In other churches almost every member speaks in tongues and those who don't are disappointed that they don't.
A:Wherever the practice and teaching is, there will be more who will receive speaking in tongues.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Q:Why is tongues desired so much?
A:For edification of the church, and oneself.
---jan4378 on 12/9/12


1 Cor.14 says "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,unless someone interprets,so that the church may be edified."

This says that Paul 'would like' everyone to speak in tongues NOT that 'everyone will' speak in tongues or 'should' speak in tongues.

As he also says that he would 'much rather they prophesy' why does prophecy not get the same prominence in churches as tongues does?

Answer - fake tongues can never be proven fake but fake prophecy will be found out eventually so people dare not fake it.
---Rita_H on 12/7/12


Jan4378 - but tongues wasn't the ONLY gift given so why the emphasis on one whilst some of the others rarely get a mention?

Why don't people desire the gift of prophesy as much as they desire the gift of tongues?
---Rita_H on 12/6/12


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Rita_H: God gives His gifts to whom He chooses.

A: 1Cor12:11 states that God gives the ministry gifts to whom he chooses.
Mark 16:17, Acts 10:45, 1Cor14 states that speaking in tongues is for every believer.

Rita_H: I know of no verse which says that first He gives the gift of tongues and, after that, He gives other gifts.

A: how then could Paul write of the gifts of the spirit in 1Cor 12:10 about speaking in tongues and interpretation?
How could Paul write in 1Cor14:13 about speaking in tongues and interpretation?
---jan4378 on 12/6/12


Rita_H : Why such a difference between people who attend different types of churches? -on 10/15/12

The difference is what is taught. As the scripture said, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Rom.10:17.

Why is tongues desired so much? -on 10/15/12

To promote the growth of the body of Christ. 1Cor14
And most of all because Jesus and the Father gave it. Joel2:28-29, Acts1:4-5.
---jan4378 on 12/6/12


kathr, the problem with you is you use the OT without even referring to the NT which the apostles and Christ has expounded on the meaning of the concealment in the nation of Israel.

Posting Hosea without referencing with Paul in Romans, clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding and truth. Here, read "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

You think a born Jew is a child of God? Good for you.
---christan on 10/25/12


Kathr, though you do not understand Hosea 1:10) I will respond to your twisted answer and quote. (v.9)
"Then God said, 'Call his name Lo-Ammi" (which means "Not my People") For you are not My people, And I will not be your God" you forgot to mention that passage. (v.10) that refers to people who were not His people will be His sons at a later date in time. Not to be fulfilled in this generation but in the future (Gen 22:17) not My people is a quote in (Rom. 9:26). (v.29) tells us that only the remnant (mentioned in v.9:23,24) of Israel will survive God's wrath, solely because of His mercy. They will become sons of God just like the Gentiles.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/12


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Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered, and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Sorry Christan, but THIS VERSE has cornered YOU and proven YOU wrong!

But you would rather post frivelous posts and not address YOUR mistake you made!

We know how the smoke screen works!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/12


"why do you resort to cursing everyone who disagrees with you or maybe sees things you fail to see. Does it make you feel better?" kathr

Kindly pull a quote or two from my blogs where I have cursed you or anyone one else here. Please.

You and I by the grace of God through Christianet have been allowed to express our believe in Christ in the most civil (though not at times) way allowed without spilling blood. You say what you want to say and I say what I want. And in the process contradiction arises not because of anyone's superior words but the Word of God which stands in judgement to what we have said.

You have been cornered and proven wrong and you dare accuse me of "cursing" you and others?
---christan on 10/23/12


christan, why do you resort to cursing everyone who disagrees with you or maybe sees things you fail to see. Does it make you feel better?

The reason YOU cannot see the truth is because you have distorted the truth.

Do you understand this verse?
It was quote again by Paul in Romans 9-11.

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered, and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


Answer:

Exodus 9:1Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


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MarkV, you're right. They simply just talk and talk without facts, worse still, understanding of the Truth. Paul said, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."

And the Truth according to Paul is that "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel", which means that God was only going to save "spiritual Israel". John saw, "hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and that's the "spiritual Israel" that was clearly concealed in the physical Israel.
---christan on 10/23/12


Kathr, if you are so sure the people mentioned in (Matt. 1:21) and you are sure those were the Jews in the passages you gave, why didn't you answer my question?

"Why did Jesus come to late to save billions of those Jews who died in their sins before He came?"
and now that He has come
"why are so many Jews dying in their sin right now rejecting Christ?" If He came to save them, He must be doing a terrible job, this god of yours.
Why did He come to late since He is God? Your god cannot come on time. He must need a wakeup call. My God is in control of all things.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


Ler "MY PEOPLE" GO!!!

Who can guess where that was said and in reference to WHO?
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


What does the term "chosen people" MY PEOPLE mean?
Who was Deuteronomy 7:6 (speaking of 'chosen people') spoken to? Deuteronomy 6:3-4 reveals it was spoken to Israel. At that time, Israel consisted of all those that came out of Egypt with Moses (see Deuteronomy 7:8). A very similar verse is Deuteronomy 14:2. In 1 Chronicles 16:13, Israel is called "His chosen ones": David wrote Psalm 33:12, 105:6, 43. And Isaiah records these words from the Lord: Isaiah 41:8-9, 43:10,20, 44:1. In Isaiah 48:12, the Lord refers to them as "My called." And Daniel calls them "His chosen people" (Daniel 11:15).

From the above, it can be seen that the phrase, "chosen people" definitely applied to Israel.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


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Kathr, don't go away with more of your talk on someone else, why didn't you answer my question? If the Jews are His people that He came to save, why did He come to late? By the time He came billions had died in their sin. And we do know there is no second chances.
Before you go on and on talking, condemning calvinism, responders, and calling them names, at least answer the questions people ask you. You cannot, because it is all talk and no facts.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28 ---29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children---
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


"John 12:32 contains nothing on the matter of hell. Please read it closer." Phil

If you read the Bible closely, no one spoke about the doctrine of hell more than the Lord Jesus Christ. There goes another one of your erroneous understanding to deviate and deny the subject of hell.

Deny all you want, it's not going to change God's plan for the wicked on Judgement Day one iota. Like you care anyways.
---christan on 10/22/12


---christan on 10/21/12

Seek truth, above all else.

There is no salvation apart from the Jewish nation. Whether it be Christ, the Twelve, or our apostle Paul, all salvation has come out of the Jew.

The Lord said it, simple to understand, yet some would desire otherwise.

Christ's body is in the heavens. The bride of the Lambkin will be on earth.

The promise to Abraham, sands and stars, is found in these two separate and distinct elections.

Their destinations differ for now, but eventually God will become All in all.
---Phil on 10/22/12


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---christan on 10/21/12 " A simple YES or NO would do.

"And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

At death every body returns to the dust, the soul returns to sheol, and the spirit returns to God.

You want yes or no answers. Interesting.....Am I under your judicial eye? Seeking incriminating remarks?

Every soul that died failing to confess the faith of Christ is condemned. The second death-the lake of fire, is just that. It is death after being resurrected to judgment.

It is not a period of endless torment.

God's wrath and indignation preceed the second death.
---Phil on 10/22/12


Unless no one goes to hell then my understanding of is erroneous.
---christan on 10/21/12

John 12:32 contains nothing on the matter of hell. Please read it closer.

Jesus is talking of the glory He will have as Saviour and Reconciler of the entire universe after His death.

Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all in Him... whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.

Esssentially, yes, you are in error, by failing to discern the context.

It is better to believe God, and take Him at His word, than to trust in oneself or others for illumination.
---Phil on 10/22/12


Christan, the Elect in Matthew 24 is the 144,000 that Revelation is talking about, IF PERHAPS you were rightly dividing the word of truth correctly. Matthew 24 is the end times...

Now if YOU insist YOU are MY PEOPLE, then YOU need to turn from YOUR WICKED WAYS and America wil be healed.

Oh, but you say, I'm not wicked, I'm the Elect.

Isn't it funny how YOU like to pick and choose verses YOU LIKE, but when it's a "warning" or "a curse"..then, that versre does not apply?

We all laugh at how Calvinism plays this game.

So Matther 24-25...where are you planning to run and hide? And Christian, I hope your flight does not happen on the SABBATH. Oh my, what a disaster that will be for you!
---kathr4453 on 10/22/12


HIS PEOPLE mean all Jews. Gentiles were never called HIS PEOPLE. Kathr.

If He came to save the Jews because they are His people, "don't you realize He came too late for them?"
By the time Jesus arrived in Bethlehem, billions of Jews had died rejecting Christ, and are dying right now in unbelief. What kind of God cannot make it on time, or save His own people? That is not the God of Scripture.
He said,
"...I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd" (John 10:15,16).
His sheep are the elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world.
---Mark_V. on 10/22/12


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"HIS PEOPLE mean all Jews. Gentiles were never called HIS PEOPLE." kathr

No doubt that God's chosen people on earth were the Jews. Even Christ was a Jew, hence we are told "for salvation is of the Jews." But notice Christ didn't say, "salvation is for the Jews only" as you are suggesting.

Paul clarifies this in Romans 9, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.", which includes the Gentiles.

For if the Jews were all "HIS PEOPLE", none should be in hell. You really believe none will be in hell?
---christan on 10/21/12


"And nowhere do we find any verse saying Jesus only died for HIS ELECT." kathr

You hatred for what God has declared so explicitly in His Word is truly astounding. The OT concealed the NT. And when the Word became flesh, the Father so graciously expounded and taught us in His epistles the revelation of the OT concealments. Yet you deny them.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive THE VERY ELECT." Matthew 24:24

Christ declared it Himself that there are "the elect", a specific group of chosen people that can never be deceived. So, you calling Christ a liar?
---christan on 10/21/12


HIS PEOPLE mean all Jews. Gentiles were never called HIS PEOPLE.

It's amaging how some will totally distort scripture to promote their own religion.

And nowhere do we find any verse saying Jesus only died for HIS ELECT.

According the the prophets in the OT, no Covenant ever taught that only a select group of people were saved.

Even under the OT sacrifice, it was for the sin of ALL THE PEOPLE ISRAEL MINE ELECT. Does that mean that ALL the People in Israel were in fact saved? Forgiven? NO! Or if you say Yes, then none of them lost their salvation.

The Atonement also practiced during the time Jesus was on earth covered Judas and all Pharisees correct. SO, according to you ALL Jews were saved, forgiven.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/12


"It is not theology. It is the declaration of God. I WILL draw all men unto me." Phil

So kindly answer this simple question: are there souls in Hades and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day? A simple YES or NO would do.

Let`s assume your answer would be yes (because according to Christ in Matthew 7, there are souls going to hell), then I'm telling you that God has failed in His mission of "drawing all men unto him" according to your interpretation of John 12:32.

Unless no one goes to hell then my understanding of John 12:32 is erroneous. But if there are multitudes in hell, your understanding is erroneous.
---christan on 10/21/12


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Phil, you state that Jesus died for all, implying every single person. That is not a fact. "all" here means all His children.
"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name "Jesus" for He will save "His people" from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).
Christ came to carry into effect God's sovereign purpose of election, to save people already "His" by covenant settlement. The people whom God hath "from the beginning chosen unto salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13).
(Luke 19:10) doesn't say Christ came to seek and to save "all" the lost. Because two thirds of human history had died and were already in Hell when He entered Bethlem's manger.
---Mark_V. on 10/21/12


---christan on 10/20/12

It is not theology. It is the declaration of God.

I WILL draw all men unto me.

There is no reasoning involved, only believing God.

G86 haides properly rendered unseen,
KJV: grave, hell.

Hebrew sheol is haides in Greek. This is not theology. All who die are in their graves, awaiting the Resurrector of all.

It is His to impart life to the dead. It does not occur apart from Him.

This too, is a declaration:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
---Phil on 10/20/12


Phil, you use John 12:32 to justify everyone will be saved. Again and again you sound so foolish. Here's why:

If you're right, explain: are there multitudes who have died and are now in Hades? If your answer is yes, then it proves your understanding to the John 12:32 is erroneous.

Jesus explicitly tells us who is the "all". "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 12:32

Conclusion to Christ declaration above, is that those who are now in Hades were definitely not given to Him by the Father, right?

Back to the drawing board with your theology of universal atonement.
---christan on 10/20/12


---christan on 10/19/12
"So who does God really love in the world? Everyone? Ya, right. You may think you have all the data but truth be told, your "formulation" lacks truth and understanding."

Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Was He lifted up from the earth?

Will He draw all men unto Himself?

Does God keep His word?

There is something incredibly strange in a heart that cannot conceive of the God of Love not needing lovers.

You have few in your company.
---Phil on 10/20/12


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Phil, you are lost for words because you do not understand so many things. First of all God is the Father of all His children, those born of God the Holy Spirit, He is not the Father of the wicked. They have a different father. Jesus said,
"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech?" unbelievers have no understanding (Rom. 3:11). "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:42-44).
Do you youself not understand Jesus very words as those people in the passage? All Scripture makes sense Phil, when read correctly. peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 10/20/12


"Your formulation lacks data." Phil

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them." John 17:9,10

So who does God really love in the world? Everyone? Ya, right. Jesus said, "them which thou hast given me, for they are thine", and who are these God has given to the Son? His elect of course, for they are all over the world! Hence, John 3:16.

You may think you have all the data but truth be told, your "formulation" lacks truth and understanding.
---christan on 10/19/12


---christan on 10/19/12 "And they say that God loves everyone and is trying to save them all, which according to the Scripture is indeed a blatant lie to the core."

Jn 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son.

1Ti 4:10...for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.

Your formulation lacks data.
---Phil on 10/19/12


Phil, do not feel dismayed or at a loss for words.

I for one do not deny that God is indeed love, which is truth and His love is absolute and perfect. But what they do not say or tell is that God also hates. And they say that God loves everyone and is trying to save them all, which according to the Scripture is indeed a blatant lie to the core.

Paul taught in Romans 9:13, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Does this tell us that God loves everybody? No! He loves ONLY the elect and Jacob was an elect.

It's indeed His love that saves the sinner, only if they were His elect "before the foundations of the world". And that's the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
---christan on 10/19/12


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---Mark_V. on 10/18/12
---christan on 10/18/12

Brothers, I am at a loss for words and dismayed.

I lack the acuity you both possess of your knowledge of our Father's heart.

I must be mistaken.

It is presumptuous of me to think He is like any other upright father desiring the love of his own children.

Perhaps He should not be called "Father", as that is too human a word for God.
---Phil on 10/19/12


Phil, I also disagree with you when you said,

"God's deepest desire is to be loved and adored by His creatures." Phil"

Let me explain something to you about God. God is self-contianed, self-sufficient, self-satisfied, in need of nothing. You need to understand this. Had a universe, had angels, had human beings been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them when He did, added nothing to God essentially. He changes not (Mal. 3:6).
Just be careful when you speak about God. It is important that we have the right view of God first. That He did create was simply for His manifestative glory.
---Mark_V. on 10/18/12


Phil, let's get somethings clear and straight. First and foremost, God is Spirit and Holy. Whereas, man is dust and sinful. Do you seriously think we're in the same league with the Creator?

Hence, God's love is rooted in His Holiness while the man's rooted in sin, complete contradiction isn't it?

Did I make light of a parent love to a child in any of my blog? I don't and won't even go there but only to tell you there's a great gulf between God's love and the man's carnal love. If your perverted mind think God's a puppet master from Scripture shown, that's your problem.

Here's another, Psalm 115:3 declares "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased."
---christan on 10/18/12


Is this even Scriptural?
You make God out to be such a desperate God,---christan on 10/18/12

This almost needs no response.

The most tragic and emotional experiences in this life are found in unrequited or lost love.

A child spurning its parent, a friend's betrayal, a life-long spouse taken in death.

How about the parent who loses its child to cancer or fatal injury? Is the love lost not the most painful of all things?

You cannot be serious.

Such reasoning that places God as a puppet master with just so many toys to play with is disturbing.
---Phil on 10/18/12


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So, to refine the matter as you did, is not incorrect, just not to the point.
---Phil on 10/16/12

Your statement was "Ephesians 4 explains what gifts remain. Languages is not one of them".

As I said, only one passage even mentions tongues and its not Ephesians 4.

For you to make the statement that Ephesians 4 explains what gifts are left is incorrect because Ephesians 4 does not speak of the gifts.

Let me illustrate. The gift of healing, where is it in Ephesians 4? Is it operating under an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, teacher, or under them all? Where is the gift of word of wisdom in Ephesians 4? Or the gift of discerning of spirits?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/18/12


"God's deepest desire is to be loved and adored by His creatures." Phil

Is this even Scriptural? You make God out to be such a desperate God, seeking "love" from the creatures He created. When God commanded Moses to demand Pharaoh to let His people go, what was the message from God?

"Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exodus 5:1, repeated again in Exodus 7:16, 8:1,20, 9:1,13. And what was the act of "feasting"? Most definitely not merry making, I say. They were going to "worship" God in the wilderness!
---christan on 10/18/12


Christan, I totally agree with your answer when you said,
"There's no more of such coming prophesy where the "speaking of tongues" is to happen. Anyways, with faith from God - why do you even need to see such things? Isn't the written Word sufficient?
The Word of God is sufficient for us. The people in the Apostolic age, did not have the New Testament written down yet. For close to 1,800 years, no one spoke in tongues at Churches. All of a sudden, it was introduced to the church. Second, the Holy Spirit is Sovereign in the distribution of the gifts. No one person has all the gifts, nor are we to seek them. We now have churches teaching others how they can speak in tongues, and even go to school to get them.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/12


---Mark_Eaton on 10/16/12

Eph 4:8 Wherefore He is saying, Ascending on high, He captures captivity And gives gifts to mankind... And the same One gives these, indeed, as apostles, yet these as prophets, yet these as evangelists, yet these as pastors and teachers

1C 12:29 Not all are apostles. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers. Not all have powers.

Regardless of the operation, they are all gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is the channel through which we are connected to Christ.

Whether an it be an "office" or grace-effect, all are of Holy Spirit and its action on earth.

So, to refine the matter as you did, is not incorrect, just not to the point.
---Phil on 10/16/12


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I complained to God a long time ago, because I don't have the gift of tongues. He said, "you have other gifts".
---pat on 10/16/12


Ephesians 4 explains what gifts remain. Languages is not one of them.
---Phil on 10/16/12

I have to disagree with this comment.

Ephesians 4 is the "offices" section and describes the offices in the Body of Christ. The gifts are described in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. Only one passage includes tongues, 1 Cor 12.

I believe we struggle to understand and accept the gifts because of our fleshly pride. For example:

I don't want to accept a word of wisdom from another brother, therefore that gift is not working today.

I did not get healed at a "healing" service, so the healing gift is not working today.

I cannot speak in other tongues, therefore that gift is not working today.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/16/12


God's deepest desire is to be loved and adored by His creatures. We are made in His image, and desire to be loved just as much.

When God is calling out elect ones, they may find themselves in one of the sects.

Frequently those sects are proponents of Kingdom theology, which is based upon the Lord's words to His own people.

This is a problem, because there is only one Apostle that God appointed for the nations, that is Paul. Paul alone has the truth for today.

The grace-effect gift of languages is past, as is the Kingdom preached by the Twelve. It will be brought forth again just prior to the Lord's coming to Israel.

Ephesians 4 explains what gifts remain. Languages is not one of them.
---Phil on 10/16/12


"Why is tongues desired so much?"

So that one can BOAST over another, period. That's the sin of PRIDE. Anyways, the "speaking of tongue" that happened in Acts 2 was the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy of Pentecost Day. A specific and particular event that's fulfilled. There's no more of such coming prophesy where the "speaking of tongues" is to happen. Anyways, with faith from God - why do you even need to see such things? Isn't the written Word sufficient?

"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29
---christan on 10/16/12


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francis, you blew me away with your answer. It was the best one I heard on the topic of tongues.
You said,

"Most people in the world today go to building / churches where everyone has a common language and is fluent in that language.
In the days of the apostles, people went to the same building be it synagogue, or temple and they spoke different languages, so tongues was needed with interpreters."


I spoke in the english tongue at my spanish church. I had a headset on, and those who didn't understand spanish, I interpreted in english. We had over 40 bro/sisters who only understood english so they wore a headset also to hear me. It was hard many times to keep up with the pastor. I did that for several years.
---Mark_V. on 10/16/12


Most people in the world today go to building / churches where everyone has a common language and is fluent in that language.

In the days of the apostles, people went to the same building be it synagogue, or temple and they spoke different languages, so tongues was needed with interpreters.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven

Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Acts 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
---francis on 10/15/12


Rita H it isn't that tongues are desired so much,it is the fact that tongues are only an outward sign of an inward change,and it is the Holy Ghost who is desired to fill a persons whole Temple,which we are,and empower them for service to God. Many denominations have taught that tongues aren't God,or tongues are over and not for now and God will never force even a Spiritual Gift on someone if they refuse to believe the Holy Ghost,tongues,and all the Spiritual Gifts are alive and still given. Acts 1:4-5 Jesus commanded the Apostles to "wait for the gift my Father promised"."-in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost". If worth waiting for then,it is now. Ask God for HG in Jesus Name.
---Darlene_1 on 10/15/12


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