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Explain A Sin Covering

Can anyone explain the difference between sins being Covered in the OT verses completely washed away in the New, and why this is important.

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 ---kathr4453 on 10/17/12
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francis, that's why there is a difference between covered and taken away.

If I have a pile of dirty cloths on the floor and don't want to look at then, I may COVER them up, or put a covering over them,however they are still there under the covering still dirty.

BUT If I take them away, throw then in the washer, that's totally different.

Jesus blood alone has washed away our sin. Washed us white as snow.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/12


HUH!?? franois. The covering for sin in The OLD COVEVANT! Was WAS the blood of bulls And goats! NOW IT IS THE BLOOD Of CHRIST! Read it again please.
---JMarc on 10/24/12


"We are counted for righteousness on account of OUR FAITH in believing in the one who justifies the UNGODLY!" kathr

Where then is this 'FAITH" you have from? Was it from within yourself or is it from without? Was it from God. If its from God, why do you boast that you are righteous? Afterall, isn't the righteousness that's credited to the Christian, is the righteousness of Christ?

And if you're UNGODLY, on what grounds did God justify you? Because you exercised your "free-will" to go to His Son even when He told you that you were "dead in sin and trespasses"? If "dead", how did you raise yourself to go to Christ? Even Lazarus couldn't achieve what you did. Wow!
---christan on 10/24/12


kathr, your ignorance and denial of the Sovereignty of God stands out. You tell us about the Pharaohs, that they did this and that. You ignore the very cause of how Joseph and the people of Israel ended up in slavery. Joseph didn't, for he humbly acknowledged:

"So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and He hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt." Genesis 45:8

In short, it was predestinated that such an event will happen just as He predestinated His Son to come and "die for the sins of His people". And Jesus accomplished the mission His Father gave to Him. Which He said before He died, "It is finished".
---christan on 10/24/12


"You are ALL trying to speak for the mind of God. Who can know it?" MarkEaton

Discussing predestination, freewill vs no freewill is an unwritten mystery? Funny, it's in the Holy Bible and God has told us all we need to know about them. However, He doesn't tell us who He has chosen but make no mistake He declares that He has chosen.

As for predestination, many hate this doctrine and that's because they think that they are in control of everything. Is that so? Not if you read the Bible.

Finally, there's nothing worse than trying to sit on the fence and play the peacemaker of Truth vs Lies. It simply makes one a compromiser. At least, those who speak lies are convicted by what they believe in.
---christan on 10/24/12




The covering for sin in the old covenant was the blood of bulls & goats,
---J_Marc on 10/24/12

HUH?
Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
---francis on 10/24/12


The covering for sin in the old covenant was the blood of bulls & goats, The new covenant Is the blood of the real Christ (the anointed Messiah)! Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.1st Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

P.S. Happy Birthday James L !!
---J_Marc on 10/24/12


Mark_Eaton, the blog question is not about predestination, but about the importance of the FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST that were finished upon His death and resurrection, and not before.

Why must all calvinists trash every blog with their no free will and predestination and turn every subject into their narrow-minded and unregenerate understanding of what these poor souls have only been taught by man.

Predestinaltion is not as much a mystery as some would like you to believe.

The MYSTERY is "Christ in you," not predestination. And even that has been revealed.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/12


Mark/Christan/Jack/Kathr:

Could we declare a truce about Predestination / Free Will and Calvanism / Arminianism?

You are ALL trying to speak for the mind of God. Who can know it? Does any of us understand what it means to predestine anything before the foundation of the world?

I for one will admit there are a great many things in the Bible I do not understand. Many seeming contradictions. I chalk them up to being human and seeing dimly.

We do not understand nor will ever understand the complete plan of Salvation that God put into place. If we did, we would be God.

Can we all shake hands and say we will agree to disagree?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/24/12


Prompt? Did God have to prompt Israel to go into slavery? christan//

What does that hqve to do with anything.

There arose a King in Egypt who knew not Joseph. And it was this Pharoah, who, because he knew not that Israel was already God's chosen people through Joseph, that put them in bondage. God already declared to Abraham before hand. I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.

The second Pharoah was cursed by his own ignorance! The first Pharoah was BLESSED by Blessing Joseph who was teh son of Israel!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/12




A man is not saved because he believes, he believes because he is saved.(MarkV)

Mark, but that is not what scripture says at all.

Romans 5:1,2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

Bottom line. You are not "under grace" until you exhibit faith.

God never commanded anyone to sin. He ordained they would.(MarkV)

You do realize that the word "ordained" means to "fix or establish by order or command"? You sound very confused, sir.
---JackB on 10/24/12


People sin because they want to sin. That they would is ordained by God. If He doesn't know they would, He would not be Omniscienct, knowing all. Nothing you do surprises God.(MarkV)

So now you believe God predicts the future? Youve gone on record in the past as saying that He cant know the future before it happens (the word "impossible" was used) and that He instead causes prophecies to be played out rather than being omniscient.

If youve had a change of heart, thats great. But please clarify for me so I dont accuse you of putting your foot in your mouth.
---JackB on 10/24/12


Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth "the ungodly," his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is the complete opposite of what markv is stating here. We are counted for righteousness on account of OUR FAITH in believing in the one who justifies the UNGODLY!.

You don't have to become GODLY first to have faith or be justified.
---kathr4453 on 10/24/12


"You've taken that verse so far out of its context that it's not even funny." JamesL

I'm out of context? Tell us, what was the purpose of you showing the word "free-will" the first time round? To tell everyone here they have a "free-will" to choose Christ? And I'm out of context? Now that's funny.

"God began this good work in them by prompting them to give it"

Prompt? Did God have to prompt Israel to go into slavery? You serious? This is what He declared, "...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." What kind of god are you worshiping?
---christan on 10/24/12


"you have faith in Jesus Christ. I also have faith in Jesus Christ. With that settled, how ELSE do you determine who the "elect" of God are?" JackB

I'm not here to judge who's an elect, but God knows. The Word does say: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:36,37

Satisfied?
---christan on 10/24/12


\\"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

Do you see anywhere in this verse it's up to the sinner's free-will? Not even close.\\
---christan on 10/19/12


You've taken that verse so far out of its context that it's not even funny.

The "good work" was a money offering that the Macedonians gave to bankroll Paul's missionary journey, and Paul was reassuring them that their money would be used by God to accomplish his purpose.

God began this good work in them by prompting them to give it
---James_L on 10/24/12


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Jack B, you say,
" According to scripture its faith in Jesus Christ that saves the man, not faith that he was saved before he came to Christ. Care to explain your position,
not according to the Bible. A person is saved by Grace "through faith" If a person has faith it's because God granted faith to him so he could believe.
A man is not saved because he believes, he believes because he is saved. Even the beginning of faith, the disposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God. Paul says, we are saved through faith, that is, as the instrumental cause, but never once does he say that we are saved "on account" of faith, that is, as the meritorious cause.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/12


Jack B 2: you say,

"Would you spank your child for stealing, when you commanded them to steal in the first place? Of course not! Is God now less just than sinners? "

God never commanded anyone to sin. He ordained they would. Get it right. People sin because they want to sin. That they would is ordained by God. If He doesn't know they would, He would not be Omniscienct, knowing all. Nothing you do surprises God.
"A man's heart deviseth his way: But the Lord directed his steps" (Prov. 16:9).
"You ought to say, If the Lord will" (James 4:13,15).
"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things, to whom be glory forever" (Rom.11:36).
---Mark_V. on 10/24/12


Im sorry MarkV. I guess I missed something. At what point did I deny the truth of Jesus Christ?

He is God come in the flesh. The ONLY way to the Father. The ONLY way that a man is saved. He died for my sin and was resurrected from the dead on my behalf. As scripture directs us, I called upon his name and He now lives IN me giving me power over sin in my daily life. He kept his promise.

Must I believe in the doctrine of predestination to be saved? I didnt believe in it when Christ came into my heart. According to scripture its faith in Jesus Christ that saves the man, not faith that he was saved before he came to Christ. Care to explain your position a bit more clearly, Mark?
---JackB on 10/23/12


MarkV, but let me ask you, why didn't you include Darlene1 in your list here.

Darlene1 also, believes in free will. By the way Darlene1 EXCELLENT POST. I agree 100%.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


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ya know christan, these words you use, like HATERS OF GOD, filthy rags, don't throw your pearls to the swine kinda stuff was never meant for believing Christians.

You continually try to exalt your self over others in your self righteous posturing that does absolutely NOTHING but make you look like an idiot. Who do you think you are, Constantine? Are you planning to burn anyone at the stake?

PROVE to every one here beyond a shaddow of a doubtYOU ARE ONE OF THE ELECT.

You can't. So what you do is blow your own horn!

Christians do not ever have to blow their own horn. THAT should be a red flag to anyone!
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


Kathr/Jack, I also know that both of you were chosen by God, to refude and reject the truth written by God. God knew in advance you both would do that at this point in time. You know why I know? Because you are doing right now. If later in time He wants to change both of your hearts, then both of you will be speaking for the Truth of God and not bypassing Scripture after Scripture of God's word and then rejecting it, and teaching others God's word is wrong. Then you will know the truth and it will set you free, and that doesn't mean you will have free will, but you will be set from the slavery of sin against God.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


Jack, God ordained all descendants of Adam be born in sin including His elect. God ordained to draw each one of His elect to Himself, (John 6:44) by bringing spiritual life, (Eph. 2:4-19) and to receive salvation through sanctification of the Spirit. We give thanks to God because God hath from the beginning has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth (2 Thess. 2:13).
There is no future event which is only a mere possibility, something which may are may not come to pass,
"Known unto God are all His works from the beginning" (Acts 15:18).
"There is many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand" (Prov. 19:21).
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


Just a word about free will,we choose God,and no will,which prechooses God's people. Think on this, God created man for fellowship with Him,when we receive Christ we come into that fellowship,1 John 1-4. God wants loyality but not by demand but from our love of God because we are free to follow sin or follow God,our choice. God wants victory in all He does,it is His to expect,and there is no victory in chaining a person to Him from before they are born. God predestined,foreordained, all men through Christ scarifice to have a chance for a relationship with God and He calls all men who hear the Word but not all accept that or Him. Faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the Word of God.
---Darlene_1 on 10/23/12


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So Christan/Mark/whoever, you honestly believe that God ordained that all men be born evil and then condemned them for being exactly what He made them?

I think you're slightly misinterpreting that scripture and the reason why you can't see it any other way is you've been deceived into believing you are challenging Gods sovereignty by doing so. That's a shame. Fear can often stop someone from growing.

Would you spank your child for stealing, when you commanded them to steal in the first place? Of course not! Is God now less just than sinners? This doctrine is twisted. That is NOT the God of scripture. I'm shocked that anyone reading the entire Bible could come away with this conception of what LOVE is.
---JackB on 10/23/12


Christan, you have faith in Jesus Christ. I also have faith in Jesus Christ.

With that settled, how ELSE do you determine who the "elect" of God are?
---JackB on 10/23/12


"I must ask. Since you were born a sinner, is that Gods fault as well? Didnt he ordain that?" JackB

And the answer is simple:

"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Romans 9:18-21

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
---christan on 10/23/12


MarkV and Christan fail to read their own scriptures. WHAT were you forordained or chosen FOR?

You stop at election, predestination and for-ordained, yet don't finish what WE were chosen/elect "FOR".

Israel was elect to be God's representatives on earth, and to bring in the Messiah THROUGH JACOB not Esau.

So, now that Jesu has come, The Church, His Body is Elect FOR WHAT?

No christan and markv,I know and believe EXACTLY what and why WE were chosen and predestined. We meaning the Body of Christ.

Just as no individual Jew was chosen in Israel, but the WHOLE of Israel for a purpose, teh WHOLE of the Body was chosen for a purpose as well. Your own verses prove it!
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


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Mark, thats about as pointless as asking for a Bible verse that says God made the sky blue.

Does scripture really need to say that before you will see what is plainly there?

Youre the only person I know who can claim they have read all of scripture and came away with man not having a choice in what he does. I think youre simply afraid of your own choices and the consequences that come with them.

I must ask. Since you were born a sinner, is that Gods fault as well? Didnt he ordain that?
---JackB on 10/22/12


MarkV, such is their hate of the Truth that God has elected and predestinated some for salvation and others for damnation is one clear sign of their denial of Jesus Christ and His purpose and will that the Father sent Him to do. Christ declared before He gave up His life, "It is finished."

To these haters of God, "it's still not finished" and that's because the man still needs to do his part in believing Christ, adding on to the work of Christ with their "filthy rags"

Alas, we who have received grace and mercy cannot boast but continue to witness and testify of this Truth.
---christan on 10/23/12


In the RSV, the single word "freewill" occurs 24 times in 22 verses (Exodus 35:29 to Amos 4:5).

The 2 words "free will" occur TWO TIMES...

2 Corinthians 8:3 "of their own free will".

Philemon 1:14 "of your own free will".

I know it sounds silly, but after 2,000 years,
the body of Christ should develop the good habit of...

.....paying attention to scripture (just a suggestion).
---more_excellent_way on 10/23/12


michael_e seems to think the mystery was Jesus came to die in a car wreck, and then rise from the dead from there...but OH NO, the Jews murdered Him and had Him nailed to a Roman CROSS called Crucifixion. Yet Paul's Christ "CRUCIFIED" is what michael_e says is the Gospel according to the Mystery that Gentiles prosper off of that very fact, where Jews do not.

Of coarse you have no free will to rebuke that nonsense, do you markv! You've programmed to say:

no free will,
I'm the Elect

And just think, Paul would not be preaching CHRIST "CRUCIFIED" would he if Jesus died in a car wreck! Or, was Jesus supppose to have Asked the Romans, Hay dudes, would you be so kind as to nail me to a cross until I die.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


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Kathr, again, you speak lies together with slander,
"Since Gentiles were never called God's ELECT, then John 3:16 include those who were never God's Elect."
Read (1 Peter 1:2)Peter was speaking to the church which consisted of mainly of Gentiles and some Jews.
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied"
And:
"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


MarkV, i will be more than happy to show you free will, BUT

First you show us "the words":

Trinity
Irresistable Grace
Total depravity
Covenant of Grace
NO FREE WILL
Limited atonement
Calvin
TULIP

Just for starters. That should keep you occupied fo a while.

Now verses that YOU can interpret anyway you want is off limits. We need the very WORDS. Those exact words.

Fair is fair!
---kathr4453 on 10/23/12


kathr, how does someone who shows you Scriptures after Scriptures declared by Christ that there's no such a thing as "free-will" is in judgement of what you say. How?

You rant and foam about man having "free-will" and against "election" that it only pertains to the nation Israel and yet you show no Scriptures that explicitly supports your understanding.

I've got bad news for you, I do not judge you but the Word of God does that. And it contradicts your understanding and believe of what you declare from your very heart.

Scriptures does not contradict Scriptures, period. But it contradicts the man who lies.
---christan on 10/23/12


Kathr, as I asked the SDA's I ask you also. Show one passage where God told people they had a free will. Just one. Don't throw your satan at me as you did to Michael e. Keep him to yourself.
SDA's claim that God commanded man to do Saturday Sabbath, and to this day none of them have found one passage. Maybe you can. Look up the word "free will." with your beliefs you should find hundreds of them in the Bible if God really said that man's will was free. All I read is that the lost are slaves of sin and doing the desires of their father the devil, they are slaves not free, and that those who are saved are slaves of God. Maybe there is another group you read of. I am waiting.
---Mark_V. on 10/22/12


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Mark_Eaton,

I agree. No better time than right now.
---Nana on 10/22/12


What agency man holds in his fate is clear.
---Nana on 10/22/12

Thank you Nana, I was looking for that Scripture. It is a great passage, Ezekiel 37-39. I believe we will soon see the Battle of Gog and Magog whenever Israel makes the first strike against Iran.

We are the current day watchmen. We need to be telling the world around us that time is short, the Lord is returning very soon, examine your life and your relationship with Jesus.

If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we stand before Jesus and expect to hear "well done"?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/22/12


Oh now you are under conviction and say Judge not!

What hypocrisy we have here...


And do youthink bolding God's word is more powerful?

You sure do your share of judging christan.

The Word of God will judge you in the end. And YOU won't be able to hide behind any verse that says JUDGE NOT!

STOP BOYCOTTING THE GOSPEL!
---kathr4453 on 10/22/12


"Your standing in the way of sinners Christan, and sitting in the seat of the scornful....WOE TO YOU!" kathr

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:1-5
---christan on 10/22/12


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Ezekiel 3:17_19 "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul."

What agency man holds in his fate is clear.
---Nana on 10/22/12


16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Need I say it again?

Everytime anyone preaches the Gospel here YOU and MarkV, jump in and say NO FREE WILL.

Your standing in the way of sinners Christan, and sitting in the seat of the scornful....WOE TO YOU!
MOVE IT OUT OF THE WAY christan, and Let the Word of God do it's work without your incessent commentary on what every verse means and doesn't mean.

Yes the Prophets proclaimed a savior who would not only save Jews but Gentiles alike. Since Gentiles were never called God's ELECT, then John 3:16 include those who were never God's Elect.
---kathr4453 on 10/22/12


"...are you suggesting those OT prophets and what they said no longer applies to today?" kathr

Is that what I was even suggesting in my reply to you? Go read again what I wrote and tell me again that's what I implied.

Let me help, you accused me of "Every time you do, YOU kill over and over the Lord and his prophets" and I replied "how did I "kill over and over" according to you by telling you and some here that there's no such thing as "free-will" and that God has elected?" How's that even what you accuse me of doing to the OT prophets?

Here's one from the OT specially for you, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour".
---christan on 10/21/12


Christan, are you suggesting those OT prophets and what they said no longer applies to today?

The whole of the church and foundation of salvation is based upon the PROPHETS and Apostles.

When you continue to stand in the way of the Gospel with your "RELIGION" you are no different than the Pharisees.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/12


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kathr, first of all, are there still "prophets" alive these days? I thought the Bible explicitly told us the last of God's prophet was His Son Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:1-4).

And how did I "kill over and over" according to you by telling you and some here that there's no such thing as "free-will" and that God has elected? Am I preaching a lie? Well, according to His Word, I do not think so. But if you tell others they have a "free-will" to turn to Christ and God has yet to have chosen, according to Scriptures, you're lying.

So, we have "already picked our poison". Let us await Judgement Day and see who has the Truth.
---christan on 10/21/12


1 Thessalonians 2:15-17
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us, and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Christan, you are no different than hard harded pharisee, having already judged and condemned many to hell.
Every time you do, YOU kill over and over the Lord and his prophets, where God's WRATH will be coming upon you!
---kathr4453 on 10/21/12


"Why did God say WARN THE WICKED or their blood will be on your hands? Because God wants to hold you accountable for those He Hates?" kathr

So when you say "warn the wicked", tell me what are you warning them about? That they have the "free-will" to turn to Christ?

God does not "hold you accountable for those He hates", but He will hold you accountable for your sins toward Him. And no one escapes this judgement unless like Noah, you are found IN His son, Christ Jesus. And is everyone given to His Son. Explicitly, the Bible says, NO!

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37
---christan on 10/20/12


kathr4453 on 10/19/12

Here is what you are missing
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

So it was not just " covering up" it was actually cleansing from sin

Now here is the main thing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience,

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
---francis on 10/20/12


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MOE, your ability to quote verses in the Scriptures doesn't even come close to understanding the will of God. You can use all the verses to justify what you believe and vice-versa of me or anyone.

But you will always hit the brick-wall of no free-will in the man by the words Christ spoke in His Gospel teachings from Matthew to John. That's why you always only quote from OTs and some of the epistles, which then your understanding becomes questionable and erroneous.

I believe that the Bible speaks of "action specifics" as compared to your "choice specifics". Meaning, God tells us this is what a saint does and a reprobate will do - hence the history lesson He gives to us in the Bible. Which is very sobering.
---christan on 10/20/12


---kathr4453 on 10/19/12
I see what you are saying. the idea here is that sin was covered and that sin was washed away are two differentthings

They really are one and the same.

This is explained in Gods sanctuary, see Hebrews 8 and 9 and 10
---francis on 10/20/12


OT lamb daily sacrifice required to cleanse Hebrews from sin. At his death the Lord Jesus replaced the lamb, then by repentance to God past sins forgiven by the Lords death, once converted from sinners life future sins are confessed to the Lord.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/20/12


And you call that nasty? Didn't the Bible say Christ was coming to destroy the world and man has no free-will? So, God must be nasty then. Funny, once a pot always a pot, always calling the kettle black.
---christan on 10/19/12


And you think because the Wrath of God is coming that man has no ability to repent and be saved from that wrath to come?

That's where you're wrong christan. Even Noah preached for 125 years before the flood..

Any YOU feel no need to share the Gospel with anyone? Or to warn the Wicked? THAT'S what's wrong with you hyper-calvinists.

Why did God say WARN THE WICKED or their blood will be on your hands? Because God wants to hold you accountable for those He Hates?
---kathr4453 on 10/20/12


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Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

No one before Jesus death and resurrection were MADE PERFECT/Complete. Their perfection/completeness as does ours came AFTER the Cross.

We are NOW Complete IN HIM.
---kathr4453 on 10/20/12


Christan, The Jewish practice of animal sacrifice to receive forgiveness stopped in the year A.D. 70 when the Roman army destroyed the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of A.D. 132-135, but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.

Essentially, Jews stopped offering sacrifices because they didn't have a proper place to offer them. The Torah (the Law of Moses) specifically commanded Israel not to offer sacrifices wherever they felt like it. They were only permitted to offer sacrifices in the one place that God has chosen for that purpose **Deuteronomy 12:13-14.
---kathr4453 on 10/20/12


Israel had only "ONE HUSBAND" (stewart, caretaker) over the 'household of God'.

1 Corinthians 11:2 ("betrothed"=engaged)

"for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride".

The house of Israel ("her") had defiled itself and "played the harlot".

Jeremiah 3:8 "I had sent her away with a decree of divorce...played the harlot".

Paul explained to the Jews that they needed to be presented as a "PURE" bride and that it could happen ONLY IF they were they were engaged/"betrothed" to THE FINAL SIN SACRIFICE (Jesus).....God "chose" TO REVEAL the sacrificial lamb to them, but they had to CHOOSE to accept Jesus SINCERELY.
---more_excellent_way on 10/20/12


Christan, now I see where you're coming from. You're from the "He chose us" crowd and you believe that we don't HAVE THE ABILITY to CHOOSE HIM.


God didn't choose to reveal His "whole fulness" (JESUS and His Spirit) to the Jews (the Jews only worshipped 'CREATOR JEHOVAH', not "FATHER", because they didn't know He had a son (Jesus had not been revealed to them....("THEY SHALL NEVER enter my rest" [rest in JESUS]).

The cheap excuse of "OUT OF CONTEXT" is old and worn out (it's simply standard jargon/lingo and a cheap cop-out),....have some self-respect!)...and stop trying to change the subject....another cop-out (scared of losing your 'intellectual king' top dog status, huh?).
---more_excellent_way on 10/20/12


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"Can you imagine if animal sacrifices were brought back? The Animal rights people would be having a fit!" kathr

And this practiced have ceased today? Maybe you should go ask the Jews and Muslims if they are worried about the Animal rights people? You're way out of context to what I was writing about, as usual.

"But what does MEW comments have to do with your nasty reply re: no free will? or end times?"

And you call that nasty? Didn't the Bible say Christ was coming to destroy the world and man has no free-will? So, God must be nasty then. Funny, once a pot always a pot, always calling the kettle black.
---christan on 10/19/12


francis, Romans 4 is telling us, that salvation, beginning from God "covering" Adam /Eve with an animal skin pointed to Christ who would one day IN HIS SACRIFICE of Himself would do more than just COVER, but completely put away sin altogether.

So yes, they were forgiven just as you and I. The wording is "TAKE AWAY" sin. The issue was never about being forgiven vs not being forgiven. And teh blood of bulls and goats could never make anyone PERFECT. Heb 10. Perfect is a key word too.

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
---kathr4453 on 10/19/12


"God is SO MUCH BIGGER that any free will He gave to created man." kathr

Ya right! And your free-will god is SO BIG that he cannot even save the man from his sin unless the man chooses to be save. What a joke! Which in actual words, MAKES THE MAN BIGGER than your god, right? That's because your god is unable to save the sinner because his free-will opposes your free-will god.

Does this sound like your free-will god, who's a failure in saving the sinner?

"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

Do you see anywhere in this verse it's up to the sinner's free-will? Not even close.
---christan on 10/19/12


I think it goes back to Exodus 19:8. All of Israel agreed to be the Lord's nation. In chapter 32 they've made the calf, the covenant broken.= Death. Christ washed away 'that' sin as well as all sin.
---cindy on 10/19/12


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Can anyone explain the difference between sins being Covered in the OT verses completely washed away in the New, and why this is important.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/12
" washed away" and "covered" are expressions that mean the same thing.It means that God has forgiven you of your sins

Romans 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
---francis on 10/19/12


"2,000 years ago, life was VERY CRUDE, the people were UNCIVILIZED...." MEW//
I can imagine that it was crude. No modern plumbing...no refrigeration/ no Walmart, no desposible pampers.

Good Grief christan. Can you imagine if animal sacrifices were brought back? The Animal rights people would be having a fit!

But what does MEW comments have to do with your nasty reply re: no free will? or end times?

God is SO MUCH BIGGER that any free will He gave to created man. Your God is so small. Small enough to be another Stephen Spielburg. Lights camera action...ok now read your lines EXACTLY as I wrote them for you to say..word for word...otherwise I won't know how it is going to end!
---kathr4453 on 10/19/12


Christan, do you persecute everyone by accusing them of what they didn't say?....you do that OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

We are only HUMAN and don't have the ability to understand 'THE DIVINE', so God bridged the gap by providing us with....


1) His Son (THE WORD OF GOD") and...

2) HIS SPIRIT to teach us HOW to "understand" truth.

Ephesians 1:13 "the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (the gospel/good news is WRITTEN TEXT).

The gentiles that chose to BELIEVE were ordained to ETERNAL LIFE and glorified the one responsible for it.

Acts 13:48 "and glorified the word of God, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".
---more_excellent_way on 10/19/12


"2,000 years ago, life was VERY CRUDE, the people were UNCIVILIZED...." MEW

...and you actually believe after 2,000 years later today, life is getting better in this world? Seriously? You bring judgement upon yourself from the very words you speak.

Do you believe we're living in the "end-times"? Meaning, anytime now Christ will come and destroy the world with His Holy fire of judgement. Ever wondered why it's call Judgement Day?

So don't fool yourself into thinking you are much less "CRUDE & UNCIVILIZED" then those of 2,000 years ago. "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
---christan on 10/19/12


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MEW, the contention of my post is because you said "some Jews accepted JESUS ON THE CROSS (the BLOOD ONLY)".

Where does it say in Scripture the Jews "accepted" Jesus? Or where does Galatians 3 or anywhere in the Scripture says the sinner has to "accept" Christ? That's my point.

Didn't Christ declared: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." This is in contradiction of your "accept" theology.

You can talk about "grace" all you want but the minute you say the sinner has to "accept" by his "free-will", it's no more grace.
---christan on 10/19/12


Christan, To whom was Paul talking to?....(people who lived 2,000 years ago,...LOGICAL?).

2,000 years ago, life was VERY CRUDE, the people were UNCIVILIZED...., they didn't care about their fellow man like the good samaritan did (it was 'uncommon' to love God like the woman who wiped the feet of Jesus, it was very uncommon for anyone to have "living water" in their heart, most people had a heart of stone, Ezekiel 36:26).

SO, Jesus did not just spill BLOOD at the cross, He also brought humanity "living water").

God's SPIRIT does not AGREE with only the blood only (because "God is LOVE"). God's Spirit only agrees with BOTH TOGETHER (there are THREE witnesses, 1 John 5:8, look it up).
---more_excellent_way on 10/19/12


Christan, your verses totally agree with More Excellent Way.

The reason the Galatians fell from Grace is because Yes, they too accepted the Blood, but were persuaded by "the Lawyers" to continue by keeping the Law.

Hebrews 10 is that exact same warning to Jews, putting all three there too, warning,

"The Blood of the Covenant, The Spirit of Grace, and trampling Jesus underfoot."

And the reason so many today believe they can lose their salvation is because they have an OT mentality of a temporary covering, rather than a COMPLETE doing away IN CHRIST.


---kathr4453 on 10/19/12


To the true worshipper, satan no longer exists (we live spiritually inside the one who protects us). 'DIVINE' SIN no longer exists (the word "sin" now only refers to 'personal behavior misdeeds').

Hebrews 2:14 "that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil".

If the Jews had THE FINAL CLEANSING like we do....
Hebrews 10:2 "they would no longer have any consciousness of sin".

After the BLOOD sacrifice at the cross (Hebrews 9, "purification" of the FLESH), Jesus gave THE SPIRIT for us to learn from (John 7:39) so that we could learn to do things right and always have a clear conscience (Hebrews 9:14....purification of the CONSCIENCE).
---more_excellent_way on 10/19/12


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Sins were Never covered in OT sanctuary by animal blood.

What was done under the old covenant was done in faith. In faith That Jesus was come to earth and be the Lamb of God who would be sacrificed for our sins, and that that same Jesus was after his death serve as our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary cleansing us from our sin.

The blood of animals NEVER cleansed one single sin. But those who did their sacrifices had FAITH that the lamb of God would die for their sins

The Old covenant sanctuary system was a schoolmaster, teaching us the plan of redemption, but now that faith has some, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
---francis on 10/18/12


"Two thousand years ago, some Jews accepted JESUS ON THE CROSS (the BLOOD ONLY), but because they also retained obedience to Mosaic law, they did not accept GRACE/THE SPIRIT (the Spirit does not agree with the BLOOD ONLY)." MEA

Really? Paul wrote in Galatians 3

"who hath bewitched you... e ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

You're found wanting!
---christan on 10/18/12


For me, two words come to mind, atonement and remission.

In the OT, atonement by blood was made for the sin of the people and did not remove the sin but "appeased" God. New additional sins would be accumulated and would require additional atonements because permanent atonement through the blood of animals was not possible.

The remission of sins means our sins have been payed for, have been remitted for, and they have been removed or eliminated from our account. They no longer can be held against us. New sins cannot be held to our charge because remission has been done once by Jesus for our entire life of sin.

Praise God for remission of sin!
---Mark_Eaton on 10/18/12


Ministers, churchgoers, and friends will always try to convince you of a 'sin problem' (it's a con game, they want to be 'HERO').

God specifically told the O.T. Jews not to sin against divine law (Levitical/Mosaic law,.....Cain was not "captive to" either law).

Romans 5:13 "not counted where there is no law".

Only violations of the "written code"/divine law can produce divine sin.

Two thousand years ago, some Jews accepted JESUS ON THE CROSS (the BLOOD ONLY), but because they also retained obedience to Mosaic law, they did not accept GRACE/THE SPIRIT (the Spirit does not agree with the BLOOD ONLY).

1 John 5:8 "the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three agree".
---more_excellent_way on 10/18/12


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"The important thing is to put our faith in Jesus and not a theory about how He saves us." Cluny

Faith in Christ is NEVER BLIND and WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. 2 Peter 1:8,9 declares:

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

Salvation in Christ is not a theory, to the Christian it's a reality of grace of how he was saved.
---christan on 10/18/12


Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should "take away sins".

Hebrews 10:11
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, "which can never take away sins":

1 John 3:5
And ye know that He was manifested to "take away our sins", and in Him is no sin.
---kathr4453 on 10/18/12


Most of the Old Testament passages that discuss sacrifices mention the death of the animal, not it's life [Lev. 4:4-5]....In the New Testament, this Old Testament idea of sacrifice is applied to Christ's Blood. [It is the Blood that makes Atonement for the soul]. When we identify with Jesus, we are no longer at odds with God....The meaning of Christ's death is a great mystery. The New Testament seeks to express this meaning in two ways: in the language of sacrifice, and in language pertaining to the sphere of law. Is far more than an enlargement of animal sacrifices or a Spiritualization of legal transaction.
---pat on 10/17/12


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