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Did Christ Die For Us

Did Christ die "for" us, or "instead" of us?

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 ---Phil on 10/20/12
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"In the face of the truth, denial is a refuge." Phil

One day before, you said "No OT saint has been resurrected to life. They are dead in their graves." Were you taking refuge here?

The account of Lazarus and Abraham in Luke 16:20-31 told by Christ must be a Disney production to you, right? And Seg even showed you Matthew 27:51-53.

Hebrews 11:13 says from where you cunningly stopped, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
---christan on 10/30/12


---trey on 10/29/12 "Phil, the scriptures are plain.
Rom5:8:

You are right. As clear as daylight.

The plain declarations of Scripture are only difficult to apprehend when emotion and bias rule over the heart and mind.
---Phil on 10/30/12


Phil, the scriptures are plain.
Rom5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
---trey on 10/29/12


"How can someone be saved and have sin that is unforgiven?" David - This is precisely the heart of an antinomian. You telling us that when you are save, there's no need of repentance to God anymore?

Well, the apostle John has something to say about that, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10. Mind you, John is addressing Christians here and not unbelievers.

Rather contradict your very thought doesn't it?
---christan on 10/29/12


"Confession of sin" and "faith in Christ Jesus" is a given to those who are "born of the Spirit"---christan on 10/29/12

Why would it be necessary for someone who is saved to confess sin, when confession of sin is for the forgiveness of sin?
How can someone be saved and have sin that is unforgiven?
---David on 10/29/12




Heb_11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Of my Father, the Holy Ghost!

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father (upon you:) but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for (the promise of the Father,) which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father (the promise of the Holy Ghost,) he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Rom_4:16 to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed,
---TheSeg on 10/29/12


---TheSeg on 10/28/12
Mat 27:52 And the (graves were opened.

Hb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.

The the King of kings, and Lord of lords, Who only hath immortality

In the face of the truth, denial is a refuge.

They may, as a sign of their faithful lives, been raised, but their corruptible bodies died once more. To say otherwise is to deny the clear statements of Scripture.
---Phil on 10/29/12


"No OT saint has been resurrected to life. They are dead in their graves." Phil

"The same day came to Him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection..." Matthew 22:23, "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit..." Acts 23:8

The spirit of the Sadducee, truly alive among us, exposed under the brilliant light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So, where are you going to hide that the Almighty God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and His elect cannot find? No where to hide.

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matthew 12:34
---christan on 10/29/12


Yes you need to continue in confessing your sin. Initially it is an admission you are a sinner and need salvation. Thereafter it is necessary to maintain the relationship between you and God.
---Buddy on 10/29/12


//important to understand holy scripture never states the Lord died instead of us, or for us//
Ref
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US.
---michael_e on 10/29/12




"Do you believe confession of sin is still required when someone sins after they are "saved"?" David

"Confession of sin" and "faith in Christ Jesus" is a given to those who are "born of the Spirit", they will repent and believe in Christ. To be specific, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." John 1:13. So do qualify how one is saved when you call yourself a Christian.

Even the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, will tell you they also "repent of their sins", are they then "saved"? Most definitely not!
---christan on 10/29/12


Follower, you sound like the J. Witnesses when you use christiandom.

"This is why Christiandom has so many doctrines, ..To believe the Lord died for you, or instead of you is a doctrine of devils and is not written in the word of God."

What you are really admitting is, you are a "Goat" not a sheep. Why should we listen to you concerning the Word of God? You have no spiritual Truth, because you do not believe Jesus died for you. Which is ok, all unbelievers (goats) believe as you do.
"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep." (John 10:15).
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep" (John 10:26).
---Mark_V. on 10/29/12


No OT saint has been resurrected to life. They are dead in their graves.
Phil on 10/28/12

Then you dont believe the Bible.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent,

Mat 27:52 And the (graves were opened, and many bodies of (the saints which slept arose,))

Mat 27:53 And came (out of the graves after his resurrection,) and went into the holy city, (and appeared unto many.)

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
---TheSeg on 10/28/12


---Mark_V. on 10/27/12 " How do you think believers in the Old Testament were saved?"

Only Jesus has been changed into a deathless being.

Being saved is living beyond death's clutches.

No OT saint has been resurrected to life. They are dead in their graves.

Ac 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac and Jacob..
These all died in faith, not having received the promises [Hb 11:13]
Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David, Samuel and the prophets: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise [Hb 11:39]
---Phil on 10/28/12


Proverbs 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

important to understand holy scripture never states the Lord died instead of us, or for us. If you add these words you are ignoring the warning in Proverbs 30:6. This is why Christiandom has so many doctrines, Satans ministers transform themselves into ministers of righteousness teaching people error by adding words not found in the holy word of God. To believe the Lord died for you, or instead of you is a doctrine of devils and is not written in the word of God.

The Lord Jesus is the new passover lamb, and by his death past sins are forgiven. It is appointed once for all men to die, then the resurrection.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/28/12


Are you serious? The verse starts off, "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree...". christan

Christan
Do you believe confession of sin is still required when someone sins
after they are "saved"?
---David on 10/28/12


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"The verse clearly does not say he died as a substitute." David

Are you serious? The verse starts off, "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree...". Peter explicitly says "our" and not "the" - which means Christ's death was very personal and particular.

"If he died as our substitute, there would be no reason for us to die to sin."

Understanding is lacking that's why you cannot reason. To say we "die to sin" is to say that Christ died for us at Calvary. Which means, He died in our place because the law demanded, "the wages of sin is death". If you don't believe He died in your place, you're not in Him.
---christan on 10/27/12


Phil, your application of Romans 10:14-15 to justify your "human effort aided by the spirit" falls flat on the face of Truth. What you are saying is unless you co-operate with the Spirit, God isn't going to get His way.

Tell us, in regeneration which leads to salvation, while you are "dead", how did you co-operate with the Spirit of God to give you life? It's like saying, four day old dead Lazarus co-operated with Christ to rise from the dead when the Lord commanded, "Lazarus, come forth." Did the Lord say "Lazarus, please come forth, please pretty please"?
---christan on 10/27/12


Phil, you should have kept reading!
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Look!
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Peace Bro
---TheSeg on 10/27/12


---christan on 10/26/12
"that it's "man's skill" that will get God's approval is ludicrous."

The two passages highlight the fruit of human effort aided with Spirit. This fruit does not come on its own.

Without the hearing or reading of the word of God, Holy Spirit has no opening to the heart. Ro 10:14-15

The use of "natural" for G5591 psuchikos is inaccurate. It is the same as soul, where emotions, sensations and feelings all reside.

In the soulish man, his psyche or soul yields to the clamor of pride, self-confidence and emotions holding sway over his mind.

Should you acclaim knowledge of God apart from fleshly labor, you would be deceiving no one.
---Phil on 10/27/12


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Phil, you said,

"The spirit of grace, and the administration of it does not appear until Paul's ministry."

You are wrong Phil. How do you think believers in the Old Testament were saved? They were saved by Grace through faith, the same way they are save now. It was not the norm for the Spirit to indwell believers as it did during Pentacost, yet He indwelled some in the Old T. The Spirit was bringing spiritual life to those who were called by God. You assume the Spirit was never around until Pentacost, but you forget the Spirit is God, He has always been around.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/12


---TheSeg on 10/26/12 "Im sorry Phil you really have no idea what you are saying!"

This is the purpose of Scriptures, to refute gainsaying.

I said nothing, I only supplied evidence that there is more than one spirit in this system we are in.

A child is able to read and understand. I believe you to be well beyond that stage.

Perhaps it is a failure to see the obvious, which happens to everyone at times.
---Phil on 10/27/12


1 Peter 2:24 - "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness."(RSV)
Jesus died as a substitute for us.
---Mark_V. on 10/22/12

Jesus died as a substitute for us?
Sir
The verse clearly does not say he died as a substitute. It says he died so that we might die to sin.
If he died as our substuitute, there would be no reason for us to die to sin.
Please use a little reasoning.
---David on 10/27/12


So tell me phil, how many spirit do you see? Why dont you count them?
Because there is only one spirit and this is The Holy Spirit.
Im sorry Phil you really have no idea what you are saying!
Dude! God is a spirit! How many Gods do you think there are?

Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes,
which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co_12:13, Eph_2:18, Eph_4:4, Php_1:27

This is why you should, 1Jn_4:1!
---TheSeg on 10/26/12


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Phil, I don't know which hole you've been sticking your head in. Quoting Hebrews 5:13, 2 Timothy 2:15 and coming to the understanding that it's "man's skill" that will get God's approval is ludicrous.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The sinner who does those things you've quoted is obviously "born of the Spirit", in order to carry out God's commands as directed. So, it's impossible that the "natural man" can do those things without the presence of the Spirit of God in them and please God.
---christan on 10/26/12


---TheSeg on 10/26/12 "Is there more than one Spirit?"

daimonion Lk 4:33
echousa Lk 13:11
alEtheias Jn 14:17
hagiOsunEs Ro 1:4
huiothesias Ro 8:15
katanuxeOs Ro 11:8
anthrOpou 1C 2:11
kosmou 1C 2:12
praotEtos 1C 4:21
pisteOs 2C 4:13
epaggelias Eph 1:13
sophias Eph 1:17
noos Eph 4:23
stomatos 2Th 2:8
deilias 2Ti 1:7
charitos Hb 10:29
doxEs 1Pt 4:14
planEs 1Jn 4:6

Why try the spirits, discerning of spirits, seducing spirits, ministering spirits, the Father of spirits, spirits in prison, the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth?

The capital "S" in spirit is unwarranted. It is never a proper noun.
---Phil on 10/26/12


The spirit of grace, and the administration of it does not appear until Paul's ministry

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I have a question for you guys!
Is there more than one Spirit?
In the OT was there some other Spirit?

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling,
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/26/12


//The spirit of grace, and the administration of it does not appear until Paul's ministry.//

Well put Phil, One would have to try hard to miss what the scriptures say or be steeped in erroneous tradition.
---michael_e on 10/26/12


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---Mark_V. on 10/26/12 "Phil, one bad about dispensationalist is, they asign grace to a perticular time.. We find God graceful all through history"

Zch 12:10 is the first mention of the spirit of grace. An act of grace is not the same as the spirit of grace.

The spirit of grace, and the administration of it does not appear until Paul's ministry.

Eph 3:2 ..the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

It is the bedrock of both the Kingdom evangel and Paul's evangel. Hb 10:29

Finding grace in God's sight is not an administration.[oikonomia]

As I said, the word dispensation is biblical. Changing it to a moniker to marginalize another is a cheapshot.
---Phil on 10/26/12


---christan on 10/25/12 "Where does it say so in the Scriptures that it is human skill that gets the approval of God?

Hb 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Being combative yields little in the quest for truth.

Study G4704 spoudazo KJV: do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

Care to comment or skillfully obfuscate?
---Phil on 10/26/12


Phil, one bad about dispensationalist is, they asign grace to a perticular time. You said,

"God's dispensation of grace is new."

God's grace is not new at all. We find God graceful all through history. Grace and gospel are very much Old Testament concepts. Speaking of the Old Testament Israelites who were led from Egypt to Canaan by Moses (Heb. 4:1,2)
"Therefore, since the promise of entering His (Christ) rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, "just as they did," But the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith"
---Mark_V. on 10/26/12


"Brother Mark_v, this is not clear to all." The Seg

And how right you are! Not only are they not clear, they're in unbelief of God's written Word.
---christan on 10/25/12


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1Co_8:6 -of whom are all things, and we in him, -by whom are all things, and we by him!

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Brother Mark_v, this is not clear to all.
---TheSeg on 10/25/12


Phil, "it's a skill to be approved by God?" Where does it say so in the Scriptures that it is human skill that gets the approval of God? Doesn't it then make it a condition that God requires? Poor thief on the cross, for he acquired the only skill of stealing and was hung to die.

Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Where's the Holy Spirit in your life?
---christan on 10/25/12


---Mark_V. on 10/25/12 "Phil, I went through every passage you gave".

Thank you for doing that labor. You are one of the few that has the propriety of being faithful enough to investigate.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things be reminding them, conjuring them in the Lord's sight not to engage in controversy for nothing useful, onto the upsetting of those who are hearing.
2Ti 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth.

The Scriptures can be divided. This is obvious, isn't it?

This is what I do, Mark. It is a skill, it is required to be approved by God. It is needed to keep from being ashamed for being found in error.
---Phil on 10/25/12


---Mark_V. on 10/25/12

Dispensations are biblical.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation G3622 oikonomia of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward

KJV: dispensation, administration of a household or estate.

God's dispensation of grace is new. It is not based upon Israel's dispensation of the Covenants and promises.

It is rooted in them, but is based upon Israel's defection in Acts 28. Like all covenants with God, it is based upon faith.

Right division requires this acknowledgment. This is what I do, seeking God's approval.

The body of Christ inherits the celestial realm, Israel inherits the earth.
---Phil on 10/25/12


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---christan on 10/25/12 "Phil, let's look at some of the verses you gave as support to your "mongrealic kingdom" where the Jews will rule over the Gentiles in the "Millennial Reign".

You are astute in assigning quotation marks on Millennial Reign". It is not in the scriptures per se, but that He reigns for a thousand years is indisputable. It is not unbiblical.

Gn 22:18 Gn 25:23 Gn 26:4 Ex 34:10 Lv 26:45 Dt 9:5 Dt 15:6 Dt 26:18,19 Dt 28:1 Dt 32:8 Dt 32:43 2Sa 7:23 2Sa 22:44 1Ch 17:21 Ps 10:16 Ps 18:43 Ps 22:28 Ps 72:11 Ps 111:6 Isa 54:3 Isa 59:20 Isa 60:12 Isa 60:16 Isa 61:6 Isa 61:9 Ezk 37:21 Ezk 47:14 + many more.
Mt 19:28 Lk 22:30 Re 21:14 Re 21:24

The latter NT verses are pertinent.
---Phil on 10/25/12


Phil, let's look at some of the verses you gave as support to your "mongrealic kingdom" where the Jews will rule over the Gentiles in the "Millennial Reign".

Genesis 12:7, "And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him." Wasn't this about the promise land of Canaan?

Daniel 7:13,14, "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Isn't this about the spiritual kingdom of God?
---christan on 10/25/12


Phil, I went through every passage you gave and none say that Israel will rule over anyone in the age to come. Not a one. A few speak about the saints, but Gentiles are also saints if they have faith in Jesus Christ. The reason I did a little digging outside of Scripture was to find out why you come out with what you say. The Plymouth brethren are some that believe as you do. Two gospels, one for Israel and one for the Gentiles. And what you have been saying for a while now is that Israel is going to rule Gentiles. They also do not believe in hell and some other believes that are not under the Christain faith. It's ok if you believe that, that is your right. Just not biblical.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/12


//Did Christ die "for" us, or "instead" of us//
Depends if you follow what Peter says speaking to trhe nation of Israel, Acts 2:36 that they had killed their Messiah.
Or if you follow Paul as he speaks to the boC,Rom.5, that Christ died for us.
Two different messages to two different peoples.
---michael_e on 10/25/12


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---Mark_V. on 10/24/12
"I did a little digging around and it turns out you are a Darby follower..."

There is a Version with his name on it, that's all I know of him.

"Now where do you get the idea that the Jews are going to rule over others in the new age and what land are they going to inhibit?"

Gen. 12:7 2 Sam.7:1-16 Dan.7:13,14 Dan.7:27 Zechariah 8:1-8 Zech.8:20-23 Zech.14:1-4,10,11 Ezek.36:16-38 Ezek.37:21-28 Ezek.45:7-17 48:21,22 Ezek.48:1-7 Isa.2:2,3 Isaiah 35 Isa.41:18-20 Isa.49:22,23 Isa.65:21-24 Jer.31:31-34 Amos 9:11-15
There are dozens more.

Your digging around should have led you to the Scriptures, not Darby.
---Phil on 10/25/12


Christan, you are so right, "Dead" not cancer. With cancer they would still have a hope. But the lost have no hope.

"I read an anology about salvation that it was like,
A man drowning and Jesus throws a rope and all the person drowning has to do is grap the robe and he will be saved."


Pretty rediculous since the lost person is not drowning, He is dead already. He needs life to make him alive again in order for him to respond. And only God can bring life to someone dead.
When Jesus brought Lazurus back to life. He was dead. He could not respond while dead. He could not say, "I do not want to be alive, I want to stay dead" he had no way of responding, he was dead.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/12


Phil, I was trying to understand why you say what you do as:

"2C 5:16 ..though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
The body of Christ is in spirit, in heaven
The Bride of the Lambkin, Israel's elect, is on earth.
They will all inhabit the Land, and be kings and priests."


I did a little digging around and it turns out you are a Darby follower, or what is called a "brethren" who believe in two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. It was blowing me away, why you answered as you did. Now where do you get the idea that the Jews are going to rule over others in the new age and what land are they going to inhibit?
---Mark_V. on 10/24/12


david, some would say to jesus based on this website of jesus' analogy of the Word to seed..."a seed...a seed? the word of God is much more than a seed...that is ridiculous..."
---aka on 10/24/12


Hmmm....I believe you may be right.
---David on 10/24/12


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Only Israel? Now reason with what Christ declared.
---christan on 10/23/12
Of old Jehovah led forth His people like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock (Psa.78:52). He was their Shepherd (Psa.23:1, 80:1). They were the sheep of His pasture (Psa.79:13) and the sheep of His hand (Psa.95:7, 100:3). But like sheep they had gone astray, they had turned every one to his own way (Isa.53, Jer.50:6, Ezek.34:1-31). And the kingdom is for the sheep only: "Fear not, little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32).

There will be Gentiles in the Kingdom on earth during the Millennial Reign. They will be under the rule of Israel in Jerusalem.
---Phil on 10/24/12


david, some would say to jesus based on this website of jesus' analogy of the Word to seed..."a seed...a seed? the word of God is much more than a seed...that is ridiculous..."

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees... leaven of the Pharisees?...it is ridiculous to many.
---aka on 10/24/12


"Here's an analogy which should explain this: Everyone in the world is born with cancer..." David

Cancer? Is that what the Paul says? Here's some help from 2 Corinthians 1:9, "But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead"

It's even worse than cancer, David. Mankind had the "SENTENCE OF DEATH IN OURSELVES" the day they were born. That's why Paul reminded the Christian that they were born "DEAD IN SINS AND TRESPASSES".

The word is "DEAD" and not cancer.
---christan on 10/24/12


---Mark_V. on 10/23/12 "

Mt 1:1 Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham.
The commission of the Twelve came from Christ according to flesh.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers.

Paul received his commission from the glorified and exalted Christ Jesus. The Twelve never knew Him other than according to flesh.

2C 5:16 ..though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

The body of Christ is in spirit, in heaven

The Bride of the Lambkin, Israel's elect, is on earth.

They will all inhabit the Land, and be kings and priests.
---Phil on 10/24/12


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HELLO
HE DID BOTH.
HE DIED INSTEAD AND WE WILL NOT DIE BUT LIVE FOR EVER.
HE DIED FOR US TO GIVE US FORGIVNESS FOR ALL OUR SINS
JAN
---Jan_Stefansson on 10/23/12


"The Scriptures confine His people to a race, Israel. Theology does not confine itself to scripture. It reasons from it." Phil

All the verses you gave were instructions to His disciples but did it stop at the "house of Israel" only? Read the other Gospels and epistles, you will come across this:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
John 10:14-16

Only Israel? Now reason with what Christ declared.
---christan on 10/23/12


"The Scriptures confine His people to a race, Israel." Phil

Seriously? Try explaining this:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:7,8

And if it is according to your erroneous understanding that "Scriptures confine His people to a race, Israel", then why are we Gentiles even reading the Bible and believing in a doctrine like yours that does not offer hope, except only to Israel?

There further you go on, the more ridiculous and absurd you make yourself out to be.
---christan on 10/23/12


Here's an analogy which should explain this:
Everyone in the world is born with cancer (into Sin), and we will die from that cancer, unless that cancer is removed.

Jesus died so the cancer(Sin) could be taken away (1John 3:5).
The animal sacrifice could provide attonement and forgiveness of sin (Leviticus 4:32-35) but it could not take away sin(Hebrews 10:4).
---David on 10/23/12


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Phil, in the context, when Jesus was doing His ministry, He did confine the disciples to the lost sheep of Israel, and avoid the Gentiles. But later Jesus Himself asigned Paul to witness to the Gentiles. In the historical context, the Jews came first, and the Gentiles came second, even though some Gentiles were saved in the Old Testament. You seem to always imply, that somehow only Israel will be saved, and that she will rule over the Gentiles in the age to come, and none of that is in Scripture. There is only One Body in Christ, not two or three. You can take passages out of context, but that does not make you theology true at all.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/12


Jesus, God in the flesh, died FOR His people. His chosen people. The ones He had chosen before He created this world. It is called predestination [runs all through the Bible]. Jesus died for many reasons. But, one reason would be, so that His elects [His chosen people] would not go to hell.
---pat on 10/22/12


---christan on 10/22/12 "Matthew 1:21 explicitly declares, "for He shall save His people from their sins".

Continuing on in Matthews account:
Mt 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda.. out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Mt 10:5 Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Scriptures confine His people to a race, Israel. Theology does not confine itself to scripture. It reasons from it.
---Phil on 10/22/12


Scripture in Matthew 1:21 explicitly declares, "for He shall save His people from their sins". Which simply means, Christ didn't die for everybody but only His people.

Question than becomes, is everyone His people? According to Christ, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 - that is, there's a specific number only known to the Father whom He has given to His Son "that will be saved from their sins."

If everyone is His people than no one should be going to hell. Truth be told, multitudes are already in Hades this moment, so it's clear that Christ didn't die for "everyone".
---christan on 10/22/12


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Both
John 10:10 to give life to the fullest.
For - Jesus died for our benefit and His glory for relationship with us. God is passionate toward us
Instead - Jesus is the sacrificial lamb that died instead of us.
God is great because he can minister and speak in different ways to different people.
---Scott1 on 10/22/12


---willie_c: on 10/21/12
"I understand that "believe" here means trusting and obeying how our Father takes care of us."

There is only one group of men mentioned. Do you see? It says "all men". Every human, anthropos.

There is One Savior Who saves all men.

The question is, what will prevent your mind from receiving truth?

Those, who by grace and faith believe through the evangel of God, are a special and particular subset of the "all men".

It does not say "only believers". That is not believing God. Possibly you, like I, accepted false teachings, so the eyes were shut to the truth.

Now is your chance at liberty.
---Phil on 10/22/12


Phil,

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (RSV)

Galatians 3:10, 13 - "All who rely on works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.' ... Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree'" (RSV)

1 Peter 2:24 - "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness."(RSV)


Jesus died as a substitute for us.
---Mark_V. on 10/22/12


YAHUSHUA died "for" those who are unsaved. And, both "for" and "instead" for those who ARE Saved.
---Gordon on 10/21/12


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"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, Jesus is the propitiation "for the whole world" and God "is the Savior of all men". But it also says, "especially of those who believe." I understand that "believe" here means trusting and obeying how our Father takes care of us.

Jesus does call to "all" (Matthew 11:28-30), but many do not obey how He would give "rest for your souls."
---willie_c: on 10/21/12


1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,


So here we have (FOR OUR SIN) He didn't die INSTEAD of our sin.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/12


\\Did Christ die "for" us, or "instead" of us?\\
---Phil on 10/20/12

This is not a silly question at all.

"for" has many meanings, including:
instead of
to gain
because

if you go to a restaurant, you pay for (to gain) your food. You can even pay for (instead of) your friend. You can even leave a tip, for (because) that is proper


The most sickening offense of "Ambiguous Christianity" is stating that Jesus died for us, and leaves it to the hearer to interpret.

Scripture is not ambiguous on such precious matters.

Jesus died because of us, in spite of us, and instead of us
---James_L on 10/21/12


Did Christ die "for" us, or "instead" of us?
Funny how I feel, it was "in-spite" of us!
And so will you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/21/12


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"God demonstrated his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him. You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish." Rom 5:8>1Th 5:10>1Jo 4:9>Jhn 11:50 NIV
---Josef on 10/21/12


francis, you state that Jesus died for all, implying every single person. That is not a fact. "all" here means all His children.
"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name "Jesus" for He will save "His people" from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).
Christ came to carry into effect God's sovereign purpose of election, to save people already "His" by covenant settlement. The people whom God hath "from the beginning chosen unto salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13).
(Luke 19:10) doesn't say Christ came to seek and to save "all" the lost. Because two thirds of human history had died and were already in Hell when He entered Bethlem's manger.
---Mark_V. on 10/21/12


Let's not forget that those who are saved..."WE DIED WITH CHRIST" that sin has no more power over us.

I do believe many completely miss the truth of the WHOLE GOSPEL of GRACE.

He dies so that WE can die with Him and be raised up with Him a New Creature.

Romans 6
---kathr4453 on 10/21/12


This should end ALL discusion as to WHO Christ died for

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all,
---francis on 10/20/12


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Jesus died for us, His chosen people, inspite of our sins. And, you never know who He might choose. Maybe, even you.
---pat on 10/20/12


//What a silly question. Why did you ever ask it?//

Probably because most on this site believe Peter and Paul preached the same message.
Acts 2:36 ... whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Rom 5:8.While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
two completely different messages to two different peoples.
---michael_e on 10/20/12


Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Death is conquered when the Lord returns. Lord Jesus died for our sins. The Lord did not die for us, or instead of us. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God on earth, to inherit earth one must die just like the Lord and be resurrected to life immortal, eternal, spiritual. We are not spiritual beings we are flesh and blood beings, which will die.
---Follower_of_Christ on 10/20/12


Thanks Phil, for a question that causes us to think deeply. Jesus took all sin for all time upon himself willingly, and being perfect was the acceptable sacrifice, he "paid it all" for us AND instead of us so that we can choose to be with him in Heaven.
---Geraldine on 10/20/12


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Did Christ die "for" us, or "instead" of us?
---Phil on 10/20/12

He dies instead of US
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death,

The death that Jesus died is not the common death, itis not the death which is the result of sin, it is the death of the penalty for sin
---francis on 10/20/12


Hi, Phil . . . "Christ died for our sins," Pauls says in 1 Corinthians 15:3.

"For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Romans 5:6) Christ died for us the "ungodly".

And this was instead of us dying for our own sins.

And He is our love example, of how we also need to love > "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

He gave Himself "for us", meaning we could not be "a sweet-smelling aroma" to make up for our own sins. So, Jesus was qualified to do this, instead of us and how we would die for our own sins (c:
---willie_c: on 10/20/12


What a silly question. Why did you ever ask it?

"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8.

As long as Jesus tarries, death is an ever-present reality for all of us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/12


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