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Two Or Three In My Name

Please explain: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20].

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\\natural/national Israel...
spiritual/universal Israel\\
---James_L on 11/19/12


\\Where are these words used?\\
---Phil on 11/20/12


Yet we can ask the same thing of words you use:


\\It is God's ultimate activity in us.\\
---Phil on 11/20/12


So tell everybody where those words are used.

You use phrases and words all the time which aren't found in scripture, and then have the nerve to call someone else's unsound?

On what basis? Simpy that you said so?

If you have an argument against what I wrote, let's hear it. Otherwise, your diatribe is mere drivel.
---James_L on 11/22/12


---James_L on 11/21/12

I prefer to believe that you do not apprehend what I am saying, and as a result that produced a negative response.

If resorting to sarcasm is how you show reverence in the things of God, there may be hard times ahead for you.

It would be better to consider what we are, and the condition of our hearts before God, rather than utter things uselessly.

If you do understand what I am saying about unsound words, that is something else altogether.
---Phil on 11/21/12


How do you reconcile in your head both concepts? ... why answer? ...Believe what?
---Mark_V. on 11/21/12

You are not easily dissuaded from retaining what you know to be truth. This is good and to be respected by all.

I am not looking for support for my beliefs. My beliefs have been wrong in the past, and no doubt I will be proven wrong on any given issue in the future.

I am forced by you often to study the word, and opposition is welcome because of having to do that. I only gain by it.

I hope that you operate the same way whenever you find yourself in contest with me. Our goal is the same, to become like Him starting today, and faithful people will apply themselves in like manner.

---Phil on 11/22/12


---Mark_V. on 11/21/12 "How do you reconcile in your head both concepts? ... why answer? ...Believe what?"

Predesignation is scriptural. I believe it because it says so. Ro 8:29 Ro 9:11

I believe in the reconiliation of the universe because it says so. Christ Jesus will reconcile all things in heaven and earth, He is the Redeemer and Saviour of all men.

You have read Col 1:20, 1Ti 2:4, and 1Ti 4:10.

I read these, and I believe God. I refuse to reason away what God has spoken, merely because I do not understand. I pursue Him for understanding.

I try not to allow myself to think I am only right above everyone else.

I answer because I am not the only seeker of truth.
---Phil on 11/22/12


//How can one teach truth, if it is not with true and sound scriptural words that God has used?//---Phil on 11/20/12


The last time I looked, there wasn't even one English word used in scripture. Nope, not even one

You want to press for the use of biblical words only? Stop using English
---James_L on 11/21/12




I understand the teachings of francis, SDA's teachings of the law, to support Saturday Sabbath.
---Mark_V. on 11/21/12
Do you believe that it was on a different day when God first blessed the 7th day?

Do you believe that the sabbath was on a different day when Jesus kept it?

What day of the week do you believe is the seventh day and as a result what days of the week do you think is referred to here: Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,

Do you believe that sunday is the first day of the week, the same day on which Jesus was raised from the dead?
---francis on 11/21/12


Phil, I understand the teachings of francis, SDA's teachings of the law, to support Saturday Sabbath. But I have been trying to understand your beliefs. When you begin here, you spoke for predestination, that God choose some to salvation before the foundation of the world. Now you produce passages to suggest Universal salvation. How do you reconcile in your head both concepts? You also said,
"---Mark_V. What I say matters little. I have no desire to convince anyone of my personal beliefs." I thought when you answered you were trying to convince us of your personal beliefs or else why answer?
You also said, "However, when the evidence of Holy Scripture is presented to me, I believe it." Believe what?
---Mark_V. on 11/21/12


Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them,

Joshua 9:16 And it came to pass at the end of three days after they had made a league with them, that they heard that they [were] their neighbours, and [that] they dwelt among them

Then they made an agreement with None jews, who ended up running the day to day activities of the temple

And God says:

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: ...Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar,
---francis on 11/20/12


WITH does not mean PART OF. Gentiles were WITH Israel. Sheep were WITH Israel. Camels were WITH Israel.
---James_L on 11/19/12

LOL No not cattle, egyptians.
There were a mixed multitude fo Israelites and Egyptians

There are also other bible references to mixed multitude and it refers to other nationalities
---francis on 11/20/12


The Word of God is perfect, Paul did not have the complete Word of God... the BoC. which is also perfect.
---michael_e on 11/20/12

Paul completed the Word of God, to us [Col 1:25]. Up to that time, Paul had at his disposal all written scrolls and revelations to his kinsmen, the Jews.

I do not resist the possibility Paul "completed" the word.

I do feel it is not the object in Corinthians. The unfolding of the new creation in Christ, the perfect in my judgment, came later, and Paul's language seems couched towards that end.

The completion of Scripture by one person pales to a new humanity that is being formed in Christ's image.

It is God's ultimate activity in us.
---Phil on 11/20/12




//That verse mentions knowledge. If tongues have ceased, why hasn't knowledge?//
My thought, Paul in 1Cor is speaking to babes in Christ.
do a word study on knowledge.
Later he goes deeper
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
//Also, just what is that which is perfect?//
The Word of God is perfect, Paul did not have the complete Word of God. Christ was also progressivley revealing to Paul the institution of the BoC. which is also perfect.
---michael_e on 11/20/12


francis,
are you saying that cattle were Israelites too?

In your zeal, you forgot to excercise good reading skills.

WITH does not mean PART OF. Gentiles were WITH Israel. Sheep were WITH Israel. Camels were WITH Israel.

God was also WITH Israel.

See the difference? Probably not. Whatever.
---James_L on 11/19/12


There is/was a natural/national Israel

There is/was a spiritual/universal Israel

---James_L on 11/19/12

The usage of terms and words not found in the Scriptures cannot be defended or proven. Spiritual Israel, Universal Israel, national Israel, natural Israel.

Where are these words used?

How can one teach truth, if it is not with true and sound scriptural words that God has used?

This practice of using false terms and phrases is not good. It can only bring about confusion, never light.
---Phil on 11/20/12


---Mark_V. on 11/19/12

What I say matters little. I have no desire to convince anyone of my personal beliefs.

However, when the evidence of Holy Scripture is presented to me, I believe it, whether I agree or not.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1Ti 4:10 because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What will happen to Christ- rejectors? I am clear in my understanding, how about you?
---Phil on 11/20/12


There is/was a natural/national Israel that Gentiles were never part of - ONE BODY
---James_L on 11/19/12

REALLY WHEN?
When they came out of Egypt?
Exodus 12:38 a mixed multitude went up also with them, and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
NOPE they were MIXED

How about when the entered the promise land?
Joshua 9:15 And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation sware unto them.
1 Chronicles 9:2 Now the first inhabitants that dwelt in their possessions in their cities were, the Israelites, the priests, Levites, and the Nethinims.

NOPE there were the Nethinims.

AT no time was Israel a pure Hebrew nation
---francis on 11/19/12


michael_e:

You quoted: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That verse mentions knowledge. If tongues have ceased, why hasn't knowledge?

Also, just what is that which is perfect? Not Jesus or the Holy Spirit, since they had already come.The church? If you look at the history of the church (or ANY church) during the past 2000 years, it is quite evident that all of them are FAR from perfect.

As the old saying goes: If you are looking for a perfect church, and you happen to find one, don't join it - because once you do, it will no longer be perfect! (because none of us is perfect).

So, just what was Paul referring to?
---StrongAxe on 11/19/12


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Phil, I am patient. I am waiting for you to tell me what happens to all those Judian's who died in their sin rejecting the Lord? Are you implying that God will save them also? If not them, then which ones? The one's alive to day? If not them which ones, those who will be born later? Will they have to go through Christ? Or do they get special enternace to heaven? You have discerned the truth you say, give us the scoop. Waiting.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/12


michael e,

you err in part of your distinctions.

There is/was a natural/national Israel that Gentiles were never part of - ONE BODY

There is/was a spiritual/universal Israel which is comprised of believers from Israel and the nations - ONE BODY

Neither has to do with who goes to heaven and who doesn't, they both have to do with who inherits.

National Israel inherited a parcel of land. Not every natural descendant of Abraham had a natural inheritance

Spiritual Israel will inherit an eternal Kingdom. Not every spiritual descendant of Abraham will have an eternal inheritance
---James_L on 11/19/12


Mark_V,

All I can ask is for your patience. Much that we have acquired of God's truth will have been tainted by those whom we received it from.

It is only by going directly to the Word itself and studying it humbly with God that such colorings as we may have can be known and purged by Holy Spirit.

That God has a different agenda for Israel's elect than what we have been given is pivotal to understanding the Scriptures.

Coming to that place has been arduous and laborious. It is not easy to give up pet beliefs over the word of God.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is not an option. Without the ability to discern what is Israel's and what is our's is the root of disunity.
---Phil on 11/19/12


James_L
Glad to hear you are a follower of Rick's ministry. You could and sounds like you have done worse.

Have you "heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me(Paul) to you-ward:
Have you heard of the gospel of the grace of God, Paul calls my gospel(ref 1Cor.15:1-4)

"That the Gentiles should be FELOWHEIRS," (With Christ not the nation of Israel)

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ,...
---michael_e on 11/19/12


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michael e,
you would do well to read the scriptures instead of cherry-picking from Rchard Jordan's page.

But even still, if you had kept reading, he quotes the scriptures that prove my point to you earlier. You don't even know what the mystery is.

He quotes Ephesians 3:1-6 where Paul said exactly what the mystery is

How that BY REVELATION HE MADE KNOWN UNTO ME THE MYSTERY....That the Gentiles should be FELOWHEIRS, and of the SAME BODY, and partakers of his holy promise in Christ by the gospel
---James_L on 11/19/12


Phil, I try to follow what you say, and you give passages that have nothing whatsoever to do with what you say. Then when an answer is given to you, you right away say, that is not what it means, it has a different meaning. Here you said,
"Paul goes on to reaffirm Israel's place, in the flesh, as God's elect on earth [Ro 3:2]"
That passage speaks nothing of the elect or that the elect are of the flesh. Paul is not reaffirming Israels place. What Paul is saying is that the Jews who were circumcised had an advantage over the other nations, they received the oracles of God, the gospel, and just because they do not belief, it changes nothing in God's faithfulness, that is His nature.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/12


Ro 15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God

Paul was a priest.

Eph 3:3 that by revelation He made known to me the secret, according as I wrote before in few words

Paul was a prophet

in regard to which ye are able, reading it, to understand my knowledge in the secret of the Christ

His letters are prophetic, and the other apostles under his ministry carried these revelations forward as well.

The Twelve never left the Land with the Gospel. That was not their instructions. See Ac 1:3 and Ac 11:19.

Rom 16:26 is about Paul's ministry, not the Lord's disciples.
---Phil on 11/18/12


Rom 16:25,26 My Gospel: is the foundation of God's purpose. Knowing details of the gospel of grace committed to Paul gives an orientation to Gods grace.
Preaching of Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, is the fullness of God's purpose. Understanding God's previously unrevealed plan to form the BoC, gives us an orientation to God's goal which grounds us in the ultimate plan of God.

Scriptures of the prophets: is the future of God's purpose. the first two comprise the special message committed to Paul, the "scriptures of the prophets" encompass all of Scripture, in light of course, of Paul's revelation. Understanding how prophecy and mystery relate to one great overriding purpose provides insight to God's glory .
---michael_e on 11/18/12


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\\...never met a tongue-talker that understood the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25).\\
---michael_e on 11/14/12

Yet YOU don't understand it
Paul said it has been made known by the scriptures of the prophets (Rom 16:26) yet you say that only Paul knew, and only straight from Jesus. And you even have the wrong idea of what the mystery is. Hmmmmm.


//"I am making the distinction between the nation of Israel(12 tribes) and the body of Christ."???//
...think they are one and the same...?\\
---michael_e on 11/16/12

Did I mention the Body of Christ? YOU mentioned Israel under the Law, and Jews under grace. Please clarify
---James_L on 11/18/12


StrongAxe
You say, why would Paul write at length about speaking in tongues if it was not relevant for the Church?
The sign gifts WERE relevant.

1Cor 13:8whether there be tongues, they shall cease,
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

We now have that which is perfect, the complete Word of God. We have no need for sign gifts.
---michael_e on 11/17/12


Please explain: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20].
---pat on 11/6/12
This is very very simple

it takes a minimum of TWO people to be the church.

One person can be a church member, but minimum of two to be the church
---francis on 11/17/12


michael_e:

Other early Christians did (otherwise, why would Paul feel the need to write about it in his letters to the churches?). But there is no mention of these things in the Old Testament. Ergo, these things DID apply to the Body of Christ, but they did NOT apply to the 12 tribes of Israel as such.

Also, why would Paul write at length about speaking in tongues if it was not relevant for the Church?
---StrongAxe on 11/17/12


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Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly,---J_marc on 11/16/12

A common misapplication of the Word.

"neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh"

Tell that to an adult who receive this "blessing".

The application is not to define what is a Jew, but an attitude of the heart.

The desire to make the body of Christ God's chosen people has led to this falshood, that Christians are now the Jews of God.

Paul goes on to reaffirm Israel's place, in the flesh, as God's elect on earth [Ro 3:2]

He will not break His promise to Israel, no matter their unbelief, or ours.
---Phil on 11/17/12


//"I am making the distinction between the nation of Israel(12 tribes) and the body of Christ."???//

You don't actually think they are one and the same do you?
---michael_e on 11/16/12


"I am making the distinction between the nation of Israel(12 tribes) and the body of Christ."???Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.Galations 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
---J_marc on 11/16/12


//Are you making a distinction between Israel and Judah?
---James_L on 11/14/12//
I am making the distinction between the nation of Israel(12 tribes) and the body of Christ.
---michael_e on 11/16/12


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\\One spoke to Israel under Law, the other speaks to the boC (Jew & Gentile) under grace\\
---michael_e on 11/8/12

Are you making a distinction between Israel and Judah?
---James_L on 11/14/12


//This may seem true, but to what extent does faith play a part?//
Apparently, the only way some know how to access the wisdom of God in a mystery is to try and speak directly to God in a divine language. The divine tongue talking sounds more like Navi to the rest of us.

Eph 3:4 says we are able to understand the mystery of Christ by reading what Paul wrote from the Lord.

This must be why I have never met a tongue-talker that understood the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25).
---michael_e on 11/14/12


---Steveng on 11/13/12 "..they will be locked up for a thousand years"

Re 20:2 ...and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

As you can see, the reconciliation of the universe [ Col 1:20] is started with the god of this world out of the way.

Only one is cast into the submerged chaos. Many remain.

There are others spiritual forces, according to Ephesians 6, who will yet be free to exercise their malignancies.
---Phil on 11/13/12


Every body doing makes it more ludicrous
---michael_e on 11/13/12

This may seem true, but to what extent does faith play a part?

If done in faith, is not this manifestation from God, according to faith? There are very sincere and godly people who believe they have this "gift. What about them?
---Phil on 11/13/12


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Phil : "These are powers of the age to come [Hb 6:4-5] They were and will be signs of His disciples, under His authority as King."

The new world, the coming Kingdom of God which is to be reigned by Christ, will not need the casting out of demons for they will be locked up for a thousand years. After all is fulfilled, evil will be destroyed.
---Steveng on 11/13/12


//There sure is a lot of that, so it must be true with all the "proof"//.

Every body doing makes it more ludicrous
---michael_e on 11/13/12


Mark V, PEACE! Thanks again! John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Carefull with kathr Bro, she wants to provoke you & others! Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
---JMarc on 11/13/12


---michael_e on 11/12/12

Are not the thousands upon thousands of "tongues" speakers, manifold witnesses to its existence, and the scriptural evidences, enough to prove it is real?

Can this not exist apart from raising the dead, healing the sick, or demon casting?

Is it an all-in-one package, or nothing at all? Why?

It's hard to fake dead-raising, and exorcism is uncommon, but tongues? There sure is a lot of that, so it must be true with all the "proof".
---Phil on 11/13/12


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"Do you tongue talk, have you ever healed anyone. raised the dead, cast out demons?Christ and the 12 apostles to Israel did. Who else?" BELIEVERS! "Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE, In my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
---J_Marc on 11/13/12


//I asked how you got the idea that these things apply to the nation of Israel, which is what you had said in your previous message.//
Again i can read
//tongues, poverty, healing, raising the dead, baptism, casting out demons)//
Do you tongue talk, have you ever healed anyone. raised the dead, cast out demons?
Christ and the 12 apostles to Israel did. Who else?
---michael_e on 11/12/12


michael_e:

I did not ask how you got the idea that these things apply to the Body of Christ (because they do). I asked how you got the idea that these things apply to the nation of Israel, which is what you had said in your previous message.
---StrongAxe on 11/12/12


J Marc, your inside to the truth is very well said. I agree with what what you said and have no clue what steven and phil are talking about. I tried to keep up with what they said, and I notice no one mentioned there is only one way into heaven and that is through Christ. That is why I cannot follow or make sense of what they say concerning Israel. There is no physical Israel going to heaven, and no Jew who has died or is alive without Christ is going to heaven. I believe most here forget you need to be born again of the Spirit, because their is still, at this time right now only one way into heaven, and that is through Christ Jesus. No other special people are going into heaven through some other way. There is only one Way, Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/12


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then christians are to perform greater miracles than Jesus as written.
---Steveng on 11/11/12

Mk 16:17 casting out demons.. speaking in new languages.. picking up serpents..drinking anything deadly..placing hands on those who are ailing."

The Kingdom is not near at hand, as preached by Jesus and John. It has been postponed til He returns to Israel and the Bride.

These are powers of the age to come [Hb 6:4-5] They were and will be signs of His disciples, under His authority as King.

They belong to the terrestrial Kindgom, not our home in heaven.
---Phil on 11/11/12


---Steveng on 11/11/12

All the promises to Israel find their fulfillment at His return. They are all terrestrial, earthly, and part of the whole Kingdom of God, which encompasses the entire universe. They are spiritual by reason of the Administrator.

Jesus obtains the land covenanted to the seed of Abraham

Jesus obtains the throne in Jerusalem as covenanted to David's descendent.

Jesus obtains the earth and dominion over it as covenanted to Adam.

The body of Christ is not appointed to wrath. You may choose to disagree with Scripture, it will avail nothing. Ro 5:9 1Th 1:10 1Th 5:9
---Phil on 11/11/12


michael_e: as for your post on 11/8/12: Items 2, 3, 4 (of the heart), 5, 6, 7, 11, 12 (the true and only gospel), 14, 15, 16, these truly are christian. The reason why today's christians cannot heal the sick etc. is because true and genuine love has almost completely evaporated fromt he face of the world. The great delusion today is when christians who think they are christians but are not. And where there is no love, there is no Holy Spirit. It looks as though you may have only the knowledge of God, but deny his power.

If you don't believe what the Spirit has revealed then you surely will not recognize the last two prophets God has sent as spoken of by John in Revelation.
---Steveng on 11/11/12


michael_e: concerning your second post on 11/8/12:

Item 1: spiritual blessing are for the old testament people of God also - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets and other godly people.

Item 4: Christians will surely live through the wrath to come, it will separate the genuine christians from the christians who think they are christians, but are not. br>
Item 6: There is only one gospel that is preached by Christ and the apostles, it is the coming Kingdom of God. Christ did not preach about himself.

Item 7: if what you say is true then christians are to perform greater miracles than Jesus as written.
---Steveng on 11/11/12


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I would say in His name means in His love and obeying God so we are guaranteed to succeed in doing all He pleases, and our prayer is what He has us asking so He does all He means by what He has us ask.

And being in Jesus' name includes how a Christian is "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17), loved by our Father the way our Father loves Jesus (John 17:20-26). So, in His name does not just mean however we have been in water and tithing (c:

And Jesus says, "I am with you always," in Matthew 28:20. While we obey Jesus, we are with Him and "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9) So, we are in His all-sufficient grace (c:
---willie_c: on 11/10/12


christan. Yes, I mean SPIRITUAL Jew.
The physical Jews are Gentiles.

Galatians 2:15
"We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles"
---Haz27 on 11/9/12


"Christians are: The true Jews, who have circumcision of the heart," Haz

I hope you mean, "a spiritual Jew" and not one born by blood of a Jew. For Romans 2:28,29 says, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Paul's describing "spiritual regeneration" that constitutes to one being a "spiritual Jew". A Gentile born of the Spirit becomes a "spiritual Jew". The physical nation of Israel was a shadow of the body of Christ, His church.
---christan on 11/9/12


Michael e. I like that list you gave about the body of Christ, 11/8/12.

Just thought I'd offer some additional points to that list you gave.

Christians are:
The true Jews, who have circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28,29.
Holy, in Christ, Rom 11:16
Sanctified, Perfected, Heb 10:10,14.
Cannot sin, 1John 3:9.
Righteous.
A holy priesthood, 1Pet 2:5
---Haz27 on 11/9/12


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---michael_e on 11/8/12

I looked through all the Hebrew epistles and letters, but none of them, other than Paul the Apostle to the nations, said we have those things you mentioned.

Peter, James, John and Jude don't mention them. It does appear that they only apply to the body of Christ, which is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one body in spirit.

Your assertion is warranted and scriptural.
---Phil on 11/9/12


//Where did you get the idea that all of thse things belong to the nation of Israel?//
I can read.
the body of Christ

has all spiritual blessings
has a heavenly hope
has eternal life by grace through faith
will not go through the wrath to come
will get a personal escort off this planet by the Son Of God himself
does preach the gospel of the Grace of God
has personal, instant, access to God apart from a priest
is complete in Christ
is secure in Christ
is baptized in Christ
is circumcised in Christ
is dead with Christ
is risen with Christ
is alive in Christ
will rule in the heavens with Christ
has victory over sin right now
---michael_e on 11/8/12


//micheal e, i forgive you! Luke 6:37 condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven//
Is forgiveness conditional or not? Mat 6:14-15 & Eph 4:32
These passages do not say the same thing. One spoke to Israel under Law, the other speaks to the boC (Jew & Gentile) under grace
---michael_e on 11/8/12


micheal e, i forgive you! Luke 6:37 condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Galations 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISREAL OF GOD Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---J_Marc on 11/8/12


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michael_e:

Where did you get the idea that all of thse things belong to the nation of Israel?

A few things (keeping the law of Moses, circumsision, collecting tithes, looking for signs, getting blessings for doing good, looking for a New Jerusalem, etc.) were mentioned in the Old Testament as applying to Israel.

Many others (tongues, poverty, healing, raising the dead, baptism, casting out demons) were not, and were either that applied only to believers (Jewish and Gentile alike) in the New Testament - and in some cases, things Jesus specifically said his followers would do.
---StrongAxe on 11/8/12


In "time past" (OT. up to early Acts) Christ dealt with the Nation of Israel,with few exceptions.
Israel has been set aside and blinded and will remain in that condition until the catching away of the church the boC.

The boC doesn't

keep the law of Moses
talk in unknown tongues
sell all they have
circumcise
heal the sick
raise the dead
look for signs
get physical curses for doing evil
get physical blessings for doing good
collect the tithe
water baptize
look for new Jerusalem
work for salvation
endure to the end
go into the tribulation
cast out demons

All these things belong to the nation of Israel!
---michael_e on 11/8/12


The 4 Gospels are a record of the Lord's words to His people. The Gentiles are not in the subject matter.

The word "church" is English for ecclesia. It is misleading and incorrect. Innumerable confusions persist with this failure to render correctly.

The ecclesia of Jesus [Mt 16:18] is the bride of the Lambkin [Mt 9:15], now that Israel slew Him.

The ecclesia of God [1C 1:2] is spiritual. It is the body of Christ. They are different.

The ecclesia of the bride/wife is on earth, and Jewish.

The body of Christ is spiritual and situated in heaven with Him.

As long as the "Church" ignores correct division of the word of truth, is as long as error will hold men in darkness.
---Phil on 11/8/12


Michael e,You wrote,"It is the nation of Israel, which yoiu are not part of."??Praise God for the persecution!Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.Galations 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
---J_Marc on 11/8/12


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Michael e, in the context of the passage in (Matt. 18:20) J. Marc is correct. The topic is, Jesus Church. (v.15) begins with "If your brother sins against you, go tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established" The Jewish tradition requires at least 10 men ( aminyan) to constitute a synagogue or even hold public prayer. Here, in His church, Christ promised to be present in the midst of an even smaller flock, two or three witnesses gathered in His name for the purpose of discipline.
---Mark_V. on 11/8/12


In His name means being in what names Jesus to our Father. We are in His fragrance (2 Corinthians 2:14-16) which makes us pleasing to our Father like Jesus in us (Galatians 4:19, 2:20) is so pleasing to our Father. We are in "the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God" (in Ephesians 3:19). We gather in His name, in order to seek to be more pleasing to Him in Jesus Christ's own love in which we are sharing in our Father's own fullness together.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:14-15).
---willie_c: on 11/7/12


//Is that the Israel of God? //
It is the nation of Israel, which yoiu are not part of.

Matt.10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing... The word is anything, why box it in, instead of an apple, ask for the tree. try it see if it works for you.
---michael_e on 11/7/12


michael_e on 11/7/12 you wrote "John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.Another passage addressed to [Israel.?? Is that the Israel of God?] Did you ever try to get this one to work for you?" YES!!! My wife & i gathered in HIS name & prayed to All mighty YA (God) through his only begotten son, Yashua (the real Jesus) the anionted messiah (Christ) that HE would give my sweet wife a job & He did ! She was unemployed for 19 months with only 2 & 1/2 months of unenployment ins.! Glory to HIS NAME !!!!!
---J_Marc on 11/7/12


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"Please explain: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20]."

Simple, God is not present in mega-churches or as Paul declared, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS, Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things." Acts 17:24,25
---christan on 11/7/12


It really means exactly what it says. It refers to the Lord YAHUSHUA being among those who gather together in Him, be it a large corporate Church Body or just 2 or 3 people. Of course, that doesn't mean that He does not fellowship with each one of His own One-on-one, for, that, He does! :-)
---Gordon on 11/7/12


//"For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20].//
This statement was made to Israel before the death of Christ. "But now" we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Another passage addressed to Israel. Did you ever try to get this one to work for you?
---michael_e on 11/7/12


It just boils down to true fellowship with one another. Do an online KJV bible search for "one another", "each other", "comfort", and "encourag" for true fellowship, something that worldly denominational churches miss entirely.
---Steveng on 11/6/12


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This text is not a general statement about the pressence of the Lord among His people but as an assurance of His providential guidance in matters of church dscipline. In other-words, The Scripture is referring to church dscipline [Mat. 18:16]. Because the Lord is present even with individual Christians....Give me an E for effort.
---pat on 11/6/12


Pat, Matthew 18:18-19 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.John 14:14-16 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever,. Sometimes the "2" is you & the Holy Spirit!
---J_Marc on 11/6/12


Study backward to v.15 and particularly 16. You'll contextually find the 2 or 3 people.
1: Person trespassed against.
2 or 3: Two brothers who served as witnesses of the qrievance procedure.

These 2 or 3 people hold a unique position to pray and LOOSE the trespassing brother who, since acting the heathen TOWARD THEM anyhow, they should let him keep acting a heathen. But don't be a heathen TOWARD HIM in return.
Take the 2 or 3 and loose the heathen through an act of LOVE. FORGIVE!
By following this grievance procedure, the disorderly brother isn't merely trespassing against the 1,2,3 or church. He's now trespassing against Jesus.
This is only true as long as the 2 or 3 LOOSE/let go of the trespass. God handles with it.
---Legends on 11/6/12


The Jewish quorum for a public service was, and still is 10.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/12


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"For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20]."
There is really no explanation necessary Pat. The verse means exactly what it says, no interpretation required. Take the verse at face value. "Gathered in My name" simply means assembled together as His followers in submission to, and in honor His authority as leader.
---josef on 11/6/12


During church disipline it
1) God does not need the issue to be anounced to the world aka gossip.
2) reconfirms the OT law of that 2 or 3 witnesses in bring a formal charge
3) it is not an excuse to have a small church and be satisfied with a small church when we are clearly defined to expand outward and evangelism to make disciples.
---Scott1 on 11/6/12


Pat, "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" [Matthew 18:20]. Look before that! Matthew 18:18-19 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.John 14:14-16 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever,. Sometimes the "2" is you & the Holy
---J_Marc on 11/6/12


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