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Did God Create Hell

Did God create hell? And if He did, why?

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 ---pat on 11/14/12
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Cluny- thanks for reminding us how the man-made hell-fire doctrine is used to control people through fear and used to extort huge sums of money from common folk.

That is why man created the hellfire myth.

Hell-fire is not a Bible teaching.

"The living are conscious that death will come to them, but the dead are not conscious of anything"- Eccls.9:5, Bible in Basic English. The dead do not suffer or feel pain.

"...for in the grave (sheol), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom"- Eccls.9:10 NIV.

Everlasting life is granted only to righteous people. As for the wicked- "for dust you are and to dust you will return"- Gen.3:19.
---David8318 on 11/22/12


Hell '...a place where God will show Justice.'- MarkV

MarkV calls it Justice! Is it just to send someone to burn for all eternity because of inherited sin? Whats the life span of a human? 70/80 years? And MarkV says God will mercilessly punish someone for all eternity, not just 70 or 80 years but ALL ETERNITY in hell and for being sinful for 70/80 years! What a wicked horrible god MarkV promotes.

Talk about Justice, in Jehovah God's court of law, 'the wages sin pays is death' (Ro.6:23) not eternal punishment.

God's law states- 'For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin'- Ro.6:7.

A far cry from MarkV un-just god. Thankfully, the un-just god MarkV believes is not the God of love spoken of in the Bible.
---David8318 on 11/21/12


Christan- if you want to believe the Lake of Fire is literal, be my guest.

You must also believe the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' is also literal. Perhaps you've seen it in a zoo somewhere!?

Your misrepresentation of the Bible is clearly apparent in your misuse of scriptures at Isaiah 45:7 and Job 2:10. Miesrepresentation which you are unable to refute. You now also misrepresent Jesus Christ.

'Hell' maybe mentioned in your mis-translation, but in reality, Jesus never used the word Hell. Jesus used the word 'Gehenna'. The translators of your Bible use the word 'Hell' to fool simple minded folk into believing man-made myths such as hell-fire.

I deny hell because it's not a Bible teaching.
---David8318 on 11/21/12


'But care must be taken not to over-spiritualize'- Phil.

Yes true Phil, but one must also be careful not to 'over-literalise'. As I pointed out previously, if you believe the Lake of Fire is literal, you must therefore believe the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' is also literal. This is the 'wild beast' described at Rev.13:1. This 'wild beast' is also cast into the lake of fire- Rev.20:10.

Do you Phil believe the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' to be a literal creature?

The '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' and the 'false prophet' are symbolic of satanic organisations. They are not literal 'beasts' anymore than the Lake into which they are hurled. The Lake of Fire simply symbolises complete destruction.
---David8318 on 11/21/12


David, you are no better than the Pharisees Christ was rebuking and calling, "hypocrites, brood of vipers". In one breath you hypocritically say God created everything and then proceeded to say "He didn't create hell-fire".

Make up your mind! Go learn the meaning of "God created everything". If it's with exception and that's according to your understanding, then "everything" cannot be applied in the context of who God is. Remember, He's God Almighty and John declared, "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

I'll put my heart and soul that this includes hell and the reprobates!
---christan on 11/21/12




David, God created everything. Many of the things He created are not listed. But it is there, Jesus mentioned it many times, a place where God will show Justice.
Almost, all the teachings of hell come from the lips of Jesus. You imply Jesus was lying.
Opposers of hell, have pushed the limits of "minimizing hell" in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesus own teachings. The Bible describes hell in many different ways. These graphic images of eternal punishment brings the question if the are literally or merely symbols? Even if they are symbols it is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal place to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire.
---Mark_V. on 11/21/12


"Hell-fire is not a Bible teaching. The 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of complete destruction. If you want to believe it is literal..." David

Hell is "not a Bible teaching"? Wow, that's new. Hell's mentioned no less than 23 times in the NT, of which Christ mentioned it about 18 times. So all of a sudden, your teachings supersedes Christ?

How's the "lake of fire" symbolic anyways? Isn't it a spiritual (eternal) place of punishment and torment as taught by Christ?

I hope you do realise that your denial of hell isn't going to change God's mind about where He's sending the reprobates.
---christan on 11/21/12


\\The KJV renders Sheol as 'hell', 'the grave' and 'the pit'. Hades as both 'hell' and 'the grave'. \\

And how does the KJV render "gehenna," David?

I really doubt that the Old Germans (or English) talked about "helling potatoes" before discovery of North America, because potatoes are not native to Europe.

BTW, I noticed that you never answered my question whether you think "indulgences" are connected with giving the priest money to pray people out of hell.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/20/12


The 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of complete destruction.
---David8318 on 11/20/12

I am rewarded by your insistence on the eternal torment doctrine as being myth. So it is.

The Unveiling of Jesus Christ is filled with figures and symbols. But care must be taken not to over-spiritualize.

It is in fact a physical lake of fire, and will mercifully, instantly, near- to painlessley kill all who are cast into it.

It is not a figure or symbol. It is death by intense fire.

Scripture does not state how long it exist. But Christ abolishes it entirely at some point. 1C 15:26

When all are made alive in Christ [1C 15:22], death will cease to exist.
---Phil on 11/21/12


MarkV you've completely lost the plot. I've not ascribed any scripture to your pagan hell-fire. I'm happy defending the Bible against your mythological hell-fire. I know hell means 'the grave', thats the point I was making. Why do you keep pushing the idea its a place of eternal torment? Nothing has been said about 'David' (??)

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."- Gen.1:1.

"...and hell!" shouts MarkV.

Hell-fire is not a Bible teaching. The 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of complete destruction. If you want to believe it is literal then you must believe in a literal '7 headed, 10 horned wild beast' and that wicked spirit beings can be affected by literal fire- Rev.20:10.
---David8318 on 11/20/12




David, it's seriously useless for you to quote Scriptures and yet deny that God created everything, including hell and the reprobates "fitted for destruction" or as Scripture calls, "The Lake of Fire".

---christan on 11/19/12

Yet we know noone YET is in any lake of fire. That would be condemning those to final judgement before one is judged.

They at least have their trial day at the Great White Throne.

God CREATED the Angels and hell was CREATED for them, however God did not CREATE any man but Adam, and either hell existed already before man was created when the Angels fell, OR the lake of fire has yet to exist until the end of time.

No man was CREATED as one being FITTED for destruction.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/12


He has unresolved needs to commit sadomasochistic acts.
---atheist on 11/20/12


David, I was not saying that the passages you gave were speaking of hell, you said they did. I told you the interpretation with David was the grave. Also in Acts, it referred to the grave, not hell. Get it right. When you put passages down, it is important you read the context so that you know what the writer was talking about. I was agreeing with Trey that some translations of certain words differ. And by reading the context you would know what the writer was saying.
There is a grave, there is a hell, and there is a lake of fire. Nothing you say can change that.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/12


"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."- christan quoting Jer.7:31.

Where does any of Jeremiah 7:30,31 contradict my reasoning that God finds burning people abhorrent, or an 'abomination'. This is a clear case of satan pulling the veil over christan's eyes, 'blinding the minds of unbelievers'. Unbelievers who teach God is wicked and burns people mercilessly in fire like the wicked Israelites in Jeremiah's day (2 Cor.4:4).

Christan's wicked pagan teaching of hell-fire and his attempts to sully God's love with it is sure to catch up with him.
---David8318 on 11/20/12


"...translators of the King James... knew exactly what they were doing when they interpreted shol as hell or interpreted it othe places as the grave."- trey.

Yes trey, they were purposely inconsistent. The KJV renders Sheol as 'hell', 'the grave' and 'the pit'. Hades as both 'hell' and 'the grave'. Yes words in English have different meanings. But I don't believe that to be so with Sheol or Hades.

KJV translators and others inconsistently mis-translate these words in the appropriate passages to promote the pagan hell-fire doctrine.

The word 'hell' is from the word 'helan' meaning 'to cover'. The saying 'helling potatoes' meant, not to roast them, but to place the potatoes in the ground.
---David8318 on 11/20/12


Again christan isolates Is.45:7, 'I create evil' and then asks, 'What did Job say to his wife? "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?'.

Honestly, christans misunderstanding of the scriptures is for all to see! Does christan not understand who was 'creating' that 'evil' for Job? It wasn't God, it was Satan! God doesn't bring evil to anyone- 'For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone'- Js.1:13.

Its clearly evident christan simply does not know what he is talking about. Christan misrepresents Isaiah as he does Job. Christan misrepresents the Bible but more seriously misrepresents God. Like the 'evil' meted out to Job, so too the evil hell-fire is from Satan.
---David8318 on 11/20/12


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No where in scripture does it teach sinners are kept alive to burn mercilessly in fire---David8318 on 11/20/12

The misconception that life exists beyond death comes from Satan. So, too, those who believe the second death of Revelations is somehow transmuted into life, are deluded by this same Adversary.

Though such a false belief is not transgression, it nonetheless hinders light from finding place in the heart and mind.

Blessed are those who know the God of Scripture, Who is just and fair, and will have all men to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth.
---Phil on 11/20/12


Christan- you base your understanding of Isaiah 45:7 and Rev.4:11 on your false presupposition that a place exists where sinners are given eternal life to burn forever. You can't show where Isaiah is teaching your hell-fire myth. You isolate Is.45:7, take it out of context and twist it to suit your hell-fire doctrine.

Yes God created everything. But he didn't create hell-fire. No where in scripture does it teach sinners are kept alive to burn mercilessly in fire. This is a pagan doctrine and not from God.

Jeremiah 7:31, burning people is abhorrent to God.

Romans 6:7, at death a sinner is 'acquitted' of his sin. Christan believes the dead continue to pay for their sins in hell! I know who is right, and its not christan!
---David8318 on 11/20/12


David, once again, this is what Isaiah 45:7 declares, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Is "I create evil" with exceptions or without exceptions? Be reminded He is God "who created everything". What did Job say to his wife? "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" At this point of Job's confession, he had lost everything including his children and wealth but not his life. Don't you think you sound like Job's wife?

So, what beholds Hades or the Lake of Fire? Good or evil?
---christan on 11/20/12


---trey on 11/19/12

Not to take away from your point, but consider that
since the King James Bible was issued in 1611, some forty new dictionaries have been issued to keep pace with the growth and changes in the English language.

The English and American revision committees made 36,191 changes rectifications of the King James Version that more closely conform to the original, after which President Schaff said the work was still far from perfect!

The KJV translators did their best, but they were not inspired by God. They were beholden to the King.

Today, knowledge of the Greek and its vocabulary is well understood. Not so when the KJV was formed. Few knew what we know today.
---Phil on 11/19/12


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MarkV- you nor christan can show where Isaiah teaches your false hell-fire doctrine. Isaiah chapters 44 & 45 contain prophecies of what will happen to Israel by Babylon and how God will eventually deal with Babylon. The passages have nothing to do with your false hell-fire doctrine.

Is.45:9 describes 'woe' for those Israelites who disagree with what God foretells. It has nothing to do with keeping sinners alive to burn in hell-fire. You twist the scripture to suit your own ideas.

You say I struggle with truth, I say you struggle to accept truth. Bottom line however is the fact that Isaiah does not teach sinners are sent to hell-fire. Hellfire and evolution myths are the driving forces behind atheism.
---David8318 on 11/20/12


Brother Trey, very good points you gave concerning the words in Scripture. I suppose anyone who wants to argue against the word of God can choose what they want to just to argue against hell. (Job 14:13) says
"Oh, that you would hide me in the grave, that you would conceal me until Your wrath is past" Job asked to die and remain in the grave until God's anger was over, then be raised to life again, when God called him back (v. 13-15). If he were dead God would not be watching every step, counting every sin (v.16).
In Act 2:27) the word is hades. The N.T. equivalent of the O.T. grave or sheol. Though sometimes it identifies hell (Matt. 11:23) but here it refers to the general place of the dead.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/12


David is partially right. The Old Testament Saints, up until the very Resurrection of YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST), all went to Hell (Hades, Sheol) at their Deaths. But, Hell, at that time, consisted of both "Paradise" AND the "Hell's side of Torments", but, there was a Chasm of sorts which divided the two sections. That is why YAHUSHUA mentioned "Life after Death" as He did in the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in LUKE 16. Life after Death WAS how it's depicted in LUKE 16. But, when Christ ascended, from that point on, all Saints, and Paradise itself, were taken up to the Third Heaven. So, nowaday, all Saints go directly up to Heaven, instead of below in Sheol. And, ALL of Sheol is now exclusively Torments.
---Gordon on 11/20/12


David, your understanding of Jeremiah 7:31 is totally erroneous. Jeremiah was rebuking Israel for the abominations they did before God Almighty, to which the prophet declared that they were warned against. You have cunningly edited the context to suit your wicked heart of denying that God created hell.

"For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."


You're not even close at all.
---christan on 11/20/12


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David, have you ever considered that the translators of the King James scriptures knew exactly what they were doing when they translated the words we read the way they did? These men were extremely knowelgeable and were experts in the field of linguistics. I truly believe that they knew exactly what they were doing when they interpreted shol as hell or interpreted it othe places as the grave.

Even in our laguage today there are words that have two different meanings. Examples:
gay, straight, cool, hot, dope, might, ect.

Do you see my point?
---trey on 11/19/12


David, it's seriously useless for you to quote Scriptures and yet deny that God created everything, including hell and the reprobates "fitted for destruction" or as Scripture calls, "The Lake of Fire".

Are you that ignorant that what John declared ""Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAS CREATED ALL THINGS, and FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED." Revelation 4:11 is with exceptions?

If it was with exceptions, the Scripture would have said so and Paul wouldn't have said, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God...", specifically meant for the likes of you.
---christan on 11/19/12


Job 14:13, Dy: '[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell*, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?' God himself said that Job was 'a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad'- Job 1:8. (*'The grave' KJV, 'Sheol' AS, RS, NE, JB)

Acts 2:25-27, KJV: 'David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ]... Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell*, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption'. The fact that God did not 'leave' Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time. (*'Hell' Dy, 'Hades' AS, RS, JB).

Upright people went to 'Sheol'/'Hades' (hell)- it is not a place of fiery eternal torment.
---David8318 on 11/19/12


David, you gave (Isa. 45:7) and tell us you have the right meaning and everyone else is wrong. But you are wrong, because the passages in (Isa. 45) God is talking about who He is and giving a description of what He has created and what He has formed and will do. But many, like you, Kathr struggle to except the Truth. You say, no, God should be good always. He would never create darkness or calamity. He says He does. What you forgot was (v. 45:9).
"Woe to him who strives with his Maker. Let the potsherd strive with the potsherd of the earth. Shall the clay say to Him who form it, What are you making?" You question the work of God. Your struggle is with the Lord. You created your own god, to do what you believe is right.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/12


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Kathr point is valid- the Bible does not teach God created a place where sinners are kept alive to suffer eternal damnation. Neither does the Bible tell us when such a place was created.

Christan uses Isaiah 45:7 to suggest God created hell because it states here God 'created evil'. Is the 'evil' at Is.45:7 synonymous with punishing sinners eternally?

Isaiah never spoke of hell, neither was he referring to hell at 45:7. Context shows it was Babylon God was 'creating evil' for... not sinners (Is.44:27-45:6).

If hell-fire promoters use Is.45:7, I certainly will defend God's love by citing Jeremiah 7:31, where regarding the burning of people God states it was '...something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind'- NIV.
---David8318 on 11/19/12


"ALL THINGS were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAS CREATED ALL THINGS, and FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED." Revelation 4:11
---christan on 11/19/12


A couple verses to think on:

Mt25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Note the word prepared.

John1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Not sure when he made it, but does it really matter???
---trey on 11/19/12


It does not matter a whole lot "when" Hell was created. We simply know that GOD DID have Hell created. That it is GOD's Judgment on the Rebellious.
---Gordon on 11/19/12


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hypocrite..accusations...Whatever your faith is, it isn't even close to Christianity.
---christan on 11/19/12

Deflection is not a skill, it is a weakness.

I pointed out the facts, supplied evidence, and have criticism and derision as your response.

Your inability to provide appropriate answers without maligning someone is becoming your trademark.

You seek your own, and not the good of others.

However, the tension you provide does create a forum for earnest and sincere students, and that is good.
---Phil on 11/19/12


"The Greeks had no word for eternity."?? ETERNITY: Greek, Adialeiptos, continual, without ceasing.The Sciptures speak of eonian life. Where Is that word in Sciptures? Only one refrence please! Aion: Greek, everlasting.. HADES: Greek, grave, hell. TATARUS: Greek, cast down to hell. Greek, GEHENNAH: Greek, hell fire.Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of GEHENNAH hell?

---J_Marc on 11/19/12


Markv, can you show us in scripture WHEN HELL was created? Was it during thefirst 6 days? Or before the 6 day creation? Or after the 6 day creation?

Did God create hell during the first 6 days and then say that too was GOOD?

Oh, I don't doubt the existance of Hell. Don't get me wrong.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/12


Phil, aren't you a hypocrite then. If words like "eternal, everlasting, and for ever" are added to the Word via translation", according to you, why do you even quote from the English version of Scriptures?

Based on your accusations that these are added words, why do you even bother to write in English since your "faith" in the Greek version is the only accurate one?

Thank God Almighty "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" in His Son Jesus Christ and not in the Greek version of Scripture.

Whatever your faith is, it isn't even close to Christianity.
---christan on 11/19/12


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Pat, God did create hell, as we all who studied Scripture know. It is found many times in the very words of Jesus. Anyone with any spiritual truth knows that Jesus was one Person who mentioned hell and the lake of fire more times then anyone. Everything that God creates has a purpose. From all eternity God knew who was going there and how many. Anyone denying the lake of fire is a fool. They can come out with every excuse that there is no lake of fire, but nothing changes the facts. Jesus speaks the truth for He is the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/12


"Studying the word of God requires honesty." Phil

My my, if one didn't know the Scripture, I would have gone along with your comment. You paint a picture that exalts the man rather than the Holy Spirit. Is this how Christ taught us about understanding His Word? Let's see,

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Nope, the requirement sure isn't about "honesty" but rather you MUST be "born of the Holy Spirit" first! You can load us with your Greek and all the other languages but it don't matter if you're not "born of the Spirit". Try again
---christan on 11/19/12


(a) spiritual place of eternal torment... everlasting fire...mentioned "hell" no less than 23 times...
Was Dorothy Sanders lying
---christan on 11/17/12

The Greeks had no word for eternity. It is not a Greek concept. It is theological, and rooted in philosophy.

To those who hold creeds concerning God above his revealed word, this will make no difference.

The Sciptures speak of immortality, deathlessness, and eonian life. The words "eternal, everlasting, and for ever" are added to the Word via translation.

They are incorrect and faulty renderings for H5769 owlam and G165 aion

Whoever would know the truth will find this out. Without this knowledge, spiritual growth will be hindered.
---Phil on 11/18/12


---christan on 11/17/12

Studying the word of God requires honesty. The Scriptures are not meant to be used to support our own opinions. They were revealed to demolish our human reasonings and replace them with the Divine thoughts.

Gehenna is found only in the millennial kingdom, Tartarus is a temporary prison, and hades, or the unseen, comes to a conclusion when it is cast into the lake of fire.

"Everlasting fire" is pur to aionion, it is an adjectival phrase. It is rendered eonion fire. It is for a definite period of time, and ends with the millennial age.

No knowlegable student of the Greek, saved or not, renders G166 aionios as "everlasting". Only the theologian does.
---Phil on 11/18/12


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Anything else is pettifogging.
---Cluny on 11/17/12

I would have used "niggling".
---Phil on 11/18/12


Phil, The word "Hell" is and ENGLISH WORD used by ENGLISH SPEAKERS that refers to what the Greek calls "Hades" and Hebrew calls "Sheol". But, there is more to learn about a place some refer to as merely "the grave" as if Hell ("the grave" as some say) were nothing more than a "6-foot deep hole-in-the-ground with a tombstone planted on top of it"----There is MORE TO LEARN about this "grave" if YAHUSHUA (JESUS) said that within Hell are Undying Worms and Unquenchable Fire in MARK 9. You're free to believe whatever you want, but, how about stopping the aiming of such deception towards other people?
---Gordon on 11/18/12


David, let me ask you a question:

Do you think that "indulgence" is somehow connected with people giving money to a priest to pray the departed out of hell?

Simply answer "Yes" or "No". Anything else is pettifogging.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/12


"God used hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, not "hell". His words are sure and refined." Phil

But do you agree "Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus" are pointing to a spiritual place of eternal torment, aka "everlasting fire"? Even Christ and the Scriptures mentioned "hell" no less than 23 times, so what's your problem when someone says "hell"?

Was Dorothy Sanders lying when she said "Hell was created for the devil, his angels"? It was Christ who declared "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". Matthew 25:41.

So what's "everlasting fire" to you?
---christan on 11/17/12


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\\Cluny, we all know the RCC policy on indulgence. \\

You apparently do not. When I asked you for the going rate of praying people out of hell, the best you could come up with is saying you read an article about indulgences, which you clearly did NOT read, or understand if you did read it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/12


Hawkers of RCC indulgences capitalised on the RCC belief that after death, sinners had to undergo punishment for a period of time. It was said that this time could be shortened by indulgences granted on the pope's authority in exchange for money.

Hawkers like Johann Tetzel, who acted as agent for Archbishop Albert of Mainz, carried on a booming trade selling indulgences to common people. Many viewed indulgences as an insurance against future sins. A 'get out of hell' card.

Cluny in his dishonesty wants this sordid historical fact covered up. There is not much light between the RCC and Cluny's 'unorthodox' church.

I'm bringing comfort to the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable. Finding the truth uncomfortable Cluny?
---David8318 on 11/17/12


Author Corliss Lamont, in his book 'The Illusion of Immortality':

'The religious ceremonies connected with the departed have meant untold wealth for the Church. Particularly has this been true in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths... the Catholic Church has obtained, through the granting of indulgences alone, huge sums from rich and poor alike. These indulgences, given in return for money payments provide that the soul of a deceased relative or friend be spared all or part of its destined punishment in purgatory. In Russia the Orthodox Church accumulated enormous wealth through similar intercessions on behalf of the dead.'

The man-made hell-fire doctrine is a big money spinner for false religion.
---David8318 on 11/17/12


Cluny, we all know the RCC policy on indulgence. That's not the issue.

I bear witness to what Catholics write regarding the abuse of 'indulgence' by RCC leaders. It isn't the first time RCC church leaders have abused their position- does this come as a shock to you!?

You Cluny are being dishonest in concealing what the RCC have perpetrated. You need to update your edition.

Mine under 'Indulgence' has a subheading "Abuses" and states how RCC leaders exploited the indulgence policy and "...exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next".

Can you see how dishonest you are Cluny?
---David8318 on 11/17/12


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The selling of indulgences originated during the Crusades, when they were granted to believers willing to risk their lives in a 'holy' war. Later they were extended to people offering financial support to the church. Indulgences became a convenient method of raising money for building churches and monasteries.

Dubbing indulgences "the bingo of the sixteenth century" Roland Bainton, professor of religious history says, "The noblest monuments of the Middle Ages were financed in this way."

Luther when asked to contribute money to a Roman building project retorted that the pope 'would do better to sell St. Peter's and give the money to the poor folk who are being fleeced by the hawkers of indulgences.'
---David8318 on 11/17/12


---Cluny on 11/16/12

Greek was the regional language at the time, used by everyone, the Lord as well. Aramaic was spoken, along with Hebrew. But Greek was the language in common usage during the Lord's day, and those under Roman rule were very versed in it.
---Phil on 11/17/12


Hell was created for the devil, his angels ---Dorothy_Sanders on 11/16/12

I could not locate this statement in the Bibles I have. Not even the KJV uses this statement anywhere.

It appears to be theology asserting itself over the word of God. He has not revealed that "hell was created for the devil, his angels..those who rebell(sic).. the false prophet, all those who take the mark of the beast, those who worship the beast."

Hell is a Latin word, not Greek. It came through translation, not inspiration of God. It is a false term that God never used, and has deceived as it was intended.

God used hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, not "hell". His words are sure and refined.
---Phil on 11/17/12


Phil, The Lake of Fire is mentioned a few times throughout the Book of REVELATION. And, JESUS CHRIST (YAHUSHUA) is the Author of the entire Holy Bible wherein lies that Book of REVELATION. So, in other words, YAHUSHUA also spoke of the Lake of Fire.
---Gordon on 11/17/12


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From the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia on Indulgences:

"It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin, ...it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty,....Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject."

See how you bear false witness, David8318?
---Cluny on 11/16/12


Almighty God CANNOT lie, as HE has said. Unlike man, Almighty GOD says when HE means, and HE means what HE says. If HE says that HE created ALL things, and HE did, then HE did!

Hell was created for the devil, his angels (when they rebelled and turned against The Creator, The True and Living Almighty GOD, satan became their god/father), those who rebell against Almighty GOD in disobedience to HIS Word, the beast, and the false prophet, all those who take the mark of the beast, those who worship the beast.

You may also want to read the following scriptures from the Authorized King James Version Bible.
John 1:1-3
Isaiah 45:7
Colossians 1:16
Psalm 9:17
Matthew 13:41-42
Luke 13:28
---Dorothy_Sanders on 11/16/12


\\Cluny, how can I bear false witness against Catholics when I'm quoting what Catholics write in their Catholic Encyclopedia on abuses of their 'Indulgence' policy?\\

Because you're not saying what Roman Catholic teach about this issue.

First off, indulgences were never about getting out of hell. If you had read the article completely, you would have seen that.

So the rest of what you say on the subject is wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


Cluny, how can I bear false witness against Catholics when I'm quoting what Catholics write in their Catholic Encyclopedia on abuses of their 'Indulgence' policy?

To quote your words... "DUH!!"

I'm not bearing false witness- it's what Catholics are saying! It appears some orthodox groups (rather 'false-odox') will toe the RCC party line. Some "un-orthodox" churches demand tithing among its adherents. Of course, 'un-orthodox' church leaders will no doubt make it a prerequisite for its members to tithe or else "go to hell"!

Demanding tithing, the abuse of indulgence to avoid "hell"- call it what you like. Bottom line- it's been a great money spinner for false religion.
---David8318 on 11/16/12


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"Jesus Christ while on earth never used the word "hell"". Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL fire.Look at the origins of the word! SHEOL: Heb, grave, hell, pit. HADES: Greek, grave, hell. TATARUS: Greek, cast down to hell. Greek, GEHENNAH: Greek, hell fire. Look at where it ends up! Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
---J_Marc on 11/16/12


\\Jesus Christ while on earth never used the word "hell". It is recorded by Holy Spirit and irrefutable that He used the words Gehenna, and Hades.\\

Well, DUH! He didn't use the word "Bible" either.

That's because He didn't speak English. Or much Greek, for that matter, and the word "hades" is Greek, so I doubt He said that, either.

While the KJV conflates "sheol/hades" and "gehenna" into the word "hell," which causes confusion, many modern translations distinguish the two.

In my liturgical translations (a task not unlike translating the Bible) i prefer "sheol" and "gehenna" to avoid confusion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


"Go into the firey hell" [Mat. 5:22]. Jesus preached more about hell than anyone in the Bible. Yet, His preachers are often ostracized for preaching about hell. "Soul and body in hell" [Mat. 10:28], "To be cast into hell" [Mark 9:47], "Set on fire by hell" [James 3:6]...."You serpents, you breed of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell" [Mat. 23:33]. Cross ref. [Mat. 3:7]
---pat on 11/16/12


Phil, What in the world are you talking about? Read the Book of MARK. MARK 9:43-48. What YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) said in His Native Hebrew Tongue comes out to be translated into English as "Hell". "Hell" is simply the word that we English-speakers use to refer to that place where the Damned go to after Death, where they are tormented. Why do you try to paint over the Holy Written Words of Almighty GOD with a different colour??
---Gordon on 11/16/12


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Jesus Christ while on earth never used the word "hell". It is recorded by Holy Spirit and irrefutable that He used the words Gehenna, and Hades.

He never mentioned anything of the second death, the Lake of Fire.

The misunderstanading of this comes from lack of study of the scriptures, and the desire to promote prejudice and doctrine above the Word of God.

Those who choose to hear men, and not God, on the matter, will remain ignorant.
---Phil on 11/16/12


YAHUSHUA (JESUS CHRIST) says in MATTHEW 25:41b "...Everlasting Fire, prepared for the DEvil and his angels." Yes, GOD had Hell and the Lake of Fire (two different places!), both, created and prepared. HE had them prepared, YAHUSHUA says, for Satan and his fellow evil, fallen angels. Those evil beings will spend Eternity in torments-without-end in the Lake of Fire. They know that, and, it makes them fearful and angry at the same time. Satan will soon be bound up and chained in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 Years while YAHUSHUA Ha Melech reigns on Earth in Peace. Afterwards, Satan will be temporarily loosed to form an army to fight YAHUSHUA, but, he will be plucked up and cast into the Everlasting Lake of Fire.
---Gordon on 11/16/12


Indulgences was a brainstorm idea created by Sixtus IV. He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead. Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not dreamed of. The pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead. Souls in torment for their misdemeanours could be released by his word, provided their relatives dipped into their pockets. Widows and widowers, bereaved parents spent their all trying to get their loved ones out of purgatory. Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them another. Simple people were led to believe that the Pope, or those who came to their village and sold the popes pardon, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/12


Pat, the word "hell" is always used losely by Christians when they want to talk about the Lake of fire, they just say hell. The lake of fire is very much scriptural or it would not be mentioned at all in Scripture. Jesus mentioned it or gave reference to it. No one creates a spiritual place of torment. Only God does. There is many excuses why people say they is no hell, but all the excuses will not keep them out of it. It is not what they think or believe, It is what God's word says it is. No Israelite without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will enter heaven. They need to be born of the Spirit. And those who reject Christ are not born of the Spirit. They are of the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/12


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pat: God created all things including hell. Reason is similar to why human beings created prisons.
---Adetunji on 11/16/12


The RCC changed indulgencies after Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation and then the Counter Reformation. But Indulgiences were sold to pay for ST. Peter's Cathedrial that allowed people to escape purgatory.

As for hell that was creted by the Greeks and was called Hades as both the place and the ruler. It is not from the scriptures.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/15/12


Allow me to add that in Roman Catholicism, hell, purgatory, and limbo are not the same things (or places) at all, though ignorant and ill intentioned people confuse them. (Orthodoxy believes in neither purgatory nor limbo.)

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor," applies absolutely with no exception, even if thy neighbor is Roman Catholic, David8318.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


\\From reading the Catholic Encyclopedia under 'Indulgences'.\\

Indulgences have nothing to do with prayers or mass stipends.

Indulgences can be neither bought nor sold, so you are clearly misunderstanding something.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/12


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"You know this as a fact? Or just reading anti-Catholic material?"

From reading the Catholic Encyclopedia under 'Indulgences'.

It is well documented how the RCC used their fallacious teaching of 'indulgence' to extort money from their unsuspecting flock. Like "wolves in sheep's clothing" (Mt.7:15) RCC religious leaders "exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next"- Catholic Encyclopedia.

The heinous RCC invented the hell-fire doctrine to keep people in fear and was/is used as an extortion racket.

Frank Sinatra apparently paid $100million to the RCC in the hopes of avoiding hell.
---David8318 on 11/15/12


Look at the origins of the word! SHEOL: Heb, grave, hell, pit. HADES: Greek, grave, hell. TATARUS: Greek, cast down to hell. Greek, GEHENNAH: Greek, hell fire. Look at where it ends up! Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
---J_Marc on 11/15/12


"nations that hindered or tried to harm Israel during the Great Tribulation" Patricia

What are you truly implying, "tried to harm Israel"? How? Majority of Israel doesn't even believe that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God, even at the present time. Worse still, they crucified the Son of Glory.

You'll have a rude awakening to truly find out how many Israelites will be going through the broad gate come Judgement Day. Remember, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
---christan on 11/15/12


"Did God create hell?" No. Hell, as the state and place of the dead, as well as the physical, mental and/or emotional torment and anguish of the living, is simply a by product of sin and death. Not to be confused with the lake of fire which was indeed "prepared for the devil and his angels."
---Josef on 11/14/12


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---christan on 11/14/12 ""ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3 - this is without exception which includes the Lake of Fire and Death."

You quote right well, and apprehend what few will ascribe to God.

That a God Who is love, should be the Creator of evil as well as good, does not sit well with the majority.

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Job sets us straight:

Jb 2:10 What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
---Phil on 11/14/12


God Prepared Hell for the Devil

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand (the goat nations), Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (nations that hindered or tried to harm Israel during the Great Tribulation):
---Patricia on 11/14/12


"ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3 - this is without exception which includes the Lake of Fire and Death.

Why? That He may demonstrate His wrath over evil. Paul explicitly declares, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

How else does One demonstrate His power over evil but to create evil and destroy it? God declared, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things... he hath established it, he created it not in vain" Isaiah 45:7,18
---christan on 11/14/12


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