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Postmillennial View

What is the "postmillennial" view compared to the "premillennial" view?

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 ---pat on 11/15/12
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//What body do those who believe John, Jude, James and Peter's evangel belong to?
---francis on 11/25/12//

matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I wonder why Paul wasn't included? Probably because through him Christ revealed the Body of Christ
---michael_e on 11/26/12


Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
---kathr4453 on 11/26/12


What body do those who believe John, Jude, James and Peter's evangel belong to?
---francis on 11/25/12

None of the Hebrew writers ever spoke of being members of a "body".

Jesus on earth never taught such a thing as a "body"

The body of Christ is part Paul's evangel alone. No other apostles preached or taught it.

Some Jewish believers apprehended Paul's message, and came under his heavenly apostleship.

The rest held onto the teaching of the Twelve with repentance and works, as they were taught of the Lord. Ja 2:17

Many saved Jews rejected or wrestled with Paul's gospel Ac 21:20-21 2Pt 3:16

The seeing eye, the hearing ear have a Source.
---Phil on 11/25/12


The scroll of life is Jewish.
---Phil on 11/23/12
Where does Noah, Adam, Seth all none jews fit in?
---francis on 11/24/12
Abraham was Syrian. He is the father of all who exercise faith towards God.

He was no Jew

Only those believing Paul's evangel become members of Christ's body.

---Phil on 11/24/12

Humour me as you have done so well over this thanksgiving week. What body do those who believe John, Jude, James and Peter's evangel belong to?

---francis on 11/25/12


Where does Noah, Adam, Seth all none jews fit in?
---francis on 11/24/12

Abraham was Syrian. He is the father of all who exercise faith towards God.

He was no Jew.

"Therefore [by Abraham's example] we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Ro 3:28

"for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just" Lk 14:14.

We are not the just ones of earth. We are the body of Christ, the called-out and justified ones in the heavens. Eph 2:6

Only those believing Paul's evangel become members of Christ's body.

The rest of those who died in faith will be resurrected to life in the Kingdom on earth. Ezk 37:12 Dn 12:2 Jn 5:28
---Phil on 11/24/12




The scroll of life is Jewish.
---Phil on 11/23/12

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it, and he shall be as one that is born in the land:

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:

Isaiah 56:5 I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isaiah 56:7 their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar,

Where does Noah, Adam, Seth all none jews fit in?
---francis on 11/24/12


Ps 69:22 Let their table become a trap before them, And a repayment and a snare...Let them be wiped out from the scroll of life, And let them not be written with the righteous.

Paul cites this OT passage as prophetically speaking of Israel. Ro 11:8

The scroll of life [Re 20:12] contains the names of the geneology of His chosen people, not the Gentiles.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened.

The rest of humanity is condemned out of these scrolls.

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

The scroll of life is Jewish.
---Phil on 11/23/12


Daniel 12:1 ... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
---francis on 11/22/12

Who are Daniel's people?
---Phil on 11/23/12

Daniel 12:1 ... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, EVERY ONE that shall be found written in the book.

If the name is FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK they are "Daniel's" People.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
---francis on 11/23/12


Let's too remember there will be no FLESH in Heaven.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/12

If I post this verse:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Where Jesus after returning to heaven 3 days after his death, met with his disciples, and stated clearly that he was not a spirit, but rather flesh and bone, how would you rephrase your statement seeing that Jesus after his resurrection and ascending to his Father insisted that he was flesh and bone and did live in heaven?
---francis on 11/23/12


Daniel 12:1 ... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
---francis on 11/22/12

Who are Daniel's people?

Israelites, indeed.

The resurrection to eonian life, life for the age when Christ is on earth among His people, was promised in Jn 6:40

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

This resurrection is on earth, it is not translation into the heavens, in clouds, which is the resurrection the body of Christ experiences.
---Phil on 11/23/12




This does not happen in heaven, but just before the earth is recreated. The righteous shall be witness to the destruction of the wicked
---francis on 11/22/12

I find this strange. You say this verse does not occur in heaven, but the whole passage starts with these verses:

Rev 20:6-7 "...but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are completed..."

Which you say occurs in heaven. Strange. The Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39 is shown following the verses on the reign of Jesus. Both events are foretold in Scripture and both occur on Earth.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/23/12


---kathr4453 on 11/22/12

I gave TWO other passages. In both other passages it is the same, the righteous are witness to the destruction of the wicked which happen ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH and not in heaven

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh,..all that do wickedly,...shall burn..up,..And ye shall tread down the wicked,...

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of a THE SAINTS about, and the BELOVED CITY: and FIRE CAME DOWN from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM

now can you see how the righteous "shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me" Isaiah 66:24
---francis on 11/22/12


23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.


Let's too remember there will be no FLESH in Heaven. Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is Heaven itself, in contrast to the earthly Kingdom reign where flesh will dwell for 1000 years, then satan is loosed upon flesh. The war of God and Magog. No such wars will take place AFTER the New Heaven and Earth.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/12


kathr4453 on 11/22/12

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:

Malachi 4:1... the day that cometh shall burn them up...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This does not happen in heaven, but just before the earth is recreated. The righteous shall be witness to the destruction of the wicked
---francis on 11/22/12


Isaiah 66:23,24 must include 22 which says, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain."

The "new heavens and the new earth" does not exist until after God destroys this present fallen world as prophesied in 2 Peter 3. That will be fulfilled.

Verse 23 speaks specifically of the saints in heaven (aka new earth) for they were "worshipping before God". When Isaiah said "shall all flesh", it simply means God's elect, period. It does not include "the whole world". For verse 24 speaks of the reprobates final condemnation in the Lake of Fire.
---christan on 11/22/12


Daniel 12:1 and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So here we see that the resurrection happens after the tribulation or rather the rapture brings and end to the tribulation

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 resurrection, and rapture occur at the same,

So NO pre-trib rapture, all who are in the book of life are

2 Thessalonians 2:8 Wicked shall be consumed with the brightness of his ( SECOND) coming:
---francis on 11/22/12


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Jeremiah 4:23

"without form and void"

Interesting Genesis 1:2. "Without form and void" describes the condition of the earth, And uses these same words as the result of judgment Jer 4:24-26 Isa 24:1.

AND we see in Isaiah 66, LIVE AFTER JUDGEMENT, BUT WHERE?

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
(remember no sun or moon in heaven)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:((REALLY, IN HEAVEN? no way!)) for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/12


//No such thing as a pre-trib rapture or after trib millennium.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/20/12 //
Any scripture to back your thoughts?
---michael_e on 11/21/12


---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12
Valid question

There are three grops mentioned in the 1000 year reign
1: the saint
2: the dead who will not be saved
3: Satan

Satan is bound, for 1000 years meening he is left here on earth, with no one to tempt
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void, and the heavens, and they [had] no light...I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

As soon as the 1000 years are over and the evil dead aruse satan goes back to work


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
---francis on 11/21/12


"What seems strange to me is that some people hold to one or the other of these views as though their salvation depends on it." Rod4Him

"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come."

You seriously think what you believe has no bearings on your salvation? It's like saying you can go to Christ by your own free-will and Christ teaches otherwise in John 6:44,65 and yet say, "as though their salvation depends on it."

You better believe that one's salvation depends on what one believe, or you're no better than a heathen.
---christan on 11/21/12


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This tells us what happens to Satan for 1000 years , not what happens to jesus and the saints who reign with him for 1000 years
---francis on 11/19/12

I must ask you again, what is God's purpose in binding Satan for 1000 years? It is mentioned in the same passage as the 1000 year reign of Jesus. It must be related somehow, unless you believe it is just thrown in there by accident.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert, go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not.

You see how easily some will be deceived to think that Jesus has started a 1000 year reign on earth? Some will say he is in the desert or in a secret place in Israel, and some will go and follow. How many people in our lifetimes have claimed to be Jesus and haev followers?

Every deception can cause lose of life, and false doctrine can cause lose of life

That is why we must endure sound doctrine and not deceived
---francis on 11/20/12


I do agree that especially at this very time there will be deception like never before.

The anti-christ is who will set up his mock of Christ sitting in the temple as though he were God, as Paul warns of in Thesselonians.

Paul too warns that those who have rejected the love of God , God will send strong delusions to believe the lie.

the Anti-Christ will make a false peace with Israel for 3 1/2 years where most everyone will worship him.

Then all heck will break out. Those who come against Israel as we see in Zechariah 12, those nations round about will be those who too experience the wrath of God.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/12


What seems strange to me is that some people hold to one or the other of these views as though their salvation depends on it.
---Rod4Him on 11/20/12
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Every lie, every incorrect doctrine, can lead to deception, and lose of souls.

---francis on 11/20/12


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---christan on 11/20/12
I think this is your missunderstanding. I have never said that christ will rule the earth for 1000 years.
I have always said that the reign mention in the bible is 100 years when the saints reign as judged IN HEAVEN not on earth

Now concerning the saints returning to earth with the new jerusalem:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.


Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,

Matthew 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
---francis on 11/20/12


\\=Did you know christan, scripture tells us WE The CHRUCH will reign and rule with Christ at that time. We will have been raptured and made like Christ to rule with Him. \\

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture or after trib millennium.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/20/12


---kathr4453 on 11/20/12

Paul, our apostle, revealed the consummation of all things in the plan of God.

John the Revelator was allowed to see the end of the ages for Israel. It did not encompass all that Paul was shown.

To have this knowledge, that God will become All in all, is the venue for understanding much of the deep things of God.

I applaud your advancement.
---Phil on 11/20/12


Did you know christan, scripture tells us WE The CHRUCH will reign and rule with Christ at that time. We will have been raptured and made like Christ to rule with Him. Might want to read the 7 letters in Revelation. It's clearly there. and also at the end of Rev. Those who have part in teh first resurrection will reign and rule with Christ 1000 years.

Satan will be BOUND, as satan hades and death have not yet been thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the last dispensation. A despensation of Kingdom LAW clearly taught in Matthew.

1st Cor 15 again clarify He must Reign until all enemies are put under Him, Death is that last enemy.

THEN all will be delivered "UP TO" the Father that God will be all in all.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/12


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Whether one believes in pre, post, or amillenial, how does that change how one should live in Christ Jesus? Be ready for His return and the final judgment regardless which view one holds to.

What seems strange to me is that some people hold to one or the other of these views as though their salvation depends on it.

I remember one Bible professor saying he didn't believe a person was saved unless he believed the pre-trib rapture...strange thinking.
---Rod4Him on 11/20/12


"In which of my post did I say that christ "un-glorify Himself to dwell on the fallen world again?" francis

By your understanding that Christ is returning to rule this earth for a physical thousand years. And that's why dispensation theology like the one you are advocating is truly saying.

Didn't you also say "After this 1000 years the saints come down to earth in the new jerusalem"

Why would the saints who's been freed from the curse of the law and resting in the bosom of Abraham, "come down to earth in the new jerusalem"??? What kind of a mongrelic kingdom is that? Spirit and sinful flesh mingling together.
---christan on 11/20/12


being already GLORIFIED, why would He un-glorify Himself to dwell on the fallen world again?
---christan on 11/19/12

In which of my post did I say that christ "un-glorify Himself to dwell on the fallen world again?"

I do not remembet that one please post it for me
---francis on 11/20/12


Zechariah 14:

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

christan, who said anything about Jesus unglorifying Himself.

I believe this LIGHT is that of His Glory.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/12


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After this 1000 years the saints come down to earth in the new jerusalem
---francis on 11/19/12

Why do you refuse to see these words in the verses?

Rev 20:4-5 "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection ."

These words are not accidental. We come to life on Earth. Jesus demonstrated resurrection on Earth.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


francis, your understanding of the thousand years makes not sense whatsoever. Here's why:

- Christ died and rose from the dead, it's been recorded in the Scriptures
- which means He's already GLORIFIED by the Father, which will be the final stage for His saints when He next returns
- being already GLORIFIED, why would He un-glorify Himself to dwell on the fallen world again?

JMarc provided you Revelation 20:6 which points to the spiritual rather than the physical and that's because Christ is already ruling from "above" - "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure." Psalm 2:4,5
---christan on 11/19/12


Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIEST of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.
---J_Marc on 11/19/12
Good job
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

what activities do these tell us about
---francis on 11/19/12


If Jesus does not reign on Earth for the 1000 years, what is the purpose in these verses?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12

This tells us what happens to Satan for 1000 years , not what happens to jesus and the saints who reign with him for 1000 years

Other passages tell us that the dead did not live again for 1000 years, does not tell us what the saints and Jesus do for 1000 years

Only ONE verse tell us that, it it says that drring this 1000 years judgment was given to the saints. After this 1000 years the saints come down to earth in the new jerusalem
---francis on 11/19/12


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No there are NOT valid opinions.
---francis on 11/19/12

If Jesus does not reign on Earth for the 1000 years, what is the purpose in these verses?

Rev 20:2 "And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed"

You see, Jesus will reign on Earth for the 1000 years and Satan has no place during that reign. The verses say that the nations would not be deceived. The nations are on the Earth, unless you believe Satan will deceive us in heaven?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12


"Rev20,4 There are NO OTHER VERSES about 1000 year reign." Sorry here is another one!
Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIEST of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.
---J_Marc on 11/19/12


Are you saying that it will take Christ to judge this world in 1000 years?
---christan on 11/19/12
Like I said, there are MANY verses about the judgment,and one can look them up and argue about the nature of the judgment, But ONLY ONE SINGLE VERSE about the 1000 years and it is linked to judgment



There are many valid opinions about this, ---Rod4Him on 11/19/12
No there are NOT valid opinions. There is ONLY ONE SINGLE VERSE in all the bible about the 1000 years, and that ONE AND ONLY SINGLE verse talks about judgment in those 1000 years.

If there were any other verses about 1000 year reign, there may be other valid opinion, but just ONE SINGLE VERSE so no valid opinions can be suported by other scriptures
---francis on 11/19/12


"It opened wide the gates of mercy for all." Phil

And yet multitudes are in Hades waiting to be cast into the lake of fire. What happened to your "mercy for all"???

"He failed to fulfill prophecy [Mt 1:21] while in flesh by reason of Israel's stubbornness."

Failed? "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.: John 19:28,30

What a blatant liar you're turning out to be!
---christan on 11/19/12


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Revelation 20:6 - IS the Thousand years Figurative or Literal ------- ?

NO were does it say in - Rev :20 - that this thousand year is on Earth.

AND The people with Christ in this Thousand years have Been beheaded.

Figurative

Psalm 50,10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

2 Peter 3:8 BUT , beloved , ne not ignorant of this one thing, that One day with the Lord as Thousand years, and a Thousand year as a day.
---RICHARDC on 11/19/12


"Are you saying that it will take Christ to judge this world in 1000 years?" ---christan on 11/19/12

The world during Christ's reign is still under malignant influences.

Even with His presence on earth, hearts remain unchanged [Re 20:8].

The nations obey out of fear of reprisal of the Lion and His people.

They are also beholden to God's people for all that is good and just. [Re 22:2]

Satan is released after the thosand years [Re 20:3]. There are still principalities operating on earth unsubmitted to God during Christ's reign.

It the final demostration of the nations rejection of Messiah and His people, and the proof that apart from God indwelling us, there is no rule possible.
---Phil on 11/19/12


Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



We do see as Mark_Eaton pointed out many OT promises of the earthly Kingdom reign, and know that these verses are not heaven itself. Zechariah 14 at the end speaks of coming from one moon to the next..Colossians confirms that this is a shadow of things TO COME. and the consequences of those who refuse to come and WORSHIP. Will the New Heaven and Earth still have rebellion? or a threat to those who rebel? NO!

Whereas Rev states clearly IN HEAVEN there will be no sun or moon at all. And christan, it's because God PROMISED unconditionally He would reign and sit upon the Throne of David. NO THRONE IN HEAVEN is named after a mortal man.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/12


"So we can k ow with 100% certainty that this 1000 years reign is a reign of judgment." francis

The "we" obviously does not include everyone but only yourself. And it takes "1000 years reign is a reign of judgment"? Talk about controversy!

Are you saying that it will take Christ to judge this world in 1000 years? You make no sense at all if that's what you're trying to say. Why? Christ declared,

"Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more, Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:10,11

This world and everyone is already "JUDGED", past-tensed!
---christan on 11/19/12


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Dispensation theology..says His previous mission was incomplete and a failure.---christan on 11/17/12

His mission, as a demonstration, was a complete success. It opened wide the gates of mercy for all.

He failed to fulfill prophecy [Mt 1:21] while in flesh by reason of Israel's stubbornness. The prophecy will be fulfilled at His coming again.

Acts is the record of Israel's failure, not the beginning of todays ecclesia, the body.

The body of Christ is formed outside the Land, outside the arena of God's promises to Israel. It could have been no other way.
---Phil on 11/19/12


//So we can k ow with 100% certainty that this 1000 years reign is a reign of judgment.//

Actually, one can not "know with 100% certainty." If this were true, there wouldn't be a discussion about it.

There are many valid opinions about this, one being that Revelation is an Apocalyptic book, painting a picture of worship, a cosmic battle of right and wrong, and final judgement, and using many similes, metaphores, and illustrations to paint that picture.
---Rod4Him on 11/19/12


francis, when Jesus spoke, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." What's this symbolic of? That there are "worms and fire" in hell or is He painting a picture of "eternal damnation and torment"? Go figure...

Heaven is perfect and Christ is ruling from His throne, why would He need to return to this fallen world to rule it physically for 1,000 years? Scripture says the next time Christ returns, it's Judgement Day and this world will face the wrath of God.

Whereas, you and the many dispensation theorists has Christ returning more that once - which is completely unscriptural.
---christan on 11/18/12


Of all the " controversial" teachings in the bible, this is one of the easiest to understand. There is ONLY ONE SINGLE MENTION of 1000 year reign in ALL OF THE BIBLE
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

So we can k ow with 100% certainty that this 1000 years reign is a reign of judgment.

There are NO OTHER VERSES about 1000 year reign.

There are several about " the judgment" and we can study those to find out the nature of this 1000 years of judgment, but nothing else except this judgment is spoken of through the bible
---francis on 11/19/12


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"7" is shevah from the root savah, to be full or satisfied, have enough of. Hence the meaning of the word "seven" is dominated by this root, for on the seventh day God rested from the work of Creation, full,complete,good and perfect. Nothing could be added to it or taken from it without marring it.

In scripture:

Seven occurs 287 times, .

"Seventh," the fractional part, occurs 98 times,.

"Seven-fold," occurs 7 times.

"Seventy" occurs 56 times,.

"Seventy," occurs 35 times

It is, however, when we come to consider these verses the true glories of its spiritual meaning of perfection are revealed.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/12


What is even more important is Jesus Christ Himself is a perfect 7. Christan stated all scripture from Genesis to rev is about Jesus. Well, we agree that MOST IS. And all those 7's point to Jesus including teh Sabbath rest. Those IN CHRIST are a perfect 7 because they have entered into HIS REST.

Rev contrasts 666 as that SHORT OF 7. Totally falling short of 7 and compares 6 to the Anti-christ and all who follow him. Notice the verse:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/12


"no one has yet to say what happens after the 1000 years reign ON EARTH"2nd Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.2nd Peter 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
---J_Marc on 11/19/12


The number 7 is that of perfection.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/12

"one thousand years" is symbolic of "PERFECTION"
---christan on 11/17/12

kathr4453 Give ONE scripture for 7 is number of perfection
christan Give ONE scripture for 1000 is symbolic of perfection

This is the ONLY passage about 1000 year reign:
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This judgment takes place BEFORE the saint inherit the earth
---francis on 11/18/12


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Christan, 1000 is not symbolic for perfection. Please find some backup scripture for that

The number 7 is that of perfection.

Secondly, to accuse one of saying Jesus ministry on earth was a failure, is actually off the wall.

The Promise of the Glorified that would be one who died and rose again is who OT Prophesied to be the Glorified KING during the 1000 years. Zechariah 12-14.

How could Zechariah 12-14 ( "and they look upon Him who they pierced and mourned" etc ever be fulfilled if Jesus first advent, (that is born of a Virgin resulted in His being made King then?
---kathr4453 on 11/18/12


francis, the "one thousand years" is symbolic of "PERFECTION" and not literal. And where can you find "perfection" but only in the Kingdom of God?

If it was literal then Christ's time spent on earth during His ministry was a failure and achieved nothing. But that's definitely not true, for before He gave up His own spirit, He proclaimed, "IT IS FINISHED." Meaning, His mission was complete and He fulfilled His Father's will of "saving His people from their sins.".

Dispensation theology contradicts and says His previous mission was incomplete and a failure.
---christan on 11/17/12


\\Before the Gods Kingdom on earth is restored during the 1000 year reign of the Lord on earth from Jerusalem,\\

The context of the passage in Rev. 20 about the millennium makes it plain that this reign is taking place in HEAVEN, and not on anywhere on earth.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/12


no one has yet to say what happens after the 1000 years reign ON EARTH
Does Jesus stop reigning?
do the saints stop reigning?

Jesus reigns forever as King
The saints will live ( reign) on earth for ever

There is a 1000 year period where the saints are seen with Jesus in heaven, on thrones and JUDGMENT is given to the saints the reign with Jesus as Judges

when this 1000 years reign is over, then the new Jerusalem comes down and the dead who are not saved will be resurrected to the white throne judgment
---francis on 11/17/12


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Does Bible says "rapture" or "glorification"? Dispensation theology is from satan. These very people hypocritically declare they take the Word literally, yet they reject the literal proclamation by God "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated".

The particular "great tribulation" Christ prophesied in Matthew 24 was a particular event which has come and gone in AD70. As for Christians, we will all have our daily "trials and tribulations", which Christ graciously tells His people, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
---christan on 11/17/12


Millennial is taken from the 1000 year reign.

Before the Gods Kingdom on earth is restored during the 1000 year reign of the Lord on earth from Jerusalem, the times of sorrow 3/ 1/2 years, first by Satan, then by the Father for 1 year, at the end of the tribulation a loud trumpet sounds and the whole earth will see the Lord return with his Saints who will reign with him for 1000 years on earth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 5:10 And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
---Follower_of_Christ on 11/17/12


In all of the bible, there on only ONE SINGLE mention of events during the 1000 years and this is it:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The ONE AND ONLY event during this 1000 year is JUDGMENT

There are several mentions of the saints serving as judges ( Daniel 7:22,
1 Corinthians 6: 2-4) but only ONE combines the 1000 year reign with judgment
---francis on 11/17/12


\\//It, happens AFTER the Tribulation//
BCV please
---michael_e on 11/16/12\\

Give BCV where it happens BEFORE the tribulation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/12


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//It, happens AFTER the Tribulation//
BCV please
---michael_e on 11/16/12


\\however, so far, I believe that you are lacking.
---pat on 11/16/12\\

But I KNOW you are.

The pre-trib rapture wasn't even HEARD of until 1830 when it began being taught by Margaret MacDonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. When you know where, when, and by whom a doctrine was first taught, it's usually wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


Why doesn't it cluny? I am open to your thoughts on this, however, so far, I believe that you are lacking.
---pat on 11/16/12


\\The rapture of the church precedes [to go before] a literal seven year tribulation.\\

No, it doesn't.

It, happens AFTER the Tribulation.

Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do not take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

The rapturist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus. You take us out of this world."

Which prayer do you think the Heavenly Father will grant?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


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Daniel's prophecy [Dan. 9,27], a period of seven years whose latter half is the Great tribulation. The rapture of the church precedes [to go before] a literal seven year tribulation. Now that is the premillennialists view. The postmillennialist and amillennialists consider the great tribulation as a brief, indefinite period at the end of this age, usually identifying it with the revolt of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20: 8-9....I've never understood these as well as I would like!
---pat on 11/16/12


\\Luke 1:32-33 " He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."\\

But this is not a millennial earthly reign, which even millennialists agree will come to an end.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/16/12


thus, it is taking place in heaven, which is timeless, so 1000 years should not be understood in an earthly sense.
---Cluny on 11/15/12

I must disagree with this.

The Earthly reign of Jesus is seen in the OT in the books of Zechariah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Micah. In the NT, the introduction of Jesus includes a reference to His Earthly reign. The speech of Gabriel to Mary includes this:

Luke 1:32-33 " He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
---Mark_Eaton on 11/16/12


Historically Postmilleniallist believe that the Church will make the world better and better for a thousand years until JESUS comes and take over.

Premillineaial believe the world will get worse with the anitchrist winning until JESUS comes. Then then split into two camps those who believe his reign is on earth and those who believe he takes his people to heaven.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/15/12


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"According to you God made a mistake in creating this earth..." 1stCliff

"Mistake"? Unless you can produce evidence I said such a thing, you're a blatant liar just like you know who!

As for me, whatever that's happening or even had happened were all of God's perfect plan and purpose, including the fall of man right down to the crucifixion of His Son by the wicked whom He created and purposed for that reason. Right down to the day His Son will return and destroy this world with His Holy Fire as prophesied in 2 Peter 3.

Your knowledge of who you think God is supposed to be is not according to the Scripture but your perverted heart as Paul describes in Romans 1.
---christan on 11/15/12


"this reign must be taking place BEFORE the General Resurrection and the Return of Christ, thus, it is taking place in heaven, should not be understood in an earthly sense." ?? Here is what the BIBLE says!
Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,And hast made us unto our God kings and PRIESTS: and we shall REIGN on the EARTH.Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIEST of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.
---J_Marc on 11/16/12


\\I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and REIGNED WITH CHRIST a thousand years. \\

Therefore, since SOULS were seen reigning with Christ, this reign must be taking place BEFORE the General Resurrection and the Return of Christ, thus, it is taking place in heaven, which is timeless, so 1000 years should not be understood in an earthly sense.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/12


Christian, It's belief like this that shows you have no understanding at all of "the big picture"
According to you God made a mistake in creating this earth,telling Adam to populate it.Animals fish and birds as well as people created for absolutely no purpose???? My how shallow!
If God wanted people to live in heaven He would have created them just like the hundred million angels that are already there!
The sun moon and earth surve absolutely no purpose???
---1st_cliff on 11/15/12


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REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and REIGNED WITH CHRIST a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.
---J_Marc on 11/15/12


\\Nothing will be left on this physical earth when Christ returns, total destruction.
---christan on 11/15/12\\

It would be better to say "total transformation."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/12


Both are equally erroneous, for Christ declared while He was being arrested, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36 - why would He want to rule the earth for "a thousand years"?

Peter describes Christ's second-coming, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Nothing will be left on this physical earth when Christ returns, total destruction.
---christan on 11/15/12


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